Ayn Rand's sudden increase in (internet) popularity?

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ghoklebutter

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#151 ghoklebutter
Member since 2007 • 19327 Posts

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[ [QUOTE="Snipes_2"]Just Wikipedia "Ayn Rand" to find the answers you're looking for.

"Her very ideology was the epitome of selfishness"

Arent you a Liberal?Snipes_2

Gee, what oh what could lead people to think she's selfish?

Thanks, Now I can quote the book for you :)

""The Objectivist ethics proudly advocates and
upholds rational selfishness-which means: the
values required for man's survival qua man-
which means: the values required for human
survival-not the values produced by the desires,
the feelings, the whims or the needs of irrational
brutes, who have never outgrown the primordial
practice of human sacrifices.""

Indeed, if something doesn't benefit me, then I can leave it. :) Silly homeless people, they shouldn't expect to be given money. What a primordial practice that is!

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HAHAITHINKNOT

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#152 HAHAITHINKNOT
Member since 2010 • 403 Posts

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

Thanks, Now I can quote the book for you :)

""The Objectivist ethics proudly advocates and
upholds rational selfishness-which means: the
values required for man's survival qua man-
which means: the values required for human
survival-not the values produced by the desires,
the feelings, the whims or the needs of irrational
brutes, who have never outgrown the primordial
practice of human sacrifices.""

Snipes_2

:lol: I swear, Snipes, you'd argue that St. Francis was a homosexual gypsy if the discussion got to that point.

No I wouldn't. Because no Saint was a Homosexual..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Sergius

Aww yeah

Of course, not being homophobic, you won't care about that, right?

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GreySeal9

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#153 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

Snipes wrote (I'm having problems with tags):

1). What? I posted that liberals thought she was selfish, you said she was, so it would follow that you might be a liberal...

2). "he financial crisis of 2007–2010 spurred renewed interest in her works, especially Atlas Shrugged, which some saw as foreshadowing the crisis.[172] Conservative talk show hosts such as Glenn Beck,[173] Neal Boortz[174] and Rush Limbaugh[175] recommended the novel to their audiences, and opinion articles compared real-world events with the plot of the novel.[176] Signs mentioning Rand and her fictional hero John Galt appeared at Tea Party protests,[177] while the Cato Institute's Will Wilkinson quipped that "going Galt" had become the "libertarian-conservative's version of progressives threatening to move to Canada."[151] During this period there was also increased criticism of her ideas, especially from the political left, with critics blaming her support of selfishness and free markets for the economic crisis, particularly through her influence on Alan Greenspan.[178] For example, the left-leaning Mother Jones remarked that "Rand's particular genius has always been her ability to turn upside down traditional hierarchies and recast the wealthy, the talented, and the powerful as the oppressed",[151] while The Nation alleged similarities between the "moral syntax of Randianism" and fascism.[152]"

3). "Liberal Bashfest" :?

My response:

Yes, liberal bashfest. Instead of discussing the philosophy, you've tried to focus the conversation onto liberals.

You seemed to find the notion that Rand was selfish funny when it is accurate.

But thank you for posting the quotes. The generalizations of the left come across as a bit amatuerish. It would be better to name the people who actually made these assertions.

Blaming Rand for the financial crisis is kind of silly as it oversimplifies what happened, but that Mother Jones quote hits the nail on the head IMO.

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GabuEx

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#154 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]She makes it sound all well and good by saying that there is nothing wrong in helping other people, but if one really reads what she's saying, she is effectively saying that as long as one assures oneself that a person is not "worthy" of one's help then there is nothing wrong with not giving that person help. Couple this in with her rather clear apathy towards the plight of the impoverished and the way in which she effectively ties together poverty with failure and the implications in what she has to say seem rather evident to me.

bobaban

So you think its fine to help the bum on the street that asks you for food money only to go spend it on booze? She has a point, some people aren't worthy of help.

The fact that someone who asks for cash might spend it on booze means nothing other than that there are better ways to help that person than to give him cash with no strings attached. And it certainly doesn't mean the person is not "worthy" of help. If anything, a person who is such an alcoholic that his first impulse when receiving money is to spend it on booze needs more help than most.

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HAHAITHINKNOT

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#155 HAHAITHINKNOT
Member since 2010 • 403 Posts

[QUOTE="HAHAITHINKNOT"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

Thanks, Now I can quote the book for you :)

""The Objectivist ethics proudly advocates and
upholds rational selfishness-which means: the
values required for man's survival qua man-
which means: the values required for human
survival-not the values produced by the desires,
the feelings, the whims or the needs of irrational
brutes, who have never outgrown the primordial
practice of human sacrifices.""

Snipes_2

What on earth are you doing; you're supposed to be denying that she's selfish, remember? :lol:

Did you even read the quote...

:lol: Please, I'd read that quote before and I read it again when you posted it. I know her philosophy much, much better than you do and we all know that you did nothing but embarrass yourself by denying her selfishness when in fact ethical egoism is the cornerstone of her philosophy. But sure, keep finding more corner to back into - it's sweet.

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GreySeal9

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#156 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] No, I don't think she was selfish. If I'm going to give someone free money I want to know that it was well spent. Snipes_2

You obviously are not very familiar with her ideology, which states that selfishness is a virtue.

And you're strawmanning her argument. Weirdly, you're doing it in defense of her, but it's still a strawman.

Her argument wasn't that giving money to alcoholics is a waste.

Yes it was: ""not the values produced by the desires, the feelings, the whims or the needs of irrational brutes."

How does this quote support your notion that her argument was that giving alcoholics is a waste?

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Snipes_2

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#157 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"] :lol: I swear, Snipes, you'd argue that St. Francis was a homosexual gypsy if the discussion got to that point.

HAHAITHINKNOT

No I wouldn't. Because no Saint was a Homosexual..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Sergius

Aww yeah

Of course, not being homophobic, you won't care about that, right?

They weren't Gay so...Yeah. "This closeness has led the historian John Boswell to put forth the controversial suggestion that their relationship was a romantic one, however this suggestion has been challenged by several authors, including David Woods, Robin Darling Young, and Brent D. Shaw.[3]"
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Teenaged

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#158 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] I watched a Homeless man after he received some money. He went STRAIGHT to the Liquor store and came back with a brown bag full of alcohol, no joke. If anyone wants to prove this point go into New York City or any Major city and give a Homeless man $20, watch where he goes.

Snipes_2

Which proves what?

And I see a lot of homeless people in Athens who make sure to first eat when they manage to get some money from passers by.

Okay...? Good for the homeless people of Athens? :?

The person you responded to made a claim. You quoted him presenting an individual example to support his claim.

Unfortunately, individual cases do not prove a claim.

In order to illustrate that, I mention my experiences about homeless people which aimed in showing that individual cases vary greatly and therefore arent enough to support claims with.

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Snipes_2

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#159 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

You obviously are not very familiar with her ideology, which states that selfishness is a virtue.

And you're strawmanning her argument. Weirdly, you're doing it in defense of her, but it's still a strawman.

Her argument wasn't that giving money to alcoholics is a waste.

GreySeal9

Yes it was: ""not the values produced by the desires, the feelings, the whims or the needs of irrational brutes."

How does this quote support your notion that her argument was that giving alcoholics is a waste?

"Desires, Feelings, Whims or the needs of irrational brutes"? Maybe because alcoholism is a Feeling, and Desire for alcohol?
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Snipes_2

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#160 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]Which proves what?

And I see a lot of homeless people in Athens who make sure to first eat when they manage to get some money from passers by.

Teenaged

Okay...? Good for the homeless people of Athens? :?

The person you responded to made a claim. You quoted him presenting an individual example to support his claim.

Unfortunately, individual cases do not prove a claim.

In order to illustrate that, I mention my experiences about homeless people which aimed in showing that individual cases vary greatly and therefore arent enough to support claims with.

You don't live in America though so...
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HAHAITHINKNOT

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#161 HAHAITHINKNOT
Member since 2010 • 403 Posts
[QUOTE="HAHAITHINKNOT"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] No I wouldn't. Because no Saint was a Homosexual..

Snipes_2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Sergius

Aww yeah

Of course, not being homophobic, you won't care about that, right?

They weren't Gay so...Yeah. "This closeness has led the historian John Boswell to put forth the controversial suggestion that their relationship was a romantic one, however this suggestion has been challenged by several authors, including David Woods, Robin Darling Young, and Brent D. Shaw.[3]"

Maybe they were, and maybe they weren't - I'm not claiming that they are, but the uncertainty means that you can't reasonably affirm that no saints were homosexual. Not that it was a reasonable thing to say anyway.
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HAHAITHINKNOT

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#162 HAHAITHINKNOT
Member since 2010 • 403 Posts
[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] Okay...? Good for the homeless people of Athens? :?Snipes_2

The person you responded to made a claim. You quoted him presenting an individual example to support his claim.

Unfortunately, individual cases do not prove a claim.

In order to illustrate that, I mention my experiences about homeless people which aimed in showing that individual cases vary greatly and therefore arent enough to support claims with.

You don't live in America though so...

Yes, American hobos are special in that they subsist purely on booze.
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Snipes_2

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#163 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

[QUOTE="HAHAITHINKNOT"]What on earth are you doing; you're supposed to be denying that she's selfish, remember? :lol:

HAHAITHINKNOT

Did you even read the quote...

:lol: Please, I'd read that quote before and I read it again when you posted it. I know her philosophy much, much better than you do and we all know that you did nothing but embarrass yourself by denying her selfishness when in fact ethical egoism is the cornerstone of her philosophy. But sure, keep finding more corner to back into - it's sweet.

If you want to resort to childish insults enjoy yourself. Not responding to your blather anymore.
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Snipes_2

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#164 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]The person you responded to made a claim. You quoted him presenting an individual example to support his claim.

Unfortunately, individual cases do not prove a claim.

In order to illustrate that, I mention my experiences about homeless people which aimed in showing that individual cases vary greatly and therefore arent enough to support claims with.

HAHAITHINKNOT

You don't live in America though so...

Yes, American hobos are special in that they subsist purely on booze.

I'm Glad we can agree on that.

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Teenaged

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#165 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] You don't live in America though so...Snipes_2

You havent proven to me how homeless people in the US are different than those in Greece, though so.....

[QUOTE="HAHAITHINKNOT"]Yes, American hobos are special in that they subsist purely on booze.Snipes_2

I'm Glad we can agree on that.

You used sarcasm...

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HAHAITHINKNOT

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#166 HAHAITHINKNOT
Member since 2010 • 403 Posts
[QUOTE="HAHAITHINKNOT"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] Did you even read the quote...

Snipes_2

:lol: Please, I'd read that quote before and I read it again when you posted it. I know her philosophy much, much better than you do and we all know that you did nothing but embarrass yourself by denying her selfishness when in fact ethical egoism is the cornerstone of her philosophy. But sure, keep finding more corner to back into - it's sweet.

If you want to resort to childish insults enjoy yourself. Not responding to your blather anymore.

Aww, shame - you were being so entertaining.
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GreySeal9

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#167 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] Yes it was: ""not the values produced by the desires, the feelings, the whims or the needs of irrational brutes." Snipes_2

How does this quote support your notion that her argument was that giving alcoholics is a waste?

"Desires, Feelings, Whims or the needs of irrational brutes"? Maybe because alcoholism is a Feeling, and Desire for alcohol?

Just because alcoholism involves feelings and desires does not mean that her argument centered on alcoholics.

Her argument undoubtedly promoted selfishness as a virtue. I don't see why anybody would waste mental energy trying to deny that.

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ghoklebutter

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#168 ghoklebutter
Member since 2007 • 19327 Posts

[QUOTE="HAHAITHINKNOT"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"] You don't live in America though so...Snipes_2

Yes, American hobos are special in that they subsist purely on booze.

I'm Glad we can agree on that.

You agree on a sweeping generalization? :?
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Snipes_2

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#169 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="HAHAITHINKNOT"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Sergius

Aww yeah

Of course, not being homophobic, you won't care about that, right?

HAHAITHINKNOT

They weren't Gay so...Yeah. "This closeness has led the historian John Boswell to put forth the controversial suggestion that their relationship was a romantic one, however this suggestion has been challenged by several authors, including David Woods, Robin Darling Young, and Brent D. Shaw.[3]"

Maybe they were, and maybe they weren't - I'm not claiming that they are, but the uncertainty means that you can't reasonably affirm that no saints were homosexual. Not that it was a reasonable thing to say anyway.

Uhmm....Yes I can. Because none have been proven to be Gay ;)

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HAHAITHINKNOT

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#170 HAHAITHINKNOT
Member since 2010 • 403 Posts
[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

[QUOTE="HAHAITHINKNOT"]Yes, American hobos are special in that they subsist purely on booze.ghoklebutter

I'm Glad we can agree on that.

You agree on a sweeping generalization? :?

Not to mention a denial of biological fact! He's special, our Snipes ; D
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mattbbpl

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#171 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 23357 Posts

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]She makes it sound all well and good by saying that there is nothing wrong in helping other people, but if one really reads what she's saying, she is effectively saying that as long as one assures oneself that a person is not "worthy" of one's help then there is nothing wrong with not giving that person help. Couple this in with her rather clear apathy towards the plight of the impoverished and the way in which she effectively ties together poverty with failure and the implications in what she has to say seem rather evident to me.

bobaban

So you think its fine to help the bum on the street that asks you for food money only to go spend it on booze? She has a point, some people aren't worthy of help.

I can't recall who originally made the statement so I can't, unfortunately, give credit where it's due, but the statement below sums up my feelings on the subject: [QUOTE="forgotten"]I struggled with this question for a long time - How do I know that the money I give to the man isn't going to be used for booze or drugs? Finally, I came to the conclusion that it doesn't matter - if some alcohol is what that person needs to make it through his day, then my dollar was well-spent.

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HAHAITHINKNOT

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#172 HAHAITHINKNOT
Member since 2010 • 403 Posts

Uhmm....Yes I can. Because none have been proven to be Gay ;)

Snipes_2

Absence of evidence is evidence of absence now? Haha, I wonder what else I could apply that to...

addendum: lol gay as proper noun.

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Snipes_2

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#173 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

How does this quote support your notion that her argument was that giving alcoholics is a waste?

GreySeal9

"Desires, Feelings, Whims or the needs of irrational brutes"? Maybe because alcoholism is a Feeling, and Desire for alcohol?

Just because alcoholism involves feelings and desires does not mean that her argument centered on alcoholics.

Her argument undoubtedly promoted selfishness as a virtue. I don't see why anybody would waste mental energy trying to deny that.

I never said it centered on Alcoholics...and if you read the quote it promotes not giving your money to people who will waste it. You can call it selfish if you like..Read my edit too though.
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Snipes_2

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#174 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

Uhmm....Yes I can. Because none have been proven to be Gay ;)

HAHAITHINKNOT

Absence of evidence is evidence of absence now? Haha, I wonder what else I could apply that to...

addendum: lol gay as proper noun.

If they are not proven to be Gay I guess we should just assume they are?
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Snipes_2

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#175 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"] I'm Glad we can agree on that.

HAHAITHINKNOT

You agree on a sweeping generalization? :?

Not to mention a denial of biological fact! He's special, our Snipes ; D

Unfortunately your sarcasm detector needs a fix.

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Snipes_2

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#176 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]You havent proven to me how homeless people in the US are different than those in Greece, though so.....

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

[QUOTE="HAHAITHINKNOT"]Yes, American hobos are special in that they subsist purely on booze.Teenaged

I'm Glad we can agree on that.

You used sarcasm...

Enjoy: http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/social/Module10DHomeless/Module10D.html

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GreySeal9

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#177 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

[QUOTE="GreySeal9"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] "Desires, Feelings, Whims or the needs of irrational brutes"? Maybe because alcoholism is a Feeling, and Desire for alcohol?Snipes_2

Just because alcoholism involves feelings and desires does not mean that her argument centered on alcoholics.

Her argument undoubtedly promoted selfishness as a virtue. I don't see why anybody would waste mental energy trying to deny that.

I never said it centered on Alcoholics...and if you read the quote it promotes not giving your money to people who will waste it. You can call it selfish if you like..Read my edit too though.

Jesus Christ.

I did not say that giving money to people who will waste=selfishness. Why are twisting my words?

I said that the argument present in her philosophy holds selfishness up as a virtue. What is so hard to understand about that?

You keep trying to make it seem like this is just some case of a liberal blasting Rand as selfish, but what I'm trying to say to say is Rand idn't think there was anything wrong with selfishness. In fact, she though it was a virtue.

Why do you keep trying to bring these discussions down to an infantile level? This is not a case of liberals simply blasting her, it is the acknowledgment that Rand saw selfishness in a positive light.

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HAHAITHINKNOT

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#178 HAHAITHINKNOT
Member since 2010 • 403 Posts
[QUOTE="HAHAITHINKNOT"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

Uhmm....Yes I can. Because none have been proven to be Gay ;)

Snipes_2

Absence of evidence is evidence of absence now? Haha, I wonder what else I could apply that to...

addendum: lol gay as proper noun.

If they are not proven to be Gay I guess we should just assume they are?

Well, let's think - there are over 10000 named saints (source: catholic.org). Even assuming a non-homosexuality rate of 99.99%, which is of course a grotesque overestimate, the chance of none being gay would only be about 37%. So it's overwhelmingly likely that some were gay
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HAHAITHINKNOT

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#179 HAHAITHINKNOT
Member since 2010 • 403 Posts

[QUOTE="HAHAITHINKNOT"][QUOTE="ghoklebutter"] You agree on a sweeping generalization? :?Snipes_2

Not to mention a denial of biological fact! He's special, our Snipes ; D

Unfortunately your sarcasm detector needs a fix.

No no, just yours. ;>
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Teenaged

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#180 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts

Enjoy: http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/social/Module10DHomeless/Module10D.html

Snipes_2

Um care to point out in all this what I am looking for?

I wont read all that.

Also this is simply saying (from what I gather by skimming it) that many homeless people have drinking problems.

That alone doesnt prove how those homeless people are not worth some help.

What you and bobapan said though is that a homeless person would go and buy alcohol the minute he/she gets the money.

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Snipes_2

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#181 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="HAHAITHINKNOT"]Absence of evidence is evidence of absence now? Haha, I wonder what else I could apply that to...

addendum: lol gay as proper noun.

HAHAITHINKNOT

If they are not proven to be Gay I guess we should just assume they are?

Well, let's think - there are over 10000 named saints (source: catholic.org). Even assuming a non-homosexuality rate of 99.99%, which is of course a grotesque overestimate, the chance of none being gay would only be about 37%. So it's overwhelmingly likely that some were gay

You...do know most Saints did not live a Sedentary lifestyle and had no companions right? Don't you think SOMETHING would have come up if they were in fact gay

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GreySeal9

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#182 GreySeal9
Member since 2010 • 28247 Posts

There should be rule that when in an argument, users are required to provide an argument explaining why their link helps their argument. The link spamming gets so tiresome.

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Theokhoth

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#183 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts
No gay saints, Snipes? Arguing with reality again?
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HAHAITHINKNOT

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#184 HAHAITHINKNOT
Member since 2010 • 403 Posts

[QUOTE="HAHAITHINKNOT"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"] If they are not proven to be Gay I guess we should just assume they are? Snipes_2

Well, let's think - there are over 10000 named saints (source: catholic.org). Even assuming a non-homosexuality rate of 99.99%, which is of course a grotesque overestimate, the chance of none being gay would only be about 37%. So it's overwhelmingly likely that some were gay

You...do know most Saints did not live a Sedentary lifestyle and had no companions right? Don't you think SOMETHING would have come up if they were in fact gay

No, not really. Basic probability says no.

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Snipes_2

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#185 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

Enjoy: http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/social/Module10DHomeless/Module10D.html

Teenaged

Um care to point out in all this what I am looking for?

I wont read all that.

Also this is simply saying (from what I gather by skimming it) that many homeless people have drinking problems.

That alone doesnt prove how those homeless people are not worth some help.

What you and bobapan said though is that a homeless person would go and buy alcohol the minute he/she gets the money.

I just posted a Link showing that a majority of Homeless people are Alcoholics. I think it's reasonable to assume that they can go to a soup kitchen for food and spend the money you gave them on Alcohol.
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#186 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts

[QUOTE="HAHAITHINKNOT"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"] If they are not proven to be Gay I guess we should just assume they are? Snipes_2

Well, let's think - there are over 10000 named saints (source: catholic.org). Even assuming a non-homosexuality rate of 99.99%, which is of course a grotesque overestimate, the chance of none being gay would only be about 37%. So it's overwhelmingly likely that some were gay

You...do know most Saints did not live a Sedentary lifestyle and had no companions right? Don't you think SOMETHING would have come up if they were in fact gay

Yeah, I think something came up a lot. . .
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#187 HAHAITHINKNOT
Member since 2010 • 403 Posts
[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

[QUOTE="HAHAITHINKNOT"]Well, let's think - there are over 10000 named saints (source: catholic.org). Even assuming a non-homosexuality rate of 99.99%, which is of course a grotesque overestimate, the chance of none being gay would only be about 37%. So it's overwhelmingly likely that some were gayTheokhoth

You...do know most Saints did not live a Sedentary lifestyle and had no companions right? Don't you think SOMETHING would have come up if they were in fact gay

Yeah, I think something came up a lot. . .

I get it!
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#188 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

[QUOTE="HAHAITHINKNOT"]Well, let's think - there are over 10000 named saints (source: catholic.org). Even assuming a non-homosexuality rate of 99.99%, which is of course a grotesque overestimate, the chance of none being gay would only be about 37%. So it's overwhelmingly likely that some were gayHAHAITHINKNOT

You...do know most Saints did not live a Sedentary lifestyle and had no companions right? Don't you think SOMETHING would have come up if they were in fact gay

No, not really. Basic probability says no.

You're really trying to say that some of the Saints were Gay Really? Can you give me some sort of proof for this? Aside from one guy being debunked by several other historians?
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#189 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

Enjoy: http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/social/Module10DHomeless/Module10D.html

Snipes_2

Um care to point out in all this what I am looking for?

I wont read all that.

Also this is simply saying (from what I gather by skimming it) that many homeless people have drinking problems.

That alone doesnt prove how those homeless people are not worth some help.

What you and bobapan said though is that a homeless person would go and buy alcohol the minute he/she gets the money.

I just posted a Link showing that a majority of Homeless people are Alcoholics. I think it's reasonable to assume that they can go to a soup kitchen for food and spend the money you gave them on Alcohol.

And did someone say that many homeless people dont deal with alcoholism?

You on the other hand implied (by supporting bobapan's claim) that a homeless person will rush to buy booze in stead of food when he gets money, which in turn implies that they are not worth some help (which could be non-monetary).

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#190 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 23357 Posts
[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

Enjoy: http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/social/Module10DHomeless/Module10D.html

Snipes_2

Um care to point out in all this what I am looking for?

I wont read all that.

Also this is simply saying (from what I gather by skimming it) that many homeless people have drinking problems.

That alone doesnt prove how those homeless people are not worth some help.

What you and bobapan said though is that a homeless person would go and buy alcohol the minute he/she gets the money.

I just posted a Link showing that a majority of Homeless people are Alcoholics. I think it's reasonable to assume that they can go to a soup kitchen for food and spend the money you gave them on Alcohol.

from your own article:

"Nearly one-half of homeless men (47%) and 16% of homeless women also experience alcohol use disorders (Johnson, 1995)"

That's not a majority.
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#191 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts
No gay saints, Snipes? Arguing with reality again?Theokhoth
That site tries to use out of Context Bible Quotes to support its claims. "They Hugged" = Instantly Gay I don't think so.
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#192 HAHAITHINKNOT
Member since 2010 • 403 Posts

[QUOTE="HAHAITHINKNOT"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] You...do know most Saints did not live a Sedentary lifestyle and had no companions right? Don't you think SOMETHING would have come up if they were in fact gay

Snipes_2

No, not really. Basic probability says no.

You're really trying to say that some of the Saints were Gay Really? Can you give me some sort of proof for this? Aside from one guy being debunked by several other historians?

I've already given you a calculation, haven't I? How about we try that with more reasonable figures - let's say, for example, 2% of the population is gay - a very conservative (and indeed Conservative!) estimate. We find using this that the chance of none of the saints being gay is about 0.98^10000=10^-88. Now, just to put that into perspective, that's about a hundred million times less likely than picking an atom at random from the universe, and then picking another atom, and them both being the SAME ATOM. It's so unfathomably, crushingly improbable that it alone means you are wrong.

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#193 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]Um care to point out in all this what I am looking for?

I wont read all that.

Also this is simply saying (from what I gather by skimming it) that many homeless people have drinking problems.

That alone doesnt prove how those homeless people are not worth some help.

What you and bobapan said though is that a homeless person would go and buy alcohol the minute he/she gets the money.

Teenaged

I just posted a Link showing that a majority of Homeless people are Alcoholics. I think it's reasonable to assume that they can go to a soup kitchen for food and spend the money you gave them on Alcohol.

And did someone say that many homeless people dont deal with alcoholism?

You on the other hand implied (by supporting bobapan's claim) that a homeless person will rush to buy booze in stead of food when he gets money, which in turn implies that they are not worth some help (which could be non-monetary).

Why would they spend it on food when they can go to a soup kitchen for free?
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#194 Theokhoth
Member since 2008 • 36799 Posts
[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]No gay saints, Snipes? Arguing with reality again?Snipes_2
That site tries to use out of Context Bible Quotes to support its claims. "They Hugged" = Instantly Gay I don't think so.

Um, no, it uses, in some cases, such as that of Sts. Polyeuctus and Nearchus, history. Two early martyrs who were paired together by early Christians as a same-sex couple, and invoked as such in the "adelphopoiia" ceremonies, recently discussed by historian John Boswell as indicating a Christian tradition of exclusive and publicly recognized same-sex unions. St. Polyeuctus had a huge church, modeled after the Temple of Solomon, built in his name in 6th century Constantinople.
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#195 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="HAHAITHINKNOT"]No, not really. Basic probability says no.

HAHAITHINKNOT

You're really trying to say that some of the Saints were Gay Really? Can you give me some sort of proof for this? Aside from one guy being debunked by several other historians?

I've already given you a calculation, haven't I? How about we try that with more reasonable figures - let's say, for example, 2% of the population is gay - a very conservative (and indeed Conservative!) estimate. We find using this that the chance of none of the saints being gay is about 0.98^10000=10^-88. Now, just to put that into perspective, that's about a hundred million times less likely than picking an atom at random from the universe, and then picking another atom, and then both being the SAME ATOM. It's so unfathomably, crushingly improbable that it alone means you are wrong.

You're using today's population in Comparison to Hundreds of years ago? You can continue to state I'm wrong without backing up your claims, just keep at it, you may one day ;)

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#196 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] I just posted a Link showing that a majority of Homeless people are Alcoholics. I think it's reasonable to assume that they can go to a soup kitchen for food and spend the money you gave them on Alcohol. Snipes_2

And did someone say that many homeless people dont deal with alcoholism?

You on the other hand implied (by supporting bobapan's claim) that a homeless person will rush to buy booze in stead of food when he gets money, which in turn implies that they are not worth some help (which could be non-monetary).

Why would they spend it on food when they can go to a soup kitchen for free?

Not all homeless people live close to homeless people's shelters which provide food for them.

In fact I dont even know how many in order for the existence of those shelters to be any indication.

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#197 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts
[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]No gay saints, Snipes? Arguing with reality again?Theokhoth
That site tries to use out of Context Bible Quotes to support its claims. "They Hugged" = Instantly Gay I don't think so.

Um, no, it uses, in some cases, such as that of Sts. Polyeuctus and Nearchus, history. Two early martyrs who were paired together by early Christians as a same-sex couple, and invoked as such in the "adelphopoiia" ceremonies, recently discussed by historian John Boswell as indicating a Christian tradition of exclusive and publicly recognized same-sex unions. St. Polyeuctus had a huge church, modeled after the Temple of Solomon, built in his name in 6th century Constantinople.

John Boswell? The same guy that several other Historians challenged? And: "he strongly disagreed with his church's stated opposition to homosexual behavior and relationships. To a certain degree much of the work and research Boswell did regarding the Christian church's historical relationship with homosexuality can be seen as an attempt to reconcile his sexual orientation with his faith."
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#198 Ace6301
Member since 2005 • 21389 Posts

[QUOTE="HAHAITHINKNOT"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"] You're really trying to say that some of the Saints were Gay Really? Can you give me some sort of proof for this? Aside from one guy being debunked by several other historians?Snipes_2

I've already given you a calculation, haven't I? How about we try that with more reasonable figures - let's say, for example, 2% of the population is gay - a very conservative (and indeed Conservative!) estimate. We find using this that the chance of none of the saints being gay is about 0.98^10000=10^-88. Now, just to put that into perspective, that's about a hundred million times less likely than picking an atom at random from the universe, and then picking another atom, and then both being the SAME ATOM. It's so unfathomably, crushingly improbable that it alone means you are wrong.

You're using today's population in Comparison to Hundreds of years ago? You can continue to state I'm wrong without backing up your claims, just keep at it, you may one day ;)

Wait are you making the claim that the amount of homosexuals per capita has increased throughout history? Link.
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#199 Snipes_2
Member since 2009 • 17126 Posts

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]And did someone say that many homeless people dont deal with alcoholism?

You on the other hand implied (by supporting bobapan's claim) that a homeless person will rush to buy booze in stead of food when he gets money, which in turn implies that they are not worth some help (which could be non-monetary).

Teenaged

Why would they spend it on food when they can go to a soup kitchen for free?

Not all homeless people live close to homeless people's shelters which provide food for them.

In fact I dont even know how many in order for the existence of those shelters to be any indication.

There are Soup Kitchens all over New York City.
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HAHAITHINKNOT

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#200 HAHAITHINKNOT
Member since 2010 • 403 Posts

[QUOTE="HAHAITHINKNOT"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"] You're really trying to say that some of the Saints were Gay Really? Can you give me some sort of proof for this? Aside from one guy being debunked by several other historians?Snipes_2

I've already given you a calculation, haven't I? How about we try that with more reasonable figures - let's say, for example, 2% of the population is gay - a very conservative (and indeed Conservative!) estimate. We find using this that the chance of none of the saints being gay is about 0.98^10000=10^-88. Now, just to put that into perspective, that's about a hundred million times less likely than picking an atom at random from the universe, and then picking another atom, and then both being the SAME ATOM. It's so unfathomably, crushingly improbable that it alone means you are wrong.

You're using today's population in Comparison to Hundreds of years ago? You can continue to state I'm wrong without backing up your claims, just keep at it, you may one day ;)

:lol: You're claming the rate of homosexuality is significantly different than it was then? And yes, I'm happy to state that you're wrong when the chance of you being right is less than chance of you winning the lottery more times than there are atoms in the universe. IN A ROW. :lol: