Abortion

[QUOTE="zmbi_gmr"]

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

Sure there's a few more people involved, but those people have choses to be involved (or not involved, as is often the case with the father). Sure it's life. We end life all the time. What makes this fetus an exception?

worlock77

Generalize much? If I were a betting man (which I am) I'd put money down that most teen pregnancies that end in abortion are by teen girls who decided to not inform the father. Then there is the other side of the coin where the father would like to keep the child, but since the mother has the final call they get to decide the fate.

There is a big difference from ending the life of a fetus who's done nothing wrong compared to ending the life of an inmate on death row or an enemy in war, etc... Yes we end life all the time, but that is not the discussion here. That bit on info doesn't challenge the fact that ending the life of a fetus is wrong or not. I guess that is the direction you were trying to steer this conversation, but maybe I'm wrong?

- I didn't realize this was a topic specifically about teens getting abortions. I thought it was about abortion in general.

- I was not steering the topic in any direction. I stated that we end life all the time. What makes a fetus so special here? Yeah, we kill people in our death chambers. We kill enemy combatants. We end the lives thousands of innocents in our wars and callously write them off as "collateral damage". We end the lives of the sick, the hungry, the homeless by our refusal to do anything. We end the lives of animals by the millions in order to sate our lust for meat. We end the lives of millions more animals by our destruction of the environment. We clearly do not hold life to be sacred, so what makes the fetus so worthy of being protected?

the topic isn't about just teen pregnancies. Sorry, I'm at work and I had an idea and I ran with it. That happens when I'm constantly looking over my shoulder. lol I don't know what to say about how we take life daily throughout the world with little to no remorse for our actions, but there is something special about a life starting out in the womb. They are so helpless, and depend solely on their mother for nurturing. So when that mother decides to stop that connection whether if it's for a good purpose or just a selfish act it turns my stomach. That much most here in OT should be able to understand regardless if they are pro-choice or not. That fetus is physically connected to the mother, and I guess that is why I tend to feel so strongly over this topic.

[QUOTE="no_more_fayth"]

So is it wrong to kill in the time of war?

CBR600-RR

Yes, war is silly.

That may be.

But saying "It's silly" doesn't answer my question.

Abortion is immoral, period.

CBR600-RR

[QUOTE="no_more_fayth"]

So is it wrong to kill in the time of war?

CBR600-RR

Yes, war is silly.

War isn't so silly when it's your home being attacked. But I guess we shouldn't defend our selves because we might kill someone and that would be immoral right?

Also, Palantas is onto a good point. If we class the thing (whatever the s*** it is when we decide to abort), as a person who is entitled to a full set of legal rights, why would it matter about the circumstances of its origin? It remains a person whatever the origin according to the line of thought, and surely that line of thought is centred around the idea that you shouldn't end a human's life regardless of its circumstances.

T_P_O

Thank you. :)

The only possible time when "circumstances" are an issue is when the mother's life is a stake. Then it seems like there might be a self-defense issue there. Not self-defense as we normally think of it (e.g., a crazy man running at me with a knife, so I shoot him), but self-defense in the sense that the only way a person can continue living is by killing another person.

That may be.

But saying "It's silly" doesn't answer my question.

no_more_fayth

It's all wrong.

Usually we elaborate on why we class something as moral or immoral, can we do this here? T_P_O

Why should anyone have the right to end one's life? You never know what that fetus could turn out to be in the future, a physicist, doctor, who knows.
Once all grown up, I doubt that fetus would care who his/her dad was, the mother is most important.

[QUOTE="no_more_fayth"]

So is it wrong to kill in the time of war?

CBR600-RR

Yes, war is silly.

I would steal as a last resort to feed my family so that they may live...is doing what it takes to feed my family wrong?BreakTheseLinks

Then that's your fault you got yourself into that situation.

War isn't so silly when it's your home being attacked. But I guess we shouldn't defend our selves because we might kill someone and that would be immoral right?

redstorm72

Now that's just scare tactics, that wouldn't stop me from saying it's all silly.

It doesn't matter how I was placed in this situation. The issue is whether or not it's moral to steal food in order to survive. BreakTheseLinks

Still wrong, like I said; it's your own fault you got yourself there.

And once again morality is subjective.

I think it's immoral for people to own machine guns.

But I'm not going to yell at them for doing so.

Because abortion sends babies to God faster!!

mywalletsgone

Thanks, that actually made me laugh out loud. I'm still chuckling in fact.

The simple solution is, if you don't believe in abortion don't get one. I probably destroy more "living cells" in the shower each morning than are lost in an average abortion. Should we ban bathing too?

[QUOTE="redstorm72"]

War isn't so silly when it's your home being attacked. But I guess we shouldn't defend our selves because we might kill someone and that would be immoral right?

CBR600-RR

Now that's just scare tactics, that wouldn't stop me from saying it's all silly.

It's not scare tactics, it's a real world situation. You can't just invalidate ny argument by saying it's silly. Not everyone follows your black and white view of morality, so what happens when you are confronted by someone who would do wrong to you? I guess you can't fight them because it's morally wrong to do harm to others in any circumstance (including defending yourself).

And once again morality is subjective.

I think it's immoral for people to own machine guns.

But I'm not going to yell at them for doing so.

no_more_fayth

[QUOTE="no_more_fayth"]

And once again morality is subjective.

I think it's immoral for people to own machine guns.

But I'm not going to yell at them for doing so.

CBR600-RR

Oh, so now you want some else to explain why they find something immoral when you yourself refused to explain your point. That's not hypocritical or anything.

[QUOTE="no_more_fayth"]

And once again morality is subjective.

I think it's immoral for people to own machine guns.

But I'm not going to yell at them for doing so.

CBR600-RR

Because it's a matter of opinion just how you have one.

It's not scare tactics, it's a real world situation. You can't just invalidate ny argument by saying it's silly. Not everyone follows your black and white view of morality, so what happens when you are confronted by someone who would do wrong to you? I guess you can't fight them because it's morally wrong to do harm to others in any circumstance (including defending yourself).

redstorm72

I would defend myself, I wouldn't kill them but put them in a situation where they would flee.

You're putting words into my mouth. I didn't say it was morally wrong to defend yourself, I said it's wrong to kill.

Oh, so now you want some else to explain why they find something immoral when you yourself refused to explain your point. That's not hypocritical or anything.

redstorm72

I guess in his subjective morality it's fine to engage in dishonest debating.

Anyway, I think moral subjectivity is great. For example, it's not immoral for me to screw my neighbor's wife, 'cause there's not really any consequences for me from it. However, it is immoral for me to brutually murder my neighbor with an axe, 'cause I might get arrested (unless I'm really sure I can get away with it). Abortion's the best kind of morally acceptable. A fetus can't fight back at all, and generally you can get it done so nobody knows. Basically, as long as something doesn't negatively affect me, it's morally acceptable, subjectively.

[QUOTE="redstorm72"]

Oh, so now you want some else to explain why they find something immoral when you yourself refused to explain your point. That's not hypocritical or anything.

Palantas

I guess in his subjective morality it's fine to engage in dishonest debating.

Anyway, I think moral subjectivity is great. For example, it's not immoral for me to screw my neighbor's wife, 'cause there's not really any consequences for me from it. However, it is immoral for me to brutually murder my neighbor with an axe, 'cause I might get arrested (unless I'm really sure I can get away with it). Abortion's the best kind of morally acceptable. A fetus can't fight back at all, and generally you can get it done so nobody knows. Basically, as long as something doesn't negatively affect me, it's morally acceptable, subjectively.

There is a difference between morality and law. Morality covers everything, including actions not covered by the law. Just because it's not against the law to bang your neighbors wife doesn't mean people wouldn't find it morally reprehensible. The subjectivity of morality just means that your morals don't apply to everyone else.

Because it's a matter of opinion just how you have one.

no_more_fayth

I would say the littlest of things are morally subjective. However, murder, rape and other big things similar are morally wrong and are non-negotiable.

[QUOTE="no_more_fayth"]

Because it's a matter of opinion just how you have one.

CBR600-RR

I would say the littlest of things are morally subjective. However, murder, rape and other big things similar are morally wrong and are non-negotiable.

But abortion isn't murder in my opinion nor is it morally wrong.

I think it's morally wrong for someone to declare their right to prevent a woman from doing something with her body.

[QUOTE="no_more_fayth"]

Because it's a matter of opinion just how you have one.

CBR600-RR

I would say the littlest of things are morally subjective. However, murder, rape and other big things similar are morally wrong and are non-negotiable.

What constitutes murder and what is a life are debatable though.

[QUOTE="CBR600-RR"]

Abortion is immoral, period.

redstorm72

Morality is subjective, period.

[QUOTE="BuryMe"]

What about cases of rape?
Why should the woman have to carry the fetus for 9 months here she didn't even want to perform the act in the first place?

Palantas

Lots of people have posed this question. Maybe you can help me out here.

• Why does it matter if a woman was raped or not?
• Why does it matter if she intented to get pregant or not?

What is the fuctional difference between a woman getting raped or a condom breaking? I don't get it. To my thinking, either the little thing is a person, and you shouldn't kill it irregardless of circumstances, or the little thing is not a person, and you can have abortions as a hobby all you like.

When a condom breaks, the argument of "deal with the consequence of your actions" applies.

When a woman is raped, it's not her actions that led to the pregnancy. THey were totally some one else's

[QUOTE="redstorm72"]

[QUOTE="CBR600-RR"]

Abortion is immoral, period.

CBR600-RR

Morality is subjective, period.

I doubt it, that's like saying it's right to steal.

But abortion isn't murder in my opinion nor is it morally wrong.

I think it's morally wrong for someone to declare their right to prevent a woman from doing something with her body.

no_more_fayth

What if you had a baby on the way and your girlfriend decides to leave you and get an abortion?

What constitutes murder and what is a life are debatable though.

redstorm72

It's life all the way from fertilisation, no doubt about it.

Well whether you're pro-life or pro-choice do we all agree that 1,000,000 abortions per year in the U.S. is way too high?

Of course it's murder, it's a process that ends a life.

What if you had a baby on the way and your girlfriend decides to leave you and get an abortion?

CBR600-RR

Whether or not a fetus is a life is debatable.

Well if my hypothetical girlfriend got pregnant and we weren't ready to have one, I'd gladly pay for the abortion.

If she left me, then oh well.

[QUOTE="no_more_fayth"]

But abortion isn't murder in my opinion nor is it morally wrong.

I think it's morally wrong for someone to declare their right to prevent a woman from doing something with her body.

CBR600-RR

What if you had a baby on the way and your girlfriend decides to leave you and get an abortion?

What constitutes murder and what is a life are debatable though.

redstorm72

It's life all the way from fertilisation, no doubt about it.

And we go right back to the same issue, your opinion is not shared by everyone else. Just because you say it is wrong does not make it so.

Well whether you're pro-life or pro-choice do we all agree that 1,000,000 abortions per year in the U.S. is way too high?

greeneye59

Whether or not a fetus is a life is debatable.

Well if my hypothetical girlfriend got pregnant and we weren't ready to have one, I'd gladly pay for the abortion.

If she left me, then oh well.

no_more_fayth

If it's living, it's life.

If you was ready to start a family, all happy and jolly, then she goes and does that; you will not be too happy.

abortion is necessary

[QUOTE="no_more_fayth"]

Whether or not a fetus is a life is debatable.

Well if my hypothetical girlfriend got pregnant and we weren't ready to have one, I'd gladly pay for the abortion.

If she left me, then oh well.

CBR600-RR

If it's living, it's life.

If you was ready to start a family, all happy and jolly, then she goes and does that; you will not be too happy.

Whether or not it's living is debatable.

I wouldn't be too happy, but how would that change my opinion on abortion? :?

[QUOTE="no_more_fayth"]

Whether or not a fetus is a life is debatable.

Well if my hypothetical girlfriend got pregnant and we weren't ready to have one, I'd gladly pay for the abortion.

If she left me, then oh well.

CBR600-RR

If it's living, it's life.

If you was ready to start a family, all happy and jolly, then she goes and does that; you will not be too happy.

Is a tumor alive? Because an early fetus has as much life as a cancerous growth.

And we go right back to the same issue, your opinion is not shared by everyone else. Just because you say it is wrong does not make it so.

redstorm72

You didn't read did you?

Things like rape and murder are non-negotiable whatever the situation.

Get it into your thick skull.

There is a difference between morality and law. Morality covers everything, including actions not covered by the law. Just because it's not against the law to bang your neighbors wife doesn't mean people wouldn't find it morally reprehensible. The subjectivity of morality just means that your morals don't apply to everyone else.

redstorm72

And no one elses' morals apply to me. There is no "aught to" that applies to my actions. Therefore, I do everything I can get away with, as long as it doesn't bother me. I don't care what anyone else thinks, particularly if they don't come to know about my actions or cannot affect me. I understand the difference between morality and the law.

Whether or not it's living is debatable.

I wouldn't be too happy, but how would that change my opinion on abortion? :?

no_more_fayth

I guess you just don't care enough.

Is a tumor alive? Because an early fetus has as much life as a cancerous growth.

redstorm72

Except that tumour will stay a tumour, it's not going to grow into a being is it?

[QUOTE="redstorm72"]

And we go right back to the same issue, your opinion is not shared by everyone else. Just because you say it is wrong does not make it so.

CBR600-RR

You didn't read did you?

Things like rape and murder are non-negotiable whatever the situation.

Get it into your thick skull.

*sigh*

I already said that what constitutes murder and what is a life is negotiable. Everyone knows murder and rape are wrong, many however do not consider abortion to be murder.

If someone threw a red shoe at me, it wouldn't prevent me from ever buying a red shoe.

I don't see your point. :|

*sigh*

I already said that what constitutes murder and what is a life is negotiable. Everyone knows murder and rape are wrong, many however do not consider abortion to be murder.

redstorm72

Then many people just don't understand what life is.

If someone threw a red shoe at me, it wouldn't prevent me from ever buying a red shoe.

I don't see your point. :|

no_more_fayth

Are you just butt hurt that you got dumped?

[QUOTE="no_more_fayth"]

If someone threw a red shoe at me, it wouldn't prevent me from ever buying a red shoe.

I don't see your point. :|

CBR600-RR

Are you just butt hurt that you got dumped?

How does being dumped have to with my opinion on abortion?

And no.

[QUOTE="I"]

What is the fuctional difference between a woman getting raped or a condom breaking? I don't get it. To my thinking, either the little thing is a person, and you shouldn't kill it irregardless of circumstances, or the little thing is not a person, and you can have abortions as a hobby all you like.

BuryMe

There is a difference between a cndom breaking and getting raped. When a condom breaks, the argument of "deal with the consequence of your actions" applies. When a woman is raped, it's not her actions that led to the pregnancy. THey were totally some one else's

Your statements are entirely too strict. Defective prophylactics caused by poor manufacturing, retail mishandling, or any number of other causes implicate a number of people who are potentially responsible for the pregnancy. Likewise, a woman's activities can increase the chances of her being raped. In neither case did the woman intend to get pregnant.

Anyway, your post here compeletely avoids the main issue in my questioning: If a fetus is a person, then how is it justifiable to kill them because a different person was raped? How does that make any difference? If it's not a person, then obviously rape is a nonfactor, much as rape is a non-issue in getting a mole removed.

Everyone knows murder and rape are wrong, many however do not consider abortion to be murder.

redstorm72

In my subjective morality, only murdering me or people I like is wrong. Obviously, all fetuses fall into the category of people I have not met or seen on television, so I don't give a damn what happens to them.

[QUOTE="redstorm72"]

*sigh*

I already said that what constitutes murder and what is a life is negotiable. Everyone knows murder and rape are wrong, many however do not consider abortion to be murder.

CBR600-RR

Then many people just don't understand what life is.

Then many people just don't understand what life is.

Do you understand what life is? HoolaHoopMan

[QUOTE="HoolaHoopMan"]

Then many people just don't understand what life is.

Do you understand what life is? CBR600-RR

[QUOTE="CBR600-RR"]

[QUOTE="HoolaHoopMan"]

Then many people just don't understand what life is.

Do you understand what life is? HoolaHoopMan

It's everything that happens, then. Saying a fetus isn't life is ignorant.

You have nothing to argue about, you're just trying to make a dig. Go take yourself somewhere.

[QUOTE="HoolaHoopMan"][QUOTE="CBR600-RR"] Anything that lives, breathes, feeds.

CBR600-RR

It's everything that happens, then. Saying a fetus isn't life is ignorant.

You have nothing to argue about, you're just trying to make a dig. Go take yourself somewhere.

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]

[QUOTE="no_more_fayth"]

You guys really want to control what a woman does with her body, huh? :|

redstorm72

It is HER body. That little thing inside her is using her nutrients and her energy to grow. Just because it has different genetic material doesn't make it any less a part of the womans body. A tape worm has different genetic material than the host, but a person has ever right to remove it as it's the persons body that the thing is living in.

Well, technically a fetus is a pararsite.

This thread could be a good arguement for more buttsecks as well.

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]

[QUOTE="no_more_fayth"]

You guys really want to control what a woman does with her body, huh? :|

redstorm72

It is HER body. That little thing inside her is using her nutrients and her energy to grow. Just because it has different genetic material doesn't make it any less a part of the womans body. A tape worm has different genetic material than the host, but a person has ever right to remove it as it's the persons body that the thing is living in.