Best story in a Final Fantasy game?

My friend says FFVIII.

But that's his opinion.

VIII's story is interesting and has some extremely exiciting moments, but it doesn't explain time compression or Ultimecia's motivation well (I'd argue it doesn't really explain it at all) and the coincidence the game wants you to buy into is just way too hard to swallow (people who have played the game will know what I'm talking about).

I probably enjoyed FFIX's story the most (it was the most fun/humorous while still talking itself seriously), but when I put my literary analysis/critic crap on, FFX comes out on top. The way it dealt with organized religion was beyond anything else the series has done story-wise. And I thought that Tidus' love/hate relationship with his father was incredibly done as well. The motivations, feelings, and psychology behind their relationship was very sophisticated and believable.

I actually find FFX to be the most sophisticated and artistically accomplished game in the series when considering story, visual design, and soundtrack, but I don't think it comes together as well as FFIX as far as actually being a game is concerned, so that's why FFX is my second favorite while FFIX takes the GreySeal9 crown.

Lets see, my top 3 story wise:

1. FFIX
2. FFVI
3. FFXII

IV was not bad but nothing amazing. Certainly it had some memorable moments. V was forgettable as well as the characters. VI had I think the best all around cast story wise and the best villain. It's not perfect but it was enjoyable from start to finish.

VII was a mess but the first part in Midgar was memorable and my favorite in the story throughout the game. After Midgar, it starts to decline. VIII's problem was that I didn't care for any of the characters in the game including Laguna and Ultimecia. In fact, none of the villains were interesting. Don't even get me started on the ending.

IX had a great cast of characters, especially Vivi. The villain, while not Kefka, felt interesting especially in the end of disk 3. I like the setting, the different races and the main character Zidane was likeable. I also felt it had the best romance in the seires along with IV. Part of the ending however weakens the game in general with the final boss but to me it's not that big of a deal. It's been years since i played IX and I wish to replay it especially after playing most of the series.

X's problem was Tidus. Honestly he didn't feel like the main character in this game. Also I hated all the characters except for Auron so I din't feel bad for Tidus's daddy issues. Plus Seymour was a lame villain. But Sin was awesome. My thoughts on X's use of religion are my thoughts on say TOS using religion. Basically meh but they tried.

XII had that same issue with the main chracters but the story did interest me. That would make me in the minority but Ivalice is a great universe.

Played about 5 hours of XIII but even I noticed the major flaws with the story.

I still need to play and beat I, II, III, and Tactics.

FFVII

XII and VI are definitely my favorites. Still don't understand how anyone over the age of 5 can enjoy X's story. It's sooo bad.AcidSoldner

Oh brother.

You do realize that FFX deals with a multitude of themes that five year olds would not comprehend, right?

I mean, go ahead and say it's bad if you want, but the whole five year old argument is ridiculous. The conflicts around Sin and Yevon are far more sophisticated and adult than Kefka's amusing, but paper-thin trail of destruction. It's FFVI that would appeal more to a younger audience because it's a more standard good and evil story with far less nuance (not to say it's not very good in its own right). Kefka is a completely black and white villain. Seymour and Sin are not. There is far more complexity surrounding Sin than there is Kefka.

I'd really like somebody to actually make a coherent argument (one that includes analysis of themes, character motivation, and story arcs) as to why FFX's story is bad. Not just "Tidus is so annoying!" because how annoying a character is actually has nothing to do with the quality of a story or character for that matter.

(Damn, I've edited the sh!t of this post. :lol: )

VIII's story is interesting and has some extremely exiciting moments, but it doesn't explain time compression or Ultimecia's motivation well (I'd argue it doesn't really explain it at all) and the coincidence the game wants you to buy into is just way too hard to swallow (people who have played the game will know what I'm talking about).

I probably enjoyed FFIX's story the most (it was the most fun/humorous while still talking itself seriously), but when I put my literary analysis/critic crap on, FFX comes out on top. The way it dealt with organized religion was beyond anything else the series has done story-wise. And I thought that Tidus' love/hate relationship with his father was incredibly done as well. The motivations, feelings, and psychology behind their relationship was very sophisticated and believable.

I actually find FFX to be the most sophisticated and artistically accomplished game in the series when considering story, visual design, and soundtrack, but I don't think it comes together as well as FFIX as far as actually being a game is concerned, so that's why FFX is my second favorite while FFIX takes the GreySeal9 crown.

GreySeal9

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

VIII's story is interesting and has some extremely exiciting moments, but it doesn't explain time compression or Ultimecia's motivation well (I'd argue it doesn't really explain it at all) and the coincidence the game wants you to buy into is just way too hard to swallow (people who have played the game will know what I'm talking about).

I probably enjoyed FFIX's story the most (it was the most fun/humorous while still talking itself seriously), but when I put my literary analysis/critic crap on, FFX comes out on top. The way it dealt with organized religion was beyond anything else the series has done story-wise. And I thought that Tidus' love/hate relationship with his father was incredibly done as well. The motivations, feelings, and psychology behind their relationship was very sophisticated and believable.

I actually find FFX to be the most sophisticated and artistically accomplished game in the series when considering story, visual design, and soundtrack, but I don't think it comes together as well as FFIX as far as actually being a game is concerned, so that's why FFX is my second favorite while FFIX takes the GreySeal9 crown.

0diN_7

I think that XIII had some good ideas, but the execution was pretty bad and it becomes a total mess in Gran Pulse.

lol, I'm so pumped to argue on FFX's behalf.

Final Fantasy III(VI)

People hate VIII for various reasons but screw it i'll support it.
As for the question, i quite like IX's story. Been a while since i played VIII but remember it was a little confusing.

To be honest, they can all be quite convoluted.

Of the one I've played, I enjoyed VI the best. I thought it was cool how each character had a different past and different motive for fighting. the only issue I had was that the story is very unfocused in the second half and they could have expanded more on Kefka's character a bit while still making him mysterious. But, overall, I think it was a great story, especially for the time when it originally came out.

I really wanna play VII- X. If I ever get a PS2 I have my work cut out for me.

[QUOTE="AcidSoldner"]XII and VI are definitely my favorites. Still don't understand how anyone over the age of 5 can enjoy X's story. It's sooo bad.GreySeal9

Oh brother.

You do realize that FFX deals with a multitude of themes that five year olds would not comprehend, right?

I mean, go ahead and say it's bad if you want, but the whole five year old argument is ridiculous. The conflicts around Sin and Yevon are far more sophisticated and adult than Kefka's amusing, but paper-thin trail of destruction. It's FFVI that would appeal more to a younger audience because it's a more standard good and evil story with far less nuance (not to say it's not very good in its own right). Kefka is a completely black and white villain. Seymour and Sin are not. There is far more complexity surrounding Sin than there is Kefka.

I'd really like somebody to actually make a coherent argument (one that includes analysis of themes, character motivation, and story arcs) as to why FFX's story is bad. Not just "Tidus is so annoying!" because how annoying a character is actually has nothing to do with the quality of a story or character for that matter.

(Damn, I've edited the sh!t of this post. :lol: )

Tidus is quite possibly one of the worst written characters to ever grace Final Fantasy, and this is coming from a series that embodies the many JRPGs cliches of androgynouspre-teen whiners with stupid looking hair. There isn't a single shread of character development with Tidus. He's the same airheaded dumbass at the end of the story that he was from when you first see him. The guy is dumb as a stick. He constantly makes decisions or says sh!t that makes absolutely no sense, Like at the beginning when he goes into the temple so "save" Yuna, when he has no idea who the hell she is, but he'll just go right into a sacred temple and sh!t all over the town's religious doctrine with the response "Like I care!" Why Tidus is even the main character is beyond me. His only connection to Sin are his daddy issues with Jecht. The story is clearly about Yuna and her quest to sacrifice herself for the sins of Spira. Hell, Auron would have made a more compeling main character. His quest is one of redemption and setting his soul to rest which can only be achieved by killing his best friend, Jecht (there's some real dramatic weight there). But of course some whiny little b!tch with daddy issues is far more compelling right?

The overall plot is just a stupid mess. In the beginning when Tidus joins up with the group to help Yuna on her pligrimige to defeat Sin, they decide to detour for a bit to play Blitzball. Because you know, playing f*cking blitzball is faaar more important than stopping a giant monster who constantly destroys everything in Spira, which in fact, they had just witnessed first hand. But hey, lets go play some Blitzball. During they're little detour Yuna somehow gets kidnapped (the terrible script overly relies on the abduction"plot twist") under nose of her guardians by a team of water polo players. It's not like she couldn't summon one of her Aeons or something. Lulu and Waka at the stadium hear about the kidnapping long, long before Tidus even notices that she is gone. So long in fact, that Lulu explains that they got a call demanding that the Aurochs forfeit the Blitzball game and Lulu had time to run all the way back across town with Tidus leading the rescue effort instead of calling the police or something, and yet Yuna ends up apologizingfor getting kidnapped. That's some great script writting right there. No wait, this is great script writing. Let's not forget about the courageous Chocobo knights who led the charge against Sin despite being the same ones who couldn't kill a Chocobo eater ten minutes before, but lets send them up against Sin anyways (lol). Or how about when Yuna get kidnapped, again, by Rikku and for some reason, Tidus lets her join the party despite the fact that she just attempted to abduct Yuna and murder the entire party (lolwut?). Or how about Rikku's explanation on why the Al Bhed kidnaps summoners so they don't have to needlessly sacrifice themselves, despite that they'll murder the summoners guardians to do so and the fact that stopping a summoner from achieving their destiny will allow Sin to freely roam the land and slaughter millions upon millions of innocent people. The story is just full of these stupid sh!t plot holes so I'm not gonna bother going any further.

And Seymour is quite possibly the most transparently evil antagonist to grace FF. I mean the guy practically summons Lucifer in the beginning of the game to deal with the monsters attacking the Blitzball tourney but not one person seems to question his obviously sinister methods. Or the fact that his entire marriage to Yuna is a sham. Or that the fact tha the uses machinery to combat both Sin and protect himself throughout the entire f*cking gamewhich is cleary against the teachings of Yevon. And not a single person ever question this despite it all happening in plain sight. Let's not forget his amazing character design:

Oh, and let's not forget Wakka, the character with the most absolutely ridiculous weapon by even anime/JRPG standards. A volleyball. Yes, somehow this guy is the guardian of Spira's only hope for survival and he does it all by smacking enemies in the face with a rubber ball. Far more effective than a sharpened blade. What's ironic, and sad, is that Wakka's volleyball ends up being one of the strongest melee weapons in the game, out-damaging both Tidus and Auron despite them having gigantic 5 foot swords.

Auron and the combat system are the only redeeming qualities in this game.

FFX is bad. And you should feel bad for liking it.

My favorite was 6's, I loved Kefka as a villain. I'm playing through IX right now and while it has a good story, I still find 6's to be superior: the queen isn't as convincing of a villain as Kefka is so far.

FFX is bad. And you should feel bad for liking it.

AcidSoldner

What a dumb statement. :lol: @ video game snobs

I've never actually played X but what is snobby about disliking it...?

I don't care if he dislikes it, but saying "you should feel bad for liking it" is condescending as hell.

I don't care if he dislikes it, but saying "you should feel bad for liking it" is condescending as hell.

JML897

I pretty much agree with AcidSoldner with FFX's story. Tidus should not be the main character.

However, I think the battle system and the use of summonings was awesome so I can't call it overall a bad game like FFVIII.

[QUOTE="JML897"]

I don't care if he dislikes it, but saying "you should feel bad for liking it" is condescending as hell.

AcidSoldner

When you post something as condescending as "FFX is bad and you should feel bad for enjoying it", someone's going to call you out for it. If you said all those negative things about the game without continuously attacking fans of the game I would've been able to respect what you were saying in your posts. Basically your posts just reminded me of that "stop liking what I don't like!" image.

Anyway I am sorry that my posts on a video game forum do not live up to your standards. I will try harder next time.

I was going to be more respectful, but the fact that you said "you should feel bad for liking it" makes me feel liberated to point out that your post contains extremely bad analysis.

Tidus is quite possibly one of the worst written characters to ever grace Final Fantasy, and this is coming from a series that embodies the many JRPGs cliches of androgynouspre-teen whiners with stupid looking hair. There isn't a single shread of character development with Tidus. He's the same airheaded dumbass at the end of the story that he was from when you first see him. The guy is dumb as a stick. He constantly makes decisions or says sh!t that makes absolutely no sense, Like at the beginning when he goes into the temple so "save" Yuna, when he has no idea who the hell she is, but he'll just go right into a sacred temple and sh!t all over the town's religious doctrine with the response "Like I care!" Why Tidus is even the main character is beyond me. His only connection to Sin are his daddy issues with Jecht. The story is clearly about Yuna and her quest to sacrifice herself for the sins of Spira. Hell, Auron would have made a more compeling main character. His quest is one of redemption and setting his soul to rest which can only be achieved by killing his best friend, Jecht (there's some real dramatic weight there). But of course some whiny little b!tch with daddy issues is far more compelling right?AcidSoldner

Again, the fact that you find Tidus annoying has nothing to do with the quality of the character, and by extenstion, the story. Tidus could be even more annoying and airheaded than he is and it would have absolutely no impact on the quality of his character. Too many people confuse not liking a character for that character being bad. The fact that Tidus can be so damn stupid sometimes actually gives the character roundness. Sometimes he can be a pretty friendly, decent guy, sometimes he can be a brat. There is absolutely no requirement that a character be likeable. None.

Also, it's extremely ridiculous to say "his only connection to Sin are his daddy issues with Jecht." You do realize that Jecth is Tidus' father, right? :lol: I'd say Jecth being his father is a pretty damn big connection.

Yes, Auron or Yuna could have been the main character, but Tidus was made the player's "avatar" to give an outside-looking-in perspective of Spira. They obviously wanted someone that could see Spira's rituals from the point of view of an outsider.

This is a role-playing game, so the idea of a main character works a little different from a film or novel.

And it's funny that you say that FFXII is one of your favorites because Vaan has even less to do with the story than Tidus.

The overall plot is just a stupid mess. In the beginning when Tidus joins up with the group to help Yuna on her pligrimige to defeat Sin, they decide to detour for a bit to play Blitzball. Because you know, playing f*cking blitzball is faaar more important than stopping a giant monster who constantly destroys everything in Spira, which in fact, they had just witnessed first hand.AcidSoldner

This is nitpicking. People still live their lives during a tragedy. Blitzball is important to Wakka. To expect everybody to just drop everything they enjoy because of Sin doesn't make sense.There is absolutely no reason why the characters can't take a little detour.

The people of Spira had lived with Sin for many years. The task of defeating him was not nearly as urgent as you're trying to make it seem. Yes, it is important, but it's not like it's a pressing emergency. In Spira, Sin is simply a part of life and so is Blitzball. Once something is a part of life, the urgency to address the problem declines somewhat.

But hey, lets go play some Blitzball. During they're little detour Yuna somehow gets kidnapped (the terrible script overly relies on the abduction"plot twist") under nose of her guardians by a team of water polo players. It's not like she couldn't summon one of her Aeons or something. Lulu and Waka at the stadium hear about the kidnapping long, long before Tidus even notices that she is gone. So long in fact, that Lulu explains that they got a call demanding that the Aurochs forfeit the Blitzball game and Lulu had time to run all the way back across town with Tidus leading the rescue effort instead of calling the police or something, and yet Yuna ends up apologizingfor getting kidnapped. That's some great script writting right there. No wait, this is great script writing. Let's not forget about the courageous Chocobo knights who led the charge against Sin despite being the same ones who couldn't kill a Chocobo eater ten minutes before, but lets send them up against Sin anyways (lol).AcidSoldner

I guess there are a few silly plot details in here, but again, mostly nitpicks. You're overreliant on blowing little things out of proportion. Tons of JRPGs use admittedly trite abduction plot devices. FFX is an JRPG, so this is hardly a masterful story when compared to literature and film. And I'm also not going to say the story is perfect because it isn't. But if this is the best you come up with, then there must not be too much wrong with this story.

Also, you don't really have a point with the Chococbo knights nitpick. You're only focusing on a few people who led the charge against Sin.

The laughing scene is such a trite way to try and critisize the story and the only thing particularly wrong with that scene is that the voice actors fail to pull it off convincingly, so it comes across unintentionally funny. I fail to see anything wrong with the concept of the scene tho.

Or how about when Yuna get kidnapped, again, by Rikku and for some reason, Tidus lets her join the party despite the fact that she just attempted to abduct Yuna and murder the entire party (lolwut?).Or how about Rikku's explanation on why the Al Bhed kidnaps summoners so they don't have to needlessly sacrifice themselves, despite that they'll murder the summoners guardians to do so and the fact that stopping a summoner from achieving their destiny will allow Sin to freely roam the land and slaughter millions upon millions of innocent people. The story is just full of these stupid sh!t plot holes so I'm not gonna bother going any further.AcidSolner

It does seem silly that Tidus doesn't have an adverse reaction to what Rikku did, but he knew her. That's why he let her join the party. Maybe the writers should have had Rikku explain her motivation for doing that on the spot.

But the whole bit about the Al Bhed kidnapping summoners is not a plot hole. They are simply weighing the notion of protecting summoners against the value of defeating Sin. After all, do you not recall that Sin continually comes back. That is one of the reasons that the Al Bhed don't think it's worth sacrificing summoners to defeat Sin.

It's funny that you try to imply that FFX is a childish story, yet you analyze the Al Bhed's actions through a black and white moral lense. You think that there is some kind of plot hole because you don't approve of the moral calculation they've made.

And Seymour is quite possibly the most transparently evil antagonist to grace FF.I mean the guy practically summons Lucifer in the beginning of the game to deal with the monsters attacking the Blitzball tourney but not one person seems to question his obviously sinister methods.AcidSolner

This is such a silly, superficial point.

First of all, Anima/=/Lucifer. Just because his Aeon is evil looking doesn't mean that it is evil. Actually, Anima seems to embody pain more than he embodies evil. After all, do you not realize that Yuna acquires Anima at some point (if the player bothers). Does that make her evil as well? Do you not realize that summoners in Spira seem to share the same aeons? Have you not considered that in Spira, Anima is not seen as "sinister"?

That's not to say Seymour is not evil. At some point he became evil. Nobody is going to deny that. But Anima is a piss poor reason to think that everybody should have thought he was evil, even tho he did get rid of the fiends. :roll: According to you, everybody should think he is evil because you think Anima looks scary. lol.

Or the fact that his entire marriage to Yuna is a sham. Or that the fact tha the uses machinery to combat both Sin and protect himself throughout the entire f*cking gamewhich is cleary against the teachings of Yevon. And not a single person ever question this despite it all happening in plain sight.AcidSolder

How do you know nobody questions his actions? It seems to me that everybody is turning a blind eye rather than thinking he's a great guy. Or that they simply blinded by his air of authority and power. Also, though FFX, being a JRPG, makes it pretty clear to player than Seymour is going to be a bad guy (I'm not claiming that the game is super subtle), he doesn't actually initially do anything particularly evil until a bit later. It is not immediately apparent to the characters that the marriage is a sham, even if the game makes it obvious to us, the players.

And if I recall correctly, some people did raise an objection to using machinery to combat Sin.

Funnily enough, you think Tidus is such a dumb airhead, yet he's one of the ones who sees through Seymour.

And I just want to point out that you're bringing up issues that make your "five year olds" comment seem silly. The notion of forbidding machina is a pretty adult concept, don't you think?

Let's not forget his amazing character design:

AcidSoldner

Irrelevant. You may not like this character design, but it really has no real impact on his character. I think his character design is fine. His hair is like that because he is part Guado.

Oh, and let's not forget Wakka, the character with the most absolutely ridiculous weapon by even anime/JRPG standards. A volleyball. Yes, somehow this guy is the guardian of Spira's only hope for survival and he does it all by smacking enemies in the face with a rubber ball. Far more effective than a sharpened blade. What's ironic, and sad, is that Wakka's volleyball ends up being one of the strongest melee weapons in the game, out-damaging both Tidus and Auron despite them having gigantic 5 foot swords.AcidSoldner

Nitpicking.

Yes, his weapon is kind of silly, but does it really matter? No, it really doesn't.

Auron and the combat system are the only redeeming qualities in this game.AcidSolder

Really now? Even if you hate the story, you should be able to see how good the visuals were at the time.

FFX is bad. And you should feel bad for liking it.AcidSolder

Your points are too minor and inconsequential to make anybody feel bad for liking it. At best, you've pointed out a few goofy plot devices that don't quite wash, which makes it no different from other JRPGs. The things you've pointed out are so minor that they do not outweigh the story's strong points.

[QUOTE="AcidSoldner"][QUOTE="JML897"]

I don't care if he dislikes it, but saying "you should feel bad for liking it" is condescending as hell.

JML897

When you post something as condescending as "FFX is bad and you should feel bad for enjoying it", someone's going to call you out for it. If you said all those negative things about the game without continuously attacking fans of the game I would've been able to respect what you were saying in your posts. Basically your posts just reminded me of that "stop liking what I don't like!" image.

Anyway I am sorry that my posts on a video game forum do not live up to your standards. I will try harder next time.

His points are pretty shallow IMO and for every valid point he makes, he makes another very silly point, so he's not going to convince me that I should feel bad for liking the story.

I pretty much agree with AcidSoldner with FFX's story. Tidus should not be the main character.

However, I think the battle system and the use of summonings was awesome so I can't call it overall a bad game like FFVIII.

Seabas989

Why not? How would Tidus work better as a side character? How would that benefit the story?

[QUOTE="Seabas989"]

I pretty much agree with AcidSoldner with FFX's story. Tidus should not be the main character.

However, I think the battle system and the use of summonings was awesome so I can't call it overall a bad game like FFVIII.

GreySeal9

Why not? How would Tidus work better as a side character? How would that benefit the story?

Because Yuna's story is more befitting as a MC then Tidus. It really isn't his story.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="Seabas989"]

I pretty much agree with AcidSoldner with FFX's story. Tidus should not be the main character.

However, I think the battle system and the use of summonings was awesome so I can't call it overall a bad game like FFVIII.

Seabas989

Why not? How would Tidus work better as a side character? How would that benefit the story?

Because Yuna's story is more befitting as a MC then Tidus. It really isn't his story.

I would actually call Yuna an MC, despite not playing as her. By playing through Tidus' perspective, you get an intimate view of Yuna. It's kind of like how you play as Vann in FFXIII, but it's really Ashe's story, tho Tidus has a way bigger personal connection to the events of FFX/Yuna than Vann does to the events of FFXII/Ashe. I'd argue that relegating Tidus to side character status would be more detrimental to the story than the other way around. What would be the purpose of Tidus if not to provide a outside-looking-in view into Spira that gives him more of a resemblance to the player? Not to mention that Tidus' Goodfella-style narration is a strength, tho I suppose that Yuna could narrate in the same way.

It would be different if the story suffered by the player's direct "role" being Tidus. But I really don't see how it does. It just seems like more of a problem people have with Tidus' personality rather than a story flaw.

Don't get me wrong. His personality is a perfectly good reason for not enjoying the story, but I don't think it's good reason to call the story poor.

[QUOTE="AcidSoldner"][QUOTE="JML897"]

I don't care if he dislikes it, but saying "you should feel bad for liking it" is condescending as hell.

JML897

When you post something as condescending as "FFX is bad and you should feel bad for enjoying it", someone's going to call you out for it. If you said all those negative things about the game without continuously attacking fans of the game I would've been able to respect what you were saying in your posts. Basically your posts just reminded me of that "stop liking what I don't like!" image.

Anyway I am sorry that my posts on a video game forum do not live up to your standards. I will try harder next time.

I was going to be more respectful, but the fact that you said "you should feel bad for liking it" makes me feel liberated to point out that your post contains extremely bad analysis.

GreySeal9

Again, the fact that you find Tidus annoying has nothing to do with the quality of the character, and by extenstion, the story. Tidus could be even more annoying and airheaded than he is and it would have absolutely no impact on the quality of his character. Too many people confuse not liking a character for that character being bad. The fact that Tidus can be so damn stupid sometimes actually gives the character roundness. Sometimes he can be a pretty friendly, decent guy, sometimes he can be a brat. There is absolutely no requirement that a character be likeable. None.GreySeal9

And a main character should be likeable, he should be someone the player can relate to considering you're gonna be in his shoes for the next 60 hours. I don't know about you, but I don't relate to annoying people, I usually want to puch them in the face.

Also, it's extremely ridiculous to say "his only connection to Sin are his daddy issues with Jecht." You do realize that Jecth is Tidus' father, right? :lol: I'd say Jecth being his father is a pretty damn big connection.GreySeal9

Yes, Auron or Yuna could have been the main character, but Tidus was made the player's "avatar" to give an outside-looking-in perspective of Spira. They obviously wanted someone that could see Spira's rituals from the point of view of an outsider.

This is a role-playing game, so the idea of a main character works a little different from a film or novel.

And it's funny that you say that FFXII is one of your favorites because Vaan has even less to do with the story than Tidus.GreySeal9

And you point on how "this is role-playing game, so the idea of a main character works a little different from a film or novel" would hold more weight if this was a WRPG. But it's not, JRPGs almost always have predifined main characters, so they need to be a little compelling and well written.

This is nitpicking. People still live their lives during a tragedy. Blitzball is important to Wakka. To expect everybody to just drop everything they enjoy because of Sin doesn't make sense.There is absolutely no reason why the characters can't take a little detour.

The people of Spira had lived with Sin for many years. The task of defeating him was not nearly as urgent as you're trying to make it seem. Yes, it is important, but it's not like it's a pressing emergency. In Spira, Sin is simply a part of life and so is Blitzball. Once something is a part of life, the urgency to address the problem declines somewhat.GreySeal9

I guess there are a few silly plot details in here, but again, mostly nitpicks. You're overreliant on blowing little things out of proportion. Tons of JRPGs use admittedly trite abduction plot devices. FFX is an JRPG, so this is hardly a masterful story when compared to literature and film. And I'm also not going to say the story is perfect because it isn't. But if this is the best you come up with, then there must not be too much wrong with this story.

Also, you don't really have a point with the Chococbo knights nitpick. You're only focusing on a few people who led the charge against Sin.

The laughing scene is such a trite way to try and critisize the story and the only thing particularly wrong with that scene is that the voice actors fail to pull it off convincingly, so it comes across unintentionally funny. I fail to see anything wrong with the concept of the scene tho.GreySeal9

It does seem silly that Tidus doesn't have an adverse reaction to what Rikku did, but he knew her. That's why he let her join the party. Maybe the writers should have had Rikku explain her motivation for doing that on the spot.GreySeal9

But the whole bit about the Al Bhed kidnapping summoners is not a plot hole. They are simply weighing the notion of protecting summoners against the value of defeating Sin. After all, do you not recall that Sin continually comes back. That is one of the reasons that the Al Bhed don't think it's worth sacrificing summoners to defeat Sin.

It's funny that you try to imply that FFX is a childish story, yet you analyze the Al Bhed's actions through a black and white moral lense. You think that there is some kind of plot hole because you don't approve of the moral calculation they've made.GreySeal9

Here's huge plot hole that I failed to address in my first post, the whole concept of death in Spira. It seems to me that once you die, you can't go to the after life unless a summoner or whoever "sends" you. Yet if we look at Seymour, he's been dead for the later half of the game when the party defeats him the first time, yet because Yuna didn't "send" him, so he pops up later like nothing happened and healthy as a horse. So what's the big deal about dying then? Why does anybody care if you "die" if all that happens is that you get to stick around like normal and go about your day as normal. So basically you become immortal if you get killed and no body happens to send you. So why doesn't all of Spira just throw themselves at Sin and just "die" because you know..whatever, nothing happens.

This is such a silly, superficial point.

First of all, Anima/=/Lucifer. Just because his Aeon is evil looking doesn't mean that it is evil. Actually, Anima seems to embody pain more than he embodies evil. After all, do you not realize that Yuna acquires Anima at some point (if the player bothers). Does that make her evil as well? Do you not realize that summoners in Spira seem to share the same aeons? Have you not considered that in Spira, Anima is not seen as "sinister"?

That's not to say Seymour is not evil. At some point he became evil. Nobody is going to deny that. But Anima is a piss poor reason to think that everybody should have thought he was evil, even tho he did get rid of the fiends. :roll: According to you, everybody should think he is evil because you think Anima looks scary. lol.GreySeal9

How do you know nobody questions his actions? It seems to me that everybody is turning a blind eye rather than thinking he's a great guy. Or that they simply blinded by his air of authority and power. Also, though FFX, being a JRPG, makes it pretty clear to player than Seymour is going to be a bad guy (I'm not claiming that the game is super subtle), he doesn't actually initially do anything particularly evil until a bit later. It is not immediately apparent to the characters that the marriage is a sham, even if the game makes it obvious to us, the players.GreySeal9

And if I recall correctly, some people did raise an objection to using machinery to combat Sin.GreySeal9

Funnily enough, you think Tidus is such a dumb airhead, yet he's one of the ones who sees through Seymour.GreySeal9

And I just want to point out that you're bringing up issues that make your "five year olds" comment seem silly. The notion of forbidding machina is a pretty adult concept, don't you think?GreySeal9

Irrelevant. You may not like this character design, but it really has no real impact on his character. I think his character design is fine. His hair is like that because he is part Guado.GreySeal9

Nitpicking.

Yes, his weapon is kind of silly, but does it really matter? No, it really doesn't.GreySeal9

Really now? Even if you hate the story, you should be able to see how good the visuals were at the time.GreySeal9

Your points are too minor and inconsequential to make anybody feel bad for liking it. At best, you've pointed out a few goofy plot devices that don't quite wash, which makes it no different from other JRPGs. The things you've pointed out are so minor that they do not outweigh the story's strong points.

GreySeal9

So. Much. Text.

VIII's story is interesting and has some extremely exiciting moments, but it doesn't explain time compression or Ultimecia's motivation well (I'd argue it doesn't really explain it at all) and the coincidence the game wants you to buy into is just way too hard to swallow (people who have played the game will know what I'm talking about).

I probably enjoyed FFIX's story the most (it was the most fun/humorous while still talking itself seriously), but when I put my literary analysis/critic crap on, FFX comes out on top. The way it dealt with organized religion was beyond anything else the series has done story-wise. And I thought that Tidus' love/hate relationship with his father was incredibly done as well. The motivations, feelings, and psychology behind their relationship was very sophisticated and believable.

I actually find FFX to be the most sophisticated and artistically accomplished game in the series when considering story, visual design, and soundtrack, but I don't think it comes together as well as FFIX as far as actually being a game is concerned, so that's why FFX is my second favorite while FFIX takes the GreySeal9 crown.

GreySeal9

It's like you went into the future, somehow knew I was coming to this thread, and said everything I was going to say.

Well done, pretty much sums up how I feel about the series... actually it's the exact same way. Brofist.

Edit: Except I'm far more harsh on FF8. Screw that game.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

VIII's story is interesting and has some extremely exiciting moments, but it doesn't explain time compression or Ultimecia's motivation well (I'd argue it doesn't really explain it at all) and the coincidence the game wants you to buy into is just way too hard to swallow (people who have played the game will know what I'm talking about).

I probably enjoyed FFIX's story the most (it was the most fun/humorous while still talking itself seriously), but when I put my literary analysis/critic crap on, FFX comes out on top. The way it dealt with organized religion was beyond anything else the series has done story-wise. And I thought that Tidus' love/hate relationship with his father was incredibly done as well. The motivations, feelings, and psychology behind their relationship was very sophisticated and believable.

I actually find FFX to be the most sophisticated and artistically accomplished game in the series when considering story, visual design, and soundtrack, but I don't think it comes together as well as FFIX as far as actually being a game is concerned, so that's why FFX is my second favorite while FFIX takes the GreySeal9 crown.

MLBknights58

It's like you went into the future, somehow knew I was coming to this thread, and said everything I was going to say.

Well done, pretty much sums up how I feel about the series... actually it's the exact same way. Brofist.

Edit: Except I'm far more harsh on FF8. Screw that game.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

VIII's story is interesting and has some extremely exiciting moments, but it doesn't explain time compression or Ultimecia's motivation well (I'd argue it doesn't really explain it at all) and the coincidence the game wants you to buy into is just way too hard to swallow (people who have played the game will know what I'm talking about).

I probably enjoyed FFIX's story the most (it was the most fun/humorous while still talking itself seriously), but when I put my literary analysis/critic crap on, FFX comes out on top. The way it dealt with organized religion was beyond anything else the series has done story-wise. And I thought that Tidus' love/hate relationship with his father was incredibly done as well. The motivations, feelings, and psychology behind their relationship was very sophisticated and believable.

I actually find FFX to be the most sophisticated and artistically accomplished game in the series when considering story, visual design, and soundtrack, but I don't think it comes together as well as FFIX as far as actually being a game is concerned, so that's why FFX is my second favorite while FFIX takes the GreySeal9 crown.

MLBknights58

It's like you went into the future, somehow knew I was coming to this thread, and said everything I was going to say.

Well done, pretty much sums up how I feel about the series... actually it's the exact same way. Brofist.

Edit: Except I'm far more harsh on FF8. Screw that game.

:(

[QUOTE="MLBknights58"]

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

VIII's story is interesting and has some extremely exiciting moments, but it doesn't explain time compression or Ultimecia's motivation well (I'd argue it doesn't really explain it at all) and the coincidence the game wants you to buy into is just way too hard to swallow (people who have played the game will know what I'm talking about).

I probably enjoyed FFIX's story the most (it was the most fun/humorous while still talking itself seriously), but when I put my literary analysis/critic crap on, FFX comes out on top. The way it dealt with organized religion was beyond anything else the series has done story-wise. And I thought that Tidus' love/hate relationship with his father was incredibly done as well. The motivations, feelings, and psychology behind their relationship was very sophisticated and believable.

I actually find FFX to be the most sophisticated and artistically accomplished game in the series when considering story, visual design, and soundtrack, but I don't think it comes together as well as FFIX as far as actually being a game is concerned, so that's why FFX is my second favorite while FFIX takes the GreySeal9 crown.

FreddyJeffery

It's like you went into the future, somehow knew I was coming to this thread, and said everything I was going to say.

Well done, pretty much sums up how I feel about the series... actually it's the exact same way. Brofist.

Edit: Except I'm far more harsh on FF8. Screw that game.

Megaman Zero 4 definitely brings back some of the difficulty that was lacking in previous titles, while taking the combat to the series heights. I admit my memory is foggy as I haven't replayed them recently (working on speed-running Megaman X2 atm) but I'm fairly certain this game has the most options as far as combat is concerned. Level design is also far better than it has been previously, at least IMO. Boss fights are just as tough as ever, made significantly easier once you figure out which elements/weapons work best. The story comes to a climactic finish, with one of the most difficult final encounters I've ever played. These are just some thoughts of the top of my head, as I feel you don't need an in depth review, nor did you ask for one.

I tend to gush, so I'll get down to the point, Megaman Zero 4 is one of the finest action games I've ever played. You should get your hands on it ASAP.

[QUOTE="FreddyJeffery"][QUOTE="MLBknights58"]

It's like you went into the future, somehow knew I was coming to this thread, and said everything I was going to say.

Well done, pretty much sums up how I feel about the series... actually it's the exact same way. Brofist.

Edit: Except I'm far more harsh on FF8. Screw that game.

MLBknights58

Megaman Zero 4 definitely brings back some of the difficulty that was lacking in previous titles, while taking the combat to the series heights. I admit my memory is foggy as I haven't replayed them recently (working on speed-running Megaman X2 atm) but I'm fairly certain this game has the most options as far as combat is concerned. Level design is also far better than it has been previously, at least IMO. Boss fights are just as tough as ever, made significantly easier once you figure out which elements/weapons work best. The story comes to a climactic finish, with one of the most difficult final encounters I've ever played. These are just some thoughts of the top of my head, as I feel you don't need an in depth review, nor did you ask for one.

I tend to gush, so I'll get down to the point, Megaman Zero 4 is one of the finest action games I've ever played. You should get your hands on it ASAP.

It's not that he's a bad character because he's annoying, it's because he's a terribly written character who has next to nothing to do with the main story, and has next to zero character development.

And a main character should be likeable, he should be someone the player can relate to considering you're gonna be in his shoes for the next 60 hours. I don't know about you, but I don't relate to annoying people, I usually want to puch them in the face.AcidSoldner

Well, we will have to agree to disagree on the terribly written bit (if their aim was to make a generally good natured but immature young man, that aim was perfectly well-realized in the form of Tidus), but I see no reason whatsoever why they main character has to be likeable. Honestly, trying hard to make a character likeable usually gets you a generic character that tries to be all things to all people. The character should be who the character is, regardless of outside opinions.

But that's it, that Tidus' only connection to Spira at all, being Jecht's son. He's got some daddy issues with Jecht, nothing compelling that drives the story forward in any meaningful way. Everything else, everything meaningful, is about Yuna.AcidSoldner

But you keep saying "only connection" as if there needs to be some connection other than that. It's a pretty damn big connection. And honestly, Tidus also represents Zanarkand, which is a pretty important part of the story.

And that's very valid criticism towards XII. Vaan has nothing to do with the story, like at all, but at least he doesn't get in the way. Balthier was originally supposed the main character in XII but some survey SE did showed that the Japanese fan base liked androndynous teen character more than an actual man. It's stupid and I hate SE for that. While I haven't read anything coming from the FFX team, I'm assuming something similar happen, in regards to swapping main characters at some point in development, as Tidus is an extremely pointless main character.

And you point on how "this is role-playing game, so the idea of a main character works a little different from a film or novel" would hold more weight if this was a WRPG. But it's not, JRPGs almost always have predifined main characters, so they need to be a little compelling and well written.AcidSoldner

That's a pretty good point, but even in JRPGs, your main character is still more interactive than a film or novel.

And I didn't say that the main characters work differently because I don't think Tidus is compelling or well-written. It's because I understand why the creators wanted a character that is an outsider.

That's not nit picking, that's just plain, bad writing. So some evil giant monster goes about killing innocents on a massive scale and it isn't urgent to want to stop him? Come on bud, again bad writing and bad story telling that in this case seems to be only included as a reason to get the player to play Blitzball. It like the writers couldn't how you could possibly play a recreational sport while being tasking with saving the entire world from destruction and basically just said **** it."AcidSoldner

No, it really isn't bad writing at all.I explained why defeating Sin is not quite as urgent as you're making it out to be. Spira has lived with Sin for many many years. When Sin becomes such a part of life, then the likelihood that people drop everything they are doing to stop him decreases. Even in dark times, people don't stop doing the things they enjoy. And it's not like the party was totally slacking off and not going after Sin. They just made a brief detour. You're making way too big a deal out of it.

Maybe the writers did want a place to insert a Blitzball match, but for the life of me I don't see what's wrong with them taking a bit of time out of their pilgrimage to participate in something that was obviously important to Wakka.

I can handle some silly plot points here and there but the story is absolutely riddled with them that it all just begins to fall apart after the 20th inexplicable reason why someone does something stupid for no reason.AcidSoldner

Well, I can only go off of the ones you list.

She just attempted to murder the entire party in order to get away with Yuna. I don't think anything can really justify that all, much less letting her join the party. Again, bad writing = bad story.AcidSoldner

I agree that this wasn't handled well. Like I said, they should have explained her motives right on the spot. They waited to do this for dramatic effect, but they probably shouldn't have.

The whole point of the quest is that Yuna is willingly going to sacrifice her self for the safety of Spira, in order so save millions of lives. Some badly dressed Tuskan Raiders don't agree with that why? It's never explained in detail as to why they would rather sacrifice an entire civlization to save ONE person, who is sacrificing themselves willingly no less, just because they think it's wrong. Non-explanation = plot hole.AcidSoldner

I don't see how you can say that it's not explained. They are not just saving one person, they are saving several people. There is more than one summoner. And like I said, when Sin is defeated, he is not really defeated, so they don't think the sacrifice is worth it. These are exactly the kind of moral dilmenas that pop up in real life. This is why philosophies like utilitarianism bump heads with other philosophies that put more value on individual lives rather than the best outcome for the most people. To act like this is a plot hole when there are the same kind of debates in philosophy and society doesn't make sense to me.

Do I agree with the Al Bhed? No. But their view is not without any basis.

Here's huge plot hole that I failed to address in my first post, the whole concept of death in Spira. It seems to me that once you die, you can't go to the after life unless a summoner or whoever "sends" you. Yet if we look at Seymour, he's been dead for the later half of the game when the party defeats him the first time, yet because Yuna didn't "send" him, so he pops up later like nothing happened and healthy as a horse. So what's the big deal about dying then? Why does anybody care if you "die" if all that happens is that you get to stick around like normal and go about your day as normal. So basically you become immortal if you get killed and no body happens to send you. So why doesn't all of Spira just throw themselves at Sin and just "die" because you know..whatever, nothing happens.AcidSoldner

I think this is a good point because the Farplane is more consequential to the story's themes and arcs than Blitzball or whatever. This should have been explained better, but I think there is a difference between people like Seymour and the other Maesters in the Church of Yevon and regular people. To borrow Xenosaga 1's translated title, they have the "will to power" so to say. I think this binds them to the world in a way that doesn't happen with the "masses".

But I agree that the Farplane could have been explained a hell of alot better. This is a case of the game not fully developing one of its ideas, so I do think it hurts the story somewhat.

It's not immeadiately apparent to them because they were poorly written characters. Kinda like the stupid teenagers in horror movies who insist on going into dark alley ways and rooms despite fact that logic should dicate that you should walk into a pitch black area with a killer on the loose.AcidSoldner

I still disagree. I don't think there's anything that makes Seymour initially stand out as evil except that he has traits that we, as players, associate with evil, such as his way of talking, his facial expressions, his "aura". But his actions are not initially evil, and even if he was unsettling to the characters, they might have suppressed those feelings because of his position and the respect that his postiion commands. It's not until later that he starts doing evil stuff (or that they find out he has been doing evil stuff) and by then, everybody knows that he is in fact, bad.

That's because the other characters are almost as poorly written.AcidSoldner

I think it has more to with the fact that Tidus has more motivation to see Seymour as a bad guy because he's especially sensitive to what Yuna does regarding marriage. So, I wasn't actually trying to argue that Tidus is a keen judge of character, I was just pointing out the irony of the ditzy guy being the one to see through the bad dude.

Lolwut? It's not a hard concept to grasp. Machines are bad because the authority figure said so. And don't take the 5 year old the so literal. I meant it in the sense that the story is so stupid that only an one who looks at the story from a superficial point of view could actualy enjoy it.AcidSoldner

Well, maybe I did take that a bit too literally, but while it may be a hard concept to grasp, the notion of machinery being immoral is not something that 5 year olds ponder.

But like you said, I probably took that too literally.

Irrelevant indeed. Just wanted to point out some other bad features of the game like the character design. And f*cking lol if you actually think he looks "fine." That's some bad taste right there.AcidSoldner

Taste is subjective. I think he looks fine because he is the member of an exotic race. What do you think he is supposed to look like exactly?

So basically you lowered your standards and excuse the endless amount of plot holes, a sh!t ton of minor ones and a few big ones, simply becasue it's a JRPG? It seems to me that you're looking at the plot from a subjective viewpoint rather than an objective one and in turn ignore that massive flaws within the story and story telling.

AcidSoldner

All critical analysis is subjective.

It's not that I'm outright excusing plot holes. I'm just saying that when I weigh them against the story's strengths, they don't break the story by any means. And like I said, alot of the things you think are plotholes I don't. I think the story has a strong enough foundation that the plot holes don't make it collapse. If a more trite story with weaker themes had these kind of plot holes, they would matter more because there's nothing to compensate.

But maybe the plot holes matter alot more to you, which is fair enough.

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

VIII's story is interesting and has some extremely exiciting moments, but it doesn't explain time compression or Ultimecia's motivation well (I'd argue it doesn't really explain it at all) and the coincidence the game wants you to buy into is just way too hard to swallow (people who have played the game will know what I'm talking about).

I probably enjoyed FFIX's story the most (it was the most fun/humorous while still talking itself seriously), but when I put my literary analysis/critic crap on, FFX comes out on top. The way it dealt with organized religion was beyond anything else the series has done story-wise. And I thought that Tidus' love/hate relationship with his father was incredibly done as well. The motivations, feelings, and psychology behind their relationship was very sophisticated and believable.

I actually find FFX to be the most sophisticated and artistically accomplished game in the series when considering story, visual design, and soundtrack, but I don't think it comes together as well as FFIX as far as actually being a game is concerned, so that's why FFX is my second favorite while FFIX takes the GreySeal9 crown.

MLBknights58

It's like you went into the future, somehow knew I was coming to this thread, and said everything I was going to say.

Well done, pretty much sums up how I feel about the series... actually it's the exact same way. Brofist.

Edit: Except I'm far more harsh on FF8. Screw that game.

*returns the brofist*

So. Much. Text.

Ilovegames1992

Yeah, but I'm personally having fun debating this.

[QUOTE="AcidSoldner"]It's not that he's a bad character because he's annoying, it's because he's a terribly written character who has next to nothing to do with the main story, and has next to zero character development.

And a main character should be likeable, he should be someone the player can relate to considering you're gonna be in his shoes for the next 60 hours. I don't know about you, but I don't relate to annoying people, I usually want to puch them in the face.GreySeal9

Well, we will have to agree to disagree on the terribly written bit (if their aim was to make a generally good natured but immature young man, that aim was perfectly well-realized in the form of Tidus), but I see no reason whatsoever why they main character has to be likeable. Honestly, trying hard to make a character likeable usually gets you a generic character that tries to be all things to all people. The character should be who the character is, regardless of outside opinions.

But that's it, that Tidus' only connection to Spira at all, being Jecht's son. He's got some daddy issues with Jecht, nothing compelling that drives the story forward in any meaningful way. Everything else, everything meaningful, is about Yuna.AcidSoldner

But you keep saying "only connection" as if there needs to be some connection other than that. It's a pretty damn big connection. And honestly, Tidus also represents Zanarkand, which is a pretty important part of the story.

And that's very valid criticism towards XII. Vaan has nothing to do with the story, like at all, but at least he doesn't get in the way. Balthier was originally supposed the main character in XII but some survey SE did showed that the Japanese fan base liked androndynous teen character more than an actual man. It's stupid and I hate SE for that. While I haven't read anything coming from the FFX team, I'm assuming something similar happen, in regards to swapping main characters at some point in development, as Tidus is an extremely pointless main character.

And you point on how "this is role-playing game, so the idea of a main character works a little different from a film or novel" would hold more weight if this was a WRPG. But it's not, JRPGs almost always have predifined main characters, so they need to be a little compelling and well written.AcidSoldner

That's a pretty good point, but even in JRPGs, your main character is still more interactive than a film or novel.

And I didn't say that the main characters work differently because I don't think Tidus is compelling or well-written. It's because I understand why the creators wanted a character that is an outsider.

That's not nit picking, that's just plain, bad writing. So some evil giant monster goes about killing innocents on a massive scale and it isn't urgent to want to stop him? Come on bud, again bad writing and bad story telling that in this case seems to be only included as a reason to get the player to play Blitzball. It like the writers couldn't how you could possibly play a recreational sport while being tasking with saving the entire world from destruction and basically just said **** it."AcidSoldner

No, it really isn't bad writing at all.I explained why defeating Sin is not quite as urgent as you're making it out to be. Spira has lived with Sin for many many years. When Sin becomes such a part of life, then the likelihood that people drop everything they are doing to stop him decreases. Even in dark times, people don't stop doing the things they enjoy. And it's not like the party was totally slacking off and not going after Sin. They just made a brief detour. You're making way too big a deal out of it.

Maybe the writers did want a place to insert a Blitzball match, but for the life of me I don't see what's wrong with them taking a bit of time out of their pilgrimage to participate in something that was obviously important to Wakka.

I can handle some silly plot points here and there but the story is absolutely riddled with them that it all just begins to fall apart after the 20th inexplicable reason why someone does something stupid for no reason.AcidSoldner

Well, I can only go off of the ones you list.

She just attempted to murder the entire party in order to get away with Yuna. I don't think anything can really justify that all, much less letting her join the party. Again, bad writing = bad story.AcidSoldner

I agree that this wasn't handled well. Like I said, they should have explained her motives right on the spot. They waited to do this for dramatic effect, but they probably shouldn't have.

The whole point of the quest is that Yuna is willingly going to sacrifice her self for the safety of Spira, in order so save millions of lives. Some badly dressed Tuskan Raiders don't agree with that why? It's never explained in detail as to why they would rather sacrifice an entire civlization to save ONE person, who is sacrificing themselves willingly no less, just because they think it's wrong. Non-explanation = plot hole.AcidSoldner

I don't see how you can say that it's not explained. They are not just saving one person, they are saving several people. There is more than one summoner. And like I said, when Sin is defeated, he is not really defeated, so they don't think the sacrifice is worth it. These are exactly the kind of moral dilmenas that pop up in real life. This is why philosophies like utilitarianism bump heads with other philosophies that put more value on individual lives rather than the best outcome for the most people. To act like this is a plot hole when there are the same kind of debates in philosophy and society doesn't make sense to me.

Do I agree with the Al Bhed? No. But their view is not without any basis.

Here's huge plot hole that I failed to address in my first post, the whole concept of death in Spira. It seems to me that once you die, you can't go to the after life unless a summoner or whoever "sends" you. Yet if we look at Seymour, he's been dead for the later half of the game when the party defeats him the first time, yet because Yuna didn't "send" him, so he pops up later like nothing happened and healthy as a horse. So what's the big deal about dying then? Why does anybody care if you "die" if all that happens is that you get to stick around like normal and go about your day as normal. So basically you become immortal if you get killed and no body happens to send you. So why doesn't all of Spira just throw themselves at Sin and just "die" because you know..whatever, nothing happens.AcidSoldner

I think this is a good point because the Farplane is more consequential to the story's themes and arcs than Blitzball or whatever. This should have been explained better, but I think there is a difference between people like Seymour and the other Maesters in the Church of Yevon and regular people. To borrow Xenosaga 1's translated title, they have the "will to power" so to say. I think this binds them to the world in a way that doesn't happen with the "masses".

But I agree that the Farplane could have been explained a hell of alot better. This is a case of the game not fully developing one of its ideas, so I do think it hurts the story somewhat.

It's not immeadiately apparent to them because they were poorly written characters. Kinda like the stupid teenagers in horror movies who insist on going into dark alley ways and rooms despite fact that logic should dicate that you should walk into a pitch black area with a killer on the loose.AcidSoldner

I still disagree. I don't think there's anything that makes Seymour initially stand out as evil except that he has traits that we, as players, associate with evil, such as his way of talking, his facial expressions, his "aura". But his actions are not initially evil, and even if he was unsettling to the characters, they might have suppressed those feelings because of his position and the respect that his postiion commands. It's not until later that he starts doing evil stuff (or that they find out he has been doing evil stuff) and by then, everybody knows that he is in fact, bad.

That's because the other characters are almost as poorly written.AcidSoldner

I think it has more to with the fact that Tidus has more motivation to see Seymour as a bad guy because he's especially sensitive to what Yuna does regarding marriage. So, I wasn't actually trying to argue that Tidus is a keen judge of character, I was just pointing out the irony of the ditzy guy being the one to see through the bad dude.

Lolwut? It's not a hard concept to grasp. Machines are bad because the authority figure said so. And don't take the 5 year old the so literal. I meant it in the sense that the story is so stupid that only an one who looks at the story from a superficial point of view could actualy enjoy it.AcidSoldner

Well, maybe I did take that a bit too literally, but while it may be a hard concept to grasp, the notion of machinery being immoral is not something that 5 year olds ponder.

But like you said, I probably took that too literally.

Irrelevant indeed. Just wanted to point out some other bad features of the game like the character design. And f*cking lol if you actually think he looks "fine." That's some bad taste right there.AcidSoldner

Taste is subjective. I think he looks fine because he is the member of an exotic race. What do you think he is supposed to look like exactly?

So basically you lowered your standards and excuse the endless amount of plot holes, a sh!t ton of minor ones and a few big ones, simply becasue it's a JRPG? It seems to me that you're looking at the plot from a subjective viewpoint rather than an objective one and in turn ignore that massive flaws within the story and story telling.

AcidSoldner

All critical analysis is subjective.

It's not that I'm outright excusing plot holes. I'm just saying that when I weigh them against the story's strengths, they don't break the story by any means. And like I said, alot of the things you think are plotholes I don't. I think the story has a strong enough foundation that the plot holes don't make it collapse. If a more trite story with weaker themes had these kind of plot holes, they would matter more because there's nothing to compensate.

But maybe the plot holes matter alot more to you, which is fair enough.

[QUOTE="Ilovegames1992"]

So. Much. Text.

GreySeal9

Yeah, but I'm personally having fun debating this.

I think at this point I'll just agree to disagree. I don't think we can really hammer in anything else that we haven't already both stated. Plus I don't feel like taking another half our for just one post. Not to mention I haven't played FFX in years and it took some effort to remember all of that.

Perhaps we should do FFXII next :twisted:

Can we all just agree FF VIII is pretty good and lay down our arms?

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="Ilovegames1992"]

So. Much. Text.

AcidSoldner

Yeah, but I'm personally having fun debating this.

I think at this point I'll just agree to disagree. I don't think we can really hammer in anything else that we haven't already both stated. Plus I don't feel like taking another half our for just one post. Not to mention I haven't played FFX in years and it took some effort to remember all of that.

Perhaps we should do FFXII next :twisted:

Yeah, I'm cool with agreeing to disagree. The walls of text are getting out of hand.

I'd like to debate FFXII as well, but TBH, my memory is so fuzzy on that game. I plan to replay it pretty soon tho.

[QUOTE="AcidSoldner"]

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

Yeah, but I'm personally having fun debating this.

GreySeal9

I think at this point I'll just agree to disagree. I don't think we can really hammer in anything else that we haven't already both stated. Plus I don't feel like taking another half our for just one post. Not to mention I haven't played FFX in years and it took some effort to remember all of that.

Perhaps we should do FFXII next :twisted:

Yeah, I'm cool with agreeing to disagree. The walls of text are getting out of hand.

I'd like to debate FFXII as well, but TBH, my memory is so fuzzy on that game. I plan to replay it pretty soon tho.

Can we all just agree FF VIII is pretty good and lay down our arms?

Ilovegames1992

Can we all just agree FF VIII is pretty good and lay down our arms?

Ilovegames1992

Nah that game was garbage.