Are you religious? Let's discuss..

[QUOTE="Necrifer"]

You can only be Christian, Muslim, Agnostic or Atheist? Do other religions not exist?

ferrari2001

Ummmm...Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism ring a bell? Those religions alone make up more than 1.5 billion people, and Hinduism is the third largest religion in the world.

I'm religious...proud Catholic to be exact.

christian but i dont practice it. im more for my self. i know my moral values and what is right and what is wrong.

No way I believe in god. For those of you that do; do you really believe everything in the bible?Stanley09

does it matter if we do or not? just saying...

[QUOTE="escapeoftheape"][QUOTE="Stanley09"]No way I believe in god. For those of you that do; do you really believe everything in the bible?MrBlazing_S

I've always thought of this. The only 'true' Christians if you will are those who follows God's word, and since the Bible is God's word which is full of homophobia, the killing of those who oppose Him and the commandment to live every single second as God intended you to, the only 'true' Christians are extremists. And if all Christians don't do these things, aren't they going against God's word, therefore being unloyal to Him?

the bible doesnt tell you to go and kill the people who does not follow God where you got that from?

and extremist takes the bible way to far in what God wants them to do and thus they are committing a sin for doing it.

idk maybe cuz im Evangelical, but i know what we do is pass the word along and hope that people will follow God and we try to help them. but its up to you to do it, no on eis forcing you. God is not forcing you.

you pick the path you want to take and you and you deal with the out come good or bad for picking the path you want to go with.

I am not religous, I am Spiritual, and that Spirituality reveals itself through Faith.

daleerin24

careful cuz with that kind of power you can cut rocks in half :). my boss is the same and a long time ago he took classes in marshal arts ( forgive the spelling) and he showed me first had how you foucs you phyike and spirit energy to your hand and then you can cut a rock in half it was crazy

[QUOTE="Stanley09"]No way I believe in god. For those of you that do; do you really believe everything in the bible?escapeoftheape

What many people do not seem to realize is that Jesus Christ over-wrote many of the OT laws when he gave the Sermon on the Mount in the NT.

Yes I am a Christian.

[QUOTE="escapeoftheape"][QUOTE="Stanley09"]No way I believe in god. For those of you that do; do you really believe everything in the bible?GTbiking4life

What many people do not seem to realize is that Jesus Christ over-wrote many of the OT laws when he gave the Sermon on the Mount in the NT.

Yes I am a Christian.

According to one interpretation. One could also look at such an explanation as a convienent excuse, as soon as there's a contradiction in Biblical scripture there's an attempt made to rectify it with a new explanation. However, if the Bible is the word of god why was there a contradiction in the first place and why wasn't the explanation included in the Bible itself?

im muslim.

[QUOTE="escapeoftheape"][QUOTE="Stanley09"]No way I believe in god. For those of you that do; do you really believe everything in the bible?GTbiking4life

What many people do not seem to realize is that Jesus Christ over-wrote many of the OT laws when he gave the Sermon on the Mount in the NT.

Yes I am a Christian.

[QUOTE="GTbiking4life"]

[QUOTE="escapeoftheape"] from my experience, christians have a tendency to look away from the "bad" part of the bible.. namely the old testament. what many of them dont seem to realize, though, was that both of them contain Gods words. so, if you think the old testament is horrible.. then well, that means you think god is horrible.theone86

What many people do not seem to realize is that Jesus Christ over-wrote many of the OT laws when he gave the Sermon on the Mount in the NT.

Yes I am a Christian.

According to one interpretation. One could also look at such an explanation as a convienent excuse, as soon as there's a contradiction in Biblical scripture there's an attempt made to rectify it with a new explanation. However, if the Bible is the word of god why was there a contradiction in the first place and why wasn't the explanation included in the Bible itself?

I don't know what your interpretation is but it all seems clear to me and I have read the Bible and studied it multiple times over a span of 20 years.

[QUOTE="GTbiking4life"]

[QUOTE="escapeoftheape"] from my experience, christians have a tendency to look away from the "bad" part of the bible.. namely the old testament. what many of them dont seem to realize, though, was that both of them contain Gods words. so, if you think the old testament is horrible.. then well, that means you think god is horrible.ferrari2001

What many people do not seem to realize is that Jesus Christ over-wrote many of the OT laws when he gave the Sermon on the Mount in the NT.

Yes I am a Christian.

Actually you need to read the Sermon on the Mount.

[QUOTE="ferrari2001"][QUOTE="GTbiking4life"]

What many people do not seem to realize is that Jesus Christ over-wrote many of the OT laws when he gave the Sermon on the Mount in the NT.

Yes I am a Christian.

GTbiking4life

Actually you need to read the Sermon on the Mount.

[QUOTE="GTbiking4life"]

[QUOTE="ferrari2001"] No Christ said "I have not come to over ride the old law but rather to fulfill it." What people actually fail to realize is that many parts of the old testament laws are interpretations made by the priests and prophets of the time. The Jewish laws that in Jesus' time were out of control. Because the OT is suppose to be a foreshadow to Christ, it shows how the Jewish people acted and interpreted the laws inappropriately. Very few laws besides the 10 commandments and few words of the prophets were actually given by God in the bible. Most of the laws and regulations we see in the OT were set up via human institution. ferrari2001

Actually you need to read the Sermon on the Mount.

That's not the entire thing :?

[QUOTE="ferrari2001"][QUOTE="GTbiking4life"]

Actually you need to read the Sermon on the Mount.

GTbiking4life

That's not the entire thing :?

However it's good to note, the Pharisees were the ones who "followed the laws to the greatest regard. They followed the human instituionalized laws, not given by God. Jesus never abolishes the laws the God provided, nor does he acknowledge the laws of the Pharisees which were not even laws to begin with. The beatitudes are meant to be a clearer expansion of His laws and commands.

[QUOTE="GTbiking4life"]

[QUOTE="ferrari2001"] Yes the sermon on the mount from Mt 5: 17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."ferrari2001

That's not the entire thing :?

However it's good to note, the Pharisees were the ones who "followed the laws to the greatest regard. They followed the human instituionalized laws, not given by God. Jesus never abolishes the laws the God provided, nor does he acknowledge the laws of the Pharisees which were not even laws to begin with. The beatitudes are meant to be a clearer expansion of His laws and commands.

Mathew 5: 43 -Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy (Law of Moses)

Mathew 5:44 -But I say unto you, Loveyour enemies,blessthem thatcurseyou, do goodto them that hateyou, and prayfor them which despitefully use you, and persecuteyou; (The New Law)

There are many throughout the 5th, 6th, and 7th chapters of Mathew. This is where Jesus Christ over wrote many of these laws in the OT.

In the Law of Moses, it has been said an Eye for Eye, Tooth for a Tooth. The Law of Moses or the Mosaic Law as it is sometimes called had people hating others. Jesus Christ did away with this by teaching Love and compassion.

This is just one example of what Jesus Christ preached on the Sermon on the Mount.

I think at our core a lot of us are religious in some way or another. To question our own existence is common and to me that is being somewhat religious since there was a beginning. However the end is where everything gets confusing. Douglas Adams wrote:

"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."

I agree with that sentiment completely. We know what we are but from where we came and to where we are going is a big mystery.

[QUOTE="ferrari2001"]

[QUOTE="GTbiking4life"]

That's not the entire thing :?

GTbiking4life

However it's good to note, the Pharisees were the ones who "followed the laws to the greatest regard. They followed the human instituionalized laws, not given by God. Jesus never abolishes the laws the God provided, nor does he acknowledge the laws of the Pharisees which were not even laws to begin with. The beatitudes are meant to be a clearer expansion of His laws and commands.

Mathew 5: 43 -Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy (Law of Moses)

Mathew 5:44 -But I say unto you, Loveyour enemies,blessthem thatcurseyou, do goodto them that hateyou, and prayfor them which despitefully use you, and persecuteyou; (The New Law)

There are many throughout the 5th, 6th, and 7th chapters of Mathew. This is where Jesus Christ over wrote many of these laws in the OT.

In the Law of Moses, it has been said an Eye for Eye, Tooth for a Tooth. The Law of Moses or the Mosaic Law as it is sometimes called had people hating others. Jesus Christ did away with this by teaching Love and compassion.

This is just one example of what Jesus Christ preached on the Sermon on the Mount.

"Hate thine enemy" in that verse (must we use the KJV? :P) does not have any footnotes in any Bibles, because it doesn't come from the Hebrew Bible; he's saying that humans have said as much, and they're out to lunch.

[QUOTE="GTbiking4life"]

[QUOTE="ferrari2001"] "Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

However it's good to note, the Pharisees were the ones who "followed the laws to the greatest regard. They followed the human instituionalized laws, not given by God. Jesus never abolishes the laws the God provided, nor does he acknowledge the laws of the Pharisees which were not even laws to begin with. The beatitudes are meant to be a clearer expansion of His laws and commands.

GabuEx

Mathew 5: 43 -Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy (Law of Moses)

Mathew 5:44 -But I say unto you, Loveyour enemies,blessthem thatcurseyou, do goodto them that hateyou, and prayfor them which despitefully use you, and persecuteyou; (The New Law)

There are many throughout the 5th, 6th, and 7th chapters of Mathew. This is where Jesus Christ over wrote many of these laws in the OT.

In the Law of Moses, it has been said an Eye for Eye, Tooth for a Tooth. The Law of Moses or the Mosaic Law as it is sometimes called had people hating others. Jesus Christ did away with this by teaching Love and compassion.

This is just one example of what Jesus Christ preached on the Sermon on the Mount.

"Hate thine enemy" in that verse (must we use the KJV? :P) does not have any footnotes in any Bibles, because it doesn't come from the Hebrew Bible; he's saying that humans have said as much, and they're out to lunch.

He was referring to the Law of Moses. Jesus then stated what we should now be doing. The Law of Moses was given way back in one of the books of Moses, but it's late and don't have time to look that up. Is this the KJV (I can never remember :(

[QUOTE="ferrari2001"]

[QUOTE="GTbiking4life"]

That's not the entire thing :?

GTbiking4life

However it's good to note, the Pharisees were the ones who "followed the laws to the greatest regard. They followed the human instituionalized laws, not given by God. Jesus never abolishes the laws the God provided, nor does he acknowledge the laws of the Pharisees which were not even laws to begin with. The beatitudes are meant to be a clearer expansion of His laws and commands.

Mathew 5: 43 -Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy (Law of Moses)

Mathew 5:44 -But I say unto you, Loveyour enemies,blessthem thatcurseyou, do goodto them that hateyou, and prayfor them which despitefully use you, and persecuteyou; (The New Law)

There are many throughout the 5th, 6th, and 7th chapters of Mathew. This is where Jesus Christ over wrote many of these laws in the OT.

In the Law of Moses, it has been said an Eye for Eye, Tooth for a Tooth. The Law of Moses or the Mosaic Law as it is sometimes called had people hating others. Jesus Christ did away with this by teaching Love and compassion.

This is just one example of what Jesus Christ preached on the Sermon on the Mount.

I don't like to practice religions. I still have faith in God though.

[QUOTE="GTbiking4life"]

[QUOTE="ferrari2001"] "Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

However it's good to note, the Pharisees were the ones who "followed the laws to the greatest regard. They followed the human instituionalized laws, not given by God. Jesus never abolishes the laws the God provided, nor does he acknowledge the laws of the Pharisees which were not even laws to begin with. The beatitudes are meant to be a clearer expansion of His laws and commands.

ferrari2001

Mathew 5: 43 -Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy (Law of Moses)

Mathew 5:44 -But I say unto you, Loveyour enemies,blessthem thatcurseyou, do goodto them that hateyou, and prayfor them which despitefully use you, and persecuteyou; (The New Law)

There are many throughout the 5th, 6th, and 7th chapters of Mathew. This is where Jesus Christ over wrote many of these laws in the OT.

In the Law of Moses, it has been said an Eye for Eye, Tooth for a Tooth. The Law of Moses or the Mosaic Law as it is sometimes called had people hating others. Jesus Christ did away with this by teaching Love and compassion.

This is just one example of what Jesus Christ preached on the Sermon on the Mount.

No contradiction at all. You are referring to this I believe.

"Think not that I am come to destroythelaw, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

Fulfil means to bring to an end, finish, or complete, develop the full potential of (making better), to bring to realization. I fail to see the contradiction.

I don't have a religion. Your first post makes some broad generalizations because very few religions require you to believe that God is an old man who sits on a throne. You also objected to following a 2000 year old book and made a reference to Noah's ark, which leads me to believe that your beef is with Christianity-- not all the world religions. The Bible was not written all at once, so it would be incorrect to say that it was written 2000 years ago. Instead, the books that are found in today's Bibles were written over the course of hundreds or thousands of years; and some of the authors lived lifetimes apart.

I do agree with your opinion that Noah's ark is a bunch of bologna. Some have said that the story is merely a parable that's supposed to teach moral lessons, but that is a shaky view to take at best.

[QUOTE="ferrari2001"]

[QUOTE="GTbiking4life"]

Mathew 5: 43 -Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy (Law of Moses)

Mathew 5:44 -But I say unto you, Loveyour enemies,blessthem thatcurseyou, do goodto them that hateyou, and prayfor them which despitefully use you, and persecuteyou; (The New Law)

There are many throughout the 5th, 6th, and 7th chapters of Mathew. This is where Jesus Christ over wrote many of these laws in the OT.

In the Law of Moses, it has been said an Eye for Eye, Tooth for a Tooth. The Law of Moses or the Mosaic Law as it is sometimes called had people hating others. Jesus Christ did away with this by teaching Love and compassion.

This is just one example of what Jesus Christ preached on the Sermon on the Mount.

GTbiking4life

No contradiction at all. You are referring to this I believe.

"Think not that I am come to destroythelaw, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

Fulfil means to bring to an end, finish, or complete, develop the full potential of (making better), to bring to realization. I fail to see the contradiction.

to make full,
to fill up to carry through to the end,
to accomplish, carry out, of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify,
accomplish or to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment.

Christ is not over-riding and old laws but rather teaching them how to obey these laws as they should, because the pharisees were not obeying them correctly but rather incorrectly. As correctly interpreted (ie. not the ways the pharisees did) all of God's old Laws still stand, but you must interpret those laws as Christ clarifies in the sermon on the mount.

[QUOTE="GTbiking4life"]

[QUOTE="ferrari2001"] I believe that, that phrase was more centered towards defining who is thine neighbor. Interestingly enough, hate thy enemy doesn't appear in the Lords Old Testament Law, in fact it says in Leviticus19:18 "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD". Thy neighbor was interpreted as those of the tribe of Israel (almost a literal Neighbor) Those not of the tribe were hated and almost persecuted by the Israelites, in fact Samaritans were considered enemies. Just like in the parable of the good Samaritan Jesus tries to teach that, all peoples are you neighbor, he actually attempts to get that point across many times in scripture. If your interpretation of that passage is correct than Jesus blatantly contradicts himself just a few verses earlier when he clearly says He is not there to abolish the true law.

ferrari2001

No contradiction at all. You are referring to this I believe.

"Think not that I am come to destroythelaw, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

Fulfil means to bring to an end, finish, or complete, develop the full potential of (making better), to bring to realization. I fail to see the contradiction.

to make full,
to fill up to carry through to the end,
to accomplish, carry out, of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify,
accomplish or to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment.

Christ is not over-riding and old laws but rather teaching them how to obey these laws as they should, because the pharisees were not obeying them correctly but rather incorrectly. As correctly interpreted (ie. not the ways the pharisees did) all of God's old Laws still stand, but you must interpret those laws as Christ clarifies in the sermon on the mount.

I still fail to see any contradiction even how you define it.

Either way, it seems we both agree that Jesus Christ is teaching how we should live. This was my point to begin with and is why Christians do not follow the OT laws, but the Law Jesus taught.

[QUOTE="ferrari2001"]

[QUOTE="GTbiking4life"]

No contradiction at all. You are referring to this I believe.

"Think not that I am come to destroythelaw, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

Fulfil means to bring to an end, finish, or complete, develop the full potential of (making better), to bring to realization. I fail to see the contradiction.

GTbiking4life

to make full,
to fill up to carry through to the end,
to accomplish, carry out, of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify,
accomplish or to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment.

Christ is not over-riding and old laws but rather teaching them how to obey these laws as they should, because the pharisees were not obeying them correctly but rather incorrectly. As correctly interpreted (ie. not the ways the pharisees did) all of God's old Laws still stand, but you must interpret those laws as Christ clarifies in the sermon on the mount.

I still fail to see any contradiction even how you define it.

Either way, it seems we both agree that Jesus Christ is teaching how we should live. This was my point to begin with and is why Christians do not follow the OT laws, but the Law Jesus taught.

No, I'm not religious. To assume I am is an insult to my intelligence.

I just do the Jesus lean every sunday

Thiestic evolutionist, meaning I believe in both God and evolution. So Christian I guess I choose.

To an extent. Though, I wouldn't necessarily call myself "religious" considering the ideas I ascribe to within Buddhism aren't necessarily "religious." But, it all depends on what one defines as "religious" in the first place. I'd honestly say anyone who contemplates their existence and the ultimate nature of the universe is in a sense religious.

this feels approriate

Alright, so recently I have gotten quite fed up with religion. Let me start off, I'm personally an Agnostic - I don't believe in a certain religion, but due to the complexity and intelectually of this world, I'm open to the possibility of there being some kind of a higher being. The reason why I've gotten so fed up lately is that I've noticed that several of my friends are in fact religious.

Now, I don't really have a problem with religious people in general, although I do think it is silly for someone to believe in something written in a book which is supposedly 2000 years old. My problem, is when people "religionize" their lives. This is when someone let their religion control their way of being and dictate certain aspects of their lives, such as nutrition (this is the case for many muslims and jews). At each party, my friend has been looking at me and my other friends with envy whenever we have been consuming alcohol. He has told me that he does indeed want to try it, but that he can't because of his religion. Now, I'm not defending alcohol or drugs, but I do think that it is a shame when people are held back from being who they want and doing what they want, because of religion. There are of course people, who are not like this at all. In fact, sometimes, religion can cause people to not care about being a good person - as it gives them the possibillity to just repent after every "sin" they've commited.

In my opinion, everyone was born an atheist/agnostic. You might state that many people "need" religion, but by saying this you basically say that people who don't have a religious inherit some kind of superiority. I don't think non-religious people are more intelligent than religious people, as I believe that 90% of religious people are religious only because their parents taught them to be. Very few people discover religion as a grown up. Basically, I think religion is a false need given to people by their parents (in the vast majority of cases), and being a need (something you couldn't do without) it makes you weaker.

There are of course other aspects of religion as well, many of which I'd describe as being very dark. I went to a christian junior high school myself, so I have witnessed for 3 years of my life what religion can potentially do to people. Religion has worked as a tool of control and segregation since the beginning - it is the reason for tons of wars and an awful lot of blood has been shed in the name of religion. This still happens today, and i honestly cannot conceive of how anyone would willingly associate themselves with something that is the cause of so much despair. Another thing I noticed, going to that school, was that the people there did indeed have a feeling of superiority. I was looked down upon as if I was a bad person, due to the fact that I was not religious.

Then you have the problem related to religious discussions, or criticizing religions - it is just not accepted among many religious people. Personally, I find it incredibly silly to believe in an invisible man who lives in the sky and watches your every move. In fact, I find it unreasonable for people to expect me to fully understand and respect that they believe in such things. I would not expect them to be able to hold a straight face either, had I told them that I believe in an invisible unicorn that follows me around all the time. Before you ask - yes, these two things are just as silly.

Now, even if you do happen to believe in God, and believe that the stories in The Bible or The Quran are true, then I'm fine with that. However, I find it disturbing when people choose to actually worship the people/someone written about in such a book. Call me disrespectful as much as you want, but I do find it hard to accept that people believe in Noahs ArK and such stories like the one about Jesus rising up from the grave. I cannot help but think of it as anything but a clear sign of ignorance. Religion seems like an easy answer to it all - it makes people less curious about the actual origin of life (as I do not believe in the one described in The Bible), and thus holds the human race back from evolving - not to mention all the wars and violence it is constantly causing.

So, what do you people think, OT? Am I being unreasonable? What's your answer to religion? It would be nice if we could get a little discussion going here.

escapeoftheape

I thought i would point out some flaws in your argument.

1. In being an Agnostic, and accepting that there may be a higher power in the world, surely that leaves open the possibility that one of the religious traditions of man might actually be right, which you seem to negate.

2. Why would someone believe in a religion, but not act accordingly? If someone was genuinely Jewish, and had Jewsih beliefs, those beliefs would necessitate he act in a certain way. Jews who don't eat pork don't because they genuinely believe that it is bad. That is not limiting their freedom, that is a choice.

3. If someone looks at you with envy when you are drinking alcohol, he is then not a genuine believer, because a true believer would, in accordance with their religion, perceive it as bad. In this way, the example you have highlighted is of someone with limited beliefs, or indoctrinated beliefs (as you say, from their parents for instance).

But the example of your friends' envy shows not only your limited subjectivity on the matter, but also, could envy merely be seen as temptation, which the believer himself might have perceived as bad, and hence refused to act on those temptations. You have made a lot of unjustified assumptions in this example.

4. The genuine believer could not act in the foreknowledge of penance (repenting). That would simply be feigning a belief, and an omniscient God would recognise that, so that person is not a believer. Hence your claim that some people believe solely for the sake of doing evil or for the reason to do evil, is not only paradoxical were he a true beliver, but somewhat irrelevant if God truly knows.

5. Why do needs make you weaker? What an extraordinary thing to say. The capacity and my 'need' for love does not make me weak, it empowers me. Again this is a subjective and debatable point but what you have said is interesting.

6. Saying that 90% of people have indoctrinated beliefs is rather high in my opinion. Many turn to God on the brink of despair, which finds many of us, or when they cannot explain particular circumstances. Indoctrination is a strong element, but in the modern world, things such as the Internet and the exposure to different views on television or theories of science help to downplay that.

7. Religion itself is not a tool of segregation and control, it is the Churches that act in the name of the religion that make it seem so. There is a difference.

8. Is it not understandable that people feel superior for believing? They feel as though they know better, and that we non-believers are either ignorant, foolish, or simply wrong. Would you blame Einstein for feeling superior to his students for knowing better than they did?

9. Man fears the unknown. So using religion as an explanatory tool is not as silly as you make it out to be. By comparing God to an invisible unicorn has derogatorive connotations. Yes, in terms of methodical science, either one seems just as likely, but that negates the point of faith. To belief in that which you cannot prove.

10. Again, why believe in the stories/doctrines of a religion, and then not act accordingly? I would have more respect for the Christian man who says he believes, and then actually attends Church every Sunday, or prays etc, than the man who believes, but does nothing to show it.

11. Man is perfectly capable of causing wars without religion. Hitler was known as secularist Philosopher king, and although acted in accordance with some strong Roman Catholic views, drew on many aspects of Plato in 'The Republic', a book which holds an agnostic tone.

12. You could well say religion is psychological evolution, but the evolution of man is long and continuous process. Just because the withdrawal, as it seems in a more secularist world, seems longwinded, does not necessarily mean that relgion is holding us back. Rather, man is simply progressing as it should. You are like a marathon runner who gets annoyed he hasn't finished the race while only running a mile.

I might be being critical for the sake of being critical, as i am not going to disclose my own views on the matter, but i just wanted to point you some flaws in your argument, because in many instances, i simply think you are wrong.

[QUOTE="Stanley09"]No way I believe in god. For those of you that do; do you really believe everything in the bible?acsam12304

does it matter if we do or not? just saying...

[QUOTE="escapeoftheape"]

Alright, so recently I have gotten quite fed up with religion. Let me start off, I'm personally an Agnostic - I don't believe in a certain religion, but due to the complexity and intelectually of this world, I'm open to the possibility of there being some kind of a higher being. The reason why I've gotten so fed up lately is that I've noticed that several of my friends are in fact religious.

Now, I don't really have a problem with religious people in general, although I do think it is silly for someone to believe in something written in a book which is supposedly 2000 years old. My problem, is when people "religionize" their lives. This is when someone let their religion control their way of being and dictate certain aspects of their lives, such as nutrition (this is the case for many muslims and jews). At each party, my friend has been looking at me and my other friends with envy whenever we have been consuming alcohol. He has told me that he does indeed want to try it, but that he can't because of his religion. Now, I'm not defending alcohol or drugs, but I do think that it is a shame when people are held back from being who they want and doing what they want, because of religion. There are of course people, who are not like this at all. In fact, sometimes, religion can cause people to not care about being a good person - as it gives them the possibillity to just repent after every "sin" they've commited.

In my opinion, everyone was born an atheist/agnostic. You might state that many people "need" religion, but by saying this you basically say that people who don't have a religious inherit some kind of superiority. I don't think non-religious people are more intelligent than religious people, as I believe that 90% of religious people are religious only because their parents taught them to be. Very few people discover religion as a grown up. Basically, I think religion is a false need given to people by their parents (in the vast majority of cases), and being a need (something you couldn't do without) it makes you weaker.

There are of course other aspects of religion as well, many of which I'd describe as being very dark. I went to a christian junior high school myself, so I have witnessed for 3 years of my life what religion can potentially do to people. Religion has worked as a tool of control and segregation since the beginning - it is the reason for tons of wars and an awful lot of blood has been shed in the name of religion. This still happens today, and i honestly cannot conceive of how anyone would willingly associate themselves with something that is the cause of so much despair. Another thing I noticed, going to that school, was that the people there did indeed have a feeling of superiority. I was looked down upon as if I was a bad person, due to the fact that I was not religious.

Then you have the problem related to religious discussions, or criticizing religions - it is just not accepted among many religious people. Personally, I find it incredibly silly to believe in an invisible man who lives in the sky and watches your every move. In fact, I find it unreasonable for people to expect me to fully understand and respect that they believe in such things. I would not expect them to be able to hold a straight face either, had I told them that I believe in an invisible unicorn that follows me around all the time. Before you ask - yes, these two things are just as silly.

Now, even if you do happen to believe in God, and believe that the stories in The Bible or The Quran are true, then I'm fine with that. However, I find it disturbing when people choose to actually worship the people/someone written about in such a book. Call me disrespectful as much as you want, but I do find it hard to accept that people believe in Noahs ArK and such stories like the one about Jesus rising up from the grave. I cannot help but think of it as anything but a clear sign of ignorance. Religion seems like an easy answer to it all - it makes people less curious about the actual origin of life (as I do not believe in the one described in The Bible), and thus holds the human race back from evolving - not to mention all the wars and violence it is constantly causing.

So, what do you people think, OT? Am I being unreasonable? What's your answer to religion? It would be nice if we could get a little discussion going here.

IAMTHEJOKER88

I thought i would point out some flaws in your argument.

1. In being an Agnostic, and accepting that there may be a higher power in the world, surely that leaves open the possibility that one of the religious traditions of man might actually be right, which you seem to negate.

2. Why would someone believe in a religion, but not act accordingly? If someone was genuinely Jewish, and had Jewsih beliefs, those beliefs would necessitate he act in a certain way. Jews who don't eat pork don't because they genuinely believe that it is bad. That is not limiting their freedom, that is a choice.

3. If someone looks at you with envy when you are drinking alcohol, he is then not a genuine believer, because a true believer would, in accordance with their religion, perceive it as bad. In this way, the example you have highlighted is of someone with limited beliefs, or indoctrinated beliefs (as you say, from their parents for instance).

But the example of your friends' envy shows not only your limited subjectivity on the matter, but also, could envy merely be seen as temptation, which the believer himself might have perceived as bad, and hence refused to act on those temptations. You have made a lot of unjustified assumptions in this example.

4. The genuine believer could not act in the foreknowledge of penance (repenting). That would simply be feigning a belief, and an omniscient God would recognise that, so that person is not a believer. Hence your claim that some people believe solely for the sake of doing evil or for the reason to do evil, is not only paradoxical were he a true beliver, but somewhat irrelevant if God truly knows.

5. Why do needs make you weaker? What an extraordinary thing to say. The capacity and my 'need' for love does not make me weak, it empowers me. Again this is a subjective and debatable point but what you have said is interesting.

6. Saying that 90% of people have indoctrinated beliefs is rather high in my opinion. Many turn to God on the brink of despair, which finds many of us, or when they cannot explain particular circumstances. Indoctrination is a strong element, but in the modern world, things such as the Internet and the exposure to different views on television or theories of science help to downplay that.

7. Religion itself is not a tool of segregation and control, it is the Churches that act in the name of the religion that make it seem so. There is a difference.

8. Is it not understandable that people feel superior for believing? They feel as though they know better, and that we non-believers are either ignorant, foolish, or simply wrong. Would you blame Einstein for feeling superior to his students for knowing better than they did?

9. Man fears the unknown. So using religion as an explanatory tool is not as silly as you make it out to be. By comparing God to an invisible unicorn has derogatorive connotations. Yes, in terms of methodical science, either one seems just as likely, but that negates the point of faith. To belief in that which you cannot prove.

10. Again, why believe in the stories/doctrines of a religion, and then not act accordingly? I would have more respect for the Christian man who says he believes, and then actually attends Church every Sunday, or prays etc, than the man who believes, but does nothing to show it.

11. Man is perfectly capable of causing wars without religion. Hitler was known as secularist Philosopher king, and although acted in accordance with some strong Roman Catholic views, drew on many aspects of Plato in 'The Republic', a book which holds an agnostic tone.

12. You could well say religion is psychological evolution, but the evolution of man is long and continuous process. Just because the withdrawal, as it seems in a more secularist world, seems longwinded, does not necessarily mean that relgion is holding us back. Rather, man is simply progressing as it should. You are like a marathon runner who gets annoyed he hasn't finished the race while only running a mile.

I might be being critical for the sake of being critical, as i am not going to disclose my own views on the matter, but i just wanted to point you some flaws in your argument, because in many instances, i simply think you are wrong.

1. Well, maybe I am an atheist. My point is merely that even if you do dismiss the big bang theory, and believe in a creator, I feel like it's craziness to actually worship this "creator". There is a difference between believing in a god, or a creator, than to be religious (and follow the texts written in some old book).

2. Because both the Quran and the Bible contain some texts which can only be described as evil - many of them are extremely discriminating. It should be possible to modernize a religion to make it fit in with todays world.

3. Why is he not a true believer? IMO that is his human side coming into visibility. Of course he would want to drink when he sees how much joy others get from it, no matter if he knows his religion forbids it or not. It doesn't have anything to do with being a believer, it's just a part of being human.

4. Not necessarily doing evil, but they might not make as big of an effort in life only due to the fact that they know that if anything goes wrong, they can just repent. I have met several christians who have used this as a way to justify not making an effort. The Bible teaches you to be like Jesus, yet today christians drive past slums in their SUV's on the way to church. Are they not christians? I think they are, they just don't bother making an effort - they're too human to give away all their belongings. Besides, they know they can just repent and then everything will be okay.

5. I guess number 4 answered this. People don't really bother making an effort, as they know they can just repent later on and everything will be fine. One can also compare the HDI's of countrys of certain religions.. Even branches within christianity. Look at Europe - protestant countries are rich, catholic countries are in the middle, and orthodox countries are poor. Now, I don't know a whole lot about the different branches of christainity.. But I know that the mentality of protestants is something along the lines of "if I don't succeed, I must try even harder", whereas in the Catholic church there is room for confession etc. It makes it easier to not give a f when you know everything will be fine afterwards as you can just confess to the priest.

6. IMO those who become religious in later years cannot compare in size compared to those who were introduced to it by their parents. If your parents told you all the time since you were born that christianity was the way to go, very few people would let anything written on the internet have any effect on them at all. I know that most people I know who were raised a christian or a muslim, are impossible to convert back to atheism/agnosticism.

7. If you and me are having an argument, it is because we have different opinions. Wars are created because of this - differencies. Wether it be opinions, skin color, culture or.. well, religion. It segregates people, created differencies between them, which many times throughout history has led to war and despair.

8. I'm not saying it's not understandable to feel superior to someone if you feel like you know something they don't - I'm saying that this is a problem and a bad side of religion. Again, this makes for heated conflicts with the potential of becoming violent and even lethal. Look at the crusades.

9. If you think that an invisible unicorn is just as likely to be the creator of the universe as the big bang theory, I'm afraid we have a disagreement. This is why I wrote that religious people should not expect people to keep a straight face when hearing about what they believe in - as it seems incredibly silly to those of us who are not religious. I don't feel like i deserve to be labeled as something as negative as "disrespectful" because I criticize a religion, a persons belief.

10. I don't base my respect of a person on what he or she believes in. This is because i truly believe that 90% of believers had their beliefs indutrinated by their parents or priests. Those little kids didn't even get to have a say - they were forced into it. I'm not denying that I probably would have been religious too, if my parents had raised me to be so (I was raised mainly by my mom, and while she considers herself a christian, she never attends church etc). Because of this, I don't consider "intelligence" and "religiousness" as two different things. I hate using the word, as it has such a negative and "offensive" ring to it, but it's brainwashing. Nothing more, nothing less.

11. See point number 7.. There are many causes for wars, and religion is one of them. Thus, without religion - there would be less war. IMO religion is a false need which doesn't have to be there. This is why I don't justify fighting over food with fighting over religious beliefs.

12. As more and more information is available to the average man, I find it natural for religion to diminish more and more. The rational side of man will always hold proven facts over magic, at least that's what I think.

I hope this cleared things up a little. I would of course be happy for another reply from you.

[QUOTE="acsam12304"]

[QUOTE="Stanley09"]No way I believe in god. For those of you that do; do you really believe everything in the bible?Stanley09

does it matter if we do or not? just saying...

and what if i do whats your point?

i can tell you accounts as to where a few people prayed to God because something bad was happening ( one of them being my mom and i was being born) and to when i was a kid i had a heart condition as to where my heart was in the place, they were suppose to cut me up and move it to the right place. i still remember when i had all these wires hooked up to me. they said it will be costly and be very risky, my mom and dad prayed to God so i would be ok, and then all of a sudden my mom said when they went to go see my heart again it was in the right place and i got discharged from the hospital a few days later with out them doing anything to me.

when i was being born is a long story that my mom always tell me and ill be glad to share it if you ask, but does God do exist? yes, do i believe in him? yes, do i practice it? no because im not ready yet and i dont want to right now.

even tho i dont follow the lords word, because i chose not to and i done so many things that will be considered as sins and i still want to continue to live the way im living now, doesnt mean i turn a blind eye to it.

[QUOTE="Stanley09"][QUOTE="acsam12304"]

does it matter if we do or not? just saying...

acsam12304

and what if i do whats your point?

[QUOTE="acsam12304"]

[QUOTE="Stanley09"] So you think Adam lived to nearly 1,000 years old? And that Noah really built a big ass ship and had tons of animals on it? I dont see how you can not believe in these things and believe in godStanley09

and what if i do whats your point?

i edited my post. read it again

and yup you guess good for me then huh?. and so what if i do? its your problem if you see it as a fairy tale.

[QUOTE="Stanley09"][QUOTE="acsam12304"]

does it matter if we do or not? just saying...

acsam12304

and what if i do whats your point?

i can tell you accounts as to where a few people prayed to God because something bad was happening ( one of them being my mom and i was being born) and to when i was a kid i had a heart condition as to where my heart was in the place, they were suppose to cut me up and move it to the right place. i still remember when i had all these wires hooked up to me. they said it will be costly and be very risky, my mom and dad prayed to God so i would be ok, and then all of a sudden my mom said when they went to go see my heart again it was in the right place and i got discharged from the hospital a few days later with out them doing anything to me.

when i was being born is a long story that my mom always tell me and ill be glad to share it if you ask, but does God do exist? yes, do i believe in him? yes, do i practice it? no because im not ready yet and i dont want to right now.

even tho i dont follow the lords word, because i chose not to and i done so many things that will be considered as sins and i still want to continue to live the way im living now, doesnt mean i turn a blind eye to it.

[QUOTE="acsam12304"]

[QUOTE="Stanley09"] So you think Adam lived to nearly 1,000 years old? And that Noah really built a big ass ship and had tons of animals on it? I dont see how you can not believe in these things and believe in godStanley09

and what if i do whats your point?

i can tell you accounts as to where a few people prayed to God because something bad was happening ( one of them being my mom and i was being born) and to when i was a kid i had a heart condition as to where my heart was in the place, they were suppose to cut me up and move it to the right place. i still remember when i had all these wires hooked up to me. they said it will be costly and be very risky, my mom and dad prayed to God so i would be ok, and then all of a sudden my mom said when they went to go see my heart again it was in the right place and i got discharged from the hospital a few days later with out them doing anything to me.

when i was being born is a long story that my mom always tell me and ill be glad to share it if you ask, but does God do exist? yes, do i believe in him? yes, do i practice it? no because im not ready yet and i dont want to right now.

even tho i dont follow the lords word, because i chose not to and i done so many things that will be considered as sins and i still want to continue to live the way im living now, doesnt mean i turn a blind eye to it.

i dont "think" God gave me a miracle he did as well as a lot of accounts from people i knew over the years.

and ok it can all be proved by science and evolution so what? whats your point?

lol and i love how your kind of folks like you always see this kind of post and quickly jumps in and say something like this. its like you have to get in and say something bad about it

I think at our core a lot of us are religious in some way or another. To question our own existence is common and to me that is being somewhat religious since there was a beginning. However the end is where everything gets confusing. Douglas Adams wrote:

"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."

I agree with that sentiment completely. We know what we are but from where we came and to where we are going is a big mystery.

Sacif

People fear the unknown and tend to make their own beliefs. A lot of people don't even believe that the universe was created.

Science has never been able to prove the scriptures wrong. Also, all the scientific principles in the scriptures hold true today as back then. There is absolutely a God, and he had a son, Jesus Christ.wiifan001