Following logical conclusions is also not a matter of faith. You are free to reject logical thinking, but it doesn't mean that accepting logic and relying on evidence requires faith.Gallion-Beast

It is interesting that you bring up "logical coinclusions"as if non-believers have a corner on that market. :)

In order for one not to believe that Jesus is God, that He was not raised from the dead, as He predicted in advance, and which therefore proves that God exists, they would have to deny the truth of the empty tomb and the Resurrection. In addition, they would have to deny the fulfillment of hundreds of prophecies in Christ. .

They would have to believe that the Apostles and early Christians made up the resurrection account. This would require a rational explanation for why the Apostles and early Christians would willingly endure persecution and death for something they knew was a lie? The Apostles and early Christians, many of whom were eyewitnesses to the resurrection, were stoned to death, beheaded, boiled in oil, imprisoned, crucified, scourged, fed to lions, clothed in animal skins and then torn apart by wild beasts, tarred and lit on fire, disemboweled, burnt at the stake, etc., rather than recant their faith.

A rational explanation would be required as to why the Jewish Priests and Roman authorities that wanted so much to stamp out early Christianity, as evidenced by their persecution of Christians, chose not to display Jesus' body to disprove the claims of the followers of Christ that he had arose from the dead., if they had stolen the body.

A rational explanation would be required for the dramatic change in the Apostles' behavior. They scattered and even denied knowing Jesus when He was arrested. After His death, they were crushed, in hiding, their Messiah put to death like a common criminal. Suddenly, after Jesus appeared to them there was a dramatic change. They began to openly preach the Gospel in the Temple in Jerusalem, the very city where Jesus was crucified. The very city where there were living eyewitnesses to the events that would have refuted them if they were lying. They were told to stop but defied the authorities. The endured persecution and ultimately death rather than recant their faith because they believed they saw, touched, and fellowshipped with the resurrected Jesus.

Also needing rational explanation would be why the Apostles were bold enough to preach the resurrection in Jerusalem, the very city where Christ was crucified, to crowds that lived during those events and could have easily disputed the resurrection claims publicly. If they were spreading a lie, why did they not go to some remote area where there were no eyewitnesses to the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ that could disputed their claims if they were lying?

Also needing explanation is the dramatic conversion of Saul, later know as Paul, from a persecutor of Christians to follower of Christ and the greatest evangelist of all times.

Also, one would have to impair the credibility of the over 500 eyewitnesses to the resurrected Christ that are listed in Scripture.

Finally, one would need to explain why the early Church grew so quickly in a pagan world, especially when it was under intense persecution. Even today, in countries like North Korea and China, where Christians are under the most intense persecution, the Church is growing faster than in areas with less persecution.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that you are not entitled to your beliefs, far be it to impose on your free will, but personally, when one rationally considers the evidence, the reasonable and rational belief is in the truth of Christianity.

It depends on the religion. Christianity is wishy-washy on this subject, but Galatians 2:16 says, "A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ." Elsewhere in the Bible, specifically in James 2:17, it says, "Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."Genetic_Code

The Bible teaches that apart from Christ, all of our works are as filthy rags to the Lord. It clearly teaches that salvation is through God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. When one is reborn in Christ, they are a new creature. They will bear fruits. They will do works in service to the Lord. James is correct in teaching that if one does not bear fruits, if they do not evidence a changed life doing works in service to the Lord, their faith is dead. Justification comes first by faith. Works in service to the Lord follow justification.

Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior;
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

[QUOTE="D_Battery"][QUOTE="Silenthps"] No I'm not basically saying that. I'm saying equating God to a tyrant would be a false analogy since every tyrant that ever existed was a man who in and of his self has no real right to rule over another man. However God does have that right to rule over man since he gave him life and every molecule of that mans body is borrowed and sustained by God. Judging God's ethics would be a different topic but if you insist... Him being God isn't the only reason why he's above all judgement. He's above all judgement by man simply because He's all knowing and you're not. You're a time-bound being and He's not and you judging any of His actions is foolish since you don't know the end result. Silenthps

Everyone has faith of some kind. It is the obkect of one;s faith that matters. Christians have faith in Christ, in our Creator, in His promises, in the truth of God's revealed Word. Others place their faith in the words of man. The Word of God defines faith this way.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Have you ever considered that according to belief system that places faith in scientific naturalism, there are "gods"? First, there are the "creator gods", "chance" and "random mutation". Then there is the "god of divine judgment", "natural selection". These "gods" impose their "will" and "plan" on the natural world through chaos and random accident during "creation", and "judgment" through the death of the less fit, favoring the survival of the fittest in their "divine plan" for the linear progression of life. They even have a "messiah", Charles Darwin, who "came" to spread his "gospel" of the origin and purpose of life. They even have "prophets", "shamans", and "theologians", the scientists that speculate and create their "myths and doctrine" about how life began and evolved, as in the "slime plus time hypothesis". In addition, they have strict discipline within their faith. Any scientist that dares to speak openly about their doubt in the faith of scientific naturalism can and will be "ex-communicated." Finally, they have their "miracles", beliefs like "nothing created everything" at the big bang, and life began by "self-creation" from non-living chemicals. Scientific naturalism, is one interesting faith.

Psa 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

[QUOTE="Silenthps"][QUOTE="mindstorm"] I suppose my thoughts on the topic can very well be summed up in the following statement: As soon as we think God is obligated to save us then we think too much of ourselves and too little of God.mindstorm

I like that statement too. Many, many people, even professing Christians have difficulty accepting the sovereignty of God. In reality, He owes us nothing, we owe Him everything.

No hidden fees? Religion is the #1 money making scheme in the world with tons of hidden fees. Catholic priests molest kids. Christian churches (not all but some) demand 10 percent of your income. Regardless I know that is not what you meant but I still refute the idea of an invisible man out there waiting to judge us all when we die. I do not have any quarrel with people who choose to believe it. I do however get annoyed when people try to push their belief's on others. Hence why I get annoyed with Christianity, its like their #1 thing they have to do is push it on others.testfactor888

Religions are man made. They are fallen man's attempts to reach up and please a god or gods to gain their favor. Biblical Christianity is a personal relationship with God through faith and trust in Jesus Christ. It is the manifesttion of a loving, merciful God reaching down to fallen man in grace, love and mercy, offering them eternal life in Christ. People doing ungodly things in the name of God cannot be attributed to God. If I rob a bank in your name, does that make you guilty of robbing the bank?

Your comment about Christians "pushing their beliefs on others" is a straw man. A Christian sharing and defending their faith is not "pushing their beliefs on others." Are they holding a gun to your head? Are they holding you captive? No. You have a free will to ignore everything we say. Christians do not "save or convert" anyone. Only the Holy Spirit has the power to change one's heart.

The Word of God is can be very convicting.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

[QUOTE="Silenthps"][QUOTE="D_Battery"] Hey, to each his own. Heavy-handed tyranny isn't exactly my cup of tea, but if you're into that I won't judge.D_Battery

God is sovereign over us, His creation. He makes the rules, not us. We are powerless to change His eternal plan. We either accept His plan of salvation in Christ, or reject it. Those are our only two choices. We have a free will to do either. If we seek God, in Godly sorrow for our sin against Him, repent in spirit and in truth, He will answer us and reveal Himself to us through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

Here is a bit of irony to consider. Many humans often live many aspects of their lives in a way that contradicts the way they approach God. For example in a job. They accept the rules and standards of their employer and do not openly mock and complain about them. They accept that if they do not meet those standards, they will not be rewarded and may even be separated from that employer. They do not spend their time trying to redefine and change their employers rules and standards of performance. If the rules do not permit moonlighting, they don't try and get the rules changed. They accept these things if they really want to work there.

The same goes in their relationships. If they love their mate, they show it and accept the standards of the relationship. They don't cheat or spend time complaining that their mate wants them to love them and put them first. They don't complain that if their mate requires fidelity that this in unfair. Most will accept that if they violate the rules of the relationship there are consequences, separation, or even the end of the relationship. If they truly want that relationship, they will live by the rules and go the extra mile to show their mate their love for them and the importance of that relationship to their lives.

When it comes to their relationship with God however, the opposite is often true. Many humans have difficulty accepting the sovereignty of the Lord of His creation. They want to show that His rules are unfair, that He has no right to make them, that they are wrong, that our standards are better. They want to be able to choose to freely break His rules and then still not be punished and also receive the same rewards as those that choose to follow Him and His commandments. They want to reject His plan of reconciliation yet still be reconciled with him in the end. God is sovereign over His creation. It is His way, not ours.

Selah

Diametraphine

I don't accept those premises in that your references are temporal in nature and irrelevant to the point I was making. God's plan is eternal in nature. In our natural state, we are already separated from God by our sin. God is sovereign, Heaven is His domain. We are His creation. He can and does make the rules for who will reside with him eternally in Heaven. We are free to accept His plan of eternal salvation and life, and eternal fellowship with Him or reject it.

[QUOTE="ZCatan"][QUOTE="D_Battery"]If the most just being would deliver the same punishment unto the kindest pagan as to the vilest murderer, then I'll take injustice.testfactor888

And God gives each of us a free will to choose what we believe. He will not force us to have eternal life and fellowship with Him if that is not what we want. We are each free to seek eternal fellowship with Him in Christ or reject His plan of salvation in Christ.

Here is a bit of irony to consider. Many humans often live many aspects of their lives in a way that contradicts the way they approach God. For example in a job. They accept the rules and standards of their employer and do not openly mock and complain about them. They accept that if they do not meet those standards, they will not be rewarded and may even be separated from that employer. They do not spend their time trying to redefine and change their employers rules and standards of performance. If the rules do not permit moonlighting, they don't try and get the rules changed. They accept these things if they really want to work there.

The same goes in their relationships. If they love their mate, they show it and accept the standards of the relationship. They don't cheat or spend time complaining that their mate wants them to love them and put them first. They don't complain that if their mate requires fidelity that this in unfair. Most will accept that if they violate the rules of the relationship there are consequences, separation, or even the end of the relationship. If they truly want that relationship, they will live by the rules and go the extra mile to show their mate their love for them and the importance of that relationship to their lives.

When it comes to their relationship with God however, the opposite is often true. Many humans have difficulty accepting the sovereignty of the Lord of His creation. They want to show that His rules are unfair, that He has no right to make them, that they are wrong, that our standards are better. They want to be able to choose to freely break His rules and then still not be punished and also receive the same rewards as those that choose to follow Him and His commandments. They want to reject His plan of reconciliation yet still be reconciled with him in the end. God is sovereign over His creation. It is His way, not ours.

Selah

I don't understand how god can "love everyone" and yet sentence everyone who does not go by blind faith to eternal torture. Blind faith as in there is no actual evidence that god exists, no offense to religious people as I have nothing against them.Mr_Alexander

You are entitled to your opinion that faith the God of the Bible and His Word, both written and revealed, is "blind faith", however there is far more evidence for the existence of God, the truth of Christianity, the inspiration and truth of the Bible, and the resurrection of Jesus Christ, than there is that God does not exist. He has revealed Himself in His creation, in His Word, in Jesus Christ, and in the power of the Holy spirit to change lives.

I encourage everyone to study the evidence. For those interested, here are a couple of good places to start.

http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/

http://www.allaboutgod.com/does-god-exist.htm

http://www.doesgodexist.org/

"Dr. Greenleaf, the Royal Professor of Law at Harvard University, was one of the greatest legal minds that ever lived. He wrote the famous legal volume entitled, A Treatise on the Law of Evidence, considered by many the greatest legal volume ever written. Dr. Simon Greenleaf believed the Resurrection of Jesus Christ was a hoax. And he determined, once and for all, to expose the "myth" of the Resurrection. After thoroughly examining the evidence for the resurrection — Dr. Greenleaf came to the exact opposite conclusion! He wrote a book entitled, An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice. In which he emphatically stated:

"it was impossible that the apostles could have persisted in affirming the truths they had narrated, had not Jesus Christ actually risen from the dead. . . ."
(Simon Greenleaf, An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice, p.29).

Greenleaf concluded that according to the jurisdiction of legal evidence the resurrection of Jesus Christ was the best supported event in all of ancient history!

And not only that, Dr. Greenleaf was so convinced by the overwhelming evidence, he committed his life to Jesus Christ!" Source: Evidence That Demands a Verdict.