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Theokhoth

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#201 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts
[QUOTE="Chutebox"][QUOTE="xscrapzx"]

Its amazing that people still have this discussion. A lot of you guys to have agree to disagree because all in all thats what it has to come down too. I do believe though that if a women decides to do this it should be up to her and no one else, especially not up for the court of public opinion. I don't believe it is anybodies right to tell what a women can and can't do with her body. I don't believe it should be used for an option of birth control, but should be an available option.

eggdog1234

When a woman is pregnant, it is not just her body.

People stress the rights of a woman but don't care for the rights of the baby growing inside them.

You don't have rights until you have a driver license.

I guess I won't go to jail for killing my neighbor's brat, then.

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Funky_Llama

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#202 Funky_Llama
Member since 2006 • 18428 Posts
[QUOTE="SuperVegeta518"][QUOTE="tofu-lion91"][QUOTE="SuperVegeta518"][QUOTE="tofu-lion91"]

[QUOTE="SuperVegeta518"]Pretty much your opinion is that you're okay with murder if that person causes an inconvenience.xscrapzx

I wouldn't exactly call a fetus a person. And I wouldn't abort after a certain amount of weeks.

How is a fetus not a human being?

Because it's a fetus :| It doesn't breathe or think. It isn't concious. Anyways I'm not saying killing babies is great or even right, I just stand for choice that's all.

There are people that can't breathe, and a fetus can move so how do you know that it can't thnk? How do you know that it isn't in some way conscience. No one can even be sure that they themselves or the world around them actually exists. Yet that doesn't make it right to kill another person.

I just took a look around and notice that I live on a planet and there are trees that I can tough, flowers I can smell.

How do you know that's not illusion?

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xscrapzx

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#203 xscrapzx
Member since 2007 • 6636 Posts
[QUOTE="xscrapzx"][QUOTE="SuperVegeta518"][QUOTE="tofu-lion91"][QUOTE="SuperVegeta518"][QUOTE="tofu-lion91"]

[QUOTE="SuperVegeta518"]Pretty much your opinion is that you're okay with murder if that person causes an inconvenience.Funky_Llama

I wouldn't exactly call a fetus a person. And I wouldn't abort after a certain amount of weeks.

How is a fetus not a human being?

Because it's a fetus :| It doesn't breathe or think. It isn't concious. Anyways I'm not saying killing babies is great or even right, I just stand for choice that's all.

There are people that can't breathe, and a fetus can move so how do you know that it can't thnk? How do you know that it isn't in some way conscience. No one can even be sure that they themselves or the world around them actually exists. Yet that doesn't make it right to kill another person.

I just took a look around and notice that I live on a planet and there are trees that I can tough, flowers I can smell.

How do you know that's not illusion?

Well if you want to go to that extent than thats fine, but until proven otherwise everything that is around me exsists. I mean do we really have to go the Matrix theory to prove your point? :roll:

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MagnumPI

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#204 MagnumPI
Member since 2002 • 9617 Posts

Woman stop ovulating and men stop masturbating Your killins the babies. By the age of 20 you'll have killed millions of teh babies. You-all nothing but a bunch of bay killers with your baby genocide.

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xscrapzx

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#205 xscrapzx
Member since 2007 • 6636 Posts
[QUOTE="eggdog1234"][QUOTE="Chutebox"][QUOTE="xscrapzx"]

Its amazing that people still have this discussion. A lot of you guys to have agree to disagree because all in all thats what it has to come down too. I do believe though that if a women decides to do this it should be up to her and no one else, especially not up for the court of public opinion. I don't believe it is anybodies right to tell what a women can and can't do with her body. I don't believe it should be used for an option of birth control, but should be an available option.

Theokhoth

When a woman is pregnant, it is not just her body.

People stress the rights of a woman but don't care for the rights of the baby growing inside them.

You don't have rights until you have a driver license.

I guess I won't go to jail for killing my neighbor's brat, then.

The difference is, is that brat neighbor of yours can communicate, can tell you when things hurt, has feeling, has emotion, something defines a human being. I have yet to see a damn fetus pop up and say "Don't you kill me I will sue you!" I mean come on really, some of the comparisons that you people are bringing up in here is like really streching it.

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Funky_Llama

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#206 Funky_Llama
Member since 2006 • 18428 Posts
[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

I'm aware it's a far step forward, but both sperm and zygote have the potential to become human life, so my point still stands.

Theokhoth

A sperm DOES NOT have the potential to become a human! Don't you get it? When a sperm mixes with an egg it ceases to be a sperm! A sperm lives its life and dies in the testicles; nothing more, nothing less, UNLESS it mixes with an egg, in which case the sperm/egg become a human embryo, and thus is no longer a sperm, and thus sperm has no potential to be a human, thus your argument is invalid.

But the original cluster of cells whose existence you're so determined to safeguard become human to the same extent that the sperm become human. It's not like embryonic cells remain through life.

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Chutebox

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#207 Chutebox
Member since 2007 • 51578 Posts
[QUOTE="Chutebox"][QUOTE="xscrapzx"]

Its amazing that people still have this discussion. A lot of you guys to have agree to disagree because all in all thats what it has to come down too. I do believe though that if a women decides to do this it should be up to her and no one else, especially not up for the court of public opinion. I don't believe it is anybodies right to tell what a women can and can't do with her body. I don't believe it should be used for an option of birth control, but should be an available option.

xscrapzx

When a woman is pregnant, it is not just her body.

People stress the rights of a woman but don't care for the rights of the baby growing inside them.

Ok until a fetus can talk through an ultrasound and express its feelings for life, I think that point is mute.

That's a pretty sad outlook.

If it suits you I guess.

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Theokhoth

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#208 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts

:lol: Unless you are willing to claim that looking different and being fundamentally different are exactly the same thing, that is not semantics. Fail, yet again. :lol:

Actually, that wasn't what I was saying at all. But you just have to go by the most literal definition possible. . . .


Try actually counterarguing instead of boasting. ;)

The burden of proof rests on BOTH SIDES. In an official debate, the one who opens the debate goes first and has to hold his burden of proof. But when he's done, his opponent then has to hold it. It's not a "you have to prove everything while I sit back and deny it" situation like you apparently think it is.

This isn't about the debate in general, it's about your claim that foetuses mustbe considered human lives with the right to life.

Um, this is a debate. :| You are in it.


...Why? :|

Explain how it's irrelevant, then.

Because the potential to become a baby doesn't mean that foetuses have the right to life.

And why not?

:roll: What's your point? Everyone considers some things to be less than human. Plants, for example. We all draw the line somewhere.

:| Did you even read my post? Particularly this part: If it has the genes of a human, the potential to be a human, and is a member of the human species. Do plants fall into that category?

I wasn't even responding to that bit, and I already disproved rather pathetic genes argument.

No you didn't. You just went "well my cells aren't human, so your wrong!" which isn't anything more than a red herring.

3. Are you aware that this would mean that every individual cell in my body would have individual right to life? Every human cell has the genetic information of the human it belongs to.

:roll: None of your cells will grow off of you and become a human, unlike the embryo. Therefore, your cells are not the same thing.

I never said they were the same thing, and whether they are is irrelevant. What's relevant is whether the same principle applies, which it does.

:| Do you not see your argument here? "Okay, it applies in this case, but it doesn't in this absolutely irrelevant and different case, therefore it doesn't apply at all." That is wrong. It would apply if your cells had the potential to become a human, but since they don't, the principle does not apply to this case. It applies to embryos.

:roll: It's called reductio ad absurdum...
Why would it only apply in that case?

From Wikipedia: Reductio ad absurdum (Latin for "reduction to the absurd"), also known as an apagogical argument, reductio ad impossibile, or proof by contradiction, is a type of logical argument where one assumes a claim for the sake of argument and derives an absurd or ridiculous outcome, and then concludes that the original claim must have been wrong as it led to an absurd result.

You are the one committing that fallacy, not me.

Can you think of another case where an organism has the potential to become a human? If you can, then the principle will apply to that case as well.

I don't see what you're trying to say. You can't reasonably deny that a sperm cell can't become human, if that's what you're doing (there's my insurance against accusations of a straw man).

You've been denying for about three pages now.:|

Urk. I don't know why I wrote that. I intended to say that you can't reasonably deny that a sperm cell can become human.

Look back at the dozens of replies by me and others to see.

Funky_Llama
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SuperVegeta518

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#209 SuperVegeta518
Member since 2005 • 5960 Posts
[QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="eggdog1234"][QUOTE="Chutebox"][QUOTE="xscrapzx"]

Its amazing that people still have this discussion. A lot of you guys to have agree to disagree because all in all thats what it has to come down too. I do believe though that if a women decides to do this it should be up to her and no one else, especially not up for the court of public opinion. I don't believe it is anybodies right to tell what a women can and can't do with her body. I don't believe it should be used for an option of birth control, but should be an available option.

xscrapzx

When a woman is pregnant, it is not just her body.

People stress the rights of a woman but don't care for the rights of the baby growing inside them.

You don't have rights until you have a driver license.

I guess I won't go to jail for killing my neighbor's brat, then.

The difference is, is that brat neighbor of yours can communicate, can tell you when things hurt, has feeling, has emotion, something defines a human being. I have yet to see a damn fetus pop up and say "Don't you kill me I will sue you!" I mean come on really, some of the comparisons that you people are bringing up in here is like really streching it.

There are people that can not communicate. That does not make it okay to kill them.
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Chutebox

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#210 Chutebox
Member since 2007 • 51578 Posts
[QUOTE="Chutebox"][QUOTE="xscrapzx"]

Its amazing that people still have this discussion. A lot of you guys to have agree to disagree because all in all thats what it has to come down too. I do believe though that if a women decides to do this it should be up to her and no one else, especially not up for the court of public opinion. I don't believe it is anybodies right to tell what a women can and can't do with her body. I don't believe it should be used for an option of birth control, but should be an available option.

eggdog1234

When a woman is pregnant, it is not just her body.

People stress the rights of a woman but don't care for the rights of the baby growing inside them.

You don't have rights until you have a driver license.

Hope you're not serious lol.

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Funky_Llama

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#211 Funky_Llama
Member since 2006 • 18428 Posts
[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="xscrapzx"][QUOTE="SuperVegeta518"][QUOTE="tofu-lion91"][QUOTE="SuperVegeta518"][QUOTE="tofu-lion91"]

[QUOTE="SuperVegeta518"]Pretty much your opinion is that you're okay with murder if that person causes an inconvenience.xscrapzx

I wouldn't exactly call a fetus a person. And I wouldn't abort after a certain amount of weeks.

How is a fetus not a human being?

Because it's a fetus :| It doesn't breathe or think. It isn't concious. Anyways I'm not saying killing babies is great or even right, I just stand for choice that's all.

There are people that can't breathe, and a fetus can move so how do you know that it can't thnk? How do you know that it isn't in some way conscience. No one can even be sure that they themselves or the world around them actually exists. Yet that doesn't make it right to kill another person.

I just took a look around and notice that I live on a planet and there are trees that I can tough, flowers I can smell.

How do you know that's not illusion?

Well if you want to go to that extent than thats fine, but until proven otherwise everything that is around me exsists. I mean do we really have to go the Matrix theory to prove your point? :roll:

However low the chance, it's still possible that reality is an illusion.

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Theokhoth

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#212 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts
[QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

I'm aware it's a far step forward, but both sperm and zygote have the potential to become human life, so my point still stands.

Funky_Llama

A sperm DOES NOT have the potential to become a human! Don't you get it? When a sperm mixes with an egg it ceases to be a sperm! A sperm lives its life and dies in the testicles; nothing more, nothing less, UNLESS it mixes with an egg, in which case the sperm/egg become a human embryo, and thus is no longer a sperm, and thus sperm has no potential to be a human, thus your argument is invalid.

But the original cluster of cells whose existence you're so determined to safeguard become human to the same extent that the sperm become human. It's not like embryonic cells remain through life.

No, it doesn't. An embryo develops over time. Embryonic cells don't remain throughout your life; they change into adult cells.

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Stumpt25

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#213 Stumpt25
Member since 2006 • 1482 Posts
[QUOTE="Stumpt25"]

Ugh, i hate ignorance. If you are going to debate me, fine, but don't use lame ass tactics in order to do so.

The_Ish

Of course, since you don't agree with it, it's ignorant. :lol:

1. When a woman get's raped. She is entering sexual intercourse TOTALLY unvolentarily. If she doesn't use protection in consentual sex, then it's totally her fault if she gets pregnant. I didn't contradict myself.

Stumpt25

And there it is. You likened abortion to murdering a child. If it is, then it's too bad for the woman, she has to go through with child birth because a child's life is more important than the emotional well-being of a woman. It's called consistency, and you didn't have it. ;)

2. the "states" isn't the whole world. In the UK and many other european countries, 24 weeks is right.

Stumpt25

Then specify, because some people don't care about the abortion policies of other nations.

3. How can YOU decide that they won't appreciate the simple things in life?

Stumpt25

Simple, when it does not have a brain that can comprehend it. Pleasure isn't magical, it's chemical.

Furthermore, where the heck do you draw the line.

Stumpt25

Also simple. When the brain starts developing, which is about a month in. The brain is the only thing that gives us any capability to cherish things in the first place. The woman has had plenty of time to think about it by then.

"hmmm his arm hasn't fully developed but the rest of his body is normal...". It's so unfair, and it totally demeans the people who ARE disabled but still lead fulfilling lives.

Stumpt25

I don't understand what this has to do with my post.

4. This is a double edged sword. Where do YOU get your sources. Regardless whether either of us are right, MANY WOMEN die each year through unsafe abortion.

Stumpt25

No, it isn't. You pulled a BS statistic straight out of your ass, because no one knows a real figure. It might have been an educated guess, but you don't know because there is no accurate survey because it deals with something extremely illegal. Besides, the legality of abortion is not what you are trying to argue against, you're trying to argue against abortion itself. Bringing up whats illegal and what isn't doesn't help you or your argument, and since you stated that so many women die from illegal abortions each year, then it makes sense to make abortions cheaper or more accessible, since one dead is better than two dead.

5. Your last comment is a total contradiction (which is ironic because you accused me of contradictory). "Go do something else. but that guy who made the statement is awesome."

Stumpt25

It's called sarcasm. ;)

1. No, it's not because i disagree with you, it's because you're putting words into my mouth. You just did it again. Your style of debate is completely different and quite frankly disrespectful. You have to empower your arguement by insulting me. Good job.

2. It's a point of responsibility. I'm not being inconsistent. If a woman is not raped, she has total control of her sex life, and moreover, total control of whether she gets pregnant. This means, that if she does indeed concieve, she has an obligation for a) looking after it, b) seeing that it has as good a life as possible (this could be through settting it up for adoption). You CANNOT expect a responsible woman to accept responsibility for something she has no control over.

3. I don't need to specify. Ignorant people don't care what's in the outside world.

4. Notice how i said "WILL" in this sentence. Meaning, that once they are BORN, and are able to experience the world through their 5 senses (or maybe 4 or 3, who knows). It's not fair for me to decide that "Just because the child will be born blind" or "unable to walk" that it won't have a happy or fulfilling life.

5. You've taken 2 points totally out of context. When i said "Where do you draw the line?" i meant in regards to "This child has health issues, therefore, it should be aborted". Could you abort only children who couldn't walk or talk, or could people just abort them because they are going to be diabetic. Justification of abortion through appealing to the arguement of "the baby could be very ill" is incredibly weak.

6. I didn't pull it "out of my ass". It came from Wikipedia (eek... reliable much *cough*). Ok, i tripped on my feet for this one. But regardless, I know as a fact that countless women DO die every year from unsafe abortions. The point still stands. It's not just illegal abortions. In many clinics around the world, the woman can die of trauma, and also in hospitals with lower hygene/facility standards.

7. Wahay, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit

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xscrapzx

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#214 xscrapzx
Member since 2007 • 6636 Posts
[QUOTE="xscrapzx"][QUOTE="Chutebox"][QUOTE="xscrapzx"]

Its amazing that people still have this discussion. A lot of you guys to have agree to disagree because all in all thats what it has to come down too. I do believe though that if a women decides to do this it should be up to her and no one else, especially not up for the court of public opinion. I don't believe it is anybodies right to tell what a women can and can't do with her body. I don't believe it should be used for an option of birth control, but should be an available option.

Chutebox

When a woman is pregnant, it is not just her body.

People stress the rights of a woman but don't care for the rights of the baby growing inside them.

Ok until a fetus can talk through an ultrasound and express its feelings for life, I think that point is mute.

That's a pretty sad outlook.

If it suits you I guess.

Well I hate to break it to you but thats why we have rights, because we can express emotion, we can think and communicated logically. I mean if we go by what you are saying than that means a cat or a dog can bring you to court or a cow has a right to a jury before being slaughtered for its meat. Its not a sad outlook its reality its the facts of life.

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xscrapzx

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#215 xscrapzx
Member since 2007 • 6636 Posts

However low the chance, it's still possible that reality is an illusion.

Funky_Llama

Ok so what does that have to do with the fact that a fetus is not actually a living breathing human being.

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Theokhoth

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#216 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts

The difference is, is that brat neighbor of yours can communicate, can tell you when things hurt, has feeling, has emotion, something defines a human being. I have yet to see a damn fetus pop up and say "Don't you kill me I will sue you!" I mean come on really, some of the comparisons that you people are bringing up in here is like really streching it.

xscrapzx

Um, fetuses have been reported to react to pain, have been reported to try to avoid abortion tools, hell, fetuses have even reached out and touched the doctors' hands during abortions and c-sections!

On the other hand, children younger than twelve months can't do what you say either, minus react to pain (which fetuses can also do) so unless you support the killing of born humans, you invoke a double standard.
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Funky_Llama

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#217 Funky_Llama
Member since 2006 • 18428 Posts
[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

:lol: Unless you are willing to claim that looking different and being fundamentally different are exactly the same thing, that is not semantics. Fail, yet again. :lol:

Actually, that wasn't what I was saying at all. But you just have to go by the most literal definition possible. . . .

Then there is a practical distinction between them, so it's not just semantics.


Try actually counterarguing instead of boasting. ;)

The burden of proof rests on BOTH SIDES. In an official debate, the one who opens the debate goes first and has to hold his burden of proof. But when he's done, his opponent then has to hold it. It's not a "you have to prove everything while I sit back and deny it" situation like you apparently think it is.

This isn't about the debate in general, it's about your claim that foetuses mustbe considered human lives with the right to life.

Um, this is a debate. :| You are in it.

Yes, and I was referring to your claim that foetuses must be considered human lives with the right to life. What's your point, assuming you actually have one?


...Why? :|

Explain how it's irrelevant, then.

Because the potential to become a baby doesn't mean that foetuses have the right to life.

And why not?

:roll: What's your point? Everyone considers some things to be less than human. Plants, for example. We all draw the line somewhere.

:| Did you even read my post? Particularly this part: If it has the genes of a human, the potential to be a human, and is a member of the human species. Do plants fall into that category?

I wasn't even responding to that bit, and I already disproved rather pathetic genes argument.

No you didn't. You just went "well my cells aren't human, so your wrong!" which isn't anything more than a red herring.

Pfft. For a start, I wouldn't make such a basis grammatical error. And why, exactly, is it a red herring?

3. Are you aware that this would mean that every individual cell in my body would have individual right to life? Every human cell has the genetic information of the human it belongs to.

:roll: None of your cells will grow off of you and become a human, unlike the embryo. Therefore, your cells are not the same thing.

I never said they were the same thing, and whether they are is irrelevant. What's relevant is whether the same principle applies, which it does.

:| Do you not see your argument here? "Okay, it applies in this case, but it doesn't in this absolutely irrelevant and different case, therefore it doesn't apply at all." That is wrong. It would apply if your cells had the potential to become a human, but since they don't, the principle does not apply to this case. It applies to embryos.

:roll: It's called reductio ad absurdum...
Why would it only apply in that case?

From Wikipedia: Reductio ad absurdum (Latin for "reduction to the absurd"), also known as an apagogical argument, reductio ad impossibile, or proof by contradiction, is a type of logical argument where one assumes a claim for the sake of argument and derives an absurd or ridiculous outcome, and then concludes that the original claim must have been wrong as it led to an absurd result.

You are the one committing that fallacy, not me.

Can you think of another case where an organism has the potential to become a human? If you can, then the principle will apply to that case as well.

You do realise that reductio ad absurdum isn't a logical fallacy? Perhaps you were thrown by the shiny latin name. It's not fallacious, it's just a type of argument. Fail.

I don't see what you're trying to say. You can't reasonably deny that a sperm cell can't become human, if that's what you're doing (there's my insurance against accusations of a straw man).

You've been denying for about three pages now.:|

Urk. I don't know why I wrote that. I intended to say that you can't reasonably deny that a sperm cell can become human.

Look back at the dozens of replies by me and others to see.

None of them convincing. Especially not yours.

Theokhoth

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Funky_Llama

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#218 Funky_Llama
Member since 2006 • 18428 Posts
[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

However low the chance, it's still possible that reality is an illusion.

xscrapzx

Ok so what does that have to do with the fact that a fetus is not actually a living breathing human being.

I don't have a clue. :P

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Stumpt25

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#219 Stumpt25
Member since 2006 • 1482 Posts
[QUOTE="Stumpt25"]

If you don't use protection, i'm sorry, i don't care about your "rights".

peeviness

I really don't care about when babies are alive or when they are dead

Whether you are for abortion or against it...... I REALLY think you ought to review your statement.

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#220 CptJSparrow
Member since 2007 • 10898 Posts
Now you guys just need yellow and violet and you have the full spectrum.
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SuperVegeta518

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#221 SuperVegeta518
Member since 2005 • 5960 Posts
[QUOTE="Chutebox"][QUOTE="xscrapzx"][QUOTE="Chutebox"][QUOTE="xscrapzx"]

Its amazing that people still have this discussion. A lot of you guys to have agree to disagree because all in all thats what it has to come down too. I do believe though that if a women decides to do this it should be up to her and no one else, especially not up for the court of public opinion. I don't believe it is anybodies right to tell what a women can and can't do with her body. I don't believe it should be used for an option of birth control, but should be an available option.

xscrapzx

When a woman is pregnant, it is not just her body.

People stress the rights of a woman but don't care for the rights of the baby growing inside them.

Ok until a fetus can talk through an ultrasound and express its feelings for life, I think that point is mute.

That's a pretty sad outlook.

If it suits you I guess.

Well I hate to break it to you but thats why we have rights, because we can express emotion, we can think and communicated logically. I mean if we go by what you are saying than that means a cat or a dog can bring you to court or a cow has a right to a jury before being slaughtered for its meat. Its not a sad outlook its reality its the facts of life.

Any way that you put it a cow a dog a sheep a spider a bird, they are all not human! Only a human being is a human being no matter what stage of life it is in, no matter if it is born, and regardless of what abilities it may or may not have. You're belief that it is ok to strip someone of the right to life is sickening and shows why this world's values are quickly decaying.
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Stumpt25

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#222 Stumpt25
Member since 2006 • 1482 Posts

Woman stop ovulating and men stop masturbating Your killins the babies. By the age of 20 you'll have killed millions of teh babies. You-all nothing but a bunch of bay killers with your baby genocide.

MagnumPI

that's not true because the Sperm and the egg are just cells... not living beings..... Regardless, millions of sperm die during conception, it's only 1 or 2 that survive... It's totally natural.....

You can't exactly ejaculate a baby naturally can you?

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Funky_Llama

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#223 Funky_Llama
Member since 2006 • 18428 Posts

Now you guys just need yellow and violet and you have the full spectrum. CptJSparrow

I'll get right on it. :P

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#224 xscrapzx
Member since 2007 • 6636 Posts
[QUOTE="xscrapzx"]

The difference is, is that brat neighbor of yours can communicate, can tell you when things hurt, has feeling, has emotion, something defines a human being. I have yet to see a damn fetus pop up and say "Don't you kill me I will sue you!" I mean come on really, some of the comparisons that you people are bringing up in here is like really streching it.

Theokhoth

Um, fetuses have been reported to react to pain, have been reported to try to avoid abortion tools, hell, fetuses have even reached out and touched the doctors' hands during abortions and c-sections!

On the other hand, children younger than twelve months can't do what you say either, minus react to pain (which fetuses can also do) so unless you support the killing of born humans, you invoke a double standard.

Ok I'm really done with conversation after reading what you just wrote, because for one I'm not talking about abortions that get up to the point where the baby can be born, if someone is not smart enough to know if they should get an abortion before the things has a full out body than clearly they just are smart period. C-sections are done for when the baby's life is in danger hence that is a different form of pregancy not abortion.

[QUOTE="xscrapzx"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

However low the chance, it's still possible that reality is an illusion.

Funky_Llama

Ok so what does that have to do with the fact that a fetus is not actually a living breathing human being.

I don't have a clue. :P

It would be an interesting topic though, please don't I was dogging you on it. I definately have thought of that before. :P

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MagnumPI

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#225 MagnumPI
Member since 2002 • 9617 Posts
Holy bejesus people take abortion seriously.
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Funky_Llama

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#226 Funky_Llama
Member since 2006 • 18428 Posts

It's totally naturalStumpt25

That's the naturalistic fallacy. Fail.

You can't exactly ejaculate a baby naturally can you? Stumpt25

:?

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Stumpt25

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#227 Stumpt25
Member since 2006 • 1482 Posts

Holy bejesus people take abortion seriously. MagnumPI

Yeh! comon people! It's not like killing living human organisms is a big deal? Just chill ok?

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Theokhoth

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#228 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts

Yes, and I was referring to your claim that foetuses must be considered human lives with the right to life. What's your point, assuming you actually have one?

I've been telling you and others throughout this whole entire topic what my point is.




Pfft. For a start, I wouldn't make such a basis grammatical error.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:I hope that was another one of your irony jokes!

And why, exactly, is it a red herring?

Because it addresses an irrelevant point. It is irrelevant because cells do not grow into human, They do not have the potential. You just can't seem to wrap around that simple fact.

3. Are you aware that this would mean that every individual cell in my body would have individual right to life? Every human cell has the genetic information of the human it belongs to.

:roll: None of your cells will grow off of you and become a human, unlike the embryo. Therefore, your cells are not the same thing.

I never said they were the same thing, and whether they are is irrelevant. What's relevant is whether the same principle applies, which it does.

:| Do you not see your argument here? "Okay, it applies in this case, but it doesn't in this absolutely irrelevant and different case, therefore it doesn't apply at all." That is wrong. It would apply if your cells had the potential to become a human, but since they don't, the principle does not apply to this case. It applies to embryos.


You do realise that reductio ad absurdum isn't a logical fallacy? Perhaps you were thrown by the shiny latin name. It's not fallacious, it's just a type of argument. Fail.

Not a fallacy, huh?

In general it's not a fallacy, but in the way you are applying it, it is. Fail.


None of them convincing. Especially not yours.

"None of them convince me." Kent Hovind reasoning isn't good arguing.

Funky_Llama
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Stumpt25

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#229 Stumpt25
Member since 2006 • 1482 Posts

[QUOTE="Stumpt25"] It's totally naturalFunky_Llama

That's the naturalistic fallacy. Fail.

You can't exactly ejaculate a baby naturally can you? Stumpt25

:?

.....YOU CAN EJACULATE A BABY?

my perspective on life is changed forever

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Stumpt25

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#230 Stumpt25
Member since 2006 • 1482 Posts
[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

Yes, and I was referring to your claim that foetuses must be considered human lives with the right to life. What's your point, assuming you actually have one?

I've been telling you and others throughout this whole entire topic what my point is.




Pfft. For a start, I wouldn't make such a basis grammatical error.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:I hope that was another one of your irony jokes!

And why, exactly, is it a red herring?

Because it addresses an irrelevant point. It is irrelevant because cells do not grow into human, They do not have the potential. You just can't seem to wrap around that simple fact.

3. Are you aware that this would mean that every individual cell in my body would have individual right to life? Every human cell has the genetic information of the human it belongs to.

:roll: None of your cells will grow off of you and become a human, unlike the embryo. Therefore, your cells are not the same thing.

I never said they were the same thing, and whether they are is irrelevant. What's relevant is whether the same principle applies, which it does.

:| Do you not see your argument here? "Okay, it applies in this case, but it doesn't in this absolutely irrelevant and different case, therefore it doesn't apply at all." That is wrong. It would apply if your cells had the potential to become a human, but since they don't, the principle does not apply to this case. It applies to embryos.


You do realise that reductio ad absurdum isn't a logical fallacy? Perhaps you were thrown by the shiny latin name. It's not fallacious, it's just a type of argument. Fail.

Not a fallacy, huh?

In general it's not a fallacy, but in the way you are applying it, it is. Fail.


None of them convincing. Especially not yours.

"None of them convince me." Kent Hovind reasoning isn't good arguing.

Theokhoth

DAH THE COLOURS CONFUSE ME!

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Chutebox

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#231 Chutebox
Member since 2007 • 51578 Posts

Well I hate to break it to you but thats why we have rights, because we can express emotion, we can think and communicated logically. I mean if we go by what you are saying than that means a cat or a dog can bring you to court or a cow has a right to a jury before being slaughtered for its meat. Its not a sad outlook its reality its the facts of life.

xscrapzx

Again, stressing rights except for those that can't voice their own.

So mentally handicapped people not able to voice their opinion mean nothing and should be killed if the parent wants it.

Good job comparing humans to dogs and cows btw.

Just so you know, I'm not trying to change your opinion, I can't. Just having a conversation so I hope it doesn't get personal.

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Theokhoth

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#232 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts

Ok I'm really done with conversation after reading what you just wrote.xscrapzx

Wonderful refutation.

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Funky_Llama

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#233 Funky_Llama
Member since 2006 • 18428 Posts

Only a human being is a human being no matter what stage of life it is in, no matter if it is born, and regardless of what abilities it may or may not have.SuperVegeta518

Pfft. I doubt that directly after fertilisation, what you have is a human being.

You're belief that it is ok to strip someone of the right to life is sickening and shows why this world's values are quickly decaying. SuperVegeta518

They never had it in the first place. And check your grammar. ;)

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xscrapzx

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#234 xscrapzx
Member since 2007 • 6636 Posts
My thoughts on abortion are very simple. I think it should be allowed, but not as an act of birth control. I believe there should be a time limit on when you can actually have one, I feel when it gets to the point where you can tell its a baby it should not be done, because at that point you really have no brain at all because if you cant decide on something in a month then you clearly can't think period. The bottom line is, is that it is a privacy issue with that womens body end of story and it should stay that way. Sure people can agree or not agree on it because people have there right to their own opinion, but they should not have a voice whether it should be legal or not. Thats where I end this god awful topic that just goes in circles.
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Stumpt25

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#235 Stumpt25
Member since 2006 • 1482 Posts
[QUOTE="xscrapzx"]

Ok I'm really done with conversation after reading what you just wrote.Theokhoth

Wonderful refutation.

I lol'd real hard at that one... no idea why

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Theokhoth

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#236 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts
They never had it in the first place. And check your grammar. ;)

Funky_Llama

Just like people never had the right to an abortion in the first place.:roll:

I'm done.

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Theokhoth

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#237 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts

My thoughts on abortion are very simple. I think it should be allowed, but not as an act of birth control. xscrapzx

Then why the hell were we arguing in the first place?:| I wouldn't oppose an abortion if it was meant to save the life of the mother (and all other methods were exhausted).

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#238 PannicAtack
Member since 2006 • 21040 Posts

The dialogue on abortion is just nauseating. Strip away all the holier-than-thou bull**** and the red herring of 'personal rights,' and all you have is personal belief:

"Yes it is"

"No it isn't"

"Yes it is"

"No it isn't"

"Yes it is"

"No it isn't"

>_>

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#239 xscrapzx
Member since 2007 • 6636 Posts
[QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="xscrapzx"]

Ok I'm really done with conversation after reading what you just wrote.Stumpt25

Wonderful refutation.

I lol'd real hard at that one... no idea why

Just the things he said are comical thats all.

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The-619-Rey

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#240 The-619-Rey
Member since 2008 • 66 Posts
Im against it fully..unless theres like a serious consiquence for getting pregnant in the first place
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#241 Funky_Llama
Member since 2006 • 18428 Posts
[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

Yes, and I was referring to your claim that foetuses must be considered human lives with the right to life. What's your point, assuming you actually have one?

I've been telling you and others throughout this whole entire topic what my point is.

I'm referring to this specific point. What is it?




Pfft. For a start, I wouldn't make such a basis grammatical error.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:I hope that was another one of your irony jokes!

'twas indeed :D. Whenever I criticise someone's grammar I proof-read the particular sentenceuntil my eyes bleed. :P

And why, exactly, is it a red herring?

Because it addresses an irrelevant point. It is irrelevant because cells do not grow into human, They do not have the potential. You just can't seem to wrap around that simple fact.

I know they don't. That's irrelevant. All you've done is highlighted a difference, which is pointless given that I never said that they are exactly the same. As long as the principle applies, which it does despite this difference, my point still stands.

3. Are you aware that this would mean that every individual cell in my body would have individual right to life? Every human cell has the genetic information of the human it belongs to.

:roll: None of your cells will grow off of you and become a human, unlike the embryo. Therefore, your cells are not the same thing.

I never said they were the same thing, and whether they are is irrelevant. What's relevant is whether the same principle applies, which it does.

:| Do you not see your argument here? "Okay, it applies in this case, but it doesn't in this absolutely irrelevant and different case, therefore it doesn't apply at all." That is wrong. It would apply if your cells had the potential to become a human, but since they don't, the principle does not apply to this case. It applies to embryos.


You do realise that reductio ad absurdum isn't a logical fallacy? Perhaps you were thrown by the shiny latin name. It's not fallacious, it's just a type of argument. Fail.

Not a fallacy, huh?

In general it's not a fallacy, but in the way you are applying it, it is. Fail.

You do realise that that link says: "This is in general a reasonable and non-fallacious way to argue". Fail.


None of them convincing. Especially not yours.

"None of them convince me." Kent Hovind reasoning isn't good arguing.

Pfft. OK... they are all wrong.

Theokhoth

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Stumpt25

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#242 Stumpt25
Member since 2006 • 1482 Posts

The dialogue on abortion is just nauseating. Strip away all the holier-than-thou bull**** and the red herring of 'personal rights,' and all you have is personal belief:

"Yes it is"

"No it isn't"

"Yes it is"

"No it isn't"

"Yes it is"

"No it isn't"

>_>

PannicAtack

Not true. I used to totally buy into the whole liberal "abortions are great" and "death penalty for violent, murdering raping criminals is bad".

My perspective has totally changed from other people's arguements

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SuperVegeta518

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#243 SuperVegeta518
Member since 2005 • 5960 Posts

[QUOTE="SuperVegeta518"] Only a human being is a human being no matter what stage of life it is in, no matter if it is born, and regardless of what abilities it may or may not have.Funky_Llama

Pfft. I doubt that directly after fertilisation, what you have is a human being.

You're belief that it is ok to strip someone of the right to life is sickening and shows why this world's values are quickly decaying. SuperVegeta518

They never had it in the first place. And check your grammar. ;)

I never realized that this was about grammar.

How can you prove that after fertilization what you have is not human. I'm not saying that I can prove that it is but why would someone be willing to take the chance of taking someones life

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Chutebox

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#244 Chutebox
Member since 2007 • 51578 Posts

Few facts for you people, by day 21 the baby's heart starts to beat in a regular fashion and they often have a blood type different than the mother. Day 21...

At 6 weeks they can detect brain waves coming from the babies.

After day 1, or fertilization, absolutely nothing is added to the baby but oxygen, nutrition, and time.

9-12 weeks the baby has unique fingerprints that are evident and never change.

That is all just early pregnancy. No, not human at all.

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#245 PannicAtack
Member since 2006 • 21040 Posts

Not true. I used to totally buy into the whole liberal "abortions are great" and "death penalty for violent, murdering raping criminals is bad".

My perspective has totally changed from other people's arguements

Stumpt25

Get out of this thread. Now.

That's a strawman. Nobody has ever said that. It's a disgusting lie that YOU have formulated.

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Funky_Llama

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#246 Funky_Llama
Member since 2006 • 18428 Posts
[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

[QUOTE="Stumpt25"] It's totally naturalStumpt25

That's the naturalistic fallacy. Fail.

You can't exactly ejaculate a baby naturally can you? Stumpt25

:?

.....YOU CAN EJACULATE A BABY?

my perspective on life is changed forever

I never said you could. The levels of failure you exude are bordering on the intoxicating.

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#247 eloyc
Member since 2003 • 1124 Posts

Based on your logic any food has the potential to become a human. You're basically saying that all who are pro-life are anti eating, which we aren't.SuperVegeta518

Whaaat?! Oh, come on. You should read my posts properly.

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#248 Stumpt25
Member since 2006 • 1482 Posts

Few facts for you people, by day 21 the baby's heart starts to beat in a regular fashion and they often have a blood type different than the mother. Day 21...

At 6 weeks they can detect brain waves coming from the babies.

After day 1, or fertilization, absolutely nothing is added to the baby but oxygen, nutrition, and time.

9-12 weeks the baby has unique fingerprints that are evident and never change.

That is all just early pregnancy. No, not human at all.

Chutebox

Facts. Nothing like em :)

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#249 Funky_Llama
Member since 2006 • 18428 Posts

Few facts for you people, by day 21 the baby's heart starts to beat in a regular fashion and they often have a blood type different than the mother. Day 21...

At 6 weeks they can detect brain waves coming from the babies.

After day 1, or fertilization, absolutely nothing is added to the baby but oxygen, nutrition, and time.

9-12 weeks the baby has unique fingerprints that are evident and never change.

That is all just early pregnancy. No, not human at all.

Chutebox

None of the things you list here logically lead to abortion being wrong.

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Stumpt25

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#250 Stumpt25
Member since 2006 • 1482 Posts
[QUOTE="Stumpt25"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

[QUOTE="Stumpt25"] It's totally naturalFunky_Llama

That's the naturalistic fallacy. Fail.

You can't exactly ejaculate a baby naturally can you? Stumpt25

:?

.....YOU CAN EJACULATE A BABY?

my perspective on life is changed forever

I never said you could. The levels of failure you exude are bordering on the intoxicating.

It's a joke man... obviously my humour levels are phailing...