Afghan Militants Massacre People in UN HQ after Terry Jones Quran Burning.

why couldnt they just burn a bible instead? :cry: that'd be fair

The differencve is that these people didn't do it just to provoke the terrorists, they did it because it is their job and because it was the right thing to do. That stupid pastor did it because he knew it will pisss off the terrorists and innocent people would get killed, it was his motivation. therefore he's an idiot and not better than them.

kuraimen

The difference is that burning the Koran isn't PC, whereas abortion is. Now tell me, what is "the right thing to do"? What does that mean? And tell me how you determined what Terry Jones' motivations are, and explain why they even matter. In your recent abortion of an analogy, you described a bomb, which has no motivations. You're not keeping your posts cogent when they're right next to one another. Perhaps you should start over.

EDIT: Also, for the edification of persons with a viewpoint similar to your own, please describe the personal regimine you use to avoid pissing off crazy people. I see you're posting controversial viewpoints on the Internet. That doesn't seem to be a good way to go about keeping a low profile, but I'm sure you have that covered somehow.

[QUOTE="kuraimen"][QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]

Terrible analogy.

With that logic, Mike Huckabee should be arrested for triple homicide since he pardoned a convict, who later committed triple homicide.

DroidPhysX

And how do you know Terry Jones motive was for people in the middle east to kill UN civilians?

Besides proving his point there's nothing else that justifies his action.kuraimen

What do you mean by "justifies"? Do all actions need to be justified?

Terry Jones did nothing wrong. The fact that everyone knows that doing something that insults islam will result in the deaths of innocent people is a little disconcerting though. It seems like many people are claiming that the muslims who did this are crazy, but I disagree, I think they are completely rational, evil people.

[QUOTE="kuraimen"]

The differencve is that these people didn't do it just to provoke the terrorists, they did it because it is their job and because it was the right thing to do. That stupid pastor did it because he knew it will pisss off the terrorists and innocent people would get killed, it was his motivation. therefore he's an idiot and not better than them.

Palantas

The difference is that burning the Koran isn't PC, whereas abortion is. Now tell me, what is "the right thing to do"? What does that mean? And tell me how you determined what Terry Jones' motivations are, and explain why they even matter. In your recent abortion of an analogy, you described a bomb, which has no motivations. You're not keeping your posts cogent when they're right next to one another. Perhaps you should start over.

[QUOTE="kuraimen"]Besides proving his point there's nothing else that justifies his action.Palantas

What do you mean by "justifies"? Do all actions need to be justified?

Apparently, there are some who believe that muslims in other countries should be allowed to tell us what we can or cannot do.

They believe that muslims should be allowed to control us. . . . To tell a preacher what books he has to respect, and which ones he doesn't have to respect..

No. We cannot allow this.

If there are those who want to be the servants of muslims, be slaves to Islam, and live like cowards - they can. .

. . but that doesn't meant the rest of us have to.

Apparently, there are some who believe that muslims in other countries should be allowed to tell us what we can or cannot do.

They believe that muslims should be allowed to control us. . . . To tell a preacher what books he has to respect, and which ones he doesn't have to respect..

No. We cannot allow this.

If there are those who want to be the servants of muslims, be slaves to Islam, and live like cowards - they can. .

. . but that doesn't meant the rest of us have to.

Born_Lucky

pretty much this

religion is for the mind and soul. It should have zero impact on the real world, on law, on politics, and certainly no impact on whether people live or die.

Apparently, there are some who believe that muslims in other countries should be allowed to tell us what we can or cannot do.

They believe that muslims should be allowed to control us. . . . To tell a preacher what books he has to respect, and which ones he doesn't have to respect..

No. We cannot allow this.

If there are those who want to be the servants of muslims, be slaves to Islam, and live like cowards - they can. .

. . but that doesn't meant the rest of us have to.

Born_Lucky

Not doing what muslims tells us to do and doing something just to piss them off are completely different things. Afterall people around the world every day every second are doing things that are against muslim believes but muslims don't go about killing everyone because of that. But when someone does something for the sole purpose to piss them off and provoke them to kill innocents then that's just stupid and irresponsible.

[QUOTE="RAGINGxPONY"]

Can't blame Terry Jones thats just dumb! I don't care if he burned the Quaran, muslims need to get over it, like really lets kill 7 people who have nothing to do with this, because were mad someone burned a book we really care about. A bunch of immature babies whoever protested and caused the deaths of these people.

th3warr1or

I don't know why you're talking about a bomb having or not having motivations maybe you should read the posts more carefully and actually try to understand them. The point is that an action which is known to cause a consequence and is done with the sole motivation to cause that consequence makes the person who does that action responssible for the consequence.

kuraimen

I'm talking about a bomb, because you brought it up. You decided to compare a bomb, a machine, to a large group of individuals, who are all capable of independent thought and action (entirely unlike a machine). I'm not sure what your point was with this, other than analogies are not your forte. Are you going to attempt to rationalize this, by the way?

In response to your recent post:

1. Describe the mechanism by which Terry Jones knew the consequence his actions would cause.
2. Describe how you know what his motivations are.
3. Describe how you know what Terry Jones believed the consequences of his actions would be.

I believe he has some published writings, which could answer the latter two points. I could go hunting for them, but you're the one making these claims, so presumably you have them at hand.

Not doing what muslims tells us to do and doing something just to piss them off are completely different things. Afterall people around the world every day every second are doing things that are against muslim believes but muslims don't go about killing everyone because of that.

kuraimen

Why are these two completely different things? Also, is it your position then that acts of Muslim violence in modern times were all cause by someone doing something just to piss them off?

But when someone does something for the sole purpose to piss them off and provoke them to kill innocents then that's just stupid and irresponsible.

kuraimen

Why does it matter if someone is doing something for the sole purpose of pissing someone off, versus doing something for an array of purposes, while also possessing the knowledge that their actions piss someone off?

It seems like many people are claiming that the muslims who did this are crazy, but I disagree, I think they are completely rational, evil people.

EntropyWins

If I were to actually hammer it out, I would say that Muslim extremists are people who have different presuppositions than I do. This causes them to behave in different ways than me, and thus we don't get along. However, for the purposes of conversation in this thread, I'll be using "crazy." This hasn't been a point of contention with anyone I've been talking to, so I'll stick with it for now.

I'm talking about a bomb, because you brought it up. You decided to compare a bomb, a machine, to a large group of individuals, who are all capable of independent thought and action (entirely unlike a machine). I'm not sure what your point was with this, other than analogies are not your forte. Are you going to attempt to rationalize this, by the way?In response to your recent post:Describe the mechanism by which Terry Jones knew the consequence his actions would cause.Describe how you know what his motivations are.Describe how you know what Terry Jones believed the consequences of his actions would be.I believe he has some published writings, which could answer the latter two points. I could go hunting for them, but you're the one making these claims, so presumably you have them at hand.Palantas

Why are these two completely different things? Also, is it your position then that acts of Muslim violence in modern times were all cause by someone doing something just to piss them off?Palantas

Why does it matter if someone is doing something for the sole purpose of pissing someone off, versus doing something for an array of purposes, while also possessing the knowledge that their actions piss someone off?Palantas

[QUOTE="th3warr1or"][QUOTE="RAGINGxPONY"]

Can't blame Terry Jones thats just dumb! I don't care if he burned the Quaran, muslims need to get over it, like really lets kill 7 people who have nothing to do with this, because were mad someone burned a book we really care about. A bunch of immature babies whoever protested and caused the deaths of these people.

lightleggy

yeah, but...you could burn a bible in front of an extremist Christian and you wouldnt have to fear for your life. Just sayin'....

[QUOTE="lightleggy"][QUOTE="th3warr1or"] He didn't have to burn it. Everyone knows that those people are like that, there was no point to prove. mrbojangles25

yeah, but...you could burn a bible in front of an extremist Christian and you wouldnt have to fear for your life. Just sayin'....

So its fine to kill thousands of people for oil, but not 7 for a religious conviction?

How would they even know? Do they get DirecTV in their caves?

I already explained my analogy, it is very simple actually.

kuraimen

Oh? Where was this? You explained how a person utilizing a machine, the action of which is almost entirely predictable, is the same as a person attempting to influence other people?

Mechanism by which Terry Jones knew the consequences his actions would cause? :lol: I don't understand this, do you expect me to describe the brain mechanisms or what? :P

kuraimen

This depends on how you're using the word "know." Usually "know" implies definitiveness. For example, I know my walls are white, whereas I do not know who will win the Kentucky Derby next year. So how were you using the word "know"?

I know about his motivations because HE HIMSELF IS SAYING THEM. He said what happened proved his point which means his motivation was to prove his point. That his point included killing innocents is what makes is so despicable.

kuraimen

I believe he has some published writings, which could answer the latter two points. I could go hunting for them, but you're the one making these claims, so presumably you have them at hand.

I

I guess I should have added to that, "And would you please link them for the c|ass?" I'm not saying this is the case here, but a large number of the "facts" people post here turn out, upon scrutiny, to be entirely made up. So forgive me if I don't just take your word for it.

[quote="I"]

Also, is it your position then that acts of Muslim violence in modern times were all cause by someone doing something just to piss them off?

kuraimen

Now you're using strawmans... I never said "that acts of Muslim violence in modern times were all cause by someone doing something just to piss them off". I'm saying this one was.

Describe how I can be using a strawman when I'm asking a question. Don't use terms if you don't know what they mean.

[quote="I"]

Why does it matter if someone is doing something for the sole purpose of pissing someone off, versus doing something for an array of purposes, while also possessing the knowledge that their actions piss someone off?

kuraimen

Well because it matters, motivations for doing things matter. That's life I guess.

Hmm, that's a good explanation. You're really on top of things today. Now, why don't you try answering my question with an argument that's not entirely circular.

Source 1

According to Times, "The first thing that you need to know about the massacre of 12 people that took place in Afghanistan today is that Mazar-e-Sharif is not a particularly radical town. It is not Pashtun, it is not Taliban."

The dead included at least seven United Nations workers — four Nepalese guards and three Europeans from Romania, Sweden and Norway — according to United Nations officials in New York. One was a woman. Early reports, later denied by Afghan officials, said that at least two of the dead had been beheaded. Five Afghans were also killed.

Wow.. F*** you Terry Jones. At least 12 people who weren't even related to him died for nothing.

th3warr1or

You are putting the blame on Terry Jones? Is this some kind of a joke?

Its his fault that these prehistoric minded people and savages go crazy because some man burned a text? Really? How instead of focusing on a man who can do whatever he wants in US, we focus on these savage and simple minded human beings who rely on violence to get things done? Why must we shy away from doing things just because some other people threaten us if we do it?Shouldnt we bring justice to the people who commit the violence? What the hell did we learn from the civil rights movement in the 1950s and 60s for the African Americans? Did we learn anything? Justice should be done to those who commit the crime. Terry Jones is a fanatical fool but did not commit such crime.

You are putting the blame on Terry Jones? Is this some kind of a joke?

RadecSupreme

Read the last several pages. It is the opinion of certain persons on this forum that if you perform an act that is entirely legal in your country, but that might upset radicals in other countries, you are morally accountable for any damages they cause.

So its fine to kill thousands of people for oil, but not 7 for a religious conviction?

tenaka2

Gee. A bunch of butt-hurt muslims taking out their rage on innocent people.

Officer Barbrady says: Move along people. Nothing to see here.

Here are a few quotes from the NY Times article that I found particularly of interest, in regards to who is to blame here.

"Stirred up by three angry mullahs who urged them to avenge the burning of a Koran...."

Perhaps if their so-called leaders had urged them to follow the supposedly peaceful teachings of Islam, no one would have been murdered

"Unable to find Americans on whom to vent their anger, the mob turned instead on the next-best symbol of Western intrusion —..."

Apparently they did not really care who they killed as long as they got their revenge

"The year before, a one-paragraph item in Newsweek alleging that guards at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, had flushed a Koran down the toilet set off three days of riots that left 14 people dead in Afghanistan...."

I wonder if any of you would like to come in here and tell us how Newseek is responsible for these 14 deaths. Especially considering that the story turned out to be false. Newsweek just couldn't take the time to verify it, they were in such a hurry to publish anything that made Bush look bad.

"Last year, even though Mr. Jones called off his burning of the Koran, a subsequent wave of protests at NATO facilities in Afghanistan led to at least five deaths."

Touchy little buggers, aren't they

To those of you on here blaming the luny pastor in Florida: What if a radical group sprung up in the US that, every time a bunch of people in the mid-east burn an American flag, they would riot and drag a few muslims out of their mosques and kill them. Would you blame the rioters in the mid-east for burning the flag?

I know I wouldn't. I would blame the murderous criminals that did the killing. Just like I blame the murderous criminals in Afghanistan, not some goofy pastor.

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

So its fine to kill thousands of people for oil, but not 7 for a religious conviction?

RadecSupreme

[QUOTE="RadecSupreme"]

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

So its fine to kill thousands of people for oil, but not 7 for a religious conviction?

tenaka2

100'000 people are killed so people can run SUV's slightly cheaper and everyone is cool with it.

tenaka2

If that's the case, then the operation to kill those people was a dismall failure. My last fillup ran around $3.50 a gallon. As to your main point, this did occur to me earlier, that I tend to think of civilians dying in war as an unavoidable misfortune, whereas I'm very quick to criticize these people. In both cases, people were killed who have nothing to do with the actual conflict. I'll have to think on this.

since so many people are dying, U.S. should just capture and execute terry jones to prevent further loss of life.

Harisemo

since so many people are dying, U.S. should just capture and execute terry jones to prevent further loss of life.

Harisemo

This is the same kind of logic that leads to "lets make women cover themselves from head to foot so they don't provoke the rapists in our midst."

Terry Jones is not to blame for the deaths-- the deranged nutjobs who murdered innocent people are responsible for the deaths. Even in the midst of being disrespected, there is no justification in the islamic faith to commit murder; although I doubt that these news casters will listen. Let's just blame Islam and call it a day. :roll:

[QUOTE="Harisemo"]

since so many people are dying, U.S. should just capture and execute terry jones to prevent further loss of life.

RadecSupreme

[QUOTE="Harisemo"]

since so many people are dying, U.S. should just capture and execute terry jones to prevent further loss of life.

collegeboy64

This is the same kind of logic that leads to "lets make women cover themselves from head to foot so they don't provoke the rapists in our midst."

whats wrong with that logic?

[QUOTE="RAGINGxPONY"]

Can't blame Terry Jones thats just dumb! I don't care if he burned the Quaran, muslims need to get over it, like really lets kill 7 people who have nothing to do with this, because were mad someone burned a book we really care about. A bunch of immature babies whoever protested and caused the deaths of these people.

th3warr1or

[QUOTE="RadecSupreme"]

[QUOTE="Harisemo"]

since so many people are dying, U.S. should just capture and execute terry jones to prevent further loss of life.

Harisemo

It doesnt matter. It doesnt justify the death of anyone. Those Muslims deserved to be killed.

i wish i could kill a bunch of people and blame someone 10,000 miles away, and have people actually believe me and defend my absurd stance. surrealnumber5

[QUOTE="surrealnumber5"]i wish i could kill a bunch of people and blame someone 10,000 miles away, and have people actually believe me and defend my absurd stance. tenaka2

Terry Jones is a horrible man for knowingly provoking terrorists, but the ones responsible for the killing are the killers. Still, Jones is not without blame.Theokhoth

You really think they wouldn't have killed people anyway?

[QUOTE="surrealnumber5"]i wish i could kill a bunch of people and blame someone 10,000 miles away, and have people actually believe me and defend my absurd stance. tenaka2

One burned a book, another killed people

Equal?

[QUOTE="Harisemo"]

[QUOTE="RadecSupreme"]Why? Cause he burned a pointless book? They should capture and execute the muslims who killed the innocent people.

RadecSupreme

It doesnt matter. It doesnt justify the death of anyone. Those Muslims deserved to be killed.

[QUOTE="surrealnumber5"]i wish i could kill a bunch of people and blame someone 10,000 miles away, and have people actually believe me and defend my absurd stance. tenaka2

He isnt equally as bad at all. He didnt commit any crime. Do you not comprehend this?

[QUOTE="tenaka2"][QUOTE="surrealnumber5"]i wish i could kill a bunch of people and blame someone 10,000 miles away, and have people actually believe me and defend my absurd stance. DroidPhysX

One burned a book, another killed people

Equal?

[QUOTE="RadecSupreme"]

[QUOTE="Harisemo"]not a pointless book for muslims.

tenaka2

It doesnt matter. It doesnt justify the death of anyone. Those Muslims deserved to be killed.

Who started the conflict tell me? Who committed 9/11? Who started the invasion of Kuwait? And I am not talking about who has killed more militants, I am talking about who has killed more innocent people. I think we know that answer.

It doesnt matter. It doesnt justify the death of anyone. Those Muslims deserved to be killed.

RadecSupreme

muslims did that in reaction. now terry jones, who lit the fire which lead to the awful reaction, should be sacrificed to save lives of other innocent people.

That region must be in a really pitiful state if burning one of their holy books ten thousand miles away gets them riled up like that.

Heck, my country's pretty anally retentive about anything anti-Islam and the worst thing we generally do to people our religious leaders dislike is imprison them in the name of national security.

[QUOTE="RadecSupreme"]

It doesnt matter. It doesnt justify the death of anyone. Those Muslims deserved to be killed.

Harisemo

muslims did that in reaction. now terry jones, who lit the fire which lead to the awful reaction, should be sacrificed to save lives of other innocent people.

I dont think it helped them shed the 'violent' tag that is placed on them.

[QUOTE="RadecSupreme"]

It doesnt matter. It doesnt justify the death of anyone. Those Muslims deserved to be killed.

Harisemo

muslims did that in reaction. now terry jones, who lit the fire which lead to the awful reaction, should be sacrificed to save lives of other innocent people.

Should African Americans have stopped their civil rights movement simply because racist people threatened to lynch and kill them? I have not found any logic in any of your posts.