I'm an Agnostic Atheist.

dhyce

i think you have ignorance becuase you just start another thread that been posted MANY times over and over here in the OT forums.

acsam12304

I don't think starting a thread which has been made several times before in OT is what determines ones ignorance. The fact that i took the time to start this thread in order to discuss this subject, just proves that I am eager to hear other people opinions and learn more.

[QUOTE="escapeoftheape"]

1. Well, maybe I am an atheist. My point is merely that even if you do dismiss the big bang theory, and believe in a creator, I feel like it's craziness to actually worship this "creator". There is a difference between believing in a god, or a creator, than to be religious (and follow the texts written in some old book).

2. Because both the Quran and the Bible contain some texts which can only be described as evil - many of them are extremely discriminating. It should be possible to modernize a religion to make it fit in with todays world.

3. Why is he not a true believer? IMO that is his human side coming into visibility. Of course he would want to drink when he sees how much joy others get from it, no matter if he knows his religion forbids it or not. It doesn't have anything to do with being a believer, it's just a part of being human.

4. Not necessarily doing evil, but they might not make as big of an effort in life only due to the fact that they know that if anything goes wrong, they can just repent. I have met several christians who have used this as a way to justify not making an effort. The Bible teaches you to be like Jesus, yet today christians drive past slums in their SUV's on the way to church. Are they not christians? I think they are, they just don't bother making an effort - they're too human to give away all their belongings. Besides, they know they can just repent and then everything will be okay.

5. I guess number 4 answered this. People don't really bother making an effort, as they know they can just repent later on and everything will be fine. One can also compare the HDI's of countrys of certain religions.. Even branches within christianity. Look at Europe - protestant countries are rich, catholic countries are in the middle, and orthodox countries are poor. Now, I don't know a whole lot about the different branches of christainity.. But I know that the mentality of protestants is something along the lines of "if I don't succeed, I must try even harder", whereas in the Catholic church there is room for confession etc. It makes it easier to not give a f when you know everything will be fine afterwards as you can just confess to the priest.

6. IMO those who become religious in later years cannot compare in size compared to those who were introduced to it by their parents. If your parents told you all the time since you were born that christianity was the way to go, very few people would let anything written on the internet have any effect on them at all. I know that most people I know who were raised a christian or a muslim, are impossible to convert back to atheism/agnosticism.

7. If you and me are having an argument, it is because we have different opinions. Wars are created because of this - differencies. Wether it be opinions, skin color, culture or.. well, religion. It segregates people, created differencies between them, which many times throughout history has led to war and despair.

8. I'm not saying it's not understandable to feel superior to someone if you feel like you know something they don't - I'm saying that this is a problem and a bad side of religion. Again, this makes for heated conflicts with the potential of becoming violent and even lethal. Look at the crusades.

9. If you think that an invisible unicorn is just as likely to be the creator of the universe as the big bang theory, I'm afraid we have a disagreement. This is why I wrote that religious people should not expect people to keep a straight face when hearing about what they believe in - as it seems incredibly silly to those of us who are not religious. I don't feel like i deserve to be labeled as something as negative as "disrespectful" because I criticize a religion, a persons belief.

10. I don't base my respect of a person on what he or she believes in. This is because i truly believe that 90% of believers had their beliefs indutrinated by their parents or priests. Those little kids didn't even get to have a say - they were forced into it. I'm not denying that I probably would have been religious too, if my parents had raised me to be so (I was raised mainly by my mom, and while she considers herself a christian, she never attends church etc). Because of this, I don't consider "intelligence" and "religiousness" as two different things. I hate using the word, as it has such a negative and "offensive" ring to it, but it's brainwashing. Nothing more, nothing less.

11. See point number 7.. There are many causes for wars, and religion is one of them. Thus, without religion - there would be less war. IMO religion is a false need which doesn't have to be there. This is why I don't justify fighting over food with fighting over religious beliefs.

12. As more and more information is available to the average man, I find it natural for religion to diminish more and more. The rational side of man will always hold proven facts over magic, at least that's what I think.

I hope this cleared things up a little. I would of course be happy for another reply from you.

IAMTHEJOKER88

1. Why is it crazy to worship the creator? I'll take the Christian example, Christians believe that God created the universe and everything in it (except evil, that is another matter entirely). If God created everything that is good, then everything that is good that the believer experiences or encounters can be attributed to God. So why is acknowledging, and giving thanks, to this creator, who in the Christian tradition also creates heaven and hell and thus is the guarantor of life after death (provided you are Christian believer), such a crazy irrational thing? Give me reasons, stop making claims without any basis.

2. The problem is, believers take the word of the lord to be eternal truth. You would negate that by trying to modernise it. That was not even your original point. Some bits in the bible are, in the context of their time, seem discriminating, and the majority of that crap (i'm thinking of the bible here, in which there is a lot) is filtered out, because pragmatically speaking it simply would not work to do so. Your point was that they should not 'religionise' their life, as in they should not adhere to their religious beliefs. You then proceeded to ignore my point about the irrationality of believing in something and then acting on that belief.

3. A true believer will hold that whatever his religion claims (or 'dictates') is true. So that person would not be 'envious' of alcohol, merely 'tempted' by it. Yes, temptation is, i suppose, evident of the nature of man. It has everything to do with the believer, if said believer can overide base human instincts because of his belief.

4. Saying Christians don't make an effort is simply an awful argument. a), that is a generalisation, b) they are not true believers, because if they genuinely believed in the supposed truth of the bible, they would act with compassion, as these Christians do not do that, they are not true believers, therefore not an accurate representation of the Christian believers. I'm not saying they are not Christians, i am saying they are not reflective of the Christian ideal or even the common Christian. You also seem to be appealing to peoples' emotive response for an argument. Incurring moral outrage ('This is wrong!'), is never sufficient reasoning.

5. Again, generalisation. There are a vast number of reasons, both socio-economic, enviromental and political reasons why some countries are 'richer' than others. But to be honest, that is not even true what you have said. In fact many Protestant countries are currently bankrupt right now... I can see the mentality you are getting at, but you cannot apply this to all Catholics or all Protestants. Simply put, you have no argument here.

6. Again, 'i know these people' is bad reasoning, because you do not know all Christians etc. How do you know they are impossible to convert? That's absurd. It can only seem like they won't convert, not that they actually can't. You wouldn't know you could until it actually happened. The point is, i originally criticised you for not providing either any reasoning nor evidence in making the claim, 'the majority of Christians have indoctrinated beliefs'. Give reasons or evidence, and good evidence too, not 'i know some people', because they could well be the exception, therefore such an example in an argument is illogical!

7. I think this relates well to point 11, because here, you say differing opinions cause wars (which i would agree with). Could it not just be that then? Humans cause wars, religion does not?

But your orginal point was that religion is merely a tool, which you have now (again, i might add) strayed away from it. Religion does not divide people, it unites them as a community of believers, it is simply the multiplicity of religions that make it seem like the religious community are divided. They all have a common ideal, faith.

8. What, what, what? Crusades was not a mission of enlightenment, it was to ensure the security of pilgrims in the Holy Land. Obviously there were various political motives behind it, less war among Christians and a united front, financial gains etc etc, but it was definitely not a mission to enlighten the 'ignorant' Muslims.... no no no.

But, back to the point, i am going to quote you, and you tell me how you make logical sense, 'I'm not saying it's not understandable...I'm saying that this is a problem and a bad side of religion'

If it is a fault of man's to feel superior in this way, how is it a fault of religion?

9. 'If you think that an invisible unicorn is just as likely to be the creator of the universe as the big bang theory, I'm afraid we have a disagreement'. I did not say that. I said the existence of God was just as likely as an invisible unicorn. I can see why you assumed that and i am sorry i was not explicit. But in either case, teh Big Bang THEORY is just a theory, and isn't conclusive. And yes i agree with the rest of your point, i was originally just saying that it is understandable, not right or wrong, for believers to act in such a way.

10. You truly believe 90% of believers have indoctrinated beliefs? Why a true belief, you have not even given any evidence or reasoning!!!

And even so, if indoctrination merely introduces and forces into a person a certain belief, there is a need to sustain that belief in order for him to be a believer. That can be attributed to the faith itself. I think an evolvement from this indoctrination occurs more and more as you approach adult-hood, because it entails the necessity of independent thought.

11. I would not blame a religion such as Christianity, which preaches a radical pacifism, for the error of mankind. Blame the Churches or the believers, not the religion itself. Man is deeply flawed and so to act in such a way, in the name of the religion, (note: NOT BECAUSE OF THE RELIGION) is unsurprising.

12. The rational man will conclude that you will never be able to prove or disprove the existence of God. The rational man will also not be able to conclude that the laws of physics will not all break tomorrow. Because you are basing that on solely on empirical evidence, not on analytical truths, a definitive truth

I would hope that you now see what i am saying, acutally answer my points, and give sufficient reasoning/evidence for you claims.

2. I can't be bothered going back to see what I wrote.. But from what you wrote, I can only say that The Bible was written long ago, when the world was a very different time. Because of this, I do think that one would have to modernize the religion in order to practise it today. If not, that's just another proof that religion is holding man back.

3. Okay, let's use the word "tempted" instead. My point is merely that he is letting icnredibly old ideologies dictate his nutrition today - something which I think is a negative thing.

4. I never made such a generalization, actually. I said that religion can potentially (and I know many cases where it does, though you won't accept this as proper proof) encourage people to stay on the lazy side.. or rather, discourage them from actually making an effort - as they know laziness or "committing sins", in most cases wont have any downside except that they'll have to repent. IMO, this is simply logic. If you could steal, and then just say "sorry" to the police when caught and everything would be forgotten.. then you would be likely to steal more often. In this case, God has the role as the police.

5. I guess it's a generalization to say that most african countries are poor, too? Find a world map and list of countries by HDI indexes, and you'll be surprised by how logical it all seems. There are of course many other reasons for the state which a country finds itself in, but I do believe religion to be one of these reasons. Let me make it simple for you.. Religion > culture/mentality > work spirit/efficiency > social and economical accomplishments. Does this seem completely illogical to you?

6. Well, I did attend a christian private school for 3 years off my life, so even though I don't have scientific proof (this would have been impossible to aquire, so if this is all which you accept, perhaps it'd be a good idea to stop this discussion), I speak from experience, which I do think is worth something. My experience is that the majority of christians will have christian parents.. And I do not label this as a simple coincidence, though I guess that would be the political correct thing to do. I also know that my voice is little likely to override their parents voice over several years (even before they were capable of critical thinking).

7. You're right. Let's blame the weapon industry for world war 2 - not for example Hitler This is getting ridiculous.Religion works as a tool of segregation (no matter of this was it's original intent or not). Religion might unite the people of a certain religion, but it doesn't work cross-religion - in fact, its the exact other way around. It's not like the islamic world and the western world is one big happy family, is it?

8. No matter what you believe the intent of the crusades were, they wouldn't have existed if it wasn't for religion.. tons of lives were lost in these crusades, so I draw the conclusion that religion very well has the potential of having lethal consequences. Why? Because people have the tendency of becoming very close with their religion (it has in fact forever been used as a way of identifying oneself or a people), and seeing as there are many religions in this world, it also has the effect of segregating people. And we all know what can potentially happen then..

9. You believe the existance of God to be just as likely as the existance of an invisible unicorn. God is described as being the one who created the universe, so surely this must mean you believe it to be just as likely that an invisible unicorn did this? The big bang theory is a theory, yes (hence the name), but it is based on scientific proof.

10. See point 6.

11. Christianity does in fact teach many things which goes against what the majority of people in the western world today stand for. Without religion, there would be no churches. The churches primary objective is to convey the word of god, or the content of the bible, if you will. Just see point 7.

12. What's rational and what isn't is entirely objective. I know that many people in the middle east will find it rational to stone a woman for having cheated. I'm fully aware of the fact that I'm not able of proving that there isn't a God, just like any believer is unable of proving that there exists an invisible unicorn which follows them around wherever they go.

[QUOTE="escapeoftheape"]

Alright, so recently I have gotten quite fed up with religion. Let me start off, I'm personally an Agnostic - I don't believe in a certain religion, but due to the complexity and intelectually of this world, I'm open to the possibility of there being some kind of a higher being. The reason why I've gotten so fed up lately is that I've noticed that several of my friends are in fact religious.

Now, I don't really have a problem with religious people in general, although I do think it is silly for someone to believe in something written in a book which is supposedly 2000 years old. My problem, is when people "religionize" their lives. This is when someone let their religion control their way of being and dictate certain aspects of their lives, such as nutrition (this is the case for many muslims and jews). At each party, my friend has been looking at me and my other friends with envy whenever we have been consuming alcohol. He has told me that he does indeed want to try it, but that he can't because of his religion. Now, I'm not defending alcohol or drugs, but I do think that it is a shame when people are held back from being who they want and doing what they want, because of religion. There are of course people, who are not like this at all. In fact, sometimes, religion can cause people to not care about being a good person - as it gives them the possibillity to just repent after every "sin" they've commited.

In my opinion, everyone was born an atheist/agnostic. You might state that many people "need" religion, but by saying this you basically say that people who don't have a religious inherit some kind of superiority. I don't think non-religious people are more intelligent than religious people, as I believe that 90% of religious people are religious only because their parents taught them to be. Very few people discover religion as a grown up. Basically, I think religion is a false need given to people by their parents (in the vast majority of cases), and being a need (something you couldn't do without) it makes you weaker.

There are of course other aspects of religion as well, many of which I'd describe as being very dark. I went to a christian junior high school myself, so I have witnessed for 3 years of my life what religion can potentially do to people. Religion has worked as a tool of control and segregation since the beginning - it is the reason for tons of wars and an awful lot of blood has been shed in the name of religion. This still happens today, and i honestly cannot conceive of how anyone would willingly associate themselves with something that is the cause of so much despair. Another thing I noticed, going to that school, was that the people there did indeed have a feeling of superiority. I was looked down upon as if I was a bad person, due to the fact that I was not religious.

Then you have the problem related to religious discussions, or criticizing religions - it is just not accepted among many religious people. Personally, I find it incredibly silly to believe in an invisible man who lives in the sky and watches your every move. In fact, I find it unreasonable for people to expect me to fully understand and respect that they believe in such things. I would not expect them to be able to hold a straight face either, had I told them that I believe in an invisible unicorn that follows me around all the time. Before you ask - yes, these two things are just as silly.

Now, even if you do happen to believe in God, and believe that the stories in The Bible or The Quran are true, then I'm fine with that. However, I find it disturbing when people choose to actually worship the people/someone written about in such a book. Call me disrespectful as much as you want, but I do find it hard to accept that people believe in Noahs ArK and such stories like the one about Jesus rising up from the grave. I cannot help but think of it as anything but a clear sign of ignorance. Religion seems like an easy answer to it all - it makes people less curious about the actual origin of life (as I do not believe in the one described in The Bible), and thus holds the human race back from evolving - not to mention all the wars and violence it is constantly causing.

So, what do you people think, OT? Am I being unreasonable? What's your answer to religion? It would be nice if we could get a little discussion going here.

IAMTHEJOKER88

I thought i would point out some flaws in your argument.

1. In being an Agnostic, and accepting that there may be a higher power in the world, surely that leaves open the possibility that one of the religious traditions of man might actually be right, which you seem to negate.

2. Why would someone believe in a religion, but not act accordingly? If someone was genuinely Jewish, and had Jewsih beliefs, those beliefs would necessitate he act in a certain way. Jews who don't eat pork don't because they genuinely believe that it is bad. That is not limiting their freedom, that is a choice.

3. If someone looks at you with envy when you are drinking alcohol, he is then not a genuine believer, because a true believer would, in accordance with their religion, perceive it as bad. In this way, the example you have highlighted is of someone with limited beliefs, or indoctrinated beliefs (as you say, from their parents for instance).

But the example of your friends' envy shows not only your limited subjectivity on the matter, but also, could envy merely be seen as temptation, which the believer himself might have perceived as bad, and hence refused to act on those temptations. You have made a lot of unjustified assumptions in this example.

4. The genuine believer could not act in the foreknowledge of penance (repenting). That would simply be feigning a belief, and an omniscient God would recognise that, so that person is not a believer. Hence your claim that some people believe solely for the sake of doing evil or for the reason to do evil, is not only paradoxical were he a true beliver, but somewhat irrelevant if God truly knows.

5. Why do needs make you weaker? What an extraordinary thing to say. The capacity and my 'need' for love does not make me weak, it empowers me. Again this is a subjective and debatable point but what you have said is interesting.

6. Saying that 90% of people have indoctrinated beliefs is rather high in my opinion. Many turn to God on the brink of despair, which finds many of us, or when they cannot explain particular circumstances. Indoctrination is a strong element, but in the modern world, things such as the Internet and the exposure to different views on television or theories of science help to downplay that.

7. Religion itself is not a tool of segregation and control, it is the Churches that act in the name of the religion that make it seem so. There is a difference.

8. Is it not understandable that people feel superior for believing? They feel as though they know better, and that we non-believers are either ignorant, foolish, or simply wrong. Would you blame Einstein for feeling superior to his students for knowing better than they did?

9. Man fears the unknown. So using religion as an explanatory tool is not as silly as you make it out to be. By comparing God to an invisible unicorn has derogatorive connotations. Yes, in terms of methodical science, either one seems just as likely, but that negates the point of faith. To belief in that which you cannot prove.

10. Again, why believe in the stories/doctrines of a religion, and then not act accordingly? I would have more respect for the Christian man who says he believes, and then actually attends Church every Sunday, or prays etc, than the man who believes, but does nothing to show it.

11. Man is perfectly capable of causing wars without religion. Hitler was known as secularist Philosopher king, and although acted in accordance with some strong Roman Catholic views, drew on many aspects of Plato in 'The Republic', a book which holds an agnostic tone.

12. You could well say religion is psychological evolution, but the evolution of man is long and continuous process. Just because the withdrawal, as it seems in a more secularist world, seems longwinded, does not necessarily mean that relgion is holding us back. Rather, man is simply progressing as it should. You are like a marathon runner who gets annoyed he hasn't finished the race while only running a mile.

I might be being critical for the sake of being critical, as i am not going to disclose my own views on the matter, but i just wanted to point you some flaws in your argument, because in many instances, i simply think you are wrong.

1. Well, maybe I am an atheist. My point is merely that even if you do dismiss the big bang theory, and believe in a creator, I feel like it's craziness to actually worship this "creator". There is a difference between believing in a god, or a creator, than to be religious (and follow the texts written in some old book).

2. Because both the Quran and the Bible contain some texts which can only be described as evil - many of them are extremely discriminating. It should be possible to modernize a religion to make it fit in with todays world.

3. Why is he not a true believer? IMO that is his human side coming into visibility. Of course he would want to drink when he sees how much joy others get from it, no matter if he knows his religion forbids it or not. It doesn't have anything to do with being a believer, it's just a part of being human.

4. Not necessarily doing evil, but they might not make as big of an effort in life only due to the fact that they know that if anything goes wrong, they can just repent. I have met several christians who have used this as a way to justify not making an effort. The Bible teaches you to be like Jesus, yet today christians drive past slums in their SUV's on the way to church. Are they not christians? I think they are, they just don't bother making an effort - they're too human to give away all their belongings. Besides, they know they can just repent and then everything will be okay.

5. I guess number 4 answered this. People don't really bother making an effort, as they know they can just repent later on and everything will be fine. One can also compare the HDI's of countrys of certain religions.. Even branches within christianity. Look at Europe - protestant countries are rich, catholic countries are in the middle, and orthodox countries are poor. Now, I don't know a whole lot about the different branches of christainity.. But I know that the mentality of protestants is something along the lines of "if I don't succeed, I must try even harder", whereas in the Catholic church there is room for confession etc. It makes it easier to not give a f when you know everything will be fine afterwards as you can just confess to the priest.

6. IMO those who become religious in later years cannot compare in size compared to those who were introduced to it by their parents. If your parents told you all the time since you were born that christianity was the way to go, very few people would let anything written on the internet have any effect on them at all. I know that most people I know who were raised a christian or a muslim, are impossible to convert back to atheism/agnosticism.

7. If you and me are having an argument, it is because we have different opinions. Wars are created because of this - differencies. Wether it be opinions, skin color, culture or.. well, religion. It segregates people, created differencies between them, which many times throughout history has led to war and despair.

8. I'm not saying it's not understandable to feel superior to someone if you feel like you know something they don't - I'm saying that this is a problem and a bad side of religion. Again, this makes for heated conflicts with the potential of becoming violent and even lethal. Look at the crusades.

9. If you think that an invisible unicorn is just as likely to be the creator of the universe as the big bang theory, I'm afraid we have a disagreement. This is why I wrote that religious people should not expect people to keep a straight face when hearing about what they believe in - as it seems incredibly silly to those of us who are not religious. I don't feel like i deserve to be labeled as something as negative as "disrespectful" because I criticize a religion, a persons belief.

10. I don't base my respect of a person on what he or she believes in. This is because i truly believe that 90% of believers had their beliefs indutrinated by their parents or priests. Those little kids didn't even get to have a say - they were forced into it. I'm not denying that I probably would have been religious too, if my parents had raised me to be so (I was raised mainly by my mom, and while she considers herself a christian, she never attends church etc). Because of this, I don't consider "intelligence" and "religiousness" as two different things. I hate using the word, as it has such a negative and "offensive" ring to it, but it's brainwashing. Nothing more, nothing less.

11. See point number 7.. There are many causes for wars, and religion is one of them. Thus, without religion - there would be less war. IMO religion is a false need which doesn't have to be there. This is why I don't justify fighting over food with fighting over religious beliefs.

12. As more and more information is available to the average man, I find it natural for religion to diminish more and more. The rational side of man will always hold proven facts over magic, at least that's what I think.

I hope this cleared things up a little. I would of course be happy for another reply from you.

I am most definitely a Christian. In fact I'm a Roman Catholic Seminarian studying for the priesthood, for the most part being religious is a requirement. ferrari2001

Alright, so recently I have gotten quite fed up with religion. Let me start off, I'm personally an Agnostic - I don't believe in a certain religion, but due to the complexity and intelectually of this world, I'm open to the possibility of there being some kind of a higher being. The reason why I've gotten so fed up lately is that I've noticed that several of my friends are in fact religious.

Now, I don't really have a problem with religious people in general, although I do think it is silly for someone to believe in something written in a book which is supposedly 2000 years old. My problem, is when people "religionize" their lives. This is when someone let their religion control their way of being and dictate certain aspects of their lives, such as nutrition (this is the case for many muslims and jews). At each party, my friend has been looking at me and my other friends with envy whenever we have been consuming alcohol. He has told me that he does indeed want to try it, but that he can't because of his religion. Now, I'm not defending alcohol or drugs, but I do think that it is a shame when people are held back from being who they want and doing what they want, because of religion. There are of course people, who are not like this at all. In fact, sometimes, religion can cause people to not care about being a good person - as it gives them the possibillity to just repent after every "sin" they've commited.

In my opinion, everyone was born an atheist/agnostic. You might state that many people "need" religion, but by saying this you basically say that people who don't have a religious inherit some kind of superiority. I don't think non-religious people are more intelligent than religious people, as I believe that 90% of religious people are religious only because their parents taught them to be. Very few people discover religion as a grown up. Basically, I think religion is a false need given to people by their parents (in the vast majority of cases), and being a need (something you couldn't do without) it makes you weaker.

There are of course other aspects of religion as well, many of which I'd describe as being very dark. I went to a christian junior high school myself, so I have witnessed for 3 years of my life what religion can potentially do to people. Religion has worked as a tool of control and segregation since the beginning - it is the reason for tons of wars and an awful lot of blood has been shed in the name of religion. This still happens today, and i honestly cannot conceive of how anyone would willingly associate themselves with something that is the cause of so much despair. Another thing I noticed, going to that school, was that the people there did indeed have a feeling of superiority. I was looked down upon as if I was a bad person, due to the fact that I was not religious.

Then you have the problem related to religious discussions, or criticizing religions - it is just not accepted among many religious people. Personally, I find it incredibly silly to believe in an invisible man who lives in the sky and watches your every move. In fact, I find it unreasonable for people to expect me to fully understand and respect that they believe in such things. I would not expect them to be able to hold a straight face either, had I told them that I believe in an invisible unicorn that follows me around all the time. Before you ask - yes, these two things are just as silly.

Now, even if you do happen to believe in God, and believe that the stories in The Bible or The Quran are true, then I'm fine with that. However, I find it disturbing when people choose to actually worship the people/someone written about in such a book. Call me disrespectful as much as you want, but I do find it hard to accept that people believe in Noahs ArK and such stories like the one about Jesus rising up from the grave. I cannot help but think of it as anything but a clear sign of ignorance. Religion seems like an easy answer to it all - it makes people less curious about the actual origin of life (as I do not believe in the one described in The Bible), and thus holds the human race back from evolving - not to mention all the wars and violence it is constantly causing.

So, what do you people think, OT? Am I being unreasonable? What's your answer to religion? It would be nice if we could get a little discussion going here.

Im Muslim and the burqa is not needed, all you illiterate muslims make me look bad. (terrorist=not muslim, woman oppressor=not muslim, the list goes on) All that is required in Islam is the women to dress decently, no headscarf needed, just no tight clothes or revealing legs, etc, Most men muslim or not would agree that they wouldn't want their wives flaunting their bodies on the street, its for their eyes only. Auron your right it has been like that for ages while doing trades etc, the only difference now is Islamophobia is intact.. from the help of the brainwashing media of courseSPBoss

actually, in countries like sweden and norway its not socially accepted to have an "islamophobic" attitude. this is why none of the videos i showed you are swedish or norwegian productions. political correctness and extreme liberalism is the only accepted mentality in these two countries.

sure, there are many people who openly say they feel like there are too many immigrants here.. but saying things like these will generally mean that youll get looked down upon. i dont think the media has anything to do with islamophobia in scandinavia. in fact, islamophobia is not very common here at all..