atheist, agnostic or religious?

[QUOTE="apologist101"]

one more thing, Bauckham is a historian, not a theologian.

and you misspelled "Theologian"

jimmyjammer69

Just looked him up, and he is a historical theologian.

[QUOTE="mercypoo"]Unfortunately, not many take the initiative to step outside of that box.

apologist101

And you're not?

[QUOTE="xMOBSTER23x"]

Ancient texts such as the bible and the Quran are primitive writings by primitive beings that were not as mentally advanced as we are. Only a fool would believe those literally in this day and age.

apologist101

I don't know if you're referring to natural law in the philosophical sense(Aristotle, or Thomas Aquinas), but yes, I think Natural Law is primitive, and would consider myself to be more in agreement with the Utilitarian viewpoint. And of course there were great thinkers throughout history, but they were rare, and were great acheivers. You can't deny that our society is much more advanced and civilized than the past 2000 years. You can look at the Inquisition and see the barbaric, inhumane and illogical acts done in the name of Christianity to see the hypocrisy and stupidity of religion and how detrimental it is to a society. Look at Islam today and see how much cruelty and suffering it does for humanity. These religions(the abrahamic religions) are primitive and detrimental to the human mind.

The 'agnostic' in agnostic atheist is redundant as surely no atheist can have actual knowledge of the non-existence of God.

That's why I think it is best to say just 'atheist'.

[QUOTE="apologist101"][QUOTE="xMOBSTER23x"]

Ancient texts such as the bible and the Quran are primitive writings by primitive beings that were not as mentally advanced as we are. Only a fool would believe those literally in this day and age.

xMOBSTER23x

I don't know if you're referring to natural law in the philosophical sense(Aristotle, or Thomas Aquinas), but yes, I think Natural Law is primitive, and would consider myself to be more in agreement with the Utilitarian viewpoint. And of course there were great thinkers throughout history, but they were rare, and were great acheivers. You can't deny that our society is much more advanced and civilized than the past 2000 years. You can look at the Inquisition and see the barbaric, inhumane and illogical acts done in the name of Christianity to see the hypocrisy and stupidity of religion and how detrimental it is to a society. Look at Islam today and see how much cruelty and suffering it does for humanity. These religions(the abrahamic religions) are primitive and detrimental to the human mind.

Just a thought, I don't think modern day humans are more mentally advanced that the people who wrote the bible, quran, etc., we're just more knowledgeable, meaning we're not as inclined to believe things which escape our comprehension are the work of gods or other supernatural entities. The only difference between us and them is that they didn't know the cause of lightning, earthquakes, rain, etc., so they used god and the supernatural as an explanation.

Just my two cents for this discussion. :P

[QUOTE="xMOBSTER23x"][QUOTE="apologist101"] really? do you have some sort of peer-reviewed publication giving evidence that people who lived 2,000 years ago or 1300 years ago were significantly less intelligent? are you forgetting the rather incredible philosophical musings of Plato or Aristotle or Democritus, whose arguments are remarkably similar to modern arguments surrounding the question of God? This idea of yours is nothing more than baseless western arrogance. I would argue that modern people are, thanks to the anti-supernatural bias instilled by the marxists controlling our universities and higher centres of learning, are more gullible than ancients. Modern man is willing to believe anything, anything at all so long as it does not breach percieved "natural law" or "natural order", but when the evidence rather tellingly favors a "breach" of that "law", they will express unlimited incredulity.

 

black_cat19

I don't know if you're referring to natural law in the philosophical sense(Aristotle, or Thomas Aquinas), but yes, I think Natural Law is primitive, and would consider myself to be more in agreement with the Utilitarian viewpoint. And of course there were great thinkers throughout history, but they were rare, and were great acheivers. You can't deny that our society is much more advanced and civilized than the past 2000 years. You can look at the Inquisition and see the barbaric, inhumane and illogical acts done in the name of Christianity to see the hypocrisy and stupidity of religion and how detrimental it is to a society. Look at Islam today and see how much cruelty and suffering it does for humanity. These religions(the abrahamic religions) are primitive and detrimental to the human mind.

Just a thought, I don't think modern day humans are more mentally advanced that the people who wrote the bible, quran, etc., we're just more knowledgeable, meaning we're not as inclined to believe things which escape our comprehension are the work of gods or other supernatural entities. The only difference between us and them is that they didn't know the cause of lightning, earthquakes, rain, etc., so they used god and the supernatural as an explanation.

Just my two cents for this discussion. :P

Yes yes, I suppose I worded it wrong. We're more knowledgeable, genetically we really haven't changed much in only 2000 years. But we are more advanced because of the abundance of knowledge we have now.

Also, I can not be certain of the existence of say 'trees'.

That does not mean I am agnostic to the existence of trees.

Saying so is a redundant expression.

For everything created, it has/there is a creator and thats why I believe in god, it's that simple.

Im a Muslim.

Aww... what the hell did apologist get banned for? I haven't had a religion argument in a while. I'm guessing he was an old user who was ban dodging.xMOBSTER23x

For everything created, it has/there is a creator and thats why I believe in god, it's that simple.

Im a Muslim.

 

HAZE-Unit

[QUOTE="HAZE-Unit"]

For everything created, it has/there is a creator and thats why I believe in god, it's that simple.

Im a Muslim.

Funky_Llama

Who else could he be? A kid with a magnifying glass :o ?

[QUOTE="HAZE-Unit"]For everything created, it has/there is a creator and thats why I believe in god, it's that simple.

Im a Muslim.Funky_Llama

There is a creator for this website, can you deny it?

if I believe in everything created in this world, how couldn't I figure who created me? there must be the best intelligent creator for me, there must be a creator for this big world and this creator must be intelligent because this creator provided me with everything I need for a living, all of this are no coincidences.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="HAZE-Unit"]

For everything created, it has/there is a creator and thats why I believe in god, it's that simple.

Im a Muslim.

 

123625

Who else could he be? A kid with a magnifying glass :o ?

Why must there be a creator? And who created God?

[QUOTE="123625"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]Why must that creator be God? And how do you know that everything requires a creator?xMOBSTER23x

Who else could he be? A kid with a magnifying glass :o ?

Why must there be a creator? And who created God?

Apparently, God always was.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="HAZE-Unit"]

For everything created, it has/there is a creator and thats why I believe in god, it's that simple.

Im a Muslim.

 

123625

Who else could he be? A kid with a magnifying glass :o ?

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="HAZE-Unit"]For everything created, it has/there is a creator and thats why I believe in god, it's that simple.

Im a Muslim.HAZE-Unit

There is a creator for this website, can you deny it?

if I believe in everything created in this world, how couldn't I figure who created me? there must be the best intelligent creator for me, there must be a creator for this big world and this creator must be intelligent because this creator provided me with everything I need for a living, all of this are no coincidences.

Why must the creator be intelligent?

[QUOTE="xMOBSTER23x"][QUOTE="123625"]

Who else could he be? A kid with a magnifying glass :o ?

Silverbond

Why must there be a creator? And who created God?

Apparently, God always was.

There's no logic or science for that to make any sense. There are so many other theories people can come up with, why does "God" always have to be the only one?

[QUOTE="HAZE-Unit"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]Why must that creator be God? And how do you know that everything requires a creator?Funky_Llama

There is a creator for this website, can you deny it?

if I believe in everything created in this world, how couldn't I figure who created me? there must be the best intelligent creator for me, there must be a creator for this big world and this creator must be intelligent because this creator provided me with everything I need for a living, all of this are no coincidences.

Why must the creator be intelligent?

Because the universe, humans and all creatures are complicated, the more complicated the creation is, the more intelligent the creator must be.

The creator of a table is not like the creator of a car or a theory.

[QUOTE="Silverbond"][QUOTE="xMOBSTER23x"]

Why must there be a creator? And who created God?

xMOBSTER23x

Apparently, God always was.

There's no logic or science for that to make any sense. There are so many other theories people can come up with, why does "God" always have to be the only one?

I never said I agreed with that.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

[QUOTE="HAZE-Unit"]

There is a creator for this website, can you deny it?

if I believe in everything created in this world, how couldn't I figure who created me? there must be the best intelligent creator for me, there must be a creator for this big world and this creator must be intelligent because this creator provided me with everything I need for a living, all of this are no coincidences.

HAZE-Unit

Why must the creator be intelligent?

Because the universe, humans and all creatures are complicated, the more complicated the creation is, the more intelligent the creator must be.

The creator of a table is not like the creator of a car or a theory.

As for the claim that the more complicated something is, the more intelligent the creator must be... prove it.

There's no logic or science for that to make any sense. There are so many other theories people can come up with, why does "God" always have to be the only one? xMOBSTER23x

It is a pity when someone says something, but no one is paying attention enough to hear because they are arguing so passionately over things less importantOptimusLupus

That's the whole point of OT.

You're supposed to incessantly argue over the semantics of metaphysical concepts that bear no immediate effect on your life and are essentially pointless since the person you're arguing with is nothing more than a username that is represented by blobs of text.

[QUOTE="xMOBSTER23x"]There's no logic or science for that to make any sense. There are so many other theories people can come up with, why does "God" always have to be the only one? 123625

Elements of all 3 are true. Its like 3 people, with 3 red delicious apples, arguing over who has the best one.

Atheist. There is no scientific proof that god or jesus existed/exist.Vilot_Hero

But there is no scientific proof that he doesn't exist.  You could use the same logic to argue the reasoning of why you believe what you believe.

I'm a Christian, by the way.

[QUOTE="123625"][QUOTE="xMOBSTER23x"]There's no logic or science for that to make any sense. There are so many other theories people can come up with, why does "God" always have to be the only one? Funky_Llama

Argh, I can't explain that :x

Elements of all 3 are true. Its like 3 people, with 3 red delicious apples, arguing over who has the best one.

OptimusLupus

Can my apple be green?

[QUOTE="123625"][QUOTE="xMOBSTER23x"]There's no logic or science for that to make any sense. There are so many other theories people can come up with, why does "God" always have to be the only one? Funky_Llama

But does time actually exist?  TIme is simply a measurement that man has devised to mark events.  But nevertheless God has always existed.  Before creation there was nothing.  Time began when creation happened.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="123625"] Well assuming God was before the universe, and the universe is the only thing that came with time, I'm sure its entirely possible God is eternal.8bitlove

But does time actually exist?  TIme is simply a measurement that man has devised to mark events.  But nevertheless God has always existed.  Before creation there was nothing.  Time began when creation happened.

Err, no.

We may have conceived was to measure and interpret time, but time itself is technically a physical property of existence as far as current physical standards go. Time is simply the occurrence of events taking place in succession. Without physical time, objects would not be able to have sequential actions and results, which would effectively mean that everything would be static.

[QUOTE="8bitlove"]

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]So if God's always been there, then an infinite amount of time has preceded us, but an infinite amount of time will never pass, so God would never get around to creating the universe... therefore... we don't exist! :o,Blood-Scribe

But does time actually exist?  TIme is simply a measurement that man has devised to mark events.  But nevertheless God has always existed.  Before creation there was nothing.  Time began when creation happened.

Err, no.

We may have conceived was to measure and interpret time, but time itself is technically a physical property of existence as far as current physical standards go. Time is simply the occurrence of events taking place in succession. Without physical time, objects would not be able to have sequential actions and results, which would effectively mean that everything would be static.

No.  Events happen.  No one questions that, but is based on the assumption that this will continue and has happened.  There is no proof that it will continue.  Also time is an idea.  It is a concept therefore it has no being or existence.

[QUOTE="HAZE-Unit"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]I think we can safely agree that this website is different to the universe a whole...Why must the creator be intelligent? Funky_Llama

Why must the creator be intelligent?

Because the universe, humans and all creatures are complicated, the more complicated the creation is, the more intelligent the creator must be.

The creator of a table is not like the creator of a car or a theory.

As for the claim that the more complicated something is, the more intelligent the creator must be... prove it.

Ok so you are saying it is usually and obvious for you things within the universe have a creator yet at the same time it is not obvious for you there is something created you, me and the universe? thats why in my OP I said it's that simple, if you believe and agree with me on the usually then why you believe with the so called spontaneous, there is no coincidences, a car cannot appear suddenly with out any reason, there is a manufacturer which "created" the car, the same thing goes for the cat, there is something created the cat, we have minds so we could think and ask, there must be a creator? if a car does have then there must be a creator for this cat also?

Let me do the honor to prove it, just like I said, a creator of a table is not as intelligent/complicated as creator of something more complicated, let alone the unviverse.

[QUOTE="Blood-Scribe"][QUOTE="8bitlove"]

 

But does time actually exist?  TIme is simply a measurement that man has devised to mark events.  But nevertheless God has always existed.  Before creation there was nothing.  Time began when creation happened.

8bitlove

Err, no.

We may have conceived was to measure and interpret time, but time itself is technically a physical property of existence as far as current physical standards go. Time is simply the occurrence of events taking place in succession. Without physical time, objects would not be able to have sequential actions and results, which would effectively mean that everything would be static.

No.  Events happen.  No one questions that, but is based on the assumption that this will continue and has happened.  There is no proof that it will continue.  Also time is an idea.  It is a concept therefore it has no being or existence.

Since when does the definition of time entail that events, actions, and causes will continue to take place in the physical world? Our methods of interpreting time essentially give us a point of reference for events that occur for the sake of differentiating them and comparing them to other events that also occur. But since these events are occurring in succession in a given frame of the physical world, it essentially means that by virtue of their own properties, they are able to perform said actions. Hence since they have the ability to do so, they effectively represent the impact of time on the known universe.

Time doesn't exist anymore than gravity exists, but we still see its effects, hence our interpretation of time is effectively non-existent, but the actual occurrences that are dictated by time in a given sequence that allow these actions to take place exist. Hence it all boils down to interpretations of time, which I would assert that they could just be the name given for the fact that sequences are taking place, not necessarily that time itself is taking place.

Agnostic. Saying something does or does not exist is ignorant IMO, so I try to stay in the middle of the see-saw.

Why must the creator be intelligent?

Funky_Llama

That just reminds me of Terry Pratchett books. :lol: Like, the most powerful magic tome in the Discworld was left by The Creator "in characteristic absent mindedness".

I believe in God. I am a Christian. 

I feel that atheists should understand that faith can also be rational, and that fundementalist theists should come to their senses on some issues like evolution.

I feel that atheists should understand that faith can also be rational Acemaster27

That's kind of vague. Depends on what kind of faith you're talking about. Faith in family members can be rational because of evidence that you've seen in order to trust them. Faith in god can never be rational unless we see verifiable evidence, and in case you were wondering, I don't consider myself rational either.