@nilsdoen: Of course there is a difference... and that is the reason I said that after the countries who formed the old soviet union, those countries are the one in line. Lets not forget that Putin already threaten them, a few days ago...
"Finland has crushed RU in the past and would with natos help..."
I think you need to take a closer look to the NATO countries...
@Sound_Demon: "Ukraine's govt is not "fairly elected"."
Oh, but it is fairly elected. You may question how the change was made before, but it is undeniable that the actual government was fairly elected. It was Ukraine people choice without a single doubt, and that's what makes the choice fairly.
"And the govt and people are VASTLY different things."
Not in this situation. Ukraine people is with their government. That is all we need to know.
"This is a direct threat to Russian interests."
Sorry but... there are two different things in your logic. The military Nato forces and bases in Ukraine and the rest of the Russian interests. I can understand Russian concerns about their military situation, but that's as far as their concerns are fair. Besides that is all about greed, pride and delusions of grandeur.
Unless you are telling me that "money and power" interests are a fair justification for the destruction of a country.
"The exact same thing happened in the Cuban missile crisis where both sides were placing military close to the opposing country borders."
I'm not defending the US but I don't remember the US destroying Cuba with a massive invasion... but maybe that's me...
"You push a super power to the wall, you'll get the horns."
You are pushing them to the wall... this is what they wanted all along. And the proof is that Ukraine will be just the first country to fall. Putin wants the old Soviet Union back... The nato "problem" was just the excuse he needed. That and the weakness of the EU (by the separation of the UK and the lack of a real internal army)... and the weakness of the US (provided by the internal division).
"Take note of all the other bombings either backed or perpetrated by the US government and NATO."
I´ll never understand this logic... if you want to talk about the things that the US and Nato did wrong, I´m here to debate... that is not excuse for what is happening now.
@sparent180: I like your analogy... but let me ask you one thing. Assuming that you have that kind of bully you perfectly described, what would you do? Wait for him to create more problems? Let him take more people (countries) in the process... Or block him up in some way or form.
Dont get me wrong. I know perfectly the dangerous behind this threat, and certainly I dont want any type of war, nuclear or even conventional.
I live in one of the most peaceful countries in the world. But when facing evil we have to choices, do something or accept we are no better than the evil ones.
@gotrekfabian: "if we can avoid it then we most definitely should."
Yes... But you have to realise that unless you face the threat directly, with the same level of threat, you will always play the good dog. Because Putin is always using that visiting card/threat. So my question is... how much is enough?
My country is part of Nato, and is the more far away from Russia in the European Union. The easy thing for my country and people like me it would be to look from far away a expect things to cool down.
But while we are doing that innocent people's lives are being destroyed because of one man...
Sorry if I can´t see that and pretend that everything is cool.
"This isn't a playground bully we're dealing with here, it's a dictator who thinks he is untouchable"
Yes... Until someone's shows him that he is not... when that moment happen he will change his perspective.
@illegal_peanut: I respected Ukraine as any other country. From a geographic point of view it is a fellow European country. But after this invasion I have to admit that my respect and admiration for the Ukraine people its by the roof.
They are defending their country, their freedom, their home with a courage and determination I never saw before. The russians are 10/1 or more, yet the Ukraine people look them in the eyes and say "f*** Y***". Balls of steel from these people.
I keep thinking that the only logical move is to face the threat eye to eye. Help the Ukraine people with direct force and block any form of Russian threat. A nuclear war is a dangerous concept, but with zero benefits to anyone. And I´m not talking about attacking Russia or their country, I´m talking about defending the Ukraine people on their territory.
@Sound_Demon: Wait? Are you saying that to have a corrupt government (fairly elected) is justification to an invasion? Are you really blaming Ukraine for the Russian invasion? Damn, you have to realise one thing, the excuse for the invasion of your country, not matter what country it is, is now available... You can't find no government without some for of corruption.
And I don't know but, maybe the Ukraine people prefer a government with some corruption level, over the dictatorship they will face in the few weeks...
@Sound_Demon: Is the actual president of Ukraine a fair president rightfully elected by the people of Ukraine? Yes... So, everything else is just noise to distract from reality.
If you have any doubts ask the Ukraine people, not the Russians...
@nilsdoen: No, I don't want to get nuked. But I also don't want to see my country and myself staying put while Ukraine is being torn apart by the delusions of grandeur of a coward.
The war is coming, now or in a few years... I just like the idea of fighting alongside the Ukraine people, and not against them when they become part of the Russian empire.
@gotrekfabian: "Europe can't be blamed for a lack of action whatever happens next."
Sure we can be blamed. If you see a bully hurting other people and you don't do nothing, you are also part of the problem. We already know what's coming next, and then (probably) Sweden and Finland...
I prefer a fight while my "allies" are still alive and kicking then allow the enemy to kill us one by one.
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