Microsoft: ''Xbox One will never be sold without Kinect''

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"]A) You are building your whole rebuttal on a minor syntax imprecision, which betrays your lack of arguments. I should have said "will believe their lies now in case they are lying" The rest of my post/s confirm what I'm saying. Glad that's dealt with. B ) When did Sony lie, also, how is that relevant? Even if someone else lies it does not excuse you from lying. We are talking about Microsoft and whether or not their PR is a trustworthy meter of the quality of their upcoming products. Sony has nothing to do with the equation.Pedro

A rebutal? It was a simple question to which you have avoided throughout all of your responses. I asked what are the lies you were refering to and your answer was deviating from this simple request. We needed to go through this long drawn out breakdown of your post before you mildly concede that you had a "minor syntax imprecision". :|

The relevance is pretty simple, all these companies lie. So I don't see why there is this sudden claim of mistrust towards MS when they all should recieve the same level of caution becuase they all lie.

Pedro...are you planning on picking up both consoles? Just curious.

man, this has got to be the best fight I've ever not been directly involved in. Every time I stop in, I feel like I should have popcorn with me.El_Zo1212o

As you requested :P

@Areez: You do realize this is a Kinect/MS thread, right? So if Mr. Knight here doesn't feel the need to delve into Sony's past misdeeds here, it's understandable because Sony isn't the topic under discussion. I'd suggest you start a 'Sony's a buch of dirty liars' thread if you want to find out where people stand on that topic.El_Zo1212o

Oh no I do understand. Just pointing out inconsistancies, which started out as a discussion over the kinect. Sony was roped in to provide some factual evidence.  This is a long out debate we have been having in other threads too. :D

Pedro...are you planning on picking up both consoles? Just curious.

Areez

I am interested in both. However, that would be a $1000 investment including tax and excluding games. I am going to exercise some restraint and take a wait and see approach. At this moment, we are berated with lots of PR and mis-information so its hard to decifer what is true and what isn't. When the cat is finally out of the box it would be easier to determine which one would get my first sale. On a side note, if I am allowed to develope for one system faster than the next then I would purchase the one I got approval from first :D.

Ok so you think the Kinect is not for core gamers. So dont buy it. But at the same time, stop crying about it. Never in my life have I seen so much crying about a game console. Geez you guys are really going to shat bricks when Sony bundles the PS Eye next gen and DRM comes back. LOL.

Areez

It really is quite telling that you keep falling back on this notion of people's distain for the XBONE being predicated on fandom when in reality, as Solid has already pointed out, many of us who are currently shunning the system have been stalwart supporters of MS for years.

Also, I was posting on these forums back when this site was called Videogames.com and that backlash you claim occurred in response to the XBL reveal never happened; to assert otherwise is propagandist fiction. To be certain some people were irate over the pay wall but the idea that people were unhappy with a progressive online model for console gaming is asinine.

You may not want to admit it but there are some very sound and logical reasons for core gamers to reject, at least initially, the XBONE.

You may not want to admit it but there are some very sound and logical reasons for core gamers to reject, at least initially, the XBONE.Grammaton-Cleric

Oh no I understand how you feel the kinect did live up to what was showing in the Milo. What I am pointing it out is your inconsistent stance against corporate BS. You cannot have it both ways and pull the "lies" card when it is convenient for you to do so. I am not excusing MS failure to deliver games that played like Milo. Frankly I could care less. What I do take issue with, is the inconsistancies in your thought process. One cannot take a moral stance and only apply it when it is convenient for them to do so. I am not excusing MS for lying at all. I am only highlighting that their is an element of marketing, that game devs and manufactures use to create hype. I highlighted this in my FACTUAL examples of empty promises and Sony has demoed too. And you are right, we cannot change what MS has done or failed to do in your opinion. But again, I do not see you crying foul over Sony and bashing the PS4 because of the lies Sony made about the PS3. And mind you, I gave specific examples of this by Sony. By all means, judge a console by the merit of games and experiences it offers. But lets not rush to judgement until we see the final product. One more thing, if you are going to hold MS to the standard you whole heartedy believe in, you should hold Sony to the same level of standard. It is not me who is making excuses but you. Again I do not see you holding the PS4 to the same level of standard based on corporate lies, which apparently you are against. Again, inconsistancies and flat out ignorance to the big here. Areez

1) Backwards compatibility was never a lie: Sony decided to retool the PS3 in order to achieve the massive price drop that people were demanding and this entailed the removal of the feature along with some minor hardware downgrades such as the SD card reader. People wanted a cheaper consoles and they got one.

2) The Killzone 2 CGI fake gameplay (I think that's the most blatant case) was indeed a ludicrous lie and anyone with eyes could tell it was a fraud. Still, the game was in pre-alpha at the time and when it eventually came out and looked pretty much as good as that bullshit video did. Irony.

3) As I understand it, the 120 fps thing was speculation, a "PS3 could theoretically run games at 120fps" and not a "PS3 will run games at 120fps"

I still don't perceive any of those to be compatable in weight to the promises (and I underline "promises") made about kinect 4 years ago. Let's spell them out, shall we: "Kinect will recognize your face" "Kinect will allow 1:1 motion interaction with games" "Kinect can scan real objects and render them in the game" "Milo is a complex AI person able to interact with you" "kinect can render clothes on your body in real time" "Kinect can tell one person from the other on the couch and call them by name"

Oh and by the way, Xbox One games at E3 ran on high-end PCs even though they were in "try the Xbox One" booths. Not kinect-related, but let's just throw this one on the pile too.

They all lie at some point, but I think the scale is tipped on microsoft's side, but sure, be my guest and call me a fanboy.

[QUOTE="Areez"]Oh no I understand how you feel the kinect did live up to what was showing in the Milo. What I am pointing it out is your inconsistent stance against corporate BS. You cannot have it both ways and pull the "lies" card when it is convenient for you to do so. I am not excusing MS failure to deliver games that played like Milo. Frankly I could care less. What I do take issue with, is the inconsistancies in your thought process. One cannot take a moral stance and only apply it when it is convenient for them to do so. I am not excusing MS for lying at all. I am only highlighting that their is an element of marketing, that game devs and manufactures use to create hype. I highlighted this in my FACTUAL examples of empty promises and Sony has demoed too. And you are right, we cannot change what MS has done or failed to do in your opinion. But again, I do not see you crying foul over Sony and bashing the PS4 because of the lies Sony made about the PS3. And mind you, I gave specific examples of this by Sony. By all means, judge a console by the merit of games and experiences it offers. But lets not rush to judgement until we see the final product. One more thing, if you are going to hold MS to the standard you whole heartedy believe in, you should hold Sony to the same level of standard. It is not me who is making excuses but you. Again I do not see you holding the PS4 to the same level of standard based on corporate lies, which apparently you are against. Again, inconsistancies and flat out ignorance to the big here. Black_Knight_00

1) Backwards compatibility was never a lie: Sony decided to retool the PS3 in order to achieve the massive price drop that people were demanding and this entailed the removal of the feature along with some minor hardware downgrades such as the SD card reader. People wanted a cheaper consoles and they got one.

2) The Killzone 2 CGI fake gameplay (I think that's the most blatant case) was indeed a ludicrous lie and anyone with eyes could tell it was a fraud. Still, the game was in pre-alpha at the time and when it eventually came out and looked pretty much as good as that bullshit video did. Irony.

3) As I understand it, the 120 fps thing was speculation, a "PS3 could theoretically run games at 120fps" and not a "PS3 will run games at 120fps"

I still don't perceive any of those to be compatable in weight to the promises (and I underline "promises") made about kinect 4 years ago. Let's spell them out, shall we: "Kinect will recognize your face" "Kinect will allow 1:1 motion interaction with games" "Kinect can scan real objects and render them in the game" "Milo is a complex AI person able to interact with you" "kinect can render clothes on your body in real time" "Kinect can tell one person from the other on the couch and call them by name"

Oh and by the way, Xbox One games at E3 ran on high-end PCs even though they were in "try the Xbox One" booths. Not kinect-related, but let's just throw this one on the pile too.

They all lie at some point, but I think the scale is tipped on microsoft's side, but sure, be my guest and call me a fanboy.

You just described the Kinect 2. Interesting. Perhaps MS was laying the foundation here for the future???? :shock: On a serious note...You are still missing the broader point here. That all companies do lie and spin a lot of information for marketing purposes. And if you are against corporate lies, well a lie is a lie no matter how big or small the lie is. What I do not agree with too is you and the peanut gallery hoping that the Xbox One fails. I for one like the idea of two competiting consoles. It benefits the consumer and it drives innovation. And lets face it, the gaming industry is behind the curve to PC's, digital media and mobile devices. Change seems to be slow.

You just described the Kinect 2. Interesting. Perhaps MS was laying the foundation here for the future???? On a serious note...You are still missing the broader point here. That all companies do lie and spin a lot of information for marketing purposes. And if you are against corporate lies, well a lie is a lie no matter how big or small the lie is. What I do not agree with too is you and the peanut gallery hoping that the Xbox One fails. I for one like the idea of two competiting consoles. It benefits the consumer and it drives innovation. And lets face it, the gaming industry is behind the curve to PC's, digital media and mobile devices. Change seems to be slow.Areez

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]You may not want to admit it but there are some very sound and logical reasons for core gamers to reject, at least initially, the XBONE.El_Zo1212o

- The XBONE is weaker than the PS4 meaning that multiplats should run better on the latter console and currently, my primary reason for nabbing a system at launch is for games such as Watch Dogs and AC: Black Flag

- The XBONE is overpriced despite being the weaker hardware specifically because of the inclusion of a peripheral device I do not want and refuse to pay for.

- The inclusion of Kinnect strongly suggests that MS is more interested in the casual consumer than the core enthusiast and since I am the latter I am currently moving away from their console until such time as I feel secure that they are catering to my tastes and predilections as a consumer.

- At this particular time since both systems are offering relatively similar experiences and sharing many of the same games, it makes sense to purchase the console that is both stronger and cheaper than the competition.

- Despite being a longtime advocate of XBL, I actually prefer Sony's overall online methodology and subscription service as it does a better job of incentivizing membership with far more discounts and freebies.

-Objectively I think the XBONE has a slightly better lineup but subjectively the only exclusive I care about is Dead Rising 3. I also think Sony has a much better first party division and within the next year that superiority will once again become prevalent as we move forward.

I will probably get an XBONE at some point but for now I cannot justify the price, especially given that I loathe Kinnect.

But clearly, we all have our own metrics for deciding what to buy when. What I offer here is merely the POV of one specific core gamer.

[QUOTE="Areez"]

Pedro...are you planning on picking up both consoles? Just curious.

Pedro

I am interested in both. However, that would be a $1000 investment including tax and excluding games. I am going to exercise some restraint and take a wait and see approach. At this moment, we are berated with lots of PR and mis-information so its hard to decifer what is true and what isn't. When the cat is finally out of the box it would be easier to determine which one would get my first sale. On a side note, if I am allowed to develope for one system faster than the next then I would purchase the one I got approval from first :D.

The PR and spin has been out of control and I have too read a lot of mis-information out there as well. I do believe that we have two rock solid consoles and I am very excited by the prospects of that, and what that will mean for us as gamers. Best of luck to you on the development side. That is awesome!!!

I actually had the privlege of beta testing over at Bethesda Software as they are located very close to where I live. It was an awesome experience and I got some great insight into the development process. 

What I do not agree with too is you and the peanut gallery hoping that the Xbox One fails.

Areez

I don't want the system to fail but I do hope it gets trounced by the PS4 this holiday season which in turn forces MS to either drop the price or release a version of the console without Kinnect.

Personally, I don't care if they include a Kinnect or not but I have no intention of paying 100 dollars extra for something I do not want.

Sony learned this lesson the hard way when they foisted Blue ray onto the masses using their PS brand and I think MS might be getting a similar dose of bitter medicine for arrogantly assuming that consumers would blindly shell out money for features many of us simply don't care for.

[QUOTE="El_Zo1212o"][QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]You may not want to admit it but there are some very sound and logical reasons for core gamers to reject, at least initially, the XBONE.Grammaton-Cleric

- The XBONE is weaker than the PS4 meaning that multiplats should run better on the latter console and currently, my primary reason for nabbing a system at launch is for games such as Watch Dogs and AC: Black Flag

- The XBONE is overpriced despite being the weaker hardware specifically because of the inclusion of a peripheral device I do not want and refuse to pay for.

- The inclusion of Kinnect strongly suggests that MS is more interested in the casual consumer than the core enthusiast and since I am the latter I am currently moving away from their console until such time as I feel secure that they are catering to my tastes and predilections as a consumer.

- At this particular time since both systems are offering relatively similar experiences and sharing many of the same games, it makes sense to purchase the console that is both stronger and cheaper than the competition.

- Despite being a longtime advocate of XBL, I actually prefer Sony's overall online methodology and subscription service as it does a better job of incentivizing membership with far more discounts and freebies.

-Objectively I think the XBONE has a slightly better lineup but subjectively the only exclusive I care about is Dead Rising 3. I also think Sony has a much better first party division and within the next year that superiority will once again become prevalent as we move forward.

I will probably get an XBONE at some point but for now I cannot justify the price, especially given that I loathe Kinnect.

But clearly, we all have our own metrics for deciding what to buy when. What I offer here is merely the POV of one specific core gamer.

Microsoft seriously suck. Give people the option! Either way, PS4 is the way to go next gen!

Solid I WAS the backlash against XBL. :P Pay money to play online, what a piece of crap. Still is. dvader654

Like Grammaton said, the only backlash XBL received was for the online fee. Areez is saying the backlash was because Sony fans did not want to play online. That is pure fabrication. Online was popular on the Dreamcast and judging from the success of Socom, it was popular on the PS2. 

That's really stupid for people like me who have absolutely no interest in the kinect... It's absolutely useless to me in every way. Congratulations, Microsoft. You managed to upset yet another customer and push them one step closer to buying a ps4. Are the games really supposed to be $100?

.... and that is how microsoft listening to their pockets Sorry I mean coustomers

-You just can't argue with free stuff. But I don't like the idea that if my subscription lapses(which my Gold account certainly has done once or twice)all my freebies go up in smoke(do PS+ goodies come back when you get around to renewing?). I understand that they're offering newer software and it is in all likelyhood a fair tradeoff, but it just rubs me the wrong way.

On the whole, the biggest reason I was relieved that they backed off of the always connected kinect scheme was because I wouldn't bring that into my home, and now I get to keep my gamertag. I've spent a lot of time building gamerscore and earning achievements(some of which I'm extremely proud of), and to me, my gamertag is as much who I am online as my facebook(and if that sounds strange to anyone, well blow me).El_Zo1212o

If your PS+ account expires you'll regain access to those titles whenever you resubscribe to the service. I didn't have it for the last four months on account that nothing new interested me, but now I have everything again. I also really like that PS+ covers multiple devices. It was cool getting a Vita and being able to download the free games for it.

And I'm the same way with my trophies. I don't necessarily play for trophies/achievments but I have a shit load and some that I'm very proud of, such as my Dark Souls platinum. I also treat my trophy list as a log of sorts, and I love that it's transferring from the PS3 to the PS4 and it is a plus for me. It wouldn't be a deal breaker if I wanted to move to the Xbone, but I definitely get where you're coming from.

Microsoft is like a toddler shoving their fingers into their ears and yelling "not listening!" with this BS. They KNOW people don't want to deal with their oh-so-precious "vision" (and after their constant backpeddling we know this is non-existent). Why not let these people buy the console at a cheaper price? The ignorance and arrogance is nothing short of astounding. 

Microsoft is like a toddler shoving their fingers into their ears and yelling "not listening!" with this BS. They KNOW people don't want to deal with their oh-so-precious "vision" (and after their constant backpeddling we know this is non-existent). Why not let these people buy the console at a cheaper price? The ignorance and arrogance is nothing short of astounding. 

Vari3ty

Microsoft is like a toddler shoving their fingers into their ears and yelling "not listening!" with this BS. They KNOW people don't want to deal with their oh-so-precious "vision" (and after their constant backpeddling we know this is non-existent). Why not let these people buy the console at a cheaper price? The ignorance and arrogance is nothing short of astounding.

Vari3ty

If the Xbone falls onto its face shortly after launch (nods towards the Wii U) I'm sure MS will make adjustments.

[QUOTE="Vari3ty"]

Microsoft is like a toddler shoving their fingers into their ears and yelling "not listening!" with this BS. They KNOW people don't want to deal with their oh-so-precious "vision" (and after their constant backpeddling we know this is non-existent). Why not let these people buy the console at a cheaper price? The ignorance and arrogance is nothing short of astounding. 

Black_Knight_00

I was listening to the Weekend Confirmed podcast and they were talking about the device and how important it was to have it included with every system in order to be successful. Which got me thinking: why is there this supposition that because something gets packed in it's going to be successful? We need look no further than the Wii U to know that isn't true. Every single system comes with that game tablet, and developers have used it for fvck all. After all this time, have developers shown that they want motion controls AT ALL? Or are they just trying to tack them on to conventional ideas, like someone dabbing their toe in a cold lake before deciding against going for a swim? I think it's super ballsy of these hardware companies to just allege that the developement community sees possibilities for something without having any proof of such before doing so.

And you know? Maybe that's the problem with the way things are being done these days. Hardware companies are making hardware supplements that developers really aren't asking for. I mean, did anyone in the development community petition Nintendo to make a tablet? Does anyone believe, having seen three years' worth of output, that developers lobbied Microsoft to make Kinect? Which begs another question: why can't the hardware people even come up with great uses for these devices they are arbitrarily shitting out? Ask most people who own a Wii U, and they'll tell you the company that made best use of the tablet wasn't Nintendo, but Ubisoft with Zombie U. That would have been fine and good if it had sparked ideas in the rest of the community, but it hasn't. It used to be that bar none, before any accessory was released, the hardware company had a proof of concept for it -- something that showed the development community that there were creative possibilities with the device. But not anymore.

I think what all this shows is that hardware companies aren't getting input from the people who would be able to help the most: developers. A developer would have been able to tell Nintendo the Wiimote was going to be shit for racing and fighting games, but they probably didn't ask. A developer could have told Microsoft that the Kinect was a lagged-out piece of shit, but they probably didn't ask. A developer could have told Nintendo that they wouldn't really have many novel uses for a tablet beyond a map screen, but they probably didn't ask. 

My point? Maybe they should start ASKING DEVELOPERS what they want; what helps THEM realize concepts that currently can't be realized. Because hardware companies are doing a supemely shitty job of coming up with new control implements, and are not asking themselves whether developers even want them at the end of the day. 

Microsoft is like a toddler shoving their fingers into their ears and yelling "not listening!" with this BS. They KNOW people don't want to deal with their oh-so-precious "vision" (and after their constant backpeddling we know this is non-existent). Why not let these people buy the console at a cheaper price? The ignorance and arrogance is nothing short of astounding. 

Vari3ty

[QUOTE="Vari3ty"]

Microsoft is like a toddler shoving their fingers into their ears and yelling "not listening!" with this BS. They KNOW people don't want to deal with their oh-so-precious "vision" (and after their constant backpeddling we know this is non-existent). Why not let these people buy the console at a cheaper price? The ignorance and arrogance is nothing short of astounding. 

firefox59

Honestly, how well do you think a $500 platform with an unpopular device (at least among people who like precise controls) packed in is going to be? 

Did everyone suddenly forget the wall Sony ran into with $500-$600 hardware? Why will it be any prettier this time? In that sense, Microsoft has been VERY ignorant, because history has shown a hundred dollar difference can have a HUGE impact on how well a system does. If Microsoft couldn't release their console at a reasonable price and still kept Kinect in, they should have come up with another solution. This one will not work as they are hoping. 

[QUOTE="Vari3ty"]

Microsoft is like a toddler shoving their fingers into their ears and yelling "not listening!" with this BS. They KNOW people don't want to deal with their oh-so-precious "vision" (and after their constant backpeddling we know this is non-existent). Why not let these people buy the console at a cheaper price? The ignorance and arrogance is nothing short of astounding. 

firefox59

[QUOTE="Vari3ty"]

Microsoft is like a toddler shoving their fingers into their ears and yelling "not listening!" with this BS. They KNOW people don't want to deal with their oh-so-precious "vision" (and after their constant backpeddling we know this is non-existent). Why not let these people buy the console at a cheaper price? The ignorance and arrogance is nothing short of astounding.

Black_Knight_00

If the Kinect (still a strong seller last I heard) is any indicator MS could sell Kinect 2s separately. Dancing and fitness games have a very big audience (its amazing that the Wii U's casual controller cannot tap into that audience). *Shrugs* Of course, there might not be much overlap between early adopters and dancing game fans, but both groups exist in numbers.

I think Kinect will be great... for non-gaming applications like menu waving navigation and such. Microsoft should have just made a Kinect DVR cable box seperately from their gaming platform. I'll never purchase the Xbox One with a Kinect data mining device attached, even knowing I can unplug it. I don't like to purchase things I'll never use.

If the Kinect (still a strong seller last I heard) is any indicator MS could sell Kinect 2s separately. Dancing and fitness games have a very big audience (its amazing that the Wii U's casual controller cannot tap into that audience). *Shrugs* Of course, there might not be much overlap between early adopters and dancing game fans, but both groups exist in numbers.CarnageHeart

[QUOTE="CarnageHeart"]If the Kinect (still a strong seller last I heard) is any indicator MS could sell Kinect 2s separately. Dancing and fitness games have a very big audience (its amazing that the Wii U's casual controller cannot tap into that audience). *Shrugs* Of course, there might not be much overlap between early adopters and dancing game fans, but both groups exist in numbers.Black_Knight_00

Demand exists but it only exists in some genres. MS seems to think that they can broaden the appeal of the Kinect by forcing it on people, but I don't think it works that way. Fans (and designers) of fighting games aren't going to decide that motion control is the best way to control fighters just a motion sensor comes packed with their system.

Demand exists but it only exists in some genres. MS seems to think that they can broaden the appeal of the Kinect by forcing it on people, but I don't think it works that way. Fans (and designers) of fighting games aren't going to decide that motion control is the best way to control fighters just a motion sensor comes packed with their system.

CarnageHeart

Furthermore, motion controls are already a thing of the past: the Oculus Rift is basically behind the corner, and while the price will be a huge hurdle for the device, motion believers are already looking at that eye-melter rather than kinect, Move and all that crap.

[QUOTE="CarnageHeart"]Demand exists but it only exists in some genres. MS seems to think that they can broaden the appeal of the Kinect by forcing it on people, but I don't think it works that way. Fans (and designers) of fighting games aren't going to decide that motion control is the best way to control fighters just a motion sensor comes packed with their system.

Black_Knight_00

Furthermore, motion controls are already a thing of the past: the Oculus Rift is basically behind the corner, and while the price will be a huge hurdle for the device, motion believers are already looking at that eye-melter rather than kinect, Move and all that crap.

Like I said, motion controls have their uses in some genres. The PS Move is a favorite tool of creators in LBP2 because it allows them to paint textures (the really hardcore have even created animaed sprites) and the Move in the upcoming still untitled MM PS4 game allows creators to sculpt object and then animate them. I believe smart people will do great things with the Kinect enabled mocap in Project Spark.

Like I said, motion controls have their uses in some genres. The PS Move is a favorite tool of creators in LBP2 because it allows them to paint textures (the really hardcore have even created animaed sprites) and the Move in the upcoming still untitled MM PS4 game allows creators to sculpt object and then animate them. I believe smart people will do great things with the Kinect enabled mocap in Project Spark.CarnageHeart

[QUOTE="CarnageHeart"]Like I said, motion controls have their uses in some genres. The PS Move is a favorite tool of creators in LBP2 because it allows them to paint textures (the really hardcore have even created animaed sprites) and the Move in the upcoming still untitled MM PS4 game allows creators to sculpt object and then animate them. I believe smart people will do great things with the Kinect enabled mocap in Project Spark.Black_Knight_00

I'm sure the Assassin's Creed team (for whom money and manpower isn't an object) isn't going to use Kinect mocap to handle the animations of its characters (they will use a mix of animators and those full body suits with the little dots) but an indie or someone making a Project Spark game might.

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"][QUOTE="CarnageHeart"]Like I said, motion controls have their uses in some genres. The PS Move is a favorite tool of creators in LBP2 because it allows them to paint textures (the really hardcore have even created animaed sprites) and the Move in the upcoming still untitled MM PS4 game allows creators to sculpt object and then animate them. I believe smart people will do great things with the Kinect enabled mocap in Project Spark.CarnageHeart

I'm sure the Assassin's Creed team (for whom money and manpower isn't an object) isn't going to use Kinect mocap to handle the animations of its characters (they will use a mix of animators and those full body suits with the little dots) but an indie or someone making a Project Spark game might.

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"][QUOTE="Vari3ty"]

Microsoft is like a toddler shoving their fingers into their ears and yelling "not listening!" with this BS. They KNOW people don't want to deal with their oh-so-precious "vision" (and after their constant backpeddling we know this is non-existent). Why not let these people buy the console at a cheaper price? The ignorance and arrogance is nothing short of astounding.

CarnageHeart

If the Kinect (still a strong seller last I heard) is any indicator MS could sell Kinect 2s separately. Dancing and fitness games have a very big audience (its amazing that the Wii U's casual controller cannot tap into that audience). *Shrugs* Of course, there might not be much overlap between early adopters and dancing game fans, but both groups exist in numbers.

Their is a reason why they are not selling tbe device seperate. They have verbally committed themselves to game devs, that every Xbox will come with the new kinect 2. It is part of their strategy so that every game will have some Kinect feature included. 

[QUOTE="CarnageHeart"]Like I said, motion controls have their uses in some genres. The PS Move is a favorite tool of creators in LBP2 because it allows them to paint textures (the really hardcore have even created animaed sprites) and the Move in the upcoming still untitled MM PS4 game allows creators to sculpt object and then animate them. I believe smart people will do great things with the Kinect enabled mocap in Project Spark.Black_Knight_00

And how does one garner more third party support for a peripheral? You include it in or with the device it is intended to support. 

And how does one garner more third party support for a peripheral? You include it in or with the device it is intended to support. Areez

People are complaining about kinect. Just about everyone you talk to hates at this moment. But whats so bad about the kinect? There arent any great games that use it. If they could come up with 2 great core game series that use the kinect people's minds will change.

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"][QUOTE="Vari3ty"]

Microsoft is like a toddler shoving their fingers into their ears and yelling "not listening!" with this BS. They KNOW people don't want to deal with their oh-so-precious "vision" (and after their constant backpeddling we know this is non-existent). Why not let these people buy the console at a cheaper price? The ignorance and arrogance is nothing short of astounding. 

Shame-usBlackley

I was listening to the Weekend Confirmed podcast and they were talking about the device and how important it was to have it included with every system in order to be successful. Which got me thinking: why is there this supposition that because something gets packed in it's going to be successful? We need look no further than the Wii U to know that isn't true. Every single system comes with that game tablet, and developers have used it for fvck all. After all this time, have developers shown that they want motion controls AT ALL? Or are they just trying to tack them on to conventional ideas, like someone dabbing their toe in a cold lake before deciding against going for a swim? I think it's super ballsy of these hardware companies to just allege that the developement community sees possibilities for something without having any proof of such before doing so.

And you know? Maybe that's the problem with the way things are being done these days. Hardware companies are making hardware supplements that developers really aren't asking for. I mean, did anyone in the development community petition Nintendo to make a tablet? Does anyone believe, having seen three years' worth of output, that developers lobbied Microsoft to make Kinect? Which begs another question: why can't the hardware people even come up with great uses for these devices they are arbitrarily shitting out? Ask most people who own a Wii U, and they'll tell you the company that made best use of the tablet wasn't Nintendo, but Ubisoft with Zombie U. That would have been fine and good if it had sparked ideas in the rest of the community, but it hasn't. It used to be that bar none, before any accessory was released, the hardware company had a proof of concept for it -- something that showed the development community that there were creative possibilities with the device. But not anymore.

I think what all this shows is that hardware companies aren't getting input from the people who would be able to help the most: developers. A developer would have been able to tell Nintendo the Wiimote was going to be shit for racing and fighting games, but they probably didn't ask. A developer could have told Microsoft that the Kinect was a lagged-out piece of shit, but they probably didn't ask. A developer could have told Nintendo that they wouldn't really have many novel uses for a tablet beyond a map screen, but they probably didn't ask. 

My point? Maybe they should start ASKING DEVELOPERS what they want; what helps THEM realize concepts that currently can't be realized. Because hardware companies are doing a supemely shitty job of coming up with new control implements, and are not asking themselves whether developers even want them at the end of the day. 

The Wii U is a bad example. This debate is not as simple as comparing the kinect 2 to the Wii U or the price point of one console vs. another. 

A lot of core gamers are so core-centric, that they are missing the big picture as to what is actually happening with the industry as a whole. I ll get to this later.

They think that a device sucks because, it is does not offer the same precision as a physical controller. While yes, it may not be as precise and practical for all gaming applications,  it was also never intended to replace the physical control. Its existence is meant to compliment and broaden the appeal of gaming to the casual gaming market. 

The Wii U is THE controller for the system. Nintendo has essentially redesign its own controller, into the Wii U. It is almost as if they combined the DS and Wii controller together. And lets face it, the tech seems a bit behind the bell curve here.  Especially as it relates to the tech behind the touch screen. It should at the very least offer a touch experience to that of an iPhone.

But to simplify the debate and say the Wii U is an example of why bundling motion controls does not work, is not entirely painting the bigger picture. The Wii U's shortcomings are bigger than bundling the tablwt/controller. Nintendo is just simply a gaming console and it refuses to offer any other value added features that its competitors do. It is loosing third-party support (third party games do not sell well on Nintendo), and despite the popularity of online gaming, only recently has Nintendo dove into the online world.  Although its attempts are not at the same level as Sony and MS.

Did the developers go to MS and ask for a kinect like device? Did devs go banging the doors down at Sega and MS for online play? Who absolutely knows 100% for sure. But they have been exploring ways to deliver new experiences.  And Devs despite the core-centric views of gamers here,  want to tap into that casual user base. 

The gaming industry,  cannot survive on core gamers alone. It needs the dollars of the casual gamer, to grow and expand future user bases. The console buisness is under a major threat, by the easy and flexibility of mobile devices. Mobile devices may not attract the core console gamer, but it is doing its fair share of eating into the casual gaming segment.

And with the threat of Google creating a set-top box, with Android based games accessible in the living room, watch out. See imagine taking your droid phone, downloading a game to it and then having access to said game through your tv, via cloud, via a Google set top box.

These motion devices are more so an attempt,  to broaden the appeal of gaming consoles. As gaming consoles can no longer thrive as just be gaming consoles. Its a bit pre-mature to write off the Kinect 2, because we do not believe the device lived up to its potential. And to your point of the device being a lag infested piece of shat...well thats a very dramatic exaggeration and based on perception.  Granted it is not as precise as a controller,  but it did adequately service its purpose. Time will tell. 

[QUOTE="jekyll"]People are acting like this $100 is some horrible deal-breaker. They're talking about $100 over the life of something you'll have until 2020. And then when MS has awesome Kinect stuff and PS4 fanboys get jealous, they'll shell out the $100 for whatever peripheral Sony dreams up to compete.

dvader654

[QUOTE="dvader654"][QUOTE="jekyll"]People are acting like this $100 is some horrible deal-breaker. They're talking about $100 over the life of something you'll have until 2020. And then when MS has awesome Kinect stuff and PS4 fanboys get jealous, they'll shell out the $100 for whatever peripheral Sony dreams up to compete.

jekyll

The highest adoption rates for a console occurs around the $199-$249 point. The Xbone is double that. The hundred makes a HUGE difference, not only because it's a lot to ask for a console and is going to make it take longer for Microsoft to get to those competitive pricepoints, but also because historical evidence suggests so.

The argument that it's only X more is kind of nebulous anyway. A lot of people want to own Sig Sauers (which only cost 20% more than a comparable Springfield), but don't because they cost more. Also, from an economics perspective, the Xbone and the PS4 are going to be what would be referred to as "substitutes" which are goods that are almost identical to other goods. In economics, when one substitute is lower in price, the demand curve for the higher priced substitute drops by shifting in. That's not opinion, that's economics. The Xbone is going to struggle hard. 

[QUOTE="dvader654"][QUOTE="jekyll"]People are acting like this $100 is some horrible deal-breaker. They're talking about $100 over the life of something you'll have until 2020. And then when MS has awesome Kinect stuff and PS4 fanboys get jealous, they'll shell out the $100 for whatever peripheral Sony dreams up to compete.

jekyll

[QUOTE="jekyll"]

[QUOTE="dvader654"] If $100 is no big deal at all why don't you give me $100. Sorry but $100 is more than enough to make normal people think twice.Shame-usBlackley

The highest adoption rates for a console occurs around the $199-$249 point. The Xbone is double that. The hundred makes a HUGE difference, not only because it's a lot to ask for a console and is going to make it take longer for Microsoft to get to those competitive pricepoints, but also because historical evidence suggests so.

The argument that it's only X more is kind of nebulous anyway. A lot of people want to own Sig Sauers (which only cost 20% more than a comparable Springfield), but don't because they cost more. Also, from an economics perspective, the Xbone and the PS4 are going to be what would be referred to as "substitutes" which are goods that are almost identical to other goods. In economics, when one substitute is lower in price, the demand curve for the higher priced substitute drops by shifting in. That's not opinion, that's economics. The Xbone is going to struggle hard. 

In theory yes. However, you will still have consumers who prefer brand A over brand B, where the lower price point of B; will not sway consumers to go to B. However, game consoles are not the best example of "substitutes" as lets say coke and pepsi.  Game consoles are more like Complimentary goods.Why? Because game consoles only work if you play games on them. If the price of game consoles go down, software sales go up. Hence the compliment. The chllenge with consoles is being able to provide quality and value. We could argue, that the lack of this, has been at the core of Nintendo's struggle with the Wii U. 

Regarding the $100 difference..... In fairness you cannot discount the fact the Xbox One is bundled with an added on hardware device. Regardless of your own personal beliefs, the device does add additional value in features. The Kinect 2 is the reason why we have $100 price difference. And you also do not take into account from a value perspective, outside of games, what each console offfers day one in usable features out of the box.  Examples are online connectivity, speach and motion control for devices and blu ray etc....Had both consoles only offered a controller, and game console, you would have very valid point in terms of price.

And if you want to use the "substitutes" theory for the sake of your own argument, than the Wii U should have no problem outselling both the Playstation 4 and Xbox One. Do any of us actually beilieve that is going to happen? 

[QUOTE="jekyll"]

[QUOTE="dvader654"][QUOTE="jekyll"]People are acting like this $100 is some horrible deal-breaker. They're talking about $100 over the life of something you'll have until 2020. And then when MS has awesome Kinect stuff and PS4 fanboys get jealous, they'll shell out the $100 for whatever peripheral Sony dreams up to compete.

firefox59

Exactly. You are not just giving away $100. You are getting an added device that provides some additionl value. For me, having the Kinect 2, will potentially save me $200 on buying  universal home theater remote, as it can control all of my home theater devices and cable box. Hence, added value for me. 

Emotionally people get wrapped up in MS being greedy and forcing things on the consumer. Instead of taking an objective look, from a value add perspective of what each console offers today and 5 years from now. 

 For me, having the Kinect 2, will potentially save me $200 on buying  universal home theater remote, as it can control all of my home theater devices and cable box. 

Areez

Wait, what? Where do you find universal remotes for $200?

My universal remote controls everything I have and it cost me $16.