Are People Born G@Y?

[QUOTE="scorch-62"][QUOTE="cobrax55"]If you want absolute proof that its not a choice, its actually pretty easy to show. There are numerous "predictors" for homosexuality, particularly in men. For example, for each older male sibling you have, the chance of you being gay goes up 20%. your also more likely to be gay if you are left handed, or have a twin. All these are related, because they are all related to very early fetal development.cobrax55

Of course its not absolute, rarely in science is anything absolute. Its a cooralation, meaning that one is somehow related to the other. Its not clear why, but having male children changes the ratio of chemicals in the womb in further births. Which apprently can in certain cirmustances effect handiness as well.

The way its thought to work, is that Homosexuality is caused by to much andogen (which is the "male" hormone). Which actually is thought to be why gay men statisticlly have larger penisis and different finger length ratios (which are also controle by andogen)

They have been able to turn animals gay by altering teh amount of chemicals at very precise stages of development, which is how they are fairly certain its true.

Lady Gaga explains it better in "Born This Way."

[QUOTE="cobrax55"]you misunderstand. the "absolute proof" is that homosexuality is not a choice, not that you can predict it. what exists is a cooralation, since for example you are more likely to be gay if you are left handed, homosexuality can not possibly be a choice unless being left handed somehow makes you more likely to choose to be gay.scorch-62

what did you do....google the word coralation and suddely think you understood what it means?

Funny thing is that you misunderstood that to:"shark attacks are more likely when ice cream is sold." is exacly what a coralation shows. What it doesnt show is is that "shark attacks are more likely to occur AS A RESULT OF more ice cream being sold"

The relationship between between say homosexuality and left handedness is a cooralation. It means that if you are left handed, you are statisticlly more likely to be gay then if you are right handed. It doesnt at all mean that being gay is caused by being left handed. Only that the two are related by another process.

What it does mean, is that homosexuality can not possibly be a choice, unless you can somehow explain how the two could be related.

People are born with set attractions. I would say that it would only be a choice at the lowest levels of the subconscious, based on your attraction to each sex. If you're more attracted to the opposite sex, then you're obviously going to come to the realization that you must be straight.

Assuming people choose their orientation would also assume that attractions are not set in stone and that people could flip-flop at any time.

The cause of homosexuality is pretty well established by the scientific community. Its not genetics or choice. Numerous studies have shown that the brains of gay men are more likely to be structured like women's (the reverse is true for lesbians). This is due to improper hormone balance in very early fetal development. Its not absolutly clear what causes this.

If you want absolute proof that its not a choice, its actually pretty easy to show. There are numerous "predictors" for homosexuality, particularly in men. For example, for each older male sibling you have, the chance of you being gay goes up 20%. your also more likely to be gay if you are left handed, or have a twin. All these are related, because they are all related to very early fetal development.

cobrax55

I think that the gay is a choice

It's a choice.Plain and simple.

It's a choice.Plain and simple.

Promised_Trini

It's a choice.Plain and simple.

[QUOTE="Vighneshvara"][QUOTE="Promised_Trini"]

It's a choice.Plain and simple.

CreasianDevaili

What you're saying is like saying that in the scenario that I got hit by a truck on my way to buy cigarettes, it was my choice to get hit by the truck because I chose to go and buy cigarettes.

It's a choice.Plain and simple.

[QUOTE="CreasianDevaili"][QUOTE="Vighneshvara"] Do you have anything to back this up? I'd like to see how it's so "plain and simple."Teenaged

What you're saying is like saying that in the scenario that I got hit by a truck on my way to buy cigarettes, it was my choice to get hit by the truck because I chose to go and buy cigarettes.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="CreasianDevaili"] Two people mate, their genetics made a routine based on properties we do not know, and their decision to boink made frezno the freash. Or your mama played black sabbath backwards in your crib and taped a picture of the sex to fear above you. Both were choices. Our lack of understanding does not remove that. CreasianDevaili

What you're saying is like saying that in the scenario that I got hit by a truck on my way to buy cigarettes, it was my choice to get hit by the truck because I chose to go and buy cigarettes.

I am not stupid. I just dont try my hardest to be a smartass on-line.

[QUOTE="CreasianDevaili"][QUOTE="Vighneshvara"] Do you have anything to back this up? I'd like to see how it's so "plain and simple."Vighneshvara

[QUOTE="Vighneshvara"][QUOTE="CreasianDevaili"] Two people mate, their genetics made a routine based on properties we do not know, and their decision to boink made frezno the freash. Or your mama played black sabbath backwards in your crib and taped a picture of the sex to fear above you. Both were choices. Our lack of understanding does not remove that. CreasianDevaili

Personally I think its a genetic trait having watched somebody close to me all my life who as long as I can remember exhibited some feminine tendencies, even so I still didn't really understand the difference between how a straight person and a gay persons mind worked until Stephen Fry put it in a nut shell for me. It definitely isn't something that you can choose, its like any attraction completely out of your control.

[QUOTE="CreasianDevaili"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]If you're serious then you're dumber than I ever thought. And I thought that was very hard to beat.

What you're saying is like saying that in the scenario that I got hit by a truck on my way to buy cigarettes, it was my choice to get hit by the truck because I chose to go and buy cigarettes.

I am not stupid. I just dont try my hardest to be a smartass on-line.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="CreasianDevaili"] Well considering that people do not generally get hit buying cigarettes I'd say it was your fault, the drivers fault, or both. What kind of fairy tale world do you live in where you can ignore cause and effect like that? People do not choose to be in accidents but that does not mean that it wasn't caused by the choice of someone. If parents knew the genome then they could not only choose partners to get the kind of kid they want but also medically change things chemically. You think genetics are not a routine? That it is just all random? What, are you straight up stupid?CreasianDevaili

I am not stupid. I just dont try my hardest to be a smartass on-line.

Why do you think some couples pay thousands upon thousands to have their genetics screened based on what we have markers for? Because they want to PREVENT syndromes or conditions based on their combination. If many in this debate feign to nature, and nature is genetics, then how am I not in context?

Do I really have to have a point to counter what you say when your point is void of substance?

The dichotomy between choice and nature refers to the person that is homosexual. Talking about choices people other than that homosexual made is 100% misleading argumentation.

So which is it? Are you genuinely dumb or are you trolling?

[QUOTE="CreasianDevaili"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]I am pretty sure you know the context of the debate and that it has little to do with that kind of "extreme" determinism.

I am not stupid. I just dont try my hardest to be a smartass on-line.

Why do you think some couples pay thousands upon thousands to have their genetics screened based on what we have markers for? Because they want to PREVENT syndromes or conditions based on their combination. If many in this debate feign to nature, and nature is genetics, then how am I not in context?

The dichotomy between choice and nature refers to the person that is homosexual. Talking about choices people other than that homosexual made is 100% misleading argumentation.

So which is it? Are you genuinely dumb or are you trolling?

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="CreasianDevaili"] You try and act like I ever cared about your feelings or respect along with insulting my intelligence. Then you call me a smartass in the next reply. Do you have a point here or are you just trying to argue for the sake of it? Many in this thread have passed the ball to nature as to why they are homosexual, or one is homosexual. Genetics is nature.

Why do you think some couples pay thousands upon thousands to have their genetics screened based on what we have markers for? Because they want to PREVENT syndromes or conditions based on their combination. If many in this debate feign to nature, and nature is genetics, then how am I not in context? CreasianDevaili

The dichotomy between choice and nature refers to the person that is homosexual. Talking about choices people other than that homosexual made is 100% misleading argumentation.

So which is it? Are you genuinely dumb or are you trolling?

I could be a masochist. I have no problem with it. Although in the past I have mentioned I am "allergic" to stupidity. So that may be a factor here as well.

Now if you dont want to consider what I told you and prefer to stick to pointing out why I am dumb because your argument holds no water, that is fine by me. I made my point (both in regards to your person and your ..."argument").

[QUOTE="CreasianDevaili"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]Do I really have to have a point to counter what you say when your point is void of substance?

The dichotomy between choice and nature refers to the person that is homosexual. Talking about choices people other than that homosexual made is 100% misleading argumentation.

So which is it? Are you genuinely dumb or are you trolling?

I could be a masochist. I have no problem with it. Although in the past I have mentioned I am "allergic" to stupidity. So that may be a factor here as well.

Now if you dont want to consider what I told you and prefer to stick to pointing out why I am dumb because your argument holds no water, that is fine by me. I made my point (both in regards to your person and your ..."argument").

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="CreasianDevaili"] Oooh I see. So you counter argued against a "100% misleading argumentation", and now ask if I am genuinely dumb or trolling. If I say trolling wouldn't that mean you are the genuinely dumb one for falling for it? If i say genuinely dumb, then you are also genuinely dumb for ever trying to argue against something genuinely dumb as well? Which means you are a dumbass either way. We could of avoided this if you didn't get excited and jump to insults right away. On topic.. choice!CreasianDevaili

I could be a masochist. I have no problem with it. Although in the past I have mentioned I am "allergic" to stupidity. So that may be a factor here as well.

Now if you dont want to consider what I told you and prefer to stick to pointing out why I am dumb because your argument holds no water, that is fine by me. I made my point (both in regards to your person and your ..."argument").

Also I never pointed out why you're dumb. I was reminding you that you were insulting yourself in order to try and find a way to insult me. Looking out for you man.

Other angle? What are you talking about?

My approach was clear. First I called you dumb because your argument was dumb. Then I gave you the benefit of the doubt by implying you are trolling and finally I outlined why your argument fails. I see no different angles. I apologise if I somehow confused you. I didnt feel the need to dumb down my posts, although I did bold the key points of my counter-point.

You think I had to actually find a way to insult you? Think about it...

Two people mate, their genetics made a routine based on properties we do not know, and their decision to boink made frezno the freash. Or your mama played black sabbath backwards in your crib and taped a picture of the sex to fear above you. Both were choices. Our lack of understanding does not remove that. CreasianDevaili

What you're saying is like saying that in the scenario that I got hit by a truck on my way to buy cigarettes, it was my choice to get hit by the truck because I chose to go and buy cigarettes.

To further what I said on genetics and homosexuality being weighted against a choice, I think there is a definitive answer coming soon. It may indeed take decades but if they do mostly complete the genetic markers for sexuality then it opens up a distinct choice for all to see. While right now parents really only have to make the choice to mate with someone else they may be able to actively groom their offspring with the markers known. I believe rats were mentioned to of been chemically groomed to be homosexual. I think the entirety of "choice" and what it entails will be more than society bargained for. Be it for or against any particular sexuality. CreasianDevaili

To further what I said on genetics and homosexuality being weighted against a choice, I think there is a definitive answer coming soon. It may indeed take decades but if they do mostly complete the genetic markers for sexuality then it opens up a distinct choice for all to see. While right now parents really only have to make the choice to mate with someone else they may be able to actively groom their offspring with the markers known. I believe rats were mentioned to of been chemically groomed to be homosexual. I think the entirety of "choice" and what it entails will be more than society bargained for. Be it for or against any particular sexuality. CreasianDevaili

To see the possibility of a choice in a deterministic frame, beyond the control of the person who is a homosexual, requires considering intention and simple things such as who chooses and for whom. Not just knowing that determinism is all about cause and effect.

It is rather simplistic and misleading to jumble two loosely related points merely because they refer to some common basic notions (homosexuality and choices in this case) without considering important specific points. Otherwise a debate that is riddled with just that, will be like watching two hearing-impaired people trying to have a conversation.

I can't believe this stupid topic is still going onSandulf29

[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"][QUOTE="CreasianDevaili"] Well considering that people do not generally get hit buying cigarettes I'd say it was your fault, the drivers fault, or both. What kind of fairy tale world do you live in where you can ignore cause and effect like that? People do not choose to be in accidents but that does not mean that it wasn't caused by the choice of someone. If parents knew the genome then they could not only choose partners to get the kind of kid they want but also medically change things chemically. You think genetics are not a routine? That it is just all random? What, are you straight up stupid?CreasianDevaili

[QUOTE="CreasianDevaili"][QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"] I think we've already established that your ability to determine causality is impaired. Beyond that, your argument is moving from the realm of merely witless, into that of "asinine". By the way, "Medically change things chemically," is a lauhgably clumsy turn of phrase that reveals your general 'level'. Do us all a favor and slink away before someone bothers to really dissect your arguments, which are a mixture of blind stupidty and fallacies. Por ejemple... your sophomoric treatment of "choice" when dealing with unknown and unknowable variables is absurd. Now, if someone decides to cross a busy freeway to get their cigarettes, and is hit by a truck you could make a case that they took a certain risk... a choice... with a predictable outcome. That we could all be hit by a car and every time we take to the roads we run that risk, is not a choice that is generally made on an individual basis. Going to buy cigarettes doesn't represent a SIGNIFICANT choice which leads to the "hit by truck" outcome... and to focus on the element of choice is largely semantic and (see previous) asinine. Further, your treatment of genetics is childish, failing to understand the notion of a predisposition mated to environmental factors. Mind you, those factors are rarely so simple that you can reduce them to your idiot, "Medically change things chemically," or gross influences that a parent can provide. If matters were that simple genetics and related fields would not be so complex; your view is not unlike that of someone expecting that simply mapping the human genome would provide all of the informatoion needed to alter it. Genes often act in concert, and can be multi-functional in that the proteins they code play more than one role. What you present as some logical fait accompli about choice is a mixture of pure ignorance and a genuinely mindless argument about choice that wouldn't fly in a Philosophy 101 class.Frame_Dragger

[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"][QUOTE="CreasianDevaili"] I think I got it from watching a Star Trek DS9 episode about Bashir being genetically groomed. Don't get too bent out of shape I just do folding for stanford.CreasianDevaili

[QUOTE="CreasianDevaili"][QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"] Translation: You have no substantive arguments that are not a tissue of crap, and now appeal to your own dubious authority. I'm guessing that you fold sheets at stanford, because if you've ever been in a lab I'll be horrified. That said, your cockeyed optimism does sound a bit like a poorly worded grant proposal, so maybe you're just the low man on the totem. :DFrame_Dragger

I believe it is part genetics, and part upbringing and life experiences. It's certainly not a conscious choice or something that can be "corrected", though.

black_cat19

this. and certainly not just one gay gene that defines the outcome.

[QUOTE="Frame_Dragger"][QUOTE="CreasianDevaili"] You are way too easily satisfied. CreasianDevaili

[QUOTE="scorch-62"][QUOTE="cobrax55"]you misunderstand. the "absolute proof" is that homosexuality is not a choice, not that you can predict it. what exists is a cooralation, since for example you are more likely to be gay if you are left handed, homosexuality can not possibly be a choice unless being left handed somehow makes you more likely to choose to be gay.cobrax55

what did you do....google the word coralation and suddely think you understood what it means?

Funny thing is that you misunderstood that to:"shark attacks are more likely when ice cream is sold." is exacly what a coralation shows. What it doesnt show is is that "shark attacks are more likely to occur AS A RESULT OF more ice cream being sold"

The relationship between between say homosexuality and left handedness is a cooralation. It means that if you are left handed, you are statisticlly more likely to be gay then if you are right handed. It doesnt at all mean that being gay is caused by being left handed. Only that the two are related by another process.

What it does mean, is that homosexuality can not possibly be a choice, unless you can somehow explain how the two could be related.

[QUOTE="Lonelynight"][QUOTE="scorch-62"] So basically everything you just said is the equivalent of "shark attacks are more likely when ice cream is sold." Gotcha.scorch-62

[QUOTE="scorch-62"][QUOTE="Lonelynight"] Seriously?sonicare

hmmm I chose other reasoning. I believe we are not digging deep enough to answer the question. When you say that you are born gay well I view it as the same as being born with a corrupt human nature, where being gay is just one way of many many ways the corrupt human nature erupts from us. Everyone has a corrupt human nature including me and some are more prone to give in to certain aspects of their corrupt human nature while other people give in to other aspects of their corrupt human nature. So some people have a tendency to have relations with other men while others do not. As for it being a choice, well, everyone has the choice not to give in to a corrupt human nature, people with a temptation to lie or cheat has the choice to repress those things and not do them, just as a person who has a tendency to be gay can repress it and not give in to a corrupt human nature. That's how I tackle the debate of homosexuality.GameGuy642003

Brilliant!

[QUOTE="GameGuy642003"]hmmm I chose other reasoning. I believe we are not digging deep enough to answer the question. When you say that you are born gay well I view it as the same as being born with a corrupt human nature, where being gay is just one way of many many ways the corrupt human nature erupts from us. Everyone has a corrupt human nature including me and some are more prone to give in to certain aspects of their corrupt human nature while other people give in to other aspects of their corrupt human nature. So some people have a tendency to have relations with other men while others do not. As for it being a choice, well, everyone has the choice not to give in to a corrupt human nature, people with a temptation to lie or cheat has the choice to repress those things and not do them, just as a person who has a tendency to be gay can repress it and not give in to a corrupt human nature. That's how I tackle the debate of homosexuality.Teenaged

Brilliant!

Ya well my argument is not perfect obviously. Well, the reason why I compare gay sex to lying and cheating is because I view these actions under the same umbrella that is a corrupt human nature, i put them in the same catagory if you will.

[QUOTE="Nonstop-Madness"]Nature and Nurture. Your not born gay but that doesn't mean you make a conscious decision to be gay ........ I think it happens for a number of reason both internally and externally. All I can say is that we are all built with hardware to have children so that must be the "proper" way. thegerg