Microsoft: ''Xbox One will never be sold without Kinect''

[QUOTE="Areez"]So Rare showed in game footage that shows how responsive the device is, and its still tbe same crap? IGN demoed the device at Gamescom and its the same crap? I mean unless you are blind, you can blatantly see how more responsive tbe device is compared to its predecessor. And I m not downsizing anything.  I was simply highlighting the fact that your opinion is just that, an opinion. Which you are trying to push as fact. :|Black_Knight_00

:|

[QUOTE="Areez"]

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"] They showed more or less the same crap 4 years ago and the games didn't turn out half as responsive as they claimed. Where were you? Don't buy corporate PR.

And you've already downsized your kinect approval rates I see: first you said "25 million kinect owners disagree with you" and now we're at "there are some who like the device"

dvader654

So Rare showed in game footage that shows how responsive the device is, and its still tbe same crap? IGN demoed the device at Gamescom and its the same crap? I mean unless you are blind, you can blatantly see how more responsive tbe device is compared to its predecessor. And I m not downsizing anything.  I was simply highlighting the fact that your opinion is just that, an opinion. Which you are trying to push as fact. :|

And here in lies the problem.  Some core gamers believe that because we have not seen a kinect only game, that appeals to us, than the kinect is crap. Its one thing to say hey, the kinect does not offer me the kind of games I want, so therefore it not a device for me. Than say hey, the system has no games I like,  so its crap and will always be crap. And its clear based on previous sells, that their does seem to be a demand for the device, right or wrong.

Big picture, the device was created to add additional features to the Xbox game console, and is aimed at attracting the casual gamer. A segment of the population console makers to need to attract, do in part to the threat of mobile devices. 

[QUOTE="Areez"]

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"] They showed more or less the same crap 4 years ago and the games didn't turn out half as responsive as they claimed. Where were you? Don't buy corporate PR.

And you've already downsized your kinect approval rates I see: first you said "25 million kinect owners disagree with you" and now we're at "there are some who like the device"

dvader654

So Rare showed in game footage that shows how responsive the device is, and its still tbe same crap? IGN demoed the device at Gamescom and its the same crap? I mean unless you are blind, you can blatantly see how more responsive tbe device is compared to its predecessor. And I m not downsizing anything.  I was simply highlighting the fact that your opinion is just that, an opinion. Which you are trying to push as fact. :|

The UI, and enhancements to recognition,  add addtional options and features to how we interact with the console. The inclusion of the Kinect, also allows me to control and access all my devices and home theater system. It saves me a couple 100 on a logitech Home theater universal remote.  I am confused as to why options are a bad thing for consoles. We see features and options on other devices today. It seems as if addtional options are deemed bad here.

If the PS4 ends up outselling the XBONE by a significant margin, MS will be forced to do something, be it eat that extra hundred and sell the system for a comparable price or remove a peripheral feature many of us simply don't want.

I honestly think the XBONE is going to have a slow start at retail and I think the price is going to be a significant reason for that lag.

Grammaton-Cleric

Agreed. Once Sony has a substantial lead over Microsoft and gains back some market share we'll see another 180 in this regards. Either they'll drop the price outright, or have a SKU w/o Kinect. I imagine they'd prefer not to drop the price. This could happen by Holiday 2014. Eitehr case, we need them to remain competitive so Sony doesn't get too comfortable.

Read posts more carefullyBlack_Knight_00

No, I read it and understood that you are making baseless and blatantly incorrect claims about the Kinect 2. You need to learn the difference between speculation and facts. :)

Here's IGN's footage of Kinect Sports Rivals. Doesn't look much beyond the old KS games but as I've noted before, I don't think minigame fans care much about precision.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/08/20/kinect-sports-rivals-proves-kinect-20-actually-works

For my money the best use of the Kinect I've seen is the mo-cap in Project Spark (check the 7 and a half minute mark of the video below).

Here's IGN's footage of Kinect Sports Rivals. Doesn't look much beyond the old KS games but as I've noted before, I don't think minigame fans care much about precision.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/08/20/kinect-sports-rivals-proves-kinect-20-actually-works

For my money the best use of the Kinect I've seen is the mo-cap in Project Spark (check the 7 and a half minute mark of the video below).

CarnageHeart

Um where is Kinect Rivals demo? This is an example of Project Spark. Which is another demo that clearly contrasts what thew device can do. Casual gamers may not be screaming,  "hey, we want more precision". However,  because of increased precision,  Rare for example, has been able to incoporate the ability to add top spin to a tennis ball. And spin on a bowling ball that imitates real life movement of a ball heading toward bowling pins. These are some of the precision improvements to Kinect Rivals. These could potentially add to a more realistic user experience.

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"]Read posts more carefullyPedro

No, I read it and understood that you are making baseless and blatantly incorrect claims about the Kinect 2. You need to learn the difference between speculation and facts. :)

Nothing new here. He always makes baseless and blatantly incorrect claims. :D

[QUOTE="CarnageHeart"]

Here's IGN's footage of Kinect Sports Rivals. Doesn't look much beyond the old KS games but as I've noted before, I don't think minigame fans care much about precision.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/08/20/kinect-sports-rivals-proves-kinect-20-actually-works

For my money the best use of the Kinect I've seen is the mo-cap in Project Spark (check the 7 and a half minute mark of the video below).

Areez

Um where is Kinect Rivals demo? This is an example of Project Spark. Which is another demo that clearly contrasts what thew device can do. Casual gamers may not be screaming,  "hey, we want more precision". However,  because of increased precision,  Rare for example, has been able to incoporate the ability to add top spin to a tennis ball. And spin on a bowling ball that imitates real life movement of a ball heading toward bowling pins. These are some of the precision improvements to Kinect Rivals. These could potentially add to a more realistic user experience.

[QUOTE="dvader654"][QUOTE="Areez"]

So Rare showed in game footage that shows how responsive the device is, and its still tbe same crap? IGN demoed the device at Gamescom and its the same crap? I mean unless you are blind, you can blatantly see how more responsive tbe device is compared to its predecessor. And I m not downsizing anything.  I was simply highlighting the fact that your opinion is just that, an opinion. Which you are trying to push as fact. :|

Areez

The UI, and enhancements to recognition,  add addtional options and features to how we interact with the console. The inclusion of the Kinect, also allows me to control and access all my devices and home theater system. It saves me a couple 100 on a logitech Home theater universal remote.  I am confused as to why options are a bad thing for consoles. We see features and options on other devices today. It seems as if addtional options are deemed bad here.

I think that it is good that many gamers want something to prove itself before they accept it. The kinect have not proven that it can make many games better.

Firstly, the notion that this matter is merely about the hundred dollar differential is erroneous, at least for me. I can afford to buy any and all systems that I want but I don't really feel comfortable shelling out MORE cash for WEAKER hardware that is tethered to what should be an optional peripheral that I personally do not want.

My current rationale for shunning the XBONE is similar to why I outright refuse to support Nintendo and the Wii U; the entry price is simply not justified by the hardware and tech being offered. Just as I will not pay for an expensive tablet controller that offers a functionality I am not interested in, I will not purchase a system with an added cost foisted onto the package due to the inclusion of a motion control device that I am indifferent to.

And I would also be remiss not to mention the fact that I and many others really dont care if Kinnect 2.0 is a better device than its predecessor because some of us quite simply do not like motion control, either as a primary or ancillary input methodology.

And again, I have been a vocal proponent of MS's efforts for the last two generational offerings but for me, the logic is clear: The Kinnect is motion control; motion control is geared towards the casual crowd; I am not a casual gamer thus I am not currently interested in a system heavily predicated on motion control.

At this moment, MS isn't targeting me as a consumer. If that changes, they'll get my money, as they have so often in the past.

[QUOTE="Pedro"]

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"]Read posts more carefullyAreez

No, I read it and understood that you are making baseless and blatantly incorrect claims about the Kinect 2. You need to learn the difference between speculation and facts. :)

Nothing new here. He always makes baseless and blatantly incorrect claims. :D

Actually, I know him to be a pretty level-headed person who generally only argues topics that he is informed about.

I can't speak to this particular issue but overall he is a smart and well-respected regular on these forums.

[QUOTE="Areez"]

[QUOTE="Pedro"]

No, I read it and understood that you are making baseless and blatantly incorrect claims about the Kinect 2. You need to learn the difference between speculation and facts. :)

Grammaton-Cleric

Nothing new here. He always makes baseless and blatantly incorrect claims. :D

Actually, I know him to be a pretty level-headed person who generally only argues topics that he is informed about.

I can't speak to this particular issue but overall he is a smart and well-respected regular on these forums.

Roses are red

Mirrors reflect

X1 sucks

and so does Kinect

@Pedro, had you interpreted my post correctly you'd see the lies comment was referred to the 2009-2010 period. Was kinect 2 being talked about in that period? No. Glad we cleared that up. Black_Knight_00

Thats strange. Could you clarify this statement then 

People who believed their shameless lies in 2009-2010 ("wave any drawing in front of kinect and Milo will recognize what it is and talk about it!!") and bough a kinect will buy their lies this year too. That's what they're hoping for.Black_Knight_00

Again what lies are you refering to? You are clearly stating that their are Kinect 2 lies that "suckers" who fell for the 2009-2010 lies would also fall for the lies this year. So I really want to know what are these lies you are refering to. Unless when you mean this year you meant 2009-2010 but that wouldn't make much sense now would it. :| Or were you refering to lies that are not Kinect 2 related however, the rest of your post do not indicate anything of a such. Do you mind clarifying?

I m not sure if selling 24 million of an add on, constitutes using the word "minority". Especially when the console user base is roughly 76 million.

Is this a risk? Sure it is. Personally, I like the gutsy approach as MS is attempting to add some variety, outside of console gaming as we know it. Sort of reminds me when they first unveiled Xbox Live. Actually, some the backlash here is very similar to the backlash against Xbox Live 11 years ago.

Areez

Well, I am certain; that is precisely what minority means.

Using those numbers you provided, only about 31% of those who owned an XB360 bothered to purchase a Kinnect.

So technically, they are appealing to the minority of their previously established user base.

And I have no literal idea of what you are alluding to regarding the backlash you claim occurred when MS first unveiled XBL, outside of people not liking the pay wall. XBL was merely an extrapolation of what PC gaming had already been doing for years; even the Dreamcast enjoyed online functionality.

Again what lies are you refering to? You are clearly stating that their are Kinect 2 lies that "suckers" who fell for the 2009-2010 lies would also fall for the lies this year. So I really want to know what are these lies you are refering to. Unless when you mean this year you meant 2009-2010 but that wouldn't make much sense now would it. Or were you refering to lies that are not Kinect 2 related however, the rest of your post do not indicate anything of a such. Do you mind clarifying?Pedro

 

And I have no literal idea of what you are alluding to regarding the backlash you claim occurred when MS first unveiled XBL, outside of people not liking the pay wall. XBL was merely an extrapolation of what PC gaming had already been doing for years; even the Dreamcast enjoyed online functionality.

Grammaton-Cleric

Revisionist history.

Apparently everyone hated the idea of XBL back in 2002 even though Socom on PS2's pathetic online infrasturcture was one of the most popular game of its time. XBL was a huge deal back when it launched. heavily marketed as Xbox's killer feature.

Apparently Microsoft did not make any false promises when they had Molyneux and Milo faking a demo lying to everyone. Apparently the Kinect was never downgraded after the initial reveal. Apparently we are all Sony fanboys who always hated Kinect from Day 1. I love how Areez claims to know everything about us when there are hundreds of posts of dvader and myself arguing with Skylock over how the Kinect MS showed was the future of video games. We gave it a chance. But the Kinect MS showed wasnt the Kienct we ended up getting. And it certianly did not work with core games like that Star Wars and Steel Battalion games.

It's disturbing to see people defending the forced inclusion of Kinect in Xbox One. Even at the cost of an extra $100.

It is NOT even a required controller like the WiiMote and the Wii U Tablet. It's main funciton in core video games is to yell out commands which hysterically enough is something you can do with the bundled headset. Same with all the TV and OS commands. Why do i need a $150 Kinect camera to tell the Xbox 'Play TV'? I would love an explanation on this because it seems a pretty useless feature to me.

The fact of the matter is that this f*cking thing has been included to attract the casuals again. They have shown nothing that enhances the gameplay in core games like Witcher, Ryse, CoD, Battlefield or AC. So why am I being forced to pay an extra $100 for a console that isnt even as powerful as the console that sells for $100 less?

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"]Some people seem to forget that we are less than 3 months from launch. Launch titles have gone gold or are about to go gold... and what have we seen concerning kinect? The same kind of CG demo reels they showed us in 2009 and that were lies then and thus mean nothing now. Games have gone gold and if they wanted to turn the tide of the public's opinion on kinect, all they had to do was show gameplay of this amazing 1:1 motion controls which track everyithing from your nuts to your blood pressure. Have they done that? No, because it most likely does not do any of that. People who believed their shameless lies in 2009-2010 ("wave any drawing in front of kinect and Milo will recognize what it is and talk about it!!") and bough a kinect will buy their lies this year too. That's what they're hoping for.Areez

Wow...Did you actually do any fact checking before posting this? Did you even follow all of the news from Gamescom? Or was it only Sony that you were following?

Have you seen the Rare documentary on the development of Kinect Rivals for Xbox One? Where they show Rare devs actually using the device? And where the devs explain some of the technological features of the device? Have you read the demo presented to Gizmodo? Have you seen the online video of IGN playing Kinect Rivals at Gamescom? Have you read the development stroy from Majesco on the accuracy of the Kinect 2?

Do you really understand that the device, is an extension and meant to compliment the controller? Do you know that the device is also intended to broaden the appeal of the Xbox brand to the casual gamer? That the device also adds addtional features that compliment your TV by essentially turning your current HDTV into a smart TV? Providing you the type of features you find on a high end TV.

And what are these lies? Apparently 25 million consumers out of a 76 million installed user base disagree with you. 

Have we seen a game that tracks your heart beat or as you eloquently put it, track your nuts? No. I supposed that you will not be convinced of the Kinect, until the device can actually track your nuts. :|

I'm sorry, but I have to ask: why the hell are we taking documentaries by the developers as some sort of fact?

"Have you seen the Rare documentary on the development of Kinect Rivals for Xbox One?", yeah, and so what? Let's not believe everything we hear, k? The original applications shown off for Kinect are a far cry from what the device is actually capable of. Milo, anyone? Remember when that was a thing? This is like saying Duke Nukem Forever is a good game because Randy Pitchford said it was going to be awesome prior to release. 

Don't get me wrong, I hope that the Kinect 2.0 comes out and ends up being an amazing piece of hardware that offers something to those interested. However, I personally have no interest regardless of how it functions and the hype around it is miniscule anyway. If Kinect 2.0 is truly amazing and worth our time I'd imagine more developers would be interested in using the tech, as opposed to hearing the same sad shit from developers that we've heard ever since the first Kinect was released.

It's disturbing to see people defending the forced inclusion of Kinect in Xbox One. Even at the cost of an extra $100.

It is NOT even a required controller like the WiiMote and the Wii U Tablet. It's main funciton in core video games is to yell out commands which hysterically enough is something you can do with the bundled headset. Same with all the TV and OS commands. Why do i need a $150 Kinect camera to tell the Xbox 'Play TV'? I would love an explanation on this because it seems a pretty useless feature to me.

The fact of the matter is that this f*cking thing has been included to attract the casuals again. They have shown nothing that enhances the gameplay in core games like Witcher, Ryse, CoD, Battlefield or AC. So why am I being forced to pay an extra $100 for a console that isnt even as powerful as the console that sells for $100 less?

S0lidSnake

You are not being forced since the option NOT to buy is and forever would be on the table. I don't know why people stating your claim act as if this is something you are genuinely being forced to do. Don't like it, don't buy. Simple solution.

I have never claimed certainty of the fact they are lying now. I do claim they did lie in 2009-2010, that much is for anyone to see. There is no way to tell whether the claims they are making today are "lies part deux" or solid features yet. I'd say the chance is 50/50, since they lied 4 years ago saying pretty much the same things. When a company lies to their public and the lie pays off it's likely they will play that card again, especially when a certain niche of gaming presuppositionalists exists, which insists in denying the company's past misdeeds against all evidence.Black_Knight_00

The thing is that you were claiming that they are lying now. That was the core of my inquiry about your claim. Its clear that you are assuming because they lied before they are somehow automatically lying now. Such assertion is pretty weak without any real facts to back it up. Being cautious is very understandable but the cry of foul before being able to verify seems overly dramatic. Sony blatantly lied about the PS3 capabilities and I am weary about their claims this time around but there is no need for me to go verbally ballistic as if I was abused by Sony.

All of these companies are trying to make money. When we try to create this illusion of one caring more than the other it just seems absurd. These companies only "care" when their profit margin is on the line, whether it be Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo. 

If you don't like what MS is offering simply don't buy it. I don't like what Nintendo has offered for the past decade so I don't buy their systems. 

I'm sorry, but I have to ask: why the hell are we taking documentaries by the developers as some sort of fact?

"Have you seen the Rare documentary on the development of Kinect Rivals for Xbox One?", yeah, and so what? Let's not believe everything we hear, k? The original applications shown off for Kinect are a far cry from what the device is actually capable of. Milo, anyone? Remember when that was a thing? This is like saying Duke Nukem Forever is a good game because Randy Pitchford said it was going to be awesome prior to release. 

Don't get me wrong, I hope that the Kinect 2.0 comes out and ends up being an amazing piece of hardware that offers something to those interested. However, I personally have no interest regardless of how it functions and the hype around it is miniscule anyway. If Kinect 2.0 is truly amazing and worth our time I'd imagine more developers would be interested in using the tech, as opposed to hearing the same sad shit from developers that we've heard ever since the first Kinect was released.

IndianaPwns39

I see people frequently refering to Milo demo. Are we forgetting who was the master mind behind it? When was the last time Peter Molyneaux make a game that meets his claims? My experience is NEVER. I have played all of his modern games and NONE of them reaches the lavish claims that he so frequently touts prior to release. NO ONE should be surprised when the final product is far from the promised product. I don't even know why the gaming population or media listens to him. 

[QUOTE="S0lidSnake"]

It's disturbing to see people defending the forced inclusion of Kinect in Xbox One. Even at the cost of an extra $100.

It is NOT even a required controller like the WiiMote and the Wii U Tablet. It's main funciton in core video games is to yell out commands which hysterically enough is something you can do with the bundled headset. Same with all the TV and OS commands. Why do i need a $150 Kinect camera to tell the Xbox 'Play TV'? I would love an explanation on this because it seems a pretty useless feature to me.

The fact of the matter is that this f*cking thing has been included to attract the casuals again. They have shown nothing that enhances the gameplay in core games like Witcher, Ryse, CoD, Battlefield or AC. So why am I being forced to pay an extra $100 for a console that isnt even as powerful as the console that sells for $100 less?

Pedro

You are not being forced since the option NOT to buy is and forever would be on the table. I don't know why people stating your claim act as if this is something you are genuinely being forced to do. Don't like it, don't buy. Simple solution.

yes i am if i want to play xbox exclusives.

S0lidSnake

Then bloody hell wait for the price to drop. Its not like the games are going anywhere. And lets be a tad real for a split second, you would be gaming on both your PC and PS4 anyway, so exercise some patience and wait it out. The price would be lower, the exlcusives would be cheaper. In addition to that what games are you even interested in that would be available at launch?

[QUOTE="IndianaPwns39"]

I'm sorry, but I have to ask: why the hell are we taking documentaries by the developers as some sort of fact?

"Have you seen the Rare documentary on the development of Kinect Rivals for Xbox One?", yeah, and so what? Let's not believe everything we hear, k? The original applications shown off for Kinect are a far cry from what the device is actually capable of. Milo, anyone? Remember when that was a thing? This is like saying Duke Nukem Forever is a good game because Randy Pitchford said it was going to be awesome prior to release. 

Don't get me wrong, I hope that the Kinect 2.0 comes out and ends up being an amazing piece of hardware that offers something to those interested. However, I personally have no interest regardless of how it functions and the hype around it is miniscule anyway. If Kinect 2.0 is truly amazing and worth our time I'd imagine more developers would be interested in using the tech, as opposed to hearing the same sad shit from developers that we've heard ever since the first Kinect was released.

Pedro

I see people frequently refering to Milo demo. Are we forgetting who was the master mind behind it? When was the last time Peter Molyneaux make a game that meets his claims? My experience is NEVER. I have played all of his modern games and NONE of them reaches the lavish claims that he so frequently touts prior to release. NO ONE should be surprised when the final product is far from the promised product. I don't even know why the gaming population or media listens to him. 

Milo is just one example, there are plenty Molyneux-less Kinect games that were promised to be revolutionary but they failed to meet the hype.

The fact of the matter is that I'm not going to listen to a developer that's being forced to use Kinect and owned by Microsoft when they say how excellent their product is. EA, Ubisoft, and Activision are all but ignoring the thing so I'm more inclined to believe it's going to be an uninteresting crap shoot like the first one.

Milo is just one example, there are plenty Molyneux-less Kinect games that were promised to be revolutionary but they failed to meet the hype.

The fact of the matter is that I'm not going to listen to a developer that's being forced to use Kinect and owned by Microsoft when they say how excellent their product is. EA, Ubisoft, and Activision are all but ignoring the thing so I'm more inclined to believe it's going to be an uninteresting crap shoot like the first one.

IndianaPwns39

Fair enough.

[QUOTE="S0lidSnake"]yes i am if i want to play xbox exclusives.

Pedro

Then bloody hell wait for the price to drop. Its not like the games are going anywhere. And lets be a tad real for a split second, you would be gaming on both your PC and PS4 anyway, so exercise some patience and wait it out. The price would be lower, the exlcusives would be cheaper. In addition to that what games are you even interested in that would be available at launch?

lol What the hell. Of course I am going to wait for the price drop. Of course the games will still be there. We are talking about RIGHT NOW. I thought that much was obvious.

I am an early adapter gamer. I want to purchase these things day 1. I am interested in Ryse and Forza and would've rented Dead Rising down the line as wel because that looks kinda awesome. Quantum Break and Project Spark are looking like Spring release and I doubt we are going to see a price drop that soon.

lol What the hell. Of course I am going to wait for the price drop. Of course the games will still be there. We are talking about RIGHT NOW. I thought that much was obvious.

I am an early adapter gamer. I want to purchase these things day 1. I am interested in Ryse and Forza and would've rented Dead Rising down the line as wel because that looks kinda awesome. Quantum Break and Project Spark are looking like Spring release and I doubt we are going to see a price drop that soon.

S0lidSnake

Then embrace your PC/PS4 gaming with big wide open arms. :)

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]

 

And I have no literal idea of what you are alluding to regarding the backlash you claim occurred when MS first unveiled XBL, outside of people not liking the pay wall. XBL was merely an extrapolation of what PC gaming had already been doing for years; even the Dreamcast enjoyed online functionality.

S0lidSnake

Revisionist history.

Apparently everyone hated the idea of XBL back in 2002 even though Socom on PS2's pathetic online infrasturcture was one of the most popular game of its time. XBL was a huge deal back when it launched. heavily marketed as Xbox's killer feature.

Apparently Microsoft did not make any false promises when they had Molyneux and Milo faking a demo lying to everyone. Apparently the Kinect was never downgraded after the initial reveal. Apparently we are all Sony fanboys who always hated Kinect from Day 1. I love how Areez claims to know everything about us when there are hundreds of posts of dvader and myself arguing with Skylock over how the Kinect MS showed was the future of video games. We gave it a chance. But the Kinect MS showed wasnt the Kienct we ended up getting. And it certianly did not work with core games like that Star Wars and Steel Battalion games.

If you are going to drag my name into a thread topic, you should get your facts straight. First I do not claim to know everything about your arguments with Skylock over the orginal Kinect. Nor do I care whether or not you intially supported the Kinect. 

What I do know, is that neither you nor Dark actually know what happened internally regarding Project Milo. While Milo was intially to be a game for the Kinect, it was eventually canned internally by the folks at MS. Microsoft did not believe that the game would appeal to casual gamers, nor did they believe it would sell well as a stand alone game. Peter Molyneaux publically stated that the biggest challenge with Milo, was convincing the people at MS, that what they were developing with Milo would appeal to a larger audience. 

So what happened with some of the features of Project Milo? Well, a number of Kinect features from Milo were implemented in Fable: The Journey. A fact confirmed by Lionhead creative director Gary Carr. And a convienent fact that seems to be ignored here. So the "false promises" you and DK keep regurgitating,  is not entirley accurate. The Kinect was never really intended to appeal to core gamers. It was intended to acttract the casual gamer, to grow the user base. To allow the Xbox to be a device that would also appeal to the general household. 

Solid you were not here 11 years ago. When MS introduced Xbox Live in 2001, it was the same type of backlash, based on opinions, mis-information, and fanboyism. The backlash for Xbox Live was very similar to some of the stuff I read here about the new Kinect. People dismissed Xbox Live as a gimmick, they said it would fail because online gaming didnt work on the Dreamcast. They said XBL would fail because not everyone had access to a high speed internet connection. They said it would fail because we could game for free on our PC's. Sony even downplayed online gaming and look how they have done a 180 with online gaming. Hect, a lot of guys in the forums, Sony fans, bashed the Xbox for having an internal hardrive!! LOL!! So those same people probably praise the idea now on the Playstation. 

And if you dont like the idea of paywall...be consistent in your stance against paywalls....Cancell your cable subscription as TV is still free today. But I am also a big believer of you get what you pay for regarding serives. Personally I could give a rats arse  if I have to pay to use certain apps, such as youtube on Live. Why? Because I use Live to primarily game and purchase digital content. And because I take comfort in the fact that Live provides me with a stable, consistent and safe platform to game online on. PSN hacked anyone? Its awesome to see Sony finally taking the steps necessary to build a robust and consistant online infrastructure through PSN +.  I'll suscribing to PSN + just as soon as I pick up my PS4 in November. :D

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]

[QUOTE="Areez"]

Nothing new here. He always makes baseless and blatantly incorrect claims. :D

Black_Knight_00

Actually, I know him to be a pretty level-headed person who generally only argues topics that he is informed about.

I can't speak to this particular issue but overall he is a smart and well-respected regular on these forums.

BK...Do you have an idea what actually happened with Project Milo? Milo was essentially canned by MS. MS did not believe that Milo would appeal to a larger audience, the casual gamer. Peter Molyneux even stated that the hardest thing with Milo was convincing the folks at MS, that what he was proposing would work and appeal to a large audience. Milo was canned, but not all of its Kinect features were. Elements of Milo were implemented into Fable: The Journey. A fact confirmed by Lionhead creative director Gary Carr.

[QUOTE="S0lidSnake"]

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]

 

And I have no literal idea of what you are alluding to regarding the backlash you claim occurred when MS first unveiled XBL, outside of people not liking the pay wall. XBL was merely an extrapolation of what PC gaming had already been doing for years; even the Dreamcast enjoyed online functionality.

Areez

Revisionist history.

Apparently everyone hated the idea of XBL back in 2002 even though Socom on PS2's pathetic online infrasturcture was one of the most popular game of its time. XBL was a huge deal back when it launched. heavily marketed as Xbox's killer feature.

Apparently Microsoft did not make any false promises when they had Molyneux and Milo faking a demo lying to everyone. Apparently the Kinect was never downgraded after the initial reveal. Apparently we are all Sony fanboys who always hated Kinect from Day 1. I love how Areez claims to know everything about us when there are hundreds of posts of dvader and myself arguing with Skylock over how the Kinect MS showed was the future of video games. We gave it a chance. But the Kinect MS showed wasnt the Kienct we ended up getting. And it certianly did not work with core games like that Star Wars and Steel Battalion games.

If you are going to drag my name into a thread topic, you should get your facts straight. First I do not claim to know everything about your arguments with Skylock over the orginal Kinect. Nor do I care whether or not you intially supported the Kinect. 

What I do know, is that neither you nor Dark actually know what happened internally regarding Project Milo. While Milo was intially to be a game for the Kinect, it was eventually canned internally by the folks at MS. Microsoft did not believe that the game would appeal to casual gamers, nor did they believe it would sell well as a stand alone game. Peter Molyneaux publically stated that the biggest challenge with Milo, was convincing the people at MS, that what they were developing with Milo would appeal to a larger audience. 

So what happened with some of the features of Project Milo? Well, a number of Kinect features from Milo were implemented in Fable: The Journey. A fact confirmed by Lionhead creative director Gary Carr. And a convienent fact that seems to be ignored here. So the "false promises" you and DK keep regurgitating,  is not entirley accurate. The Kinect was never really intended to appeal to core gamers. It was intended to acttract the casual gamer, to grow the user base. To allow the Xbox to be a device that would also appeal to the general household. 

Solid you were not here 11 years ago. When MS introduced Xbox Live in 2001, it was the same type of backlash, based on opinions, mis-information, and fanboyism. The backlash for Xbox Live was very similar to some of the stuff I read here about the new Kinect. People dismissed Xbox Live as a gimmick, they said it would fail because online gaming didnt work on the Dreamcast. They said XBL would fail because not everyone had access to a high speed internet connection. They said it would fail because we could game for free on our PC's. Sony even downplayed online gaming and look how they have done a 180 with online gaming. Hect, a lot of guys in the forums, Sony fans, bashed the Xbox for having an internal hardrive!! LOL!! So those same people probably praise the idea now on the Playstation. 

And if you dont like the idea of paywall...be consistent in your stance against paywalls....Cancell your cable subscription as TV is still free today. But I am also a big believer of you get what you pay for regarding serives. Personally I could give a rats arse  if I have to pay to use certain apps, such as youtube on Live. Why? Because I use Live to primarily game and purchase digital content. And because I take comfort in the fact that Live provides me with a stable, consistent and safe platform to game online on. PSN hacked anyone? Its awesome to see Sony finally taking the steps necessary to build a robust and consistant online infrastructure through PSN +.  I'll suscribing to PSN + just as soon as I pick up my PS4 in November. :D

I've been here since before the Lithium days. Maybe System Wars trash were bashing XBL online play, but I saw no such thing in my GGD during my lurking days. Grammaton, Shameus, dvader and Carnage were regulars and they dont seem to recall a backlash on XBL.

You on the other hand have been MIA for the last decade or so. The very people you are accusing of bias have been huge proponents of the Xbox since the OG Xbox. Same guys bought or replaced 3-5 Xbox 360s and still loved the machine because of what it represented. Professor Grammaton and I had a huge fight sometime last year over mendatory XBL fees. The guy has supported the Xbox for as long as I can remember so when he says forcing Kinect upon us is a mistake, you know he isn't doing it because he's not a fan or is misguided. The guy knows his shit.

I haven't played Fable Journey, but are you telling me that it lets you fully interact and develop a relationship with a character in the game? Are you able to have a covnersation with someone in fable Journey? Are you telling me that these Star Wars and Forza Kinect demos at the conference weren't faked?

I am flying right now and the stupid plane wifi wont let me view gifs so I am not sure if they are the ones I was looking for, but these demos are proof that MS faked it all. Who gives a shit if they marketed it to casuals or not? Hell, that makes it even worse and proves our point that with Xbox One they are forcing core gamers to buy a peripheral that was marketed and created just for casuals.

So what about the dismal failure of this Kinect makes them think the new one will fair any better? Also, being forced to have a kinnect is one of the major reasnos I am not buying an X1.

[QUOTE="Areez"]

[QUOTE="S0lidSnake"]

Revisionist history.

Apparently everyone hated the idea of XBL back in 2002 even though Socom on PS2's pathetic online infrasturcture was one of the most popular game of its time. XBL was a huge deal back when it launched. heavily marketed as Xbox's killer feature.

Apparently Microsoft did not make any false promises when they had Molyneux and Milo faking a demo lying to everyone. Apparently the Kinect was never downgraded after the initial reveal. Apparently we are all Sony fanboys who always hated Kinect from Day 1. I love how Areez claims to know everything about us when there are hundreds of posts of dvader and myself arguing with Skylock over how the Kinect MS showed was the future of video games. We gave it a chance. But the Kinect MS showed wasnt the Kienct we ended up getting. And it certianly did not work with core games like that Star Wars and Steel Battalion games.

S0lidSnake

If you are going to drag my name into a thread topic, you should get your facts straight. First I do not claim to know everything about your arguments with Skylock over the orginal Kinect. Nor do I care whether or not you intially supported the Kinect. 

What I do know, is that neither you nor Dark actually know what happened internally regarding Project Milo. While Milo was intially to be a game for the Kinect, it was eventually canned internally by the folks at MS. Microsoft did not believe that the game would appeal to casual gamers, nor did they believe it would sell well as a stand alone game. Peter Molyneaux publically stated that the biggest challenge with Milo, was convincing the people at MS, that what they were developing with Milo would appeal to a larger audience. 

So what happened with some of the features of Project Milo? Well, a number of Kinect features from Milo were implemented in Fable: The Journey. A fact confirmed by Lionhead creative director Gary Carr. And a convienent fact that seems to be ignored here. So the "false promises" you and DK keep regurgitating,  is not entirley accurate. The Kinect was never really intended to appeal to core gamers. It was intended to acttract the casual gamer, to grow the user base. To allow the Xbox to be a device that would also appeal to the general household. 

Solid you were not here 11 years ago. When MS introduced Xbox Live in 2001, it was the same type of backlash, based on opinions, mis-information, and fanboyism. The backlash for Xbox Live was very similar to some of the stuff I read here about the new Kinect. People dismissed Xbox Live as a gimmick, they said it would fail because online gaming didnt work on the Dreamcast. They said XBL would fail because not everyone had access to a high speed internet connection. They said it would fail because we could game for free on our PC's. Sony even downplayed online gaming and look how they have done a 180 with online gaming. Hect, a lot of guys in the forums, Sony fans, bashed the Xbox for having an internal hardrive!! LOL!! So those same people probably praise the idea now on the Playstation. 

And if you dont like the idea of paywall...be consistent in your stance against paywalls....Cancell your cable subscription as TV is still free today. But I am also a big believer of you get what you pay for regarding serives. Personally I could give a rats arse  if I have to pay to use certain apps, such as youtube on Live. Why? Because I use Live to primarily game and purchase digital content. And because I take comfort in the fact that Live provides me with a stable, consistent and safe platform to game online on. PSN hacked anyone? Its awesome to see Sony finally taking the steps necessary to build a robust and consistant online infrastructure through PSN +.  I'll suscribing to PSN + just as soon as I pick up my PS4 in November. :D

I've been here since before the Lithium days. Maybe System Wars trash were bashing XBL online play, but I saw no such thing in my GGD during my lurking days. Grammaton, Shameus, dvader and Carnage were regulars and they dont seem to recall a backlash on XBL.

You on the other hand have been MIA for the last decade or so. The very people you are accusing of bias have been huge proponents of the Xbox since the OG Xbox. Same guys bought or replaced 3-5 Xbox 360s and still loved the machine because of what it represented. Professor Grammaton and I had a huge fight sometime last year over mendatory XBL fees. The guy has supported the Xbox for as long as I can remember so when he says forcing Kinect upon us is a mistake, you know he isn't doing it because he's not a fan or is misguided. The guy knows his shit.

I haven't played Fable Journey, but are you telling me that it lets you fully interact and develop a relationship with a character in the game? Are you able to have a covnersation with someone in fable Journey? Are you telling me that these Star Wars and Forza Kinect demos at the conference weren't faked?

I am flying right now and the stupid plane wifi wont let me view gifs so I am not sure if they are the ones I was looking for, but these demos are proof that MS faked it all. Who gives a shit if they marketed it to casuals or not? Hell, that makes it even worse and proves our point that with Xbox One they are forcing core gamers to buy a peripheral that was marketed and created just for casuals.

I am not defending Milo. I am presenting to you  with factual information, as to what happened behind the scenes with Milo. As far Fable: Journey, I did not play that installment. Again, I am only reporting what the creative director of Lionhead stated they did with aspects of Milo. Ok so you think the Kinect is not for core gamers. So dont buy it. But at the same time, stop crying about it. Never in my life have I seen so much crying about a game console. Geez you guys are really going to shat bricks when Sony bundles the PS Eye next gen and DRM comes back. LOL. 

never say never. if it sells poorly then they will release a kinectless version. if not then they won't. but at this point i don't believe a word microsoft says. 

[QUOTE="Areez"]

[QUOTE="S0lidSnake"]

Revisionist history.

Apparently everyone hated the idea of XBL back in 2002 even though Socom on PS2's pathetic online infrasturcture was one of the most popular game of its time. XBL was a huge deal back when it launched. heavily marketed as Xbox's killer feature.

Apparently Microsoft did not make any false promises when they had Molyneux and Milo faking a demo lying to everyone. Apparently the Kinect was never downgraded after the initial reveal. Apparently we are all Sony fanboys who always hated Kinect from Day 1. I love how Areez claims to know everything about us when there are hundreds of posts of dvader and myself arguing with Skylock over how the Kinect MS showed was the future of video games. We gave it a chance. But the Kinect MS showed wasnt the Kienct we ended up getting. And it certianly did not work with core games like that Star Wars and Steel Battalion games.

S0lidSnake

If you are going to drag my name into a thread topic, you should get your facts straight. First I do not claim to know everything about your arguments with Skylock over the orginal Kinect. Nor do I care whether or not you intially supported the Kinect. 

What I do know, is that neither you nor Dark actually know what happened internally regarding Project Milo. While Milo was intially to be a game for the Kinect, it was eventually canned internally by the folks at MS. Microsoft did not believe that the game would appeal to casual gamers, nor did they believe it would sell well as a stand alone game. Peter Molyneaux publically stated that the biggest challenge with Milo, was convincing the people at MS, that what they were developing with Milo would appeal to a larger audience. 

So what happened with some of the features of Project Milo? Well, a number of Kinect features from Milo were implemented in Fable: The Journey. A fact confirmed by Lionhead creative director Gary Carr. And a convienent fact that seems to be ignored here. So the "false promises" you and DK keep regurgitating,  is not entirley accurate. The Kinect was never really intended to appeal to core gamers. It was intended to acttract the casual gamer, to grow the user base. To allow the Xbox to be a device that would also appeal to the general household. 

Solid you were not here 11 years ago. When MS introduced Xbox Live in 2001, it was the same type of backlash, based on opinions, mis-information, and fanboyism. The backlash for Xbox Live was very similar to some of the stuff I read here about the new Kinect. People dismissed Xbox Live as a gimmick, they said it would fail because online gaming didnt work on the Dreamcast. They said XBL would fail because not everyone had access to a high speed internet connection. They said it would fail because we could game for free on our PC's. Sony even downplayed online gaming and look how they have done a 180 with online gaming. Hect, a lot of guys in the forums, Sony fans, bashed the Xbox for having an internal hardrive!! LOL!! So those same people probably praise the idea now on the Playstation. 

And if you dont like the idea of paywall...be consistent in your stance against paywalls....Cancell your cable subscription as TV is still free today. But I am also a big believer of you get what you pay for regarding serives. Personally I could give a rats arse  if I have to pay to use certain apps, such as youtube on Live. Why? Because I use Live to primarily game and purchase digital content. And because I take comfort in the fact that Live provides me with a stable, consistent and safe platform to game online on. PSN hacked anyone? Its awesome to see Sony finally taking the steps necessary to build a robust and consistant online infrastructure through PSN +.  I'll suscribing to PSN + just as soon as I pick up my PS4 in November. :D

I've been here since before the Lithium days. Maybe System Wars trash were bashing XBL online play, but I saw no such thing in my GGD during my lurking days. Grammaton, Shameus, dvader and Carnage were regulars and they dont seem to recall a backlash on XBL.

You on the other hand have been MIA for the last decade or so. The very people you are accusing of bias have been huge proponents of the Xbox since the OG Xbox. Same guys bought or replaced 3-5 Xbox 360s and still loved the machine because of what it represented. Professor Grammaton and I had a huge fight sometime last year over mendatory XBL fees. The guy has supported the Xbox for as long as I can remember so when he says forcing Kinect upon us is a mistake, you know he isn't doing it because he's not a fan or is misguided. The guy knows his shit.

I haven't played Fable Journey, but are you telling me that it lets you fully interact and develop a relationship with a character in the game? Are you able to have a covnersation with someone in fable Journey? Are you telling me that these Star Wars and Forza Kinect demos at the conference weren't faked?

I am flying right now and the stupid plane wifi wont let me view gifs so I am not sure if they are the ones I was looking for, but these demos are proof that MS faked it all. Who gives a shit if they marketed it to casuals or not? Hell, that makes it even worse and proves our point that with Xbox One they are forcing core gamers to buy a peripheral that was marketed and created just for casuals.

If you are interested in the Kinect features for Fable: The Journey....Joystiq has a review which highlights some of the kinect features. ..

Some of you guys are really passionate about this. It's a shame there is a lot of inaccuracies being passed along as facts on both sides though. Stop making things up and argue with the facts. Debate of an erroneous nature is ridiculous and a waste of time.

BK...Do you have an idea what actually happened with Project Milo? Milo was essentially canned by MS. MS did not believe that Milo would appeal to a larger audience, the casual gamer. Peter Molyneux even stated that the hardest thing with Milo was convincing the folks at MS, that what he was proposing would work and appeal to a large audience. Milo was canned, but not all of its Kinect features were. Elements of Milo were implemented into Fable: The Journey. A fact confirmed by Lionhead creative director Gary Carr.Areez

A) You are building your whole rebuttal on a minor syntax imprecision, which betrays your lack of arguments. I should have said "will believe their lies now in case they are lying" The rest of my post/s confirm what I'm saying. Glad that's dealt with. B ) When did Sony lie, also, how is that relevant? Even if someone else lies it does not excuse you from lying. We are talking about Microsoft and whether or not their PR is a trustworthy meter of the quality of their upcoming products. Sony has nothing to do with the equation.Black_Knight_00

A rebutal? It was a simple question to which you have avoided throughout all of your responses. I asked what are the lies you were refering to and your answer was deviating from this simple request. We needed to go through this long drawn out breakdown of your post before you mildly concede that you had a "minor syntax imprecision". :|

The relevance is pretty simple, all these companies lie. So I don't see why there is this sudden claim of mistrust towards MS when they all should recieve the same level of caution becuase they all lie.

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"]A) You are building your whole rebuttal on a minor syntax imprecision, which betrays your lack of arguments. I should have said "will believe their lies now in case they are lying" The rest of my post/s confirm what I'm saying. Glad that's dealt with. B ) When did Sony lie, also, how is that relevant? Even if someone else lies it does not excuse you from lying. We are talking about Microsoft and whether or not their PR is a trustworthy meter of the quality of their upcoming products. Sony has nothing to do with the equation.Pedro

A rebutal? It was a simple question to which you have avoided throughout all of your responses. I asked what are the lies you were refering to and your answer was deviating from this simple request. We needed to go through this long drawn out breakdown of your post before you mildly concede that you had a "minor syntax imprecision". :|

The relevance is pretty simple, all these companies lie. So I don't see why there is this sudden claim of mistrust towards MS when they all should recieve the same level of caution becuase they all lie.

[QUOTE="Pedro"]The thing is that you were claiming that they are lying now. That was the core of my inquiry about your claim. Its clear that you are assuming because they lied before they are somehow automatically lying now. Such assertion is pretty weak without any real facts to back it up. Being cautious is very understandable but the cry of foul before being able to verify seems overly dramatic. Sony blatantly lied about the PS3 capabilities and I am weary about their claims this time around but there is no need for me to go verbally ballistic as if I was abused by Sony. All of these companies are trying to make money. When we try to create this illusion of one caring more than the other it just seems absurd. These companies only "care" when their profit margin is on the line, whether it be Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo. Black_Knight_00

Pedro has made some very great points here. And has pointed some inconsistancies in your beleifs and arguments. You have gone on record to say that we should not trust Microsoft. In your last response to me, you mentioned that I should essentially stop believing what corporations say and that I should essentially wake up and smell the coffee. 

This coming from the guy who when presented with facts, by Pedro, that Sony too has lied, replies with "When did Sony lie, how is that relevant?"You are joking right? It is very relevant because you have been dramatically been crying foul about MS and its lies. How MS essentially displayed Vaporware when introducing Milo. And speaking of vaporware, it is not an uncommon practice in gaming. Sony too, has used vaporware and has over promised and under delivered as well. 

So what is baffling to me, is how you bash MS and essentially give Sony a free pass. And to some extent you have as many, taken the stance that Sony is pro-gamer. Pedro bringing up Sony lying in the past is relevant, beause for someone who is up in arms over corporate lies and 180's, you dont seem to be crying foul over the PS4.

Now, would you like examples of what Pedro was referring to as lies from Sony. Let us take a trip down memory lane, to E3 2005 and 2006. When Sony first announced the PS3, the device was to offer full backwards compatibility and at launch it did. The intial PS3 launch consoles had a built-in PS2 chip in the motherboard of the PS3. However, Sony in a cost cutting measure, introduced a new PS3 that only had software based backward compatibility, meaning that many games did not work, many more were broken and many were buggy. This move essentially eliminated the trully backward compatibile launch models of the PS3. I believe you referr to this as doing a 180.

How about all of the games Sony showed at E3 2005 and 2006? Whatever happened to Ni-Oh, Fifth Phantom Saga or some of the other games that looked great but do not exist today. How about Sony's misrepresentation of software around this time. When Jack Tretton would stand on his soap box claiming that what they were showing in demos was real game play. And then years later recanting. Sony  has been very found of using pre-rendered CG movies to show-off the potential of whats possible. The most egregious example of this was the trailer for Eight Days. A shooter that was never released and had a fake user interface laid over the top of the video. 

Oh and let us not forget Sony's Ken Kutaragi's keynote at the 2006 Tokyo Game show. Where he talks about a global map system, and how gamers would map the inside of their homes, allowing game developers access to cheap game levels. :|

And how about this Sony comment, that the PS3 can run games at 120 frames per second, stream six channels of HD and decode one thousand media thumbnails simultanelousy. 

These are some of the examples of what Pedro is referring to. And for someone who is the champion against corporate lies, you seem to have a very one sided stance. One thing is to have cautious optimism, another is to bash and cry foul but then turn a blind eye to another company who engages similar practices.

Pedro has made some very great points here. And has pointed some inconsistancies in your beleifs and arguments. You have gone on record to say that we should not trust Microsoft. In your last response to me, you mentioned that I should essentially stop believing what corporations say and that I should essentially wake up and smell the coffee. This coming from the guy who when presented with facts, by Pedro, that Sony too has lied, replies with "When did Sony lie, how is that relevant?"You are joking right?Areez

[QUOTE="Areez"]Pedro has made some very great points here. And has pointed some inconsistancies in your beleifs and arguments. You have gone on record to say that we should not trust Microsoft. In your last response to me, you mentioned that I should essentially stop believing what corporations say and that I should essentially wake up and smell the coffee. This coming from the guy who when presented with facts, by Pedro, that Sony too has lied, replies with "When did Sony lie, how is that relevant?"You are joking right?Black_Knight_00

Oh no I understand how you feel the kinect did live up to what was showing in the Milo.  What I am pointing it out is your inconsistent stance against corporate BS. You cannot have it both ways and pull the "lies" card when it is convenient for you to do so. I am not excusing MS failure to deliver games that played like Milo. Frankly I could care less. What I do take issue with, is the inconsistancies in your thought process. One cannot take a moral stance and only apply it when it is convenient for them to do so.

I am not excusing MS for lying at all. I am only highlighting that their is an element of marketing, that game devs and manufactures use to create hype. I highlighted this in my FACTUAL examples of empty promises and Sony has demoed too.

And you are right, we cannot change what MS has done or failed to do in your opinion. But again, I do not see you crying foul over Sony and bashing the PS4 because of the lies Sony made about the PS3. And mind you, I gave specific examples of this by Sony. By all means, judge a console by the merit of games and experiences it offers. But lets not rush to judgement until we see the final product. 

One more thing, if you are going to hold MS to the standard you whole heartedy believe in, you should hold Sony to the same level of standard. It is not me who is making excuses but you. Again I do not see you holding the PS4 to the same level of standard based on corporate lies, which apparently you are against. Again, inconsistancies and flat out ignorance to the big here. 

[QUOTE="Pedro"]

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"]A) You are building your whole rebuttal on a minor syntax imprecision, which betrays your lack of arguments. I should have said "will believe their lies now in case they are lying" The rest of my post/s confirm what I'm saying. Glad that's dealt with. B ) When did Sony lie, also, how is that relevant? Even if someone else lies it does not excuse you from lying. We are talking about Microsoft and whether or not their PR is a trustworthy meter of the quality of their upcoming products. Sony has nothing to do with the equation.Black_Knight_00

A rebutal? It was a simple question to which you have avoided throughout all of your responses. I asked what are the lies you were refering to and your answer was deviating from this simple request. We needed to go through this long drawn out breakdown of your post before you mildly concede that you had a "minor syntax imprecision". :|

The relevance is pretty simple, all these companies lie. So I don't see why there is this sudden claim of mistrust towards MS when they all should recieve the same level of caution becuase they all lie.

Its not just MS it could be Sony too. I actually did give you factual examples of Sony doing this. As Pedro has clearly stated, many of these companies lie and exaggerate the truth to get people excited. Its called marketing. So using your logic, could it be feasible that Sony too is lying about the games and features of the PS4? Based on the factual evidence I provided you. Again, it is about consistancy in what you say you trully believe in.