@Chutebox: Is the core issue that people are increasing their consumption out of line with cost growth?
People spending more money than they should on things not "needed." I'm not talking about groceries or necesities. I'm talking about designer clothing (shop at Ross!), new cars or expensive cars instead of cheaper/used, etc.
From my perspective at least.
My brother in law is a good example. He and his wife make a good amount of money, but in the span of two years they bought a motor home, boat, and two cars.
Average cost of a new car is over $35K. Average US wage is less than $45K. Average cost of a used car is over $20K. This isn’t even accounting for other needs. That‘s not a lot of room to budget out of that scenario.
this is crazy to me. what % of income does the typical car buyer spend on a new car?
Here's a good take on it: https://www.creditdonkey.com/spend-car.html
Anywhere from 10%-36%. Obviously the less you make the more you would likely need to spend on a car as a percent of income. If you average car used car is 20K then for a 4 year loan you would already be at 5K a year before taxes, maintenance, insurance or even APR%.
Here's a good graph:
From the article: 10% of your salary: If you want to be frugal about buying a car, stick to 10% of your annual salary. If you make $50,000 per year, that means you can spend $5,000.
That's probably not feasible for the average driver. This rule may only work if you need a car to literally get from Point A to Point B.
Does spending 10% of your salary make sense? If you make $50,000 per year, this probably won't work. That leaves you $5,000 for a car, which may or may not fit within your car expectations.
I decided to make this topic as an informational post so that users can understand what is and isn't cloud gaming and how you can use it RIGHT NOW!
First let me talk a bit about my experience. I was an advocate of digital distribution models, I followed the vaporware Phantom Console for years and subscribed to GameTap, both digital subscription services with no physical media. I also enrolled in Onlive and have been using Sony's remote play since the PS3 days til now. For all intents and purposes the use of a thin client to connect to another device and use in a remote scenario is basis of cloud computing. "Cloud" really refers to nothing more than remote hosted hardware resources. The "cloud" could be your own home, a buddies house, or any number of remote resources. Generally to be considered a true "cloud" it would need to be accessible across the internet but others would state that simply using network based protocols would be enough to quality as "cloud" based.
Next let's define it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_gaming
Cloud gaming is an umbrella term used to describe a form of online game distribution. The most common methods of cloud gaming currently are video (or pixel) streaming and file streaming.
"Cloud gaming", also in some cases called "gaming on demand", is a type of online gaming that allows direct and on-demand video streaming of games onto computers, consoles and mobile devices, similar to video on demand, through the use of a thin client. The actual game is stored, executed, and rendered on the remote operator's or game company's server and the video results are streamed directly to a consumer's computers over the internet.[7] This allows access to games without the need of a console and largely makes the capability of the user's computer unimportant, as the server is the system that is running the processing needs.[16][17] The controls and button presses from the user are transmitted directly to the server, where they are recorded, and the server then sends back the game's response to the input controls. Companies that use this type of cloud gaming include NVIDIA (GeForce NOW), LOUDPLAY, Playkey, PlayGiga, CiiNOW, Ubitus.
Gaming on demand is a game service which takes advantage of a broadband connection, large server clusters, encryption and compression to stream game content to a subscriber's device. Users can play games without downloading or installing the actual game. Game content is not stored on the user's hard drive and game code execution occurs primarily at the server cluster, so the subscriber can use a less powerful computer to play the game than the game would normally require, since the server does all performance-intensive operations usually done by the end user's computer.[18][19] Most cloud gaming platforms are closed and proprietary; the first open-source cloud gaming platform was only released in April, 2013.[20]
P2Pcloudless gaming – a type of cloud gaming, where remote computers for game execution represented by community of individuals. Critical difference from cloud gaming is that game is executed on actual PC and it is streamed on one-to-one basis. The actual game is stored, executed, and rendered on the remote computer station and the video results are streamed directly to a consumer’s computer over the internet. P2P cloudless gaming allows closing latency gap: remote computer could be located within one internet provider. Network protocol in P2P cloud gaming smartly chooses the best fit between remote computer and consumer’s device.
Cloud gaming based on file streaming, also known as progressive downloading, deploys a thin client in which the actual game is run on the user's gaming device such as a mobile device, a PC or a console. A small part of a game, usually less than 5% of the total game size, is downloaded initially so that the gamer can start playing quickly. The remaining game content is downloaded to the end user's device while playing. This allows instant access to games with low bandwidth Internet connections without lag. The cloud is used for providing a scalable way of streaming the game content and big data analysis. Cloud gaming based on file streaming requires a device that has the hardware capabilities to operate the game. Often, downloaded game content is stored on the end user's device where it is cached. Companies that use this type of cloud gaming include Kalydo, Approxy and SpawnApps.[21]
Now that we have a working definition we can see a very specific type that has been used in consoles for decades: P2P cloudless gaming. This is the most common type that users will experience and preferably the best method to experience. Here are some notable consoles.
For use with PCs
Nvidia Shield Portable
Through Nvidia's GameStream suite, Shield Portable allows the streaming of games running on a desktop PC equipped with a GeForce GTX 650 or higher video card (formerly known as GeForce PC Streaming). The Android 4.4.2 update for Shield Portable adds Console Mode, which allows a Shield Portable to be connected to a TV at either 720p, 1080p or 4K resolution (either using a wireless connection or MicroHDMI) and controlled with a Bluetooth controller, and software for mapping on-screen control buttons to the device's hardware buttons for Android games which do not natively support them.[7][8]Nvidia Shield Portable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield_Portable
Alongside the exclusive games available through Nvidia's own TegraZone market and GeForce NOW game-streaming service, Shield Portable can also access the Google Play store, as with most other Android-based devices.[9][10]
Nintendo Wii U
Most people don't think of it as a cloud device, but it meets the technical definition. The Wireless connection is actually a custom Wifi configuration and the actual game runs remotely on the Wii U itself. While not internet capable it still is available for use.
Microsoft Xbox One: https://support.xbox.com/en-US/games/game-setup/how-to-use-game-streaming
Microsoft currently allows Windows 10 users to stream Xbox One games while on the same home network. Unfortunately, like the Wii U this is relegated to be designed for use with close proximity. There are VPNs you could use but that often results in a poorer experience. For those who would like to game on a iphone/ipad this is also OneCast.https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/onecast-xbox-game-streaming/id1398182637?mt=8
If you have an Xbox One and would like to stream I highly recommend it. Parred with a GamePass or games with Gold sub and you would have a fantastic experience in
Sony:
Disclaimer, here's the one I use and the simple reason is that I've been interested in cloud gaming since its inception even before the PS3 and so far Sony has been the main advocate of cloud gaming.
Many gamers don't realize that the PS3 and PSP remote play was supported over internet by a limited number of games. https://manuals.playstation.net/document/en/ps3/current/remoteplay/remoteinternet.html
Many people are familiar with PS Now, something else I have been subscribed to for some time. But the strength of PS Now was only recently revealed with it's new download option. But before we get into that, let's talk about Remote Play and what support it. Remote Play is available on PC and Mac, Vita, PSTV, as well as select Android tablets and devices. https://remoteplay.dl.playstation.net/remoteplay/lang/en/index.html The is a PS4 remote play app for android however it has recently lost support. Conversely Apple users can download the R-Play app https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/r-play-remote-play-for-ps4/id1222889057?mt=8. The best part is that remote play is usable outside of your home network and any game you download, including ones from PS Now are playable via Remote Play.
Use case: I own a Vita , Iphone, Ipad, PSTV, and PS4.
I have my PS4 hooked to my 4KTV downstairs and hard wired to my router. Upstairs in my bedroom I have a PSTV connected via a powerline adapter and am able to play my PS4 games on my bedroom TV when the TV downstairs is in use. Further I can also opt to use either my Vita, iPhone, or iPad to game outside of my home via the internet. I can also browse and download games via PS Now or play games that are on disc inside my PS4. The best part, Remote Play is free and working right now. If you have a PS4 Pro you can even stream games up to 1080P. All for free!
So... guys. I wrote this to encourage to not fear cloud gaming but encourage you to try it out now and explore it!
Functional, yes! Good or workable, no. You again missed his point entirely. He was talking about the data centers in place to handle the load not who did it first. If being first is your criteria then OnLine and Gaikai did it first than Sony and Sony actually acquired it.
Coming back to the point he raised about catching up. You do know how shit PS Now currently is with its load balancing issues! If significant no. of users try to use PS Now, Sony don't serve them but actually add them to the queue to wait for their turn - quite opposite of play on any device anywhere whenever you want mantra. This again ties directly to his point about Cloud infrastructure which SOny doesn't have. Whether MS will have the same or not remains to be seen however they definitely have an edge due to their cloud presence and among the top 3 cloud providers.
Lastly, Sony haven't expanded or done anything to to scale their offerings, they can't because for PS3 games which is the bulk of the library they need to design the custom hardware which MS won't have to deal with. Their games already run inside a VM so they have abstracted the hardware from the OS much much better than Sony. And as far as I remember MS isn't going the Sony route of making custom PS3 hardware for servers, that link you shared in our last conversation was very vague and in no confirms MS making servers from Xbox hardware.
WTF are you spewing this time.
PS Now is not only functional it does work and is making sony allot of cash.
Sony doesn't need to even own data centers dude,they are doing quite fine.
This is the same bullshit of MS is big and has money so it will do better or win which we all know has been debunked time after time once MS fail and fail again and again to beat even Nintendo let alone Sony.
Fact is sony is ahead of MS years ahead and owning data centers is just 1 part of having a working service,as Gaikai and Onlive biggest contribution to sony wasn't data centers or its clouds but the Patents both companies owned and the tech to actually STREAM those games with low latency.
It's not making cash. It's revenue, do I need to explain you or your fellow cows the difference between revenue and profits?
And no, they definitely do need data centers for the problem I mentioned. They can't serve users because of their load balancing issues while having a sub par 720p/30 service. MS and Google won't have the same problems because of their large and world wide data centers. Google in its beta offered the 1080p/60 service while SOny in its production serve 720p/30.
What patents? Sony uses Nvidia/Geforce solution for compression/streaming, if anything that would be proprietary tech of Nvidia which MS already use in their data centers and did I tell you Nvidia also have their streaming service. Lastly if they do have any patents it's irrelevant because Google already did their beta without Sony as much as raising a peep on their offering let alone taking them to the court.
Next time reply to me when you have something concrete because I don't have time to reply to all the sh*t that gets posted on the forums.
Once again you HAVE ABSOLUTELY ZERO IDEA HOW ANY CLOUD INFRASTRUCTURE WORKS!!!!!!.
They don't have servers literally sitting around idle. Servers are spun up or shutdown as needed. EVERY F-ING CLOUD SERVICE WORKS THIS WAY. It's why Netflix get's bogged down around the holidays. They only have enough VMs spun up for their perceived load. If there is a sudden spike in usage and demand, then they have to spin up more VMs which takes time. The queue exists because there is higher demand than expected and they have to create VMs on the fly which is the entire point of the cloud!
See Netflix, probably the largest streaming service has talked about what container scalability means and why it's so important. https://medium.com/netflix-techblog/the-evolution-of-container-usage-at-netflix-3abfc096781b
Better yet, education yourself first on cloud computing before you keep putting your foot in your mouth. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqLcWftIaQI
As for PSNow running 720P/30, its because IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. It sucks up bandwidth which it what users were complaining about earlier in this thread and the only games that can't be run on the PS4 are PS3 games which only hit 720P max anyway. Google is running PC games via their streaming service and the issues you have ARE RELATED TO INTERNET LAST-MILE.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_mile -The last mile is typically the speed bottleneck in communication networks; its bandwidth effectively limits the bandwidth of data that can be delivered to the customer. This is because retail telecommunication networks have the topology of "trees", with relatively few high capacity "trunk" communication channels branching out to feed many final mile "leaves". The final mile links, being the most numerous and thus most expensive part of the system, as well as having to interface with a wide variety of user equipment, are the most difficult to upgrade to new technology. For example, telephone trunklines that carry phone calls between switching centers are made of modern optical fiber, but the last mile is typically twisted pair wires, a technology which has essentially remained unchanged for over a century since the original laying of copper phone cables.
I've was IN THE GOOGLE PROJECT STREAM BETA. I KNOW how their service works for me because I used it and it ran completely terribly. It was pixelated beyond usability and skipped horribly. In no way shape or form was I idiotic enough to assume Google didn't know what they were doing. The reality is there were likely just too many hops between me and their nearest GAMING CAPABLE data center. I keep trying to educate you on this but you CAN'T just use any old server to play high end games on. IT DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT!!!
This is you talking about things you know NOTHING about " MS and Google won't have the same problems because of their large and world wide data centers."
This is me talking about things I do know about: You can't just run games on any old server, different users will have completely different experiences based on their ISP, where they live, what network equipment they have, their network settings, etc.
Look I'm pretty much done with this conversation. Learn something and then maybe we can have a discussion... The fact is people are paying to use a service that you say doesn't work and that is a FACT. I honestly don't know what your issue, but you sit here and claim a service making hundreds of millions of dollars (in the exact industry we are talking about) doesn't work, yet in the same breath say companies who have yet to even launch products won't have the same issues. It's no different than claiming Microsoft was going the rule the gaming industry because they have a lot of money and experience in an unrelated field. It's just plan idiotic to think that, or grossly simplistic.
@Chutebox: Is the core issue that people are increasing their consumption out of line with cost growth?
People spending more money than they should on things not "needed." I'm not talking about groceries or necesities. I'm talking about designer clothing (shop at Ross!), new cars or expensive cars instead of cheaper/used, etc.
From my perspective at least.
My brother in law is a good example. He and his wife make a good amount of money, but in the span of two years they bought a motor home, boat, and two cars.
Average cost of a new car is over $35K. Average US wage is less than $45K. Average cost of a used car is over $20K. This isn’t even accounting for other needs. That‘s not a lot of room to budget out of that scenario.
You're kind of prooving my point there. I live in Cali and I can find plenty of cars for much less than 35k.
https://www.carmax.com/cars?price=20000
over 2k for 20k or less. It's people buying what they want not what is smart to buy.
No it’s the opposite of proving your point though. if I have a family which relies on a vehicle to get to work, grocery shopping, etc. I’m likely looking for a car that has enough space and minimum maintenance and costs. The Times reported your average car is scrap at 106k miles which is when the cost to maintain exceeds the cost to buy and typic because that’s when warranties run out and families are on the hook for the costs of engines and transmissions etc. So yes there are plenty of cars under 20k but when you have requirements of a minivan or AWD due to weather and rural areas with snow, and something with less than 75k on it youre suddenly looking at used 20k vehicle. Yes there are people who spend outside their means but considering the amount of safe guards you have to go through to get a car loan, the fact is cars and much of the cost of living is simply to high. Not everyone is car expect when it comes to buying a car, nor should they have to be to get a reasonably priced and reliable vehicle. Simplifying massive economic defaults on loans down to people picking pretty cars ignores the realities of a broken system.
@Chutebox: Is the core issue that people are increasing their consumption out of line with cost growth?
People spending more money than they should on things not "needed." I'm not talking about groceries or necesities. I'm talking about designer clothing (shop at Ross!), new cars or expensive cars instead of cheaper/used, etc.
From my perspective at least.
My brother in law is a good example. He and his wife make a good amount of money, but in the span of two years they bought a motor home, boat, and two cars.
Average cost of a new car is over $35K. Average US wage is less than $45K. Average cost of a used car is over $20K. This isn’t even accounting for other needs. That‘s not a lot of room to budget out of that scenario.
I think you need another break lol. PSNow exists for a reason man, it's lucrative. Now we have Game Pass and Origin Premier... Just wait for Ubi to jump on board, or Activision after they recover from their whole layoff debacle.
Also, not sure if I was referenced in the OP, as I did post the initial thread about Sony admitting the threat of "cloud gaming" to traditional consoles. If so, haha.
Serious question? Do people remember that digital gaming was primarily a service and that the concept of ownership of media is actually a very new phenomena in human history from the past 50-60 years.
Should be no more than $20 this was a disgusting piece of hardware. They would have done better to put a PSTV in a classic shell and sell PS1 classics on PSN
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