that was because i was under a slightly misguided train of thought, you were corerct, noone is holding a gun to my head and saying I HAVE to fnish my degree and take these classes, i could just as well not finish my degree, noone is forcing me to do it. hence why me mentioning the "not being forced to take the classes.

[QUOTE="at0micpotato"]

[QUOTE="rawsavon"] That is pretty close to what I was going to post... 1. He is free to take only the classes he wants to take (things he is interested in) 2. If he wants a degree, then that is about meeting some standards that are not set by him...that means he has no say in what those standards are. In other words, he is not doing it for himself but for someone else. In that case, it is not about him or his wants. It is about those that set the standard and doing what they want. It is also important to note that Universities work with professional organizations in setting their standards...they are producing what employers are asking forthegerg

It's true that i have made an agreement yes to take the classes required to get a degree in my field of interest, that being said, i am required to take the courses such as social sciences, visual/performing arts, and the like, that's just something everyone has to deal with. voluntary? don't think so, if it was voluntary, i would definitely opt out of taking those classes, and only take the ones pertaining to my major, but what's stopping me from only taking engineering courses is the college, as per their requirement i HAVE to take these other courses in order to get my degree.

but as rawvason points out, those are the standards set by the industry, if they say technical majors are required to take and pass these courses to make us "well rounded", then that's how it is, meaning we have no say, meaning we have to take these pointless classes whether we want to or not, ie forced. i for one dont think ill get any benefit from reading poems/bookson shakespeare/edgar alan poe or whathaveyou and writingpages and pages of essays on them, neither will igain anything from knowing art history or how to draw. that's what the engineering design classes are for, which should be the main focus for the industry so to speak when it comes to setting curriculum standards.

again, the college itself is focusing on what the industry wants, which from my knowledge means modifying the courses for themajor to tailor the needs of the industry,because i seriously doubt a technical company/industry looking to hire engineerswould care how a philosophy/sociology/arts course is taught to them, with the exception of english composition andonly the courses pertainining to their major

I personally know an english major who's concentration is creative writing, she is taking three courses in her major, and a precalculus course to satisfy her math requirements. why on earth does she need math? let alone precalculus? to "better herself"? that's not the impression i got by the way she was grumbling about all the study time that class alone takes up in comparison with her other classes ie classes in her major. she sees it as a burden, something she has to get out of the way, not as something that will "better" herself. and that's how colleges make money, that's how the counselors and those liberal arts majors who couldn't find employments elsewhere keep getting a paycheck and stay employed, because they know people will have to take their courses whether they want to or not, ie standards set by the school. industry only cares about the courses that relate to their area of expertise.

i'm not complaining that i have to take these classes, i'm just pointing out why taking these classes are pointless and irrelevant for my major,and i definitely do not see them as something that will make me "well rounded". I'm sure liberal arts majors feel the same way about satisfying their basic math/science requirements, they hate math/science too even thought they only have to take the basic level (that's why they're majoring in the arts to begin with), but it's something they have to get through because it's in their degree plan, meaningthey have toinvest time/money into these classes.

if i could have a choice of not taking them, i wouldnt, but seeing as i have no choice, i have to take those classes as well, sure i can pick which art class, which sociology class, or which phsycology class i want to take, but either way i know it's a waste, spending hard earned money on classes i have absolutely no interest in, even if i did have a remote interest,most of the things taught in these classes one can learn by going to a library orsurfing the net anyways.

and btw by liberal arts i mean pure liberal arts such as English/History/Phsycology/Philosophy etc., don't even know why science/bio/physics/math are considered arts since theyr'e closely related and implemented into technical and science programs.

sorry for the rant, saw this thread, and just wanted to vent my frustrations about my upcoming fall mini semester, i wanted to take a graphics course, but i need to get english composition 2 out of the way first.......

and to elaborate on your point, true i am not forced to take the classes, since all i really want is to learn the classes in my major and to get my degree, but again, if i don't take those additional classes, i can't get my degree. so i have a choice here (or rather lack of): invest time/money in these useless classes (to me) from which i won't remember a thing, or i don't get my degree. pretty much saying if you choose to get your degree, which obviously who wouldn't, you have no choice but to take those courses along with it. which is fine, but still i'd much rather pay for and learn what i need to learn for my major. learning to do things that i don't wanna do can be done outside of school, as i've done many things outside of academics that i don't want to do, just didn't have to shell out as much money or invest as much time in them, and those things have had an impact on my life at the very least, in comparison with me losing time and $$$ to memorize and regurgitate something which i won't remember. if theyr'e trying to teach us a lesson, do it so that we don't waste our time and resources.

other than me losing time and $$$ to take these courses because "theyre required", i still see no point in taking them. but i'll take them nonetheless, since somehow they're a requirement to graduate.

aoplogies for the essay guys, and yes you al bring up a valid point and it seems that i can't seem to get my point across.
i have no issues with going to school and learning/studying for my major. i just consider having o take liberal arts as an unnecesary burden, but one i'm willing to undertake since it goes with my major. those rants were the result of me working on an essay while i was writing those posts. got some work done finally, and came on here, read my own posts and man are they long :o

long story short, to answer ops question, yes i personally do not like liberal arts as to me it's something i will never use, and can learn the same skills that i've learned so far without having to take those ****s, i know nothing worth gaining in life is easy, what i was trying to get across was that i dislike liberal arts, and just went on a longwinded explanataion as to why. i know i'll have to deal with it like everyone else so, just threw my 2 cents (more like 2 million cents) out there, couldve just said that from the beginning instead of going on a retarded rant :D

[QUOTE="at0micpotato"]rawsavon

agreed, college isn't supposed to be easy, and given that engineering has a decent amount of weed out courses, they don't need a class that they could care less about being another thing to worry about. as for dealing with subjects/issues/people, only dealing i've done in these classes are with the opinions of the authors and professors on their chosen subjects. and that feeling of resentment towards the subject exponentiates when you have a pressing physics exam along with a calculus midterm breathing down your neck, which is where time management/discipline comes in.

as mentioned before, my prioritizing and time management skills stemmed due to the rigorous workload of my major, whereas in contrasti've seen plenty of liberal arts majors party all day everyday, not an effective time management/study strategy in my opinion, yet they still manage to maintain a 2.5 or higher at the very least. why? because these majors don't require as much work, ie they find it easy. sure in my experience i've had to write stupidly long essays, but the reason those essays feel so rigorous, is because i have even tougher coursework to deal with in conjunction with that of liberal arts, and the liberal arts coursework is only adding to my already streineous amount of work. Dealing with authors/essay topics is MUCH different than dealing with actual people.

again, me learning to prioritize and having discipline, yes it does play a role in it, but it's a very small role, as i can acheive that same level of discipline without taking these LA classes, heck i think i could perform even better in my major if i didn't have a class i couldn't care less to stress and worry about. as for the unfair situations, i understand where you're coming from, but at the end of the day, once im into my career as an engineer, sure i may not like some tasks that may be assigned to me, but i will be more inclined/motivated to do them, i won't hate/resent them because these tasks are assigned to me by the company i'm working for, and it will have some kind of impact on the company. After all, i'm majoring in it, if i want to write essays/do research on history then i'd major in it, but again,theres a reason why i'm not.

i can completely relate this to my coursework right now, i have about three labs to submit, along with twoassignments from two different engineering classes. the professor wants the reports to be clean and tidy, with a thorough exlpanation of the concepts utilized in each of the labs. i'm overworked, yes, i have alot on my plate yes, it's unfair of the professors to demandthe quality of report that they are considering that they are all very well aware that we have other classes/labs to worry about,

but do i mind? not one bit, because this is relevant to what i'm doing, and what i eventually want to accomplish. its an unfair expectation, doing three labs with all theunits correctly labeled, with at least half page conclusion/theory all typed up in my own words, with two chapters to study for this weeks lecture,but i don't mind it one bit, because i knowit's contributing towards making me a better engineer who in the future will be able towrite good reports.i'd rather deal with that, because that will benefit me MUCH more than wasting my time writing critiques/essays. there's nothing to learn from that, whereas writing a technical report, you tend to hammer in the concepts as you type it. i see no benefit, personal, interpersonal, or academic, by writing essays about stories and excerpts from novels/textbooks.

it's why people switch careers, because they don't like the work/industry theyre in, they major in something else, because what they did in their previous field to them seemed irrelevant/pointless/unfulfilling. this is the feeling i get when doing essays for these classes, at least in engineering i have to do work i don't like or want to do, but at least it relates to my field/career of choice, otherwise i wouldn't be there to begin with.

again, as forlearning to interact with others, i still fail to see how writing essays about poets and comparing/contrasting and regurgitating facts can improve one's interpersonal/professional skills.what one studes in the classroom, the essays and reports that one does to submit for a grade has nothing to do with how a person behaves around people in a professionalsetting. whatever experience were supposed to get from taking these classes,so far i feel as if i've gained nothing from them, everything i've learned in terms of work ethic/time managament, all have come from studying my major in an effective and on a timely manner, becausei can't afford to slack off on such a rigorous courseload.

referencing a personal family friend who is a recruiter for a drilling contractor, what they look for in their candidates is primarily their GPA, and then internship experience. they don't care if you've had to suffer through essays you didnt want to do/didn't see the point of doing.if anything they'll ask you to bring a report and/or undergraduate thesisfor your major, buti highly doubt they'll ask for your compare/contrast essay.

and sure, during the internship (if you had one) you were made to do things nobody else would, but at the very least you would be more inclined to do it, considering it's contributing towards something relevant to your major, and also because it could lead to a potential job. there is nothing to be gained by writing lengthy papers about poets other than a grade/credit, you forget about it and move on, as if you never took it, whereas lab reports hammer in concepts relative to your field.

these nonmajorclasses to me are just an obstacle i have to getrid of, hence why i shall be taking it over christmas when i won't have any engineering courses to worry about along with the LA class. typing essays and submitting them to the teacher doesn't help me in any way in regards to interaction with others, and as for doing something i dno't like, it's why im not majoring in it, i'll be given tasks in engineering i won't fancy, but it will be related to my major, so i'll enjoy it to some extent. i'm sure a history major wouldn't last very long in a differential equations class, same way a math major wouldn't last very long in rennaisance theory class (or stay awake long enough to)

speaking of essays i need to stop writing them on here, sorry for the walls of text. off to work for me !

[QUOTE="at0micpotato"]rawsavon

i would say that yes, it does benefit me in that regard, but i would much rather put that time/effort/energy into courses in my major, seeing as they are more time consuming, seeing as i currently am pretty busy (must get off of here though if i wish to get anything done lol)

i've practiced and honed my time management/discipline skills purely on prioritizing my classes, with liberal arts being the lowest priority, it doesn't take me much time to finish assignments for these classes in relation with my engineering coursework,but even then these tend to take a considerable amount of time.its sufficient to say my time managament/discipline camedirectly from takingthe courses in my major.

i'm just saying i would much rather put that discipline/effort into courses that contribute to my major. engineering is rigorous, and almost impossible to get through unless one develops the disicpline and time management skills, and utilizing these skills for a class irrelevant to my major is a waste of time and effort in my opinion, as ohgodman points out.

and as for experience, yes people skills, interviewing skills, these skills get's ones foot in the door, but GPA gets a person that interview to begin with. most hiring managers for technical companies could care less how you did in your history/sociology/arts courses, hence they look at your major GPA.

i didn't learn how to interview and/or interact in a professional manner in these LA classes, only learned to resent pointless essays about poets i could care less about.

learning interviewing and professional skills, that's what workshops are for, regardless of major, and employers train their employees for these as well, through meetings and employee training/awareness programs. as a college grad, only thing you have giong for you is your grades, and internship experience (where GPA is a factor, and liberal arts classes are considered to be GPA boosters at best for us engineers), no employer will ask an engineering graduate what he thought of a certain excerpt from a poem, or how a certain article/story addresses domestic issues/relationships.

so far in my academic career the only "going outside my major" experience i've had is intensive essay writing/poem critiquing, and i hated it, especially the fact that the grading rubric was setup so that you had no choice but to write it as if you're doing your phd on the subject matter. for me that was torture, putting in hours for that big research paper on some topic the professor assigned, thinkingto myself whyi'm even doing this,because the minute i turned it in and walked out the door, i was glad it was over, i didn't feel better about it intellectually, just releived that i won't haveto do somethingso pointless again - at least until i have to takethe second level as a requirement. it felt wierd, doing flow rate equations, then jumping into how i feel about some poem edgar alan poe wrote.

if that's going "outside my major", then i'd much rather just do that on my own time, without having to worry about grades or have it interfere with courses in my major.

im definitely positive that those in liberal arts HATE taking physics/precalculus to satisfy their math/science requirements, but lucky for them they only have to take two courses or so, with the restbeing like the rest of us, art/history/socio/philo, but hey that's their thing, so lucky them. us technical majors have to deal with taking a considerable amount of classes that are of no use to us. How would an English majorfeel ifs/he has to take at least X numbers of credit hours in a technical major ie major that has nothing to do with their chosen area of study? not very good, which is why you hear technical majors **** and moan about it the most, as compared to other majors that have to take these very same classes.

[QUOTE="at0micpotato"]rawsavon

Yes, i agree there are other choices, but these days, its almost impossible to break into any industry unless one knows someone, or one has some kind of credential.

hence why majority of young peopel are going to college, and all college majors have to take these courses at one point or another in their academic career, doesn't matter which career/major/industry one chooses to go into, and obvoiusly those who have chosen these as their majors are going to be studying these courses at a deeper level than the rest.

thebest/surest way for a young kid w/no prior experience to break into engineering, withno connections/experience in the industry, is to get the degree. and making thatsensible choice, brings with itit's own share of frustrations, butnonetheless it's the best choice for someone in my situation. having made this choice, it has it's frustrations to go along with it, like everything else in life,and for me it's having to pay for and spend time in classes that i personally did not/cannot benefit from, except english composition. hence my distaste for liberal arts.

personally surei may not benefit, but if me regurgitating facts onto an exam, only to forget it the minute i walk out of that class seems like an industry standard then by all means, i've no right to complain. although still i highly doubt engineering companies care much about how an engineer did in their art classes, since they have their own standards they holdtheengineering school andthe students attending the school up to.

Seeing as the economy the way it is, engineering, among a select few, are still among the most secure industry relative to non science/technicalindustries, so for me choosing another industry, for which i have no lack of interest in to begin with other than engineering, would be a no no.

i will agree though,itcertaintly does discipline you, pulling10 page essays and critiques out your ass for something that you could care less about does indeed take tremendous amount of discipline and effort, so yeah maybe in a way if one can do that, then they can surely perform the most mundane of tasks within their major without any complaint once they getout into the industry.that's probably the only thing ican imagine taking away from these classes, as so far i've had huge engineeringexams come and go, and instead of devoting my full time towards thse exams, i've had to split them between essay writing/critiquing/researching for an argumentative essay, which upon finishing i would forget everything i wrote, to resume studying for classes that are relative to my major. maybe that's another added benefit, time management, but as far as being a well rounded indivual, i don'tthink i'dfeel any different if i hadn't taken those classes.

so yeah, most people who are non liberal arts majors don't see the relevance/point of it, buteveryone has to do it, and that's why some people have this resentful attitude towards liberal arts, and vice versa.

i still don't get the concept of "well rounded", if i took a class, passed it, and forgot the learned material due to it being overwritten by concepts taught in my engineering courses,it's almost asif i didn't take those courses at all to begin with, seeing as i still don't remember anything from my history/art/sociology classes.......

sorry if this offends anyone, just up to my neck in work right now, just venting/ranting on here so if i seem like a troll my apologies. everyone has to live with their decisions, and with those decisions there are drawbacks, i guess in the case of academics this would be one for many it seems

[QUOTE="thegerg"]

[QUOTE="at0micpotato"]Actually you are, social sciences and visual arts are required courses implemented into the curriculum that every major has to take, hence you kind of are forced to take it. Required if I'm not mistaken means mandatory, and mandatory means you have to do something whether you want to or not. If I wish to learn about sociology/physiology/phsycology, then that's whatthe internet is for, given the choice I'd much rather spend my academic time and money on classes that I'm interested in and subjects that would matter in my degree plan. Subjects such as those mentioned above can be 'learned' on my own time without having to stress about being graded on it, hence forcing myself to spend time on it when I could be usig that time to study my major ie what I truly wish to study. That's where gradin comes in, nobody cares how much you learned, as long as you get the high grade. If I wan to make myself a well rounded person, that should be my own choice, meaning not have to pay money and force myself to learn something on the school's terms because there grading me for it. Sort for my spelling, typing on a small itouch keypad tends to make my grammar a little messy, I assure you my grammar is much better if/when I'm writing a report or a resume, but on a public forum I doubt I'll be heavily penalized for misspelling a few words her and there.rawsavon

You're a big boy now, don't takce classes that you don't really want to take.

It's true that i have made an agreement yes to take the classes required to get a degree in my field of interest, that being said, i am required to take the courses such as social sciences, visual/performing arts, and the like, that's just something everyone has to deal with. voluntary? don't think so, if it was voluntary, i would definitely opt out of taking those classes, and only take the ones pertaining to my major, but what's stopping me from only taking engineering courses is the college, as per their requirement i HAVE to take these other courses in order to get my degree.

but as rawvason points out, those are the standards set by the industry, if they say technical majors are required to take and pass these courses to make us "well rounded", then that's how it is, meaning we have no say, meaning we have to take these pointless classes whether we want to or not, ie forced. i for one dont think ill get any benefit from reading poems/bookson shakespeare/edgar alan poe or whathaveyou and writingpages and pages of essays on them, neither will igain anything from knowing art history or how to draw. that's what the engineering design classes are for, which should be the main focus for the industry so to speak when it comes to setting curriculum standards.

again, the college itself is focusing on what the industry wants, which from my knowledge means modifying the courses for themajor to tailor the needs of the industry,because i seriously doubt a technical company/industry looking to hire engineerswould care how a philosophy/sociology/arts course is taught to them, with the exception of english composition andonly the courses pertainining to their major

I personally know an english major who's concentration is creative writing, she is taking three courses in her major, and a precalculus course to satisfy her math requirements. why on earth does she need math? let alone precalculus? to "better herself"? that's not the impression i got by the way she was grumbling about all the study time that class alone takes up in comparison with her other classes ie classes in her major. she sees it as a burden, something she has to get out of the way, not as something that will "better" herself. and that's how colleges make money, that's how the counselors and those liberal arts majors who couldn't find employments elsewhere keep getting a paycheck and stay employed, because they know people will have to take their courses whether they want to or not, ie standards set by the school. industry only cares about the courses that relate to their area of expertise.

i'm not complaining that i have to take these classes, i'm just pointing out why taking these classes are pointless and irrelevant for my major,and i definitely do not see them as something that will make me "well rounded". I'm sure liberal arts majors feel the same way about satisfying their basic math/science requirements, they hate math/science too even thought they only have to take the basic level (that's why they're majoring in the arts to begin with), but it's something they have to get through because it's in their degree plan, meaningthey have toinvest time/money into these classes.

if i could have a choice of not taking them, i wouldnt, but seeing as i have no choice, i have to take those classes as well, sure i can pick which art class, which sociology class, or which phsycology class i want to take, but either way i know it's a waste, spending hard earned money on classes i have absolutely no interest in, even if i did have a remote interest,most of the things taught in these classes one can learn by going to a library orsurfing the net anyways.

and btw by liberal arts i mean pure liberal arts such as English/History/Phsycology/Philosophy etc., don't even know why science/bio/physics/math are considered arts since theyr'e closely related and implemented into technical and science programs.

sorry for the rant, saw this thread, and just wanted to vent my frustrations about my upcoming fall mini semester, i wanted to take a graphics course, but i need to get english composition 2 out of the way first.......