@garywood69: During e3 if you pre-ordered 3 games at once you could get 30% off your order.

> dynamic and reactive enemies

Are you trolling or are you actually that fucking dense? Dynamic and reactive? 90% of the enemies in OoT have a set pattern of > move to the side while blocking > attack and occasionally jumping in the case of minibosses. The AI in OoT is only slightly better than ALTTP because they maneuver around you to breach your defenses. Fair enough - the enemy AI is slightly better in OoT, but it doesn't change a damn thing because that very same AI has a set pattern that you get used to early on into the game so none of the enemies can kill you. In ALTTP, the unpredictability of the AI causes you to react to the situation as it comes, rather than what you've been hard wired to remember. You never know how the fight will play out so you need to be on your toes - but in OoT you always know what to expect from the enemy movement and attack patterns.

"I also like how you mentioned Dark Link and Iron Knuckes, these two fights were better than anything ALTTP could muster. It makes it even worse for your argument."

If my argument was to completely and conclusively say all of OoT's enemies were predictable and stupid, then yeah - that certainly would make it worse for my arguments, but it wasn't and it doesn't. If all enemies in the game were like the Iron Knuckle and all minibosses were like Dark Link, then OoT would have the greatest combat out of any zelda game period.

"Don't tell me that's better than the 3D combat of OOT which while not great went far beyond just hitting shit rushing you with your sword."

Okay I'll tell you exactly that. It's better than the 3D combat of OOT which while not great simply changed the formula from hitting shit rushing you with your sword to hitting shit rushing with your sword after waiting 5 seconds for them to hit your shield. LUL Z TRGETING IZ SO INNOVATIV DA COMBAT IS SO REACTIVE N DA ENEMIES R SO SMRT. The way you describe it makes me think that you're confusing this for a Dark Souls discussion or something. Quit exaggerating the quality of OoT's combat - we both know it's just a game of hit shield > get shield hit > attack enemy for 90% of the game's enemies besides the ones that shoot projectiles at you.

"It's the highest rated game ever. It topped more lists than any other game."

I know I've said this countless times but I'll say it again. Who fucking cares? People have nostalgic hard ons for it. Always have, always will. People have gone so far as to call it the greatest video game in existence, which is fucking insane on so many levels. There are so many games that did what OoT did and did it better [including actual Zelda games for that matter] and people give that title to OoT? If that's not a nostalgic bias I don't know what is. I'm sorry you and so many people like to wear your rose coloured goggles but OoT is an incredibly flawed game, and because it has flaws that aren't in later installments, it's completely illogical to hail it as the best. I say this same thing to the people that say Mario 64 is better than the Galaxy games or 3D World despite it having arguably the worst platforming in the entire series. Nostalgia - that's the only reason these games are so critically acclaimed.

"You literally fight 2 Lizalfos in OOT and 1 Dinolfos" Oh sweet-pea, you know I'm not just talking about Lizalfo's and Dinolfo's. Almost every enemy in the game follows a repititious pattern of block > attack> > block> attack > move to the side > block > attack.

"Enemies blocked, reacted, moved around you, focused on you, dodged your attacks in OOT." HAH. Are you actually trying to insinuate that OoT had a competent AI that anticipated your moves and reacted to them? Now you're really treading on thin ice. The only enemy that did that was Dark Link - the rest just had a few set moves and patterns that were easy as hell to find and exploit. Even the more complicated enemies like the gerudo's had patterns that were exploitable.

"It's hilarious you're actually trying to pain the combat of ALTTP as something special when it was pure shit." Not trying to paint it as something special - just something better than OoT, which has one of the worst combat systems in the entire series. ALTTP required more out of you - which I already explained. Was it perfect? No, but at least it wasn't repetitious. You had to think on your feet and utilize every item at your disposal at times. When did OoT ever require that out of you? When were enemies actually a threat? You can off-handedly call ALTTP easy if you want, and sure - it isn't the HARDEST game in the series, but it's a hell of a lot more challenging than OoT, and if you deny that then you're bluffing. plain and simple.

"2D combat in ALTTP was shit. They did what they could with very limited resources. There's no argument." The combat was no different than any other 2D zelda at it's core. Later games just refined what ALTTP did. You see an enemy in front of you, you hit it with your sword, you spin attack when they aggro around you. I agree that TMC has a better combat system, with all the different sword techniques and what not, but that's a refinement of what ALTTP established - and if you want to go there, then guess what? Twilight Princess has an infinitely better combat system than OoT. What's your point? Why even bother bringing TMC up?

"Yeah it was so awkward that it is widely regarded as the best game of all time. Get over yourself." And Final Fantasy VII is also regarded as the best game in the series by many publications. Irr-fucking-elevant. Best game of all time? If you're actually going to insinuate that OoT is the greatest game of all time THEN we're getting into colossal fanboy territory because there's absolutely no way that's remotely true, and you know it. It was absolutely an awkward transition - in the same way Mario 64 was an awkward transition from the 2D games. There were kinks to work through - as is the case with any game making the transition into 3D.

"That alone makes the combat in OOT better than in a Link To The Past. Enemies actually bothered defending and wouldn't just bum rush you yet you find a source of complaint in that?" Oh yeah because it's so strategic to sit around waiting with your shield up and then mashing A and putting your shield up again and then mashing a till it's dead.

"Iron Knuckes didn't behave like that"

The one enemy in the game that's actually well designed. All of the enemies in OoT should have been like that.

"Re-Dead didn't behave like that" You're right. There's even less strategy to killing Re-dead's - mash A before they grope you, they're almost no threat to you at all - that's why 90% of the time you come across them, you just run past them because there's no point in fighting them.

"Deku Scrubs" Shield up wait for it to shoot then attack and it's out of it's flower.

"Dead Hand" Dead hand's aren't an OoT exclusive enemy ese. ALTTP has them too.

"Moblins" You don't so much fight the moblins as you do sneak up behind them and shoot them with an arrow, or get behind them and mash A. No real strategy, similarly to the Re-Dead.

The only reason I put emphasis on the Wolfos, Stalfos and Lizalfos is because they make up the majority of the game's enemies. Skulltula's, Deku Baba's [although you don't HAVE to put your shield up, but you should], Tike-Tike's, etc are also like that. Wait with your shield up and attack - that's how 90% of the game's enemies go.

And then there's the bosses, which are even more of a joke. Use item at right moment > attack > repeat twice more. ALTPP on the otherhand.. you could kill them any number of ways, and they were way more of a threat to you.

"Z-targeting was optional." Yeah sure, try playing the game without using it.

"There was literally a single strategy in ALTTP, hit and run. Sword strike, step back, sword strike, set back." Except no. How far into ALTTP did you actually get? That's only the case for like, the first 3 dungeons when enemies are in small groups. In the dark world things become a lot more tricky, they aggro around you and you have to create distance between like 5 enemies at the same time, encouraging you to utilize other items like bombs and the fire rod just to clear the space. In OoT, what happens when you get aggro'd? Z target one of them and hop to the side with your shield up, fight them like normal > ???? ? PROFIT!! When did OoT ever require you to utilize your entire arsenal to survive? When did it ever make you feel like you needed to survive? The game is easy as hell.

ALTTP is such a better, more polished game in comparison it's amazing that we're even having this discussion. It perfected the formula in the same way Mario 3 perfected the 2D platforming formula. The transition into 3D was an awkward one, as was the case with many different franchises, not just Zelda - and it needed serious fine-tuning, but OoT still set awful trends for the series that didn't disappear till 2013 with ALBW.

@Juub1990:

"The point I was making wasn't that ALTTP has better exploration, it was that OOT had plenty of exploration to be had, something you were arguing against earlier."

My point wasn't that OoT didn't have exploration, it's that they made exploration separate from the main presentation. In ALTTP you had to explore, elsewise you wouldn't beat the game. It was an adventure, forcing you to take in the world and figure everything out, albeit to a lesser extent to the original Zelda. OoT holds your hand throughout the whole game. Even when you said you couldn't figure out how to get to the forest temple, all you'd had to have done in that situation is talk to Navi and you'd know where to go.

"Stalfos in OOT for example defended against you and raised their shields when you were about to strike, they could jump over your head and try to attack you from behind." The strategy for beating Stalfo's is almost exactly the same as every other enemy. Block, wait for an opening, strike. With Stalfo's the only difference is that you wait for them to jump so you can attack their backs, because Z targeting literally lets you follow the target no matter what. I mean shit if you wanted to talk about a mini boss with good AI, then why didn't you mention Dark Link?

Yes, OoT did have better AI than ALTTP, I'll concede on that - but the actual COMBAT flowed better. You had to maneuver around your enemies and create distance between you both to strike. There was much more variety to it than the simple wait and attack pattern of OoT. Z targeting also makes enemies more frustrating and tedious to kill, like the bats and pretty much all flying enemies. It creates situations that are more frustrating than punishing yet fun, and with the kee's it's probably most prevalent in the ice cave.

@Juub1990:

"No because I actually know someone who absolutely hates Chrono Trigger and JRPG's in general and didn't find ET as terrible as advertised."

His subjective enjoyment of the game is irrelevant, considering that Chrono Trigger's a technical marvel and objectively perfect in mechanics and core structure, while E.T is not. That's what I mean by objective superiority - if you actually think the notion that CT is better than ET is subjective then I don't know what to tell you man, besides that's fucking bullshit.

"As soon as you leave Kokiri Forest you can decide to head on to Kakariko Village, Market, Lon Lon Ranch, Lake Hylia or Zora's River among other different places."

Lon Lon Ranch is one of the few locations in the game that allows you to go off the beaten path and do side objectives, with the exception of the fetch quests that lead up to the Biggoron Sword. Could you go to all those other locations? Sure - but good luck actually doing anything there if you haven't progressed far enough in the story to get an item or song for you to actually progress down those paths. Stop taking my words out of context to suit your argument - because I never once implied that OoT didn't have any exploration - I said it didn't have 'true' exploration. As for what true exploration is, I already explained it. ALTTP required you to explore the world to progress in the story. It required you to figure shit out for yourself by interacting with the world. Ocarina of Time never requires that of you - the exploration is just an optional diversion, rather than a key part of the game. And for a series that established itself as an ADVENTURE game, Ocarina of Time does a piss poor job of conveying that, because you can beat the game without exploring the world at all. If you honestly can't understand what I'm explaining to you, then I think it's more than clear which game you grew up playing

"The combat had no sense of flow and it was literally just enemies rushing you and you hitting them with your sword to push them away. It was also wonky as there was no way to target enemies and focus on them. For example, a Dark Nut could charge you and hit you on the top right of your head by grazing you with his sword. The combat in A Link To The Past was as good as the combat in a Kirby game, which is to say, not at all. It also wasn't 3D. I would agree Minish Cap had better combat but ALTTP had a joke of a combat system."

LOL. Now you're trying to discredit ALTTP's combat simply to continue putting OoT on a pedestal? To call you a fanboy is an understatement. ALTTP required you to maneuver yourself and use the environment to your advantage, creating space between you and your enemies so you could attack and make the kill, not unlike the fight with the Iron Knuckle in OoT, which was the only point in the game where the combat was good. Just because you suck at ALTTP doesn't make the combat a joke. At least the combat actually requires you to do shit other than wait around for the enemy to attack you

@nyadc: Yeah I can dig that. I'm not sure if mine is an HDTV though.. it doesn't have HDMI inputs, just those HD composite cables you'd normally find on an xbox 360. I guess that counts.

I do know that it classifies as a "Hi-Scan" display, which I think means it can output HD resolutions.

@nyadc: If we're upscaling to 720p then wouldn't it be better to hook my DC up to my HDTV instead of the CRT?

@nyadc: No I'm using composite cables.. blasphemous I know. I know the DC can output 480i with a VGA cable but wouldn't 720p stretch the image and make it look fugly? Does my tv even output 480i? I think it does, since the "High-scan" models are supposed to be able to output up to 1080i.. but then I'm no expert on this stuff by any means

@Juub1990:

Oh there's absolutely such a thing as objective superiority between games, to a certain degree. Chrono Trigger is better than E.T, for example.

"See an eye shoot it? Yeah because that's all the puzzles are made of right?"

A lot of them follow that trend of simplicity and lack of thought, yes.

"How about Lake Hylia, Death Mountain, Gerudo's Valley, Gerudo's Fortress, Haunted Wasteland, the Graveyard?"

None of those locations feature any true exploration. They're just there as part of the tour - with a few secrets thrown in simply because. There's no sense of adventure - it's all guided by the narrative. Which, may I remind you - blocks off certain paths until you're supposed to go there.

"I completed the Fire Temple before the Forest Temple in my first play through specifically because I didn't know how to access the Forest Temple at the time. You're actually rewarded by branching off the beaten paths with upgrades, items or power-ups. How many optional items are there in the game again? Did you know Nayru's Love and the Biggoron's Sword are both optional?"

Yes, you can technically complete temples out of order - but that's not the intention of the developer and going out of sequence in OoT isn't the same as say, A Link Between Worlds, where you literally can complete the dungeons in any order because the game isn't linear. But sequence breaking doesn't at all absolve the fact that OoT is a linear game. Also, I should remind you that yes - while you can find hidden items in the game, you're still missing my point completely - OoT still breaks the theme of "adventuring" in a large world ripe for exploration. Throwing a cave or a breakable wall here and there may count as exploration to you, but it's not the true exploration that it's predecessors established. On top of it all, exploration isn't key to completing the game - which completely destroys the entire spirit of Zelda. Remember ALTTP? It gave you direction to an extent but most of it was up to you to decide where you're gonna go and how you're gonna get there. You had to explore to find integral items to progress, or simply progress in general. If you wanted to progress through the game, you had to use your head and figure it out. OoT's more cinematic, but that's a double edged sword when the narrative is guiding you through the whole game.

"Yes, the combat was decent for a 3D adventure game. Can you name many games with a better real-time combat system released in 1998 or before?"

A Link to the Past. easy answer. The only time OoT's combat was in any way decent was during the Iron Knuckle fights because it was up to you to decide to pace of the battle. rather than waiting for an opening and spamming A you had to actually maneuver yourself around the battlefield and fight, rather than simply playing the waiting game - which is 90% of OoT's shitty combat.

"Seems you weren't even old enough to play it in 1998."

HAH. That's fucking rich. Anyone that criticizes the object of your nostalgic bias couldn't POSSIBLY have grown up with it too, right? I mean there's no way anyone could have owned an N64 as a kid and simply didn't think OoT was the greatest thing since sliced bread.