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Serraph105

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#301 Serraph105
Member since 2007 • 36092 Posts

[QUOTE="spinecaton"]I'm adopted, I'm pro-choice. What someone does with their body does not effect me at all so why should I care? If my girlfriend were to accidentally get pregnant and she wanted to get an abortion I would stand behind her, because it is her choice what she wants to do with her body. We are not financially stable enough to support a kid and I don't think I could go through all the trouble of having my girlfriend pregnant for 9 months, paying for hospital bills, having her go through birth, just to give the baby away to an orphanage. We have talked about this before because one time the condom broke and it was completely out of our hands as to what would happen next. She decided to get Plan-B pill and all was well.[/QUOTE

its interesting my friend is adopted and he hates it when anyone even mentions abortion he once called me a hypocrite for going to church and being pro choice even though i have never said im pro life to anybody

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NecroKvltMuffin

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#302 NecroKvltMuffin
Member since 2007 • 9334 Posts

Are feti cognizant?

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spinecaton

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#303 spinecaton
Member since 2003 • 8986 Posts

[QUOTE="spinecaton"]I'm adopted, I'm pro-choice. What someone does with their body does not effect me at all so why should I care? If my girlfriend were to accidentally get pregnant and she wanted to get an abortion I would stand behind her, because it is her choice what she wants to do with her body. We are not financially stable enough to support a kid and I don't think I could go through all the trouble of having my girlfriend pregnant for 9 months, paying for hospital bills, having her go through birth, just to give the baby away to an orphanage. We have talked about this before because one time the condom broke and it was completely out of our hands as to what would happen next. She decided to get Plan-B pill and all was well.Serraph105

its interesting my friend is adopted and he hates it when anyone even mentions abortion he once called me a hypocrite for going to church and being pro choice even though i have never said im pro life to anybody

Yeah, I think I am a rare breed. I generally just don't care about issues like this... too troublesome and gets you no where. Just saw that someone said they were adopted and were pro-life so my comment was in rebuttle to theirs.

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Bourbons3

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#305 Bourbons3
Member since 2003 • 24238 Posts
I think women should have the right to have an abortion. I agree that in some cases, it isn't the best option. But it should be an option nonetheless.
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foxhound_fox

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#306 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts
Abortion is murder... the only time it is justifiable is when the woman's life is in danger... if you don't want to accept responsibility for a child then keep your legs closed... blah blah blah... same old thread, same old discussion. Abortion is wrong, period.
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KOTORkicker

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#307 KOTORkicker
Member since 2007 • 4595 Posts

If you don't use protection, i'm sorry, i don't care about your "rights". The only time when i think abortion is good is when a woman is raped. She couldn't help getting pregnant and she has to live with the constant reminder of what happened to her.

Think about it this way. A baby can be aborted at 24 weeks old. BABIES CAN BE BORN AND SURVIVE AT 24 WEEKS. Let's say a woman, prematurely gives birth to a baby at 24 weeks, and then murders it on the same day. That woman would be ARRESTED. It makes no difference, however, if she coulda just killed it by aborting it.

Then people commonly approach my views with the whole: "What if the baby is deformed, or is going to be born very ill?". Abortion isn't the answer though! You can't just say "that baby is DEFINATELY not going to enjoy life". How do you know? you aren't giving it a chance. Doesn't it deserve to do all the little things that we take for granted, like seeing the colours of the sky, or listening to it's favourite song, or falling in love or thinking about something?

Let me ask YOU something. Do you know how many women die through unsafe abortions each year? 68,000. That's a disgrace. Not only might the baby die, but the women will too.

Michael Jay Tucker once said:

"If the anti-abortion movement took a tenth of the energy they put into noisy theatrics and devoted it to improving the lives of children who have been born into lives of poverty, violence, and neglect, they could make a world shine."

I would respond to this by saying that if liberals took a tenth of the energy they put into trying to save violent criminals from facing death row, and devoted it to improving the lives of children who have been born into lives of poverty, violence and neglect, they could make the world shine.

What are your thoughts on abortion? do you agree with anything i'm saying?

Stumpt25

I pretty much agree in every sense of the word with your post. Though I do think Abortion is shameful no matter what stage of the pregnancy the would-be-mother is at. Its a disgusting, yet legalised, extinguishment of life.

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ragek1ll589

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#308 ragek1ll589
Member since 2007 • 8650 Posts
It's a touchy subject. I don't think it should be used as a form of birth control, which unfortunately some people are utilizing it for. Certain situations may call for it (rape, pregnancy is compromising the health of the mother).
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mrbojangles25

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#309 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 60738 Posts
[QUOTE="Serraph105"]

[QUOTE="spinecaton"]I'm adopted, I'm pro-choice. What someone does with their body does not effect me at all so why should I care? If my girlfriend were to accidentally get pregnant and she wanted to get an abortion I would stand behind her, because it is her choice what she wants to do with her body. We are not financially stable enough to support a kid and I don't think I could go through all the trouble of having my girlfriend pregnant for 9 months, paying for hospital bills, having her go through birth, just to give the baby away to an orphanage. We have talked about this before because one time the condom broke and it was completely out of our hands as to what would happen next. She decided to get Plan-B pill and all was well.spinecaton

its interesting my friend is adopted and he hates it when anyone even mentions abortion he once called me a hypocrite for going to church and being pro choice even though i have never said im pro life to anybody

Yeah, I think I am a rare breed. I generally just don't care about issues like this... too troublesome and gets you no where. Just saw that someone said they were adopted and were pro-life so my comment was in rebuttle to theirs.

the thing that bugs me is that when you say youre prochoice, people assume youre pro-abortion.

Thats not true. I find abortion a horrible thing, and it should by all means be a last resort after a couple has researched keeping the baby, adoption, and other options.

I just think people should have a choice in the matter. By being prolife you are essentially forcing a human life onto another person, which is a huge responsibility if the pregnancy is unwanted. I dont support suicide, but I acknowledge the fact that there are a lot of people in this world who would be better off if they simply did not exist.

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linkin_guy109

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#310 linkin_guy109
Member since 2005 • 8864 Posts
screw that, im not giving them the chance to ruin my life, its my sperm inside of her, and i have the right to kill it if me and the women both agree on it, once its born thats another story though
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Ice_52

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#311 Ice_52
Member since 2008 • 261 Posts
Comedy break!! Bill Hicks on the subject
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alexmurray

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#312 alexmurray
Member since 2005 • 2665 Posts
the woman should have the choice not us
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tripplebrow

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#313 tripplebrow
Member since 2008 • 159 Posts

we EAT chicken fetuses, so whats so bad about killing a regular fetuse :P

and why exactly do you care about what someone else does with their baby? its theirs, not yours. if you hate it so much, dont do it. simple, right? i think so.

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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#314 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]TC, are you complaining about late abortion or all abortion? It's not clear, and you only really give an argument against late abortion.Stumpt25

I am against both. But there are a lot of people who say "it's not REALLY killing a BABY, cause it's only a bunch of Cells. Quite clearly, this isn't true.

You have shown no proof or evidence that supports this conclusion.. And I personally would not recommend abortion, but I think individual liberties are far more important.. Top that off there have been plenty of life threatening pregnancies, and/or pregnancies due to rape..

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Yuppitt

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#315 Yuppitt
Member since 2008 • 437 Posts

I'm pro-choice. They should be allowed to have one regardless of their situation. We already have population problems in several areas, why add more people to that problem?

I'm not trying to sound rude, but I don't know how else to phrase it: If you think it's killing someone, then you don't have to do it. You shouldn't care about people who get it, because you aren't them and it's not your choice or your buisness.

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SylentButDeadly

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#316 SylentButDeadly
Member since 2008 • 437 Posts

[QUOTE="lettuceman44"]I agree with your post.ShadowofTulkas

I'll second that.

I'll third that.

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SylentButDeadly

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#317 SylentButDeadly
Member since 2008 • 437 Posts

the woman should have the choice not usalexmurray

They alreeady made the choice when they had sex. You fail.

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kingdre

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#318 kingdre
Member since 2005 • 9456 Posts
I'm completely against it. Killing babies is just... wrong.
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alexmurray

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#319 alexmurray
Member since 2005 • 2665 Posts

[QUOTE="alexmurray"]the woman should have the choice not usSylentButDeadly

They alreeady made the choice when they had sex. You fail.

No not fail, is it your right to say what she can and cant do

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alexmurray

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#320 alexmurray
Member since 2005 • 2665 Posts

I'm completely against it. Killing babies is just... wrong.kingdre

Not babies fetuses

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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#321 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

To me these people crack me up who are hardcore against this.. Yet most of these people never talk about helping the billions suffering on this planet.. Hypocrisy at its best.

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kingdre

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#322 kingdre
Member since 2005 • 9456 Posts

[QUOTE="kingdre"]I'm completely against it. Killing babies is just... wrong.alexmurray

Not babies fetuses

Babies, fetuses, call them what you will. They're still people. Granted they aren't fully developed, but people nonetheless.

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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#323 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts
[QUOTE="alexmurray"]

[QUOTE="kingdre"]I'm completely against it. Killing babies is just... wrong.kingdre

Not babies fetuses

Babies, fetuses, call them what you will. They're still people. Granted they aren't fully developed, but people nonetheless.

On the philsophical sense.. No it is still be debated..

On the scientifical sense.. No its still be debated..

On the government sense.. No not at all law strictly sees that before teh first trimester the fetus is seen as nothing..

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alexmurray

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#324 alexmurray
Member since 2005 • 2665 Posts
[QUOTE="alexmurray"]

[QUOTE="kingdre"]I'm completely against it. Killing babies is just... wrong.kingdre

Not babies fetuses

Babies, fetuses, call them what you will. They're still people. Granted they aren't fully developed, but people nonetheless.

They dont know life yet, so they dont have anything to miss, and It happens so early that they cant think

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Anti-Venom

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#325 Anti-Venom
Member since 2008 • 5646 Posts

abortion is murder

I presented the best argument...I win

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alexmurray

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#326 alexmurray
Member since 2005 • 2665 Posts

abortion is murder

I presented the best argument...I win

Anti-Venom

Thats a terrible argument:roll:

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Theokhoth

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#327 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts

To me these people crack me up who are hardcore against this.. Yet most of these people never talk about helping the billions suffering on this planet.. Hypocrisy at its best.

sSubZerOo

You know what's hypocrisy? Following a so-called "pro-choice" movement that

Denies the choice of the father of the baby in an abortion,

Denies the choice of the doctor in an abortion,

Denies the choice of the baby in an abortion.

"Pro-choice" doesn't exist in terms of abortion. It's a lie covered up in a fancy title. It's nothing more than another form of birth control that you either accept or people who do accept it badger you about how "you don't support born life" even though they have never met you.

"Pro-choice" doesn't grant people the ability to exercise their rights; it forces rights that nobody ever had. "Pro-choice" is one of the most anti-choice, anti-libertarian, anti-rights movements in history.

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alexmurray

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#328 alexmurray
Member since 2005 • 2665 Posts
[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

To me these people crack me up who are hardcore against this.. Yet most of these people never talk about helping the billions suffering on this planet.. Hypocrisy at its best.

Theokhoth

You know what's hypocrisy? Following a so-called "pro-choice" movement that

Denies the choice of the father of the baby in an abortion,If the father left he dosnt deserve one

Denies the choice of the doctor in an abortion, In the UK you do

Denies the choice of the baby in an abortion. It cant think

"Pro-choice" doesn't exist in terms of abortion. It's a lie covered up in a fancy title. It's nothing more than another form of birth control that you either accept or people who do accept it badger you about how "you don't support born life" even though they have never met you.

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Anti-Venom

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#329 Anti-Venom
Member since 2008 • 5646 Posts
[QUOTE="Anti-Venom"]

abortion is murder

I presented the best argument...I win

alexmurray

Thats a terrible argument:roll:

more terrible then a rotten egg for breakfast?

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Theokhoth

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#330 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts

If the father left he dosnt deserve one

Agreed. Of course, the fathers that stay are denied a choice.

In the UK you do

Good for the UK.

It cant think

Neither can people with certain mental disorders or comatose patients.

alexmurray

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alexmurray

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#331 alexmurray
Member since 2005 • 2665 Posts
[QUOTE="alexmurray"][QUOTE="Anti-Venom"]

abortion is murder

I presented the best argument...I win

Anti-Venom

Thats a terrible argument:roll:

more terrible then a rotten egg for breakfast?

Yes, Yes it is

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Anti-Venom

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#332 Anti-Venom
Member since 2008 • 5646 Posts
[QUOTE="Anti-Venom"][QUOTE="alexmurray"][QUOTE="Anti-Venom"]

abortion is murder

I presented the best argument...I win

alexmurray

Thats a terrible argument:roll:

more terrible then a rotten egg for breakfast?

Yes, Yes it is

how about having a farm animal for a wife? Is it worse then that?

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alexmurray

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#333 alexmurray
Member since 2005 • 2665 Posts
[QUOTE="alexmurray"]

Neither can people with certain mental disorders or comatose patients.

And like Fetuses, people think for them

Theokhoth

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alexmurray

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#334 alexmurray
Member since 2005 • 2665 Posts
[QUOTE="alexmurray"][QUOTE="Anti-Venom"][QUOTE="alexmurray"][QUOTE="Anti-Venom"]

abortion is murder

I presented the best argument...I win

Anti-Venom

Thats a terrible argument:roll:

more terrible then a rotten egg for breakfast?

Yes, Yes it is

how about having a farm animal for a wife? Is it worse then that?

Erh, thats terrible so no

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Theokhoth

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#335 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts
[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Neither can people with certain mental disorders or comatose patients.

And like Fetuses, people think for them

alexmurray

But they don't kill them, and legally they can't unless the say they want to.

Another tenet of hypocrisy in abortion, really.

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metaldude05

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#336 metaldude05
Member since 2008 • 978 Posts
i have heard alot of people say that they think abortion is right if a woman is raped. i think rape is probably one of the worst things that can happen to a person and i truly do care for anyone who has ever had to go through that much pain. but what makes it right if a woman is raped. isnt it the same as any situation. you are still killing an unborn baby. I am not trying to argue with anybody. i truly just want other peoples point of view on this. i havent heard a good argument that it is any different yet. but i have really thought about this alot and havent really come up with a complete conclusion myself
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alexmurray

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#337 alexmurray
Member since 2005 • 2665 Posts
[QUOTE="alexmurray"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Neither can people with certain mental disorders or comatose patients.

And like Fetuses, people think for them

Theokhoth

But they don't kill them, and legally they can't unless the say they want to.

Another tenet of hypocrisy in abortion, really.

But they cant say they dont want to die, you dont hear them sceam dont pull the plug

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jazznate

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#338 jazznate
Member since 2008 • 1202 Posts
[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

To me these people crack me up who are hardcore against this.. Yet most of these people never talk about helping the billions suffering on this planet.. Hypocrisy at its best.

Theokhoth

You know what's hypocrisy? Following a so-called "pro-choice" movement that

Denies the choice of the father of the baby in an abortion, [Father's not the one who has to go through ****ing labor]

Denies the choice of the doctor in an abortion,[Why should the doctor have a say solely based on his beliefs, you can always get ANOTHER DOCTOR]

Denies the choice of the baby in an abortion.[A fetus cannot even make the choice in the first place and who says that a fetus is a person?]

"Pro-choice" doesn't exist in terms of abortion. It's a lie covered up in a fancy title. It's nothing more than another form of birth control that you either accept or people who do accept it badger you about how "you don't support born life" even though they have never met you.

"Pro-choice" doesn't grant people the ability to exercise their rights; it forces rights that nobody ever had. "Pro-choice" is one of the most anti-choice, anti-libertarian, anti-rights movements in history [It is the most libertarian choice. You are only thinking of the "rights" of the fetus if it is even entitled to rights in the first place. What about the woman's rights? What if the woman was raped? Doesn't she have the right to skip over the emotional pain involved with having a child that is the product of rape? That aside, I believe it's the woman's choice. Have you ever seen a woman going through labor?]

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Theokhoth

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#339 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts

i have heard alot of people say that they think abortion is right if a woman is raped. i think rape is probably one of the worst things that can happen to a person and i truly do care for anyone who has ever had to go through that much pain. but what makes it right if a woman is raped. isnt it the same as any situation. you are still killing an unborn baby. I am not trying to argue with anybody. i truly just want other peoples point of view on this. i havent heard a good argument that it is any different yet. but i have really thought about this alot and havent really come up with a complete conclusion myselfmetaldude05

The line of reasoning is that the woman will have to suffer through more pain if she "is forced" to give birth to a baby she never wanted.

The clear issue here is: She'll be in pain for the rest of her life, whether she gives birth to it or not. She can put it up for adoption if she wants to, and that's what most women do when they have a baby because of rape. Killing a baby for the crimes of a rapist is unjust in the highest degree.

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alexmurray

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#340 alexmurray
Member since 2005 • 2665 Posts

[QUOTE="metaldude05"]i have heard alot of people say that they think abortion is right if a woman is raped. i think rape is probably one of the worst things that can happen to a person and i truly do care for anyone who has ever had to go through that much pain. but what makes it right if a woman is raped. isnt it the same as any situation. you are still killing an unborn baby. I am not trying to argue with anybody. i truly just want other peoples point of view on this. i havent heard a good argument that it is any different yet. but i have really thought about this alot and havent really come up with a complete conclusion myselfTheokhoth

The line of reasoning is that the woman will have to suffer through more pain if she "is forced" to give birth to a baby she never wanted.

The clear issue here is: She'll be in pain for the rest of her life, whether she gives birth to it or not. She can put it up for adoption if she wants to, and that's what most women do when they have a baby because of rape. Killing a baby for the crimes of a rapist is unjust in the highest degree.

Its not a baby its a fetus

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Theokhoth

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#341 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts

[Father's not the one who has to go through ****ing labor]

****ing labor wouldn't exist without the father. It's his child just as much as the woman's.


[Why should the doctor have a say solely based on his beliefs, you can always get ANOTHER DOCTOR]

But that's not what happens, is it? If a doctor who never signed up in an abortion clinic is told to have an abortion and refuses, he is fired. Not so "pro-choice" to me.

[A fetus cannot even make the choice in the first place

Exactly.

and who says that a fetus is a person?]

The majority of America's population. But apparently the word of the Supreme Court is better.


[It is the most libertarian choice.

No.

You are only thinking of the "rights" of the fetus if it is even entitled to rights in the first place.

The mother has no right to kill her children. The only reason fetuses no longer have rights (they used to) is because a piece of paper was signed that said "no."

What about the woman's rights?

No woman ever has the right to kill her children, for any reason, at any time, in any circumstance.

What if the woman was raped?

Adoption.

Doesn't she have the right to skip over the emotional pain involved with having a child that is the product of rape?

What emotional pain could she possibly experience that she hasn't already? There's no proof that she even undergoes emotional pain from giving birth to a baby from rape!

That aside, I believe it's the woman's choice.

No man or woman has the choice to kill a child.

Have you ever seen a woman going through labor?]

Yes. I've also seen women after going through abortions. Women are built to handle labor. I have never, ever, not once in my life seen a woman go through labor that did not later say either "it wasn't too horrible" or "I would go through it again."

Quite the opposite for abortion, however.

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jazznate

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#342 jazznate
Member since 2008 • 1202 Posts

I'm getting sick of these abortion topics sprouting up every single day. We've all explained our positions dozens of times that I think we should all have a pre-prepared document ready to post, so that's exactly what I'm going to provide. A paper I did on this very issue in PHL 201 last year at my university. Have fun!

The Abortion Issue

The abortion issue is one of great controversy in today's society. It is something that has been a key moral and political issue for years and continues to find its way into the limelight. The two major stances are those of pro-choice and pro-life. For the most part, people on the pro-choice side argue that a fetus is not yet a person (in a moral sense) and as such does not have the full rights of one. They also believe that a woman's rights and liberty allows her to have the freedom to choose to have an abortion if she sees fit. On the other hand, the pro-life people argue that a fetus is a person and has the same rights as someone who is born. This would mean that killing a fetus would be equal to murder, and because you wouldn't kill a born person, you also wouldn't kill a fetus as well. The two philosophers I've studied on the issue of abortion are Mary Ann Warren (pro-choice)1 and John T. Noonan (pro-life)2. For the sake of argument, I'm going to take the side of Warren in saying that a fetus does not meet the criteria of being a human in the moral sense and as such does not share any moral rights of one.


To decide whether or not a fetus is a human, you must first define what makes up being a human. Noonan takes the genetic approach of defining what a human is by saying, "A being with a human genetic code is a man." I find problems in this definition because I find it too simplistic and lends itself easily to reductio ad absurdum. For instance, in my finger I have full human genetic code but I wouldn't consider my finger a human being. Noonan needs to provide more criteria for the definition of a human being than just the genetic sense. On the other hand, Warren attempts to define humanity in a more moral sense. She provides five criteria for humanity: "Consciousness (of objects and events external and/or internal to the being), reasoning (the developed capacity to solve new and relatively complex problems), self-motivated activity (activity which is relatively independent of either genetic or direct external control), the capacity to communicate, and self-awareness." This definition is not without its problems however, and Warren does admit it is somewhat flawed. She goes on to say that a person doesn't have to necessarily meet all the criteria, but to meet none of the criteria would definitely make you not a person. I think the main problem with her criteria is that a newborn child doesn't meet her criteria. I do however agree with the concept of her definition of humanity in the sense that we need a more "moral sense" definition of being human rather than just a hard genetic definition like the one that Noonan gave. Humans are the most sophisticated of all the creatures on the planet and I think that just having human genetic code isn't enough for a good, stable definition.


The main issue at stake here is deciding whether a fetus is human or not. Knowing both Noonan's and Warren's definitions of being human it's quite obvious to see that taking Noonan's definition, a fetus is human and with Warren's definition a fetus is not human. As I stated earlier, for the sake of argument I'm going to agree with Warren's definition of humanity and stance on a fetus not being human. A lot of people on the pro-life side say that you become a human at the point of conception. I find it ridiculous to believe an embryo and a living born person share the same rights. The two are so far apart and you can't just look at the genetics. A large part of being human are things like consciousness, reasoning, and self awareness. But what about the potential for humanity? Undoubtedly a fetus will eventually turn into a human so shouldn't we preserve that potential? Well, sperm and ovums are also potential humans and there isn't much of a battle to preserve those. Sperm is killed through the use of contraception and masturbation and ovums are frequently destroyed naturally by ovulation. I think that just having potential for humanity doesn't constitute a good reason to get rid of abortion. A potential human's rights should not be held higher than the rights of a fully human woman.


So, does a fetus have a right to life? According to Noonan and others on the pro-life side that answer would be yes, simply through this argument, "It is wrong to kill innocent human beings, and fetuses are innocent human beings, then it is wrong to kill fetuses." All this is really doing is begging the question. If you assume the moral definition of human is being used, saying fetuses are human beings begs the question by assuming fetuses are in fact humans in the moral sense. If you assume the genetic definition of human is being used, saying it is wrong to kill human beings begs the question by assuming it is wrong to kill something that possesses human genetic code. Of course, you can't use both definitions because you would be guilty of equivocation. Of course, siding with Warren, you can conclude that because a fetus is not a person it doesn't share the same moral rights as one and if right to life is a moral human right, a fetus doesn't have that right. And as I stated earlier, a fetus does have a potential for humanity, but just having potential doesn't grant you full human rights.


My personal stance on the entire issue is that there's really no failsafe way to tell if a fetus is human or not. Though I lean more on the side of Warren with the issue, she still doesn't provide enough to fully say that a fetus is definitely not human and Noonan did an even poorer job at trying to convince me that a fetus is a human. Considering we can't tell if a fetus is human or not, the best course of action is to simply side with the rights of the woman. This is a principle seen in our criminal system. If you don't know whether or not a suspect committed a crime or not, the state sides with their rights and lets the person walk free. I don't look at the abortion issue as an issue concerning murder of an innocent life, I look at it as a woman's rights issue. The state should not be the one telling a woman what she can or can't do to her body. In a country whose favorite word is "freedom", we should be preserving personal freedom, not trying to take it away.

1Warren, Mary Anne. https://blackboard.csupomona.edu/webapps/portal/frameset.jsp?tab=courses&url=/bin/common/course.pl?course_id=_15660_1

2Noonan, John T. http://caae.phil.cmu.edu/Cavalier/Forum/abortion/background/Noonan.html

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Theokhoth

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#343 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts

But they cant say they dont want to die, you dont hear them sceam dont pull the plug

alexmurray

Exactly. With a comatose patient, you cannot kill them unless they have explicitly said, either on paper or on video, that they want to die in that circumstance.

Fetuses don't get such a privilege.

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Theokhoth

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#344 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts
[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="metaldude05"]i have heard alot of people say that they think abortion is right if a woman is raped. i think rape is probably one of the worst things that can happen to a person and i truly do care for anyone who has ever had to go through that much pain. but what makes it right if a woman is raped. isnt it the same as any situation. you are still killing an unborn baby. I am not trying to argue with anybody. i truly just want other peoples point of view on this. i havent heard a good argument that it is any different yet. but i have really thought about this alot and havent really come up with a complete conclusion myselfalexmurray

The line of reasoning is that the woman will have to suffer through more pain if she "is forced" to give birth to a baby she never wanted.

The clear issue here is: She'll be in pain for the rest of her life, whether she gives birth to it or not. She can put it up for adoption if she wants to, and that's what most women do when they have a baby because of rape. Killing a baby for the crimes of a rapist is unjust in the highest degree.

Its not a baby its a fetus

A fetus is a baby. And I refuse to define life based on semantic wording.

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alexmurray

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#345 alexmurray
Member since 2005 • 2665 Posts
[QUOTE="alexmurray"]

But they cant say they dont want to die, you dont hear them sceam dont pull the plug

Theokhoth

Exactly. With a comatose patient, you cannot kill them unless they have explicitly said, either on paper or on video, that they want to die in that circumstance.

Fetuses don't get such a privilege.

Comatose patients once had the ablity to think

Fetuses never did

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alexmurray

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#346 alexmurray
Member since 2005 • 2665 Posts
[QUOTE="alexmurray"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="metaldude05"]i have heard alot of people say that they think abortion is right if a woman is raped. i think rape is probably one of the worst things that can happen to a person and i truly do care for anyone who has ever had to go through that much pain. but what makes it right if a woman is raped. isnt it the same as any situation. you are still killing an unborn baby. I am not trying to argue with anybody. i truly just want other peoples point of view on this. i havent heard a good argument that it is any different yet. but i have really thought about this alot and havent really come up with a complete conclusion myselfTheokhoth

The line of reasoning is that the woman will have to suffer through more pain if she "is forced" to give birth to a baby she never wanted.

The clear issue here is: She'll be in pain for the rest of her life, whether she gives birth to it or not. She can put it up for adoption if she wants to, and that's what most women do when they have a baby because of rape. Killing a baby for the crimes of a rapist is unjust in the highest degree.

Its not a baby its a fetus

A fetus is a baby. And I refuse to define life based on semantic wording.

a baby is a developed fetus its not the same

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metaldude05

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#347 metaldude05
Member since 2008 • 978 Posts

[QUOTE="metaldude05"]i have heard alot of people say that they think abortion is right if a woman is raped. i think rape is probably one of the worst things that can happen to a person and i truly do care for anyone who has ever had to go through that much pain. but what makes it right if a woman is raped. isnt it the same as any situation. you are still killing an unborn baby. I am not trying to argue with anybody. i truly just want other peoples point of view on this. i havent heard a good argument that it is any different yet. but i have really thought about this alot and havent really come up with a complete conclusion myselfTheokhoth

The line of reasoning is that the woman will have to suffer through more pain if she "is forced" to give birth to a baby she never wanted.

The clear issue here is: She'll be in pain for the rest of her life, whether she gives birth to it or not. She can put it up for adoption if she wants to, and that's what most women do when they have a baby because of rape. Killing a baby for the crimes of a rapist is unjust in the highest degree.

yea ive heard that reasoning before. i tend to agree with you that there are options like adoption and nothing is going to take away the pain of being raped. ive known two woman who have gone through that and they cant talk about i 20 years later without breaking down.

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Ice_52

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#348 Ice_52
Member since 2008 • 261 Posts

If you don't use protection, i'm sorry, i don't care about your "rights". The only time when i think abortion is good is when a woman is raped. She couldn't help getting pregnant and she has to live with the constant reminder of what happened to her.

Think about it this way. A baby can be aborted at 24 weeks old. BABIES CAN BE BORN AND SURVIVE AT 24 WEEKS. Let's say a woman, prematurely gives birth to a baby at 24 weeks, and then murders it on the same day. That woman would be ARRESTED. It makes no difference, however, if she coulda just killed it by aborting it.

Then people commonly approach my views with the whole: "What if the baby is deformed, or is going to be born very ill?". Abortion isn't the answer though! You can't just say "that baby is DEFINATELY not going to enjoy life". How do you know? you aren't giving it a chance. Doesn't it deserve to do all the little things that we take for granted, like seeing the colours of the sky, or listening to it's favourite song, or falling in love or thinking about something?

Let me ask YOU something. Do you know how many women die through unsafe abortions each year? 68,000. That's a disgrace. Not only might the baby die, but the women will too.

Michael Jay Tucker once said:

"If the anti-abortion movement took a tenth of the energy they put into noisy theatrics and devoted it to improving the lives of children who have been born into lives of poverty, violence, and neglect, they could make a world shine."

I would respond to this by saying that if liberals took a tenth of the energy they put into trying to save violent criminals from facing death row, and devoted it to improving the lives of children who have been born into lives of poverty, violence and neglect, they could make the world shine.

What are your thoughts on abortion? do you agree with anything i'm saying?

Stumpt25

lol. I like the way you put rights in quotations in your opening sentence, like women don't have them or something

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PannicAtack

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#349 PannicAtack
Member since 2006 • 21040 Posts

The dialogue on abortion is just nauseating. Strip away all the holier-than-thou bull**** and the red herring of 'personal rights,' and all you have is personal belief:

"Yes it is"

"No it isn't"

"Yes it is"

"No it isn't"

"Yes it is"

"No it isn't"

>_>

PannicAtack
I'm still right. >_>
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Theokhoth

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#350 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts

Ooh, how fun! I want to be a teacher, you see. Essays are fun to examine.

I'm getting sick of these abortion topics sprouting up every single day. We've all explained our positions dozens of times that I think we should all have a pre-prepared document ready to post, so that's exactly what I'm going to provide. A paper I did on this very issue in PHL 201 last year at my university. Have fun!

The Abortion Issue

The abortion issue is one of great controversy in today's society. It is something that has been a key moral and political issue for years and continues to find its way into the limelight. The two major stances are those of pro-choice and pro-life. For the most part, people on the pro-choice side argue that a fetus is not yet a person (in a moral sense) and as such does not have the full rights of one. They also believe that a woman's rights and liberty allows her to have the freedom to choose to have an abortion if she sees fit. On the other hand, the pro-life people argue that a fetus is a person and has the same rights as someone who is born. This would mean that killing a fetus would be equal to murder, and because you wouldn't kill a born person, you also wouldn't kill a fetus as well. The two philosophers I've studied on the issue of abortion are Mary Ann Warren (pro-choice)1 and John T. Noonan (pro-life)2. For the sake of argument, I'm going to take the side of Warren in saying that a fetus does not meet the criteria of being a human in the moral sense and as such does not share any moral rights of one.


To decide whether or not a fetus is a human, you must first define what makes up being a human. Noonan takes the genetic approach of defining what a human is by saying, "A being with a human genetic code is a man." I find problems in this definition because I find it too simplistic and lends itself easily to reductio ad absurdum. For instance, in my finger I have full human genetic code but I wouldn't consider my finger a human being.

The cells in your finger do not have the potential to be a human, whereas an embryo does. If Noonan's genetic example stands alone, then your argument is valid; however, when combined with the argument from potential, your counter-argument is meaningless and a borderline strawman.

Noonan needs to provide more criteria for the definition of a human being than just the genetic sense.

Why? After all, a species is defined by its genes. We call a bird a bird because it has the genetic makeup of a bird. The only thing separating mentally deficient humans from most apes is our slight difference in genetics.

On the other hand, Warren attempts to define humanity in a more moral sense.

One of the mantras of the pro-choice movement against the pro-life movement is not forcing your morality on others. This mantra is exercised whenever a pro-lifer argues that it is morally wrong to kill a fetus. So if morals aren't allowed, we must stick to a scientific approach. But then, science greatly favors the pro-life position that fetuses are human, as fetuses have human DNA and are members of homo sapiens. So which is it?

She provides five criteria for humanity

And why should these criteria be accepted? What makes her an authority on who is and who is not a human? If she were to (hypothetically) define a black person to not be human, and then outline five criteriafor what is human that conveniently excludes black people, would she be correct? Would her criteria even matter? Would people be asking "What gives her the right to define human life?"? Would they be justified in asking?

: "Consciousness (of objects and events external and/or internal to the being),

Fetuses have been reported of trying to escape the tools used by abortionists and can feel pain.

reasoning (the developed capacity to solve new and relatively complex problems),

Young children (between the ages of 0 and 2) do not meet this criteria, therefore, as they are considered human, I see no good reason to regard this criteria as valid.

self-motivated activity (activity which is relatively independent of either genetic or direct external control),

It is debatable as to whether or not such a thing exists. In addition, young children (between the ages of 0 and 10 and up) do not meet this criteria.

the capacity to communicate,

People are born with speech disorders. People who are deaf cannot speak well. Comatose men and women cannot communicate.

and self-awareness."

Not achieved until the baby reaches age 1.

This definition is not without its problems however, and Warren does admit it is somewhat flawed.She goes on to say that a person doesn't have to necessarily meet all the criteria, but to meet none of the criteria would definitely make you not a person.

Fetuses meet the second criteria.

I think the main problem with her criteria is that a newborn child doesn't meet her criteria. I do however agree with the concept of her definition of humanity in the sense that we need a more "moral sense" definition of being human rather than just a hard genetic definition like the one that Noonan gave. Humans are the most sophisticated of all the creatures on the planet and I think that just having human genetic code isn't enough for a good, stable definition.

Again, explain why.


The main issue at stake here is deciding whether a fetus is human or not. Knowing both Noonan's and Warren's definitions of being human it's quite obvious to see that taking Noonan's definition, a fetus is human and with Warren's definition a fetus is not human.

Even though fetuses meet Warren's second criteria: consciousness.

As I stated earlier, for the sake of argument I'm going to agree with Warren's definition of humanity and stance on a fetus not being human. A lot of people on the pro-life side say that you become a human at the point of conception. I find it ridiculous to believe an embryo and a living born person share the same rights.

I find it inhumane that people would kill other people because they find their view of being people ridiculous.

The two are so far apart and you can't just look at the genetics.

Again, why? Just waving it off does not an argument make. You've also moved the goalpost with this paragraph: in the previous paragraphs you were speaking of fetuses, but now you have abruptly switched to embryos.

A large part of being human are things like consciousness, reasoning, and self awareness.

According to Dr. Warren, of course.

But what about the potential for humanity? Undoubtedly a fetus will eventually turn into a human so shouldn't we preserve that potential? Well, sperm and ovums are also potential humans and there isn't much of a battle to preserve those.

Because they have no potential to be a human. A sperm, when mixed with an egg, ceases to be a sperm and thus has no potential to be a human. Same with an ovum.

Sperm is killed through the use of contraception and masturbation and ovums are frequently destroyed naturally by ovulation.

Masturbation and ovulation are perfectly natural. Abortion is not.

I think that just having potential for humanity doesn't constitute a good reason to get rid of abortion.A potential human's rights should not be held higher than the rights of a fully human woman.

A fully human woman does not have the right to kill another human, "fully human" or not.

So, does a fetus have a right to life? According to Noonan and others on the pro-life side that answer would be yes, simply through this argument, "It is wrong to kill innocent human beings, and fetuses are innocent human beings, then it is wrong to kill fetuses." All this is really doing is begging the question. If you assume the moral definition of human is being used, saying fetuses are human beings begs the question by assuming fetuses are in fact humans in the moral sense. If you assume the genetic definition of human is being used, saying it is wrong to kill human beings begs the question by assuming it is wrong to kill something that possesses human genetic code.

The genetic code AND the human potential. Don't forget that.

Of course, you can't use both definitions because you would be guilty of equivocation.

Why's that?

Of course, siding with Warren, you can conclude that because a fetus is not a person it doesn't share the same moral rights as one and if right to life is a moral human right, a fetus doesn't have that right.

If rights are simply moral then abortion should be extremely illegal.

And as I stated earlier, a fetus does have a potential for humanity, but just having potential doesn't grant you full human rights.

It should at least grant you the single most fundamental right, the one from which all others stem: The Inalienable Right to Life.


My personal stance on the entire issue

And that's where no reply from me is necessary.


jazznate

Out of curiosity, what grade did you get on this paper, and what kind was it?