hey, this has always bugged me, but lets say there is a nice person, does good deeds ( charity, helping others, saving lives etc) but is an atheist, would he/she still go to heaven? P.s im not religious.

Discuss :)

Suicide-Panda

I will try to answer this for you. According to God's revealed Word, it is not an issue of works, it is an issue of sin. God is holy, just and righteous. By His very nature, He cannot allow sin into His presence. Man is eternally separated from God by our sin. When we sin, we sin against God. If God did not punish sin He would not be just. After the Fall, man inherited a sin nature. It is impossible for any human to live a sinless life. We all commit sin. Remember, sin is not defined by our standards but rather by God's perfect standards. Since we are all guilty of sin by God's standards of perfection, we are eternally separated from Him. God has decreed that the penalty for sin is death, spiritual death which is eternal separation from Him. There is nothing we can do to bridge that gap. God in love, mercy and grace, sent His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, who lived a sinless life, to die in payment for the sins of those that repent, ask God for forgiveness of their sin and place their trust in Christ alone for their salvation. When one repents and accepts Christ as their Lord and Savior, they are re-born a new creature in Christ. Their sins are forgiven, imputed to Christ and Christ's righteousness is imputed to them, the price for their sin paid in full. In God's eyes, they are now counted righteous and are reunited in fellowship with Him, in this world and eternally.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life: and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

I hope this answers your question.

Yet again I just posted a recent Gallup poll that shows that you are wrong.. Its split pretty evenly being 49% for and 46% against when it comes to the healthcare reform.sSubZerOo

"Fifty-three percent (53%) of voters nationwide favor repeal of the recently passed national health care law. The latest weekly Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey on the subject finds that 42% oppose repeal."

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/health_care_law

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="harashawn"] If anyone thinks they have been saved, they probably haven't. harashawn

I knew you would say that, everyone responds in that exact way. There is never variation in the response. Which further proves to me that these beliefs are indoctrination. People being indoctrinated into tradition over and above what Scripture actually SAYS. Where in the Bible did it say David was in Heaven spiritually? Not to mention, didn't Peter say he did NOT ascend to the Heavens? That seems to contradict what you want to tell me.

Oh and, you forgot the rest of that series of scripture you posted.

Matthew 17:5-9 "While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the VISION to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead." (Emphasis mine)

It was meant as a demonstration from God, it was not a real event. So, this also does not prove an immortal "soul".JudgementEden

So anyone that does not agree with the sentiment you are imposing on Scripture is "indoctrinated". Nice. Friend you know nothing about me, my education, my age, what research I have done, etc. If you continue the personal slant, this conversation will end.

That's right, David's body is in the grave. His spirit however is with the Lord.

So you think God made a "demonstration" at the transfiguration. Show me where Scripture says it was not a real event.

Do you also think Jesus is a created being? What denomination are you?blackregiment

I wonder why you're being so sensitive, what I said is the truth. I'm not taking it back. I know it's indoctrination because I know how people get into the typical belief of eternal torment. I was indoctrinated to believe in it, with hardly any biblical basis whatsoever. What I said wasn't really a personal slant, it definitely wasn't meant as some type of insult. I suggest you develop a thicker skin if something like that bothers you so much.

And no, no matter what you think of David, it doesn't make it true. No matter how hard you believe. The Bible contradicts you on the belief David is currently in Heaven. Yet, you refuse to even acknowledge that. I have countered most of your points, and you still wouldn't admit you could be wrong. It's somewhat funny, mostly sad. Christians often say how annoying Atheists are, yet, a lot of Christians are just as bad. Most Christians think they are above correction, which is totally false.

I find it frustrating that I have to keep using dictionary definitions to tell you what a word means. You want proof that the sighting of Moses and Elijah was not a real event, yet I already gave you evidence. The word "Vision" always means seeing something that's not really there. The word Vision also can mean seeing into the future. What was seen hasn't happened yet, it was a vision. I dont know why this is so hard to grasp. And now you are implying what I believe is crazy since you asked me "Do you ALSO think Jesus is a created being?" Lastly, if you were observant you would see I already answered the denomination question awhile ago. And really, even if I subscribed to one, it shouldn't matter.JudgementEden

I am not being sensitive. You have no right to tell others that disagree with your theology or that choose not to impose secular definitions on the Word of God, as you do, that they are "indoctrinated". Believe what you want and so will I. I am comfortable that my beliefs on the matter conform to the Word of God.

I am comfortable with the testimony of the Holy Spirit regarding what the Word of God reveals regarding eternity. There is a well know trend today to "air-condition" hell so as not to offend the world that I do not participate in. We are to conform our beliefs to the revealed Word of God, not our feelings and emotions. I trust in the Holy Spirit's guidance on the Word of God. I see that you answered the denomination question but still did not answer my question regarding Christ. Do you believe Jesus is a created being? Do you accept the sovereignty of God? Who do you believe Jesus Christ is? Do you believe Jesus is God, that He is eternal?

David's body is in the grave and will be there until the Lord returns and his spirit is with the Lord. The fact that you do not accept that man is composed of a mortal body and a separate immortal soul/spirit does not make it a fact. Scripture is very clear on this matter and there is no contradiction, unless of course, one chooses to ignore the clear teaching of Scripture on the reality of a mortal body and an immortal soul/spirit.

Question: "Do we have two or three parts? Body, soul, and spirit? Dichotomy or trichotomy?"

http://www.gotquestions.org/body-soul-spirit.html

Question: "Is the human soul mortal or immortal?"

http://www.gotquestions.org/human-soul-mortal-immortal.html

In regards to the "definitions" you refer to, you are attempting to impose modern secular definitions and understanding on the Word of God to force Scripture to fit your pre-conceived desires.

For example, "vision". You apparently don't want to believe that Moses and Elijah's spirit appeared with Jesus at the transfiguration which a literal reading of the Words clearly reveal so you want to define the event as a "mirage" a "trick on their minds". That is not what Scripture clearly reveals.

Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Mat 17:9 AndG2532 as theyG846 came downG2597 fromG575 theG3588 mountain,G3735 JesusG2424 chargedG1781 them,G846 saying,G3004 TellG2036 theG3588 visionG3705 to no man,G3367 untilG2193 G302 theG3588 SonG5207 of manG444 be risen againG450 fromG1537 the dead.G3498

G3705
ὅραμα
horama
Thayer Definition:
1) that which is seen, spectacle
2) a sight divinely granted in an ecstasy or in a sleep, a vision
Part of Speech: noun neuter

--------

Strong's definition

G3705
ὅραμα
horama
hor'-am-ah
From G3708; something gazed at, that is, a spectacle (especially supernatural): - sight, vision.

That's right, David's body is in the grave. His spirit however is with the Lord.

Mat 22:43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
Mat 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Mat 22:45 If David then call him, Lord, how is he his son?

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

and...

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him.

Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.blackregiment

I knew you would say that, everyone responds in that exact way. There is never variation in the response. Which further proves to me that these beliefs are indoctrination. People being indoctrinated into tradition over and above what Scripture actually SAYS. Where in the Bible did it say David was in Heaven spiritually? Not to mention, didn't Peter say he did NOT ascend to the Heavens? That seems to contradict what you want to tell me.

Oh and, you forgot the rest of that series of scripture you posted.

Matthew 17:5-9 "While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the VISION to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead." (Emphasis mine)

It was meant as a demonstration from God, it was not a real event. So, this also does not prove an immortal "soul".

JudgementEden

So anyone that does not agree with the sentiment you are imposing on Scripture is "indoctrinated". Nice. Friend you know nothing about me, my education, my age, what research I have done, etc. If you continue the personal slant, this conversation will end.

That's right, David's body is in the grave. His spirit however is with the Lord.

So you think God made a "demonstration" at the transfiguration. Show me where Scripture says it was not a real event.

Do you also think Jesus is a created being? What denomination are you?

I'll just let Solomon answer you.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

We must interpret Scripture in light of the whole counsel of God/s Word.

and Paul...

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

blackregiment

Acts 2:29,34 "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. " "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool."

That declaration was made AFTER Jesus ascended to Heaven. David was still dead, he's still dead today. He is not alive on Earth, nor is he alive in Heaven. Oh and racer8dan, I forgot to tell you that believers wont be going to Heaven to live. They continue to live here. The resurrection is what enables us to live with immortality, it is the gift of God. We do not naturally possess it, to believe that is terribly wrong.

JudgementEden

That's right, David's body is in the grave. His spirit however is with the Lord.

Mat 22:43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
Mat 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Mat 22:45 If David then call him, Lord, how is he his son?

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

and...

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him.
Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.

This is the Dictionary definition for Preconceived:

–verb (used with object), -ceived, -ceiv·ing. to form a conception or opinion of beforehand, as before seeing evidence or as a result of previously held prejudice.

You fit that description more than myself, since ever since you believed in the Bible you believed in Eternal Torment, right? Or should I call it, "Traditionalism"? After all, you do use that stupid term Annihilationist. I used to hold the belief of Traditionalism just as much as you, but heavy research has lead me in the opposite direction. Therefor, since I looked at every point, and studied Annihilationism, studied more of Traditionalism, and even Universalism, I do not have any preconceived notions.

I studied each belief without bias. I would believe whatever the truth told me, and that is what I am trying to have people understand now. I had a prejudice, but I let it go, there is no room for it when it comes to truth.

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]You are entitled to your beliefs. I will say, in your response, I found a lot of assumptions and human reasoning. Our finite reasoning in not above, nor can it be substituted for the thoughts and ways of the Lord. In addition, you have takes several verses out of context of what was being discussed in that chapter and changed the meaning to suit your reasoning. I will point that out as we go.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor?

Job 11:7 Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection? Our spirituality immortality is sustained by God, not in and of ourselves. We are dependent on God for our immorality. God's is immortal in and of Himself.JudgementEden

I must state that these verses you quoted are copouts in your case, as you use these so you dont have to explain in an in depth way of why Traditionalism is true. These scriptures are true, and can be trusted, but you are using them for your own ends. So that you can, by default, be right. I should also point out that God gave us a Brain for many reasons, one of which, is to think. Contrary to popular Christian belief, God wants us to understand everything mentioned in the scriptures.

This bologna about not thinking about Hell because God is too complicated is a copout I used to use as well. Belief in a traditional version of Hell also gives way to be grossly deceived by malignant entities. When a person believes in the Immortality of the "soul" they are fair game to any spirit that wishes to decieve you. If you were to have an OBE today, would you believe it to come from God? Of course you would. Because whatever this spirit shows you couldn't be refuted, not even biblically. Not if you believe in immortality of the soul anyway. If you believe what the Bible actually says, it's fairly easy to refute.

I'll just let Solomon answer you.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

We must interpret Scripture in light of the whole counsel of God/s Word.

and Paul...

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

You forgot one little detail, God the Father is a spirit. God doesn't have a body that can die, He cannot die. We have a body that can die, but you want us to believe we have a spirit that CANNOT die. However, if that was the case, we would be equal in God's immortality. When He said He's the only one who is immortal, He meant it. JudgementEden

The scripture I posted earlier is just the tip of the ice berg. There are a lot of problems with the immortality of the "soul". First off, what's the point of a resurrection if we are already in Heaven? JudgementEden

You cannot provide any biblical proof to answer that question. If people burn forever in Hell when they die, how can Sin itself die? God said He would put an end to Sin, you cannot do that if somewhere in the universe, people are still cursing His name. If God is everywhere (Which He is) that must mean He's in Hell too, does it not? But I thought Hell was eternal separation from God. JudgementEden

Then, you also have scriptures like this....

Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." JudgementEden

How can this scripture POSSIBLY mean eternal torture? What does DESTROY mean? Did God want us to dance around what such a simple word is supposed to mean? Did He mean for the Bible to be such a riddle? Of course not. Once you throw away your pre-conceived notions on what the text says, it is plain as day. JudgementEden

Ezekiel 28:17-18, "Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."

That one is referring to the demise of Satan, again, this isn't talking about eternal torture either. He is destroyed."JudgementEden

Revelation14:11 "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

People usually use this scripture when advocating the idea of eternal torture. But, this is not implying eternal torture either. At first glance it may, but its not. JudgementEden

This scripture is comparable to the next one.....

Isaiah 34:9,10 "And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up forever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever."That scripture is speaking of a land that was once called Edom. Do an internet search for the place. See if a place, somewhere, is still burning today. Search for Sodom and Gomorrah as well, see if that's still engulfed in flames.JudgementEden

Jude 1:7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

"Sodom and Gomorrha are used as examples to what will happen to the wicked at the end. What does that mean? It should be obvious. Destruction. JudgementEden

Look at this one....

Jonah 2:6 "I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars [was] about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God."

That's Jonah, speaking about his experience in the belly of that great fish. He says he was in it forever, but was he really? No, it's a figure of speech. If you say "This is taking forever to end" are you stuck in school for eternity? Of course not. And a lot of the times, forever means until whatever it is ends on its own. If someone dies by being burned to death, it will seem like forever TO THEM. The fire not being quenched just means it cannot be put out. It will keep burning until there is nothing left to burn. JudgementEden

We'll end with this....

Nahum 1:9 "What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time."
He will make an UTTER END (Sin is destroyed), affliction will not rise a second time. This cannot be anymore clear.JudgementEden

[QUOTE="JudgementEden"][QUOTE="racer8dan"]I never said it validated a particular religious belief, but I believe it validates the fact that we do have a soul, seperate from our physical body. I seem to remember reports of people having NDE's where there was no brain activity, as reported by doctors. How would these be explained? Or reports of the soul leaving the body and the person seeing the top of ambulances or hearing conversations in higher rooms. If the living body was the soul, then this wouldn't be possible. Of course we're taking another persons word for it without proof, on some of these, but they can't all be making it up.

racer8dan

If it will help, here is some Bible Commentary on the issue.

"1Ti 6:16
Who only hath immortality - The word here - ἀθανασία athanasia - properly means "exemption from death," and seems to mean that God, in his own nature, enjoys a perfect and certain exemption from death. Creatures have immortality only as they derive it from him, and of course are dependent on him for it. He has it by his very nature, and it is in his case underived, and he cannot be deprived of it. It is one of the essential attributes of his being, that he will always exist, and that death cannot reach him; compare the expression in Joh_5:26, "The Father hath life in himself," and the notes on that passage." Albert Barnes' Notes on thee Bible

"1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality,.... Angels are immortal, and so are the souls of men, and so will be the bodies of men after the resurrection; but then neither of these have immortality of themselves, they have it from God; who only has it, of himself, originally, essentially, and inderivatively." John Gills's Exposition of the Entire Bible