Bin laden shows sympathy for the US people and offers advice
This topic is locked from further discussion.
Uh, yes Al Qaeda did attack us because we are a non-Muslim state that is not operating under Sharia law. Al Qaeda is not a rational organization that has attainable goals that can be met, they are insane, transnationalistic Sunni fundamentalists. Now, you are absolutely right that we are not innocent when it comes to oppression in the middle east, but Al Qaeda isn't as concerned about that as it is about "reviving" the world from Jahiliyyah.-Sun_Tzu-Then why the U.S? There are certainly far more secular countries in Europe. Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland... I doubt Osama attacked the U.S on grounds that it is not a Muslim nation and because they have too much "freedom". And hypothetically speaking if Osama did attack the U.S because it isn't a Muslim nation, why wouldn't he make his intentions clear? Certainly a devoted and fanatical Muslim would have no problem professes his true purpose and dedication to his faith.
[QUOTE="sikanderahmed"]
[QUOTE="xaos"] *psst* There is disagreement among people who call themselves Muslims what the fundamentals of Islam are...Theokhoth
really? so what fundamentals do these muslims disagree on?
How about the definition (and execution) of a Jihad?
there is no disagreement when it comes to jihad.
[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]
[QUOTE="sikanderahmed"]
really? so what fundamentals do these muslims disagree on?
sikanderahmed
How about the definition (and execution) of a Jihad?
there is no disagreement when it comes to jihad.
Utterly untrue, since some regard it as battle in the world in perceived defense or support of Islam and others regard it as an internal spiritual struggle.
Then why the U.S? There are certainly far more secular countries in Europe. Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland... I doubt Osama attacked the U.S on grounds that it is not a Muslim nation and because they have too much "freedom". And hypothetically speaking if Osama did attack the U.S because it isn't a Muslim nation, why wouldn't he make his intentions clear? Certainly a devoted and fanatical Muslim would have no problem professes his true purpose and dedication to his faith. Why did we attack the U.S.? Simple, the U.S. is seen as the superpower of the western world and these people despise the west. And he has made it pretty clear. Just read the book Ma'alim fi al-Tariq by Sayyid Qutb and you would get a better understanding of the ideology of these people.[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Uh, yes Al Qaeda did attack us because we are a non-Muslim state that is not operating under Sharia law. Al Qaeda is not a rational organization that has attainable goals that can be met, they are insane, transnationalistic Sunni fundamentalists. Now, you are absolutely right that we are not innocent when it comes to oppression in the middle east, but Al Qaeda isn't as concerned about that as it is about "reviving" the world from Jahiliyyah.GettingTired
He wuvs me? :cry:
[QUOTE="sikanderahmed"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]
How about the definition (and execution) of a Jihad?
xaos
there is no disagreement when it comes to jihad.
Utterly untrue, since some regard it as battle in the world in perceived defense or support of Islam and others regard it as an internal spiritual struggle.sometimes i wish I had 3 hands...so i could initiate a triple hand facepalm when i read a post like yours. you seriously need to learn more about jihad.
Funny, an ENITRE COUNTRY followed a mass murdering nutter in a house that is white.Great, let's take advice from a mass-murdering nutter who lives in a remote cave in the middle of nowhere and has very few friends.
bangell99
[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]
[QUOTE="sikanderahmed"]
really? so what fundamentals do these muslims disagree on?
sikanderahmed
How about the definition (and execution) of a Jihad?
there is no disagreement when it comes to jihad.
So all Muslims believe that "[killing] the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim"? I would hope not, considering how I have muslim friends.If it takes total annihilation to get peace, I can't wait for Israel and the anti-Israel countries(I didn't state any to avoid getting factual discrepancies) to get into an all out war. Osama is not going to rest until Israel is wiped out, and Israel is taking preemptive action... it's not gonna end until one side is completely destroyed. Lets do this. th3warr1or
well if it does come to that i don't like the 5 million people of Israels chances :(.
[QUOTE="sikanderahmed"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]
How about the definition (and execution) of a Jihad?
-Sun_Tzu-
there is no disagreement when it comes to jihad.
So all Muslims believe that "[killing] the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim"? I would hope not, considering how I have muslim friends.who exactly said that?
Then why the U.S? There are certainly far more secular countries in Europe. Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland... I doubt Osama attacked the U.S on grounds that it is not a Muslim nation and because they have too much "freedom". And hypothetically speaking if Osama did attack the U.S because it isn't a Muslim nation, why wouldn't he make his intentions clear? Certainly a devoted and fanatical Muslim would have no problem professes his true purpose and dedication to his faith. Exactly. I'll admit that Islam is endowed with underlying violent themes throughout the Qur'an (as is any religion...yes even Christianity, but that's another debate); however, if one was to interpret the Qur'an literally, it calls for the annihilation of ALL infidels, as in all non extremist muslims, which is pretty much every non middle-eastern country in the world. Why did they choose the U.S. as their main target in their holy war, we provoked them by setting up bases in Saudi Arabia, bombing a plethora of their countries, aiding Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war and then turning on them after their invasion of Kuwait because they didn't sell us oil for the price our corporate lobbyists saw fit, economically oppressing many of their countries as well. You must accept the fact that we don't invade middle eastern countries or any countries at all in order to "liberate" their people, the government could give a sh!t about their people, it's all in the interests of the government and the lobbyists that run it. One example of a country we never helped was Cambodia during Pol Pot in the 70s, we knew full well what was going on, nothing to gain from invasion of Cambodia again, so we let them die. America isn't the world liberator, sorry.[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Uh, yes Al Qaeda did attack us because we are a non-Muslim state that is not operating under Sharia law. Al Qaeda is not a rational organization that has attainable goals that can be met, they are insane, transnationalistic Sunni fundamentalists. Now, you are absolutely right that we are not innocent when it comes to oppression in the middle east, but Al Qaeda isn't as concerned about that as it is about "reviving" the world from Jahiliyyah.GettingTired
Utterly untrue, since some regard it as battle in the world in perceived defense or support of Islam and others regard it as an internal spiritual struggle.[QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="sikanderahmed"]
there is no disagreement when it comes to jihad.
sikanderahmed
sometimes i wish I had 3 hands...so i could initiate a triple hand facepalm when i read a post like yours. you seriously need to learn more about jihad.
Perhaps you should educate; as I said, I am not a Muslim, but my readings from outside the faith, particularly Karen Armstrong's The Battle for God have indicated that this is very much an area of active dispute among Muslims. Since you apparently are a canonical authority on the subject, rather than just talking about how wrong I am, you can explain what the correct meaning of Jihad is. You might also want to explain to other Muslims what they are doing wrong.[QUOTE="GettingTired"]Then why the U.S? There are certainly far more secular countries in Europe. Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland... I doubt Osama attacked the U.S on grounds that it is not a Muslim nation and because they have too much "freedom". And hypothetically speaking if Osama did attack the U.S because it isn't a Muslim nation, why wouldn't he make his intentions clear? Certainly a devoted and fanatical Muslim would have no problem professes his true purpose and dedication to his faith. Exactly. I'll admit that Islam is endowed with underlying violent themes throughout the Qur'an (as is any religion...yes even Christianity, but that's another debate); however, if one was to interpret the Qur'an literally, it calls for the annihilation of ALL infidels, as in all non extremist muslims, which is pretty much every non middle-eastern country in the world. Why did they choose the U.S. as their main target in their holy war, we provoked them by setting up bases in Saudi Arabia, bombing a plethora of their countries, aiding Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war and then turning on them after their invasion of Kuwait because they didn't sell us oil for the price our corporate lobbyists saw fit, economically oppressing many of their countries as well. You must accept the fact that we don't invade middle eastern countries or any countries at all in order to "liberate" their people, the government could give a sh!t about their people, it's all in the interests of the government and the lobbyists that run it. One example of a country we never helped was Cambodia during Pol Pot in the 70s, we knew full well what was going on, nothing to gain from invasion of Cambodia again, so we let them die. America isn't the world liberator, sorry.[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Uh, yes Al Qaeda did attack us because we are a non-Muslim state that is not operating under Sharia law. Al Qaeda is not a rational organization that has attainable goals that can be met, they are insane, transnationalistic Sunni fundamentalists. Now, you are absolutely right that we are not innocent when it comes to oppression in the middle east, but Al Qaeda isn't as concerned about that as it is about "reviving" the world from Jahiliyyah.sacredtext62
ummm sorry but Quran does not call for annihilation of all infidels....yeah yeah you gonna go and dig up a verse from chapter 9 or something....which will only prove how little you understand. If Quran demands the killing of infidels then why would it also say to call infidels to islam through beautiful teaching? and also say that infidels shouldnt be forced to accept islam?
Only Osama Bin Laden can bring Liberals and Conservatives together.
Of course, we'd all be coming together to watch him burn to death tied to a stake, but that's just splitting hairs...
[QUOTE="GettingTired"]Then why the U.S? There are certainly far more secular countries in Europe. Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland... I doubt Osama attacked the U.S on grounds that it is not a Muslim nation and because they have too much "freedom". And hypothetically speaking if Osama did attack the U.S because it isn't a Muslim nation, why wouldn't he make his intentions clear? Certainly a devoted and fanatical Muslim would have no problem professes his true purpose and dedication to his faith. Exactly. I'll admit that Islam is endowed with underlying violent themes throughout the Qur'an (as is any religion...yes even Christianity, but that's another debate); however, if one was to interpret the Qur'an literally, it calls for the annihilation of ALL infidels, as in all non extremist muslims, which is pretty much every non middle-eastern country in the world. Why did they choose the U.S. as their main target in their holy war, we provoked them by setting up bases in Saudi Arabia, bombing a plethora of their countries, aiding Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war and then turning on them after their invasion of Kuwait because they didn't sell us oil for the price our corporate lobbyists saw fit, economically oppressing many of their countries as well. You must accept the fact that we don't invade middle eastern countries or any countries at all in order to "liberate" their people, the government could give a sh!t about their people, it's all in the interests of the government and the lobbyists that run it. One example of a country we never helped was Cambodia during Pol Pot in the 70s, we knew full well what was going on, nothing to gain from invasion of Cambodia again, so we let them die. America isn't the world liberator, sorry. They have executed attacks in other countries....[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Uh, yes Al Qaeda did attack us because we are a non-Muslim state that is not operating under Sharia law. Al Qaeda is not a rational organization that has attainable goals that can be met, they are insane, transnationalistic Sunni fundamentalists. Now, you are absolutely right that we are not innocent when it comes to oppression in the middle east, but Al Qaeda isn't as concerned about that as it is about "reviving" the world from Jahiliyyah.sacredtext62
Osama Bin Laden, the man you think can be negotiated with.[QUOTE="sikanderahmed"]
who exactly said that?
-Sun_Tzu-
from your link:
"(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?
As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:
(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us."
yeah that makes it clear why he wants muslims to kill infidels...coz he believes you attacked us first. dont see whats wrong with that....though i would say killing of american civilians is going too far coz islam does not allow killing of civilians even during war.
Well maybe his act of political outreach shows the war in afghanistan is successfully working? He must be losing support and now needs to present a more political stand point.
[QUOTE="sikanderahmed"]Okay, so obviously then there are disagreements in Islam concerning jihad...i would say killing of american civilians is going too far coz islam does not allow killing of civilians even during war.
-Sun_Tzu-
umm no there arent...hes not basing the killings of americans on islam
Edit: btw i didnt find that "killing american civilians is a duty of every muslims" in that link you posted
Our relationship with Israel doesn't mean a damn thing vis-a-vis Al Qaeda. We could be the worst enemy of Israel and it wouldn't make a difference to them. -Sun_Tzu-of course itd make a huge difference....they would try and blow isreal off the map and we wont stop them...
Okay, so obviously then there are disagreements in Islam concerning jihad...[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="sikanderahmed"]
i would say killing of american civilians is going too far coz islam does not allow killing of civilians even during war.
sikanderahmed
umm no there arent...hes not basing the killings of americans on islam
"The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, 'and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,' and 'fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah.'"
[QUOTE="Espada12"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]Our relationship with Israel doesn't mean a damn thing vis-a-vis Al Qaeda. We could be the worst enemy of Israel and it wouldn't make a difference to them. -Sun_Tzu-
So wrong...
How so...Why not fully read that letter you linked into this thread?
This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, 'and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,' and 'fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah.-Sun_Tzu-
i cant find that quote in the link you posted. anyways so bin laden provideda verse from quran which states "and fight pagans all together AS THEY FIGHT YOU ALL TOGETHER".....so ofcourse thats in accordance with islam. if they fight you, you fight back, if they dont fight you, then you dont fight them. so yeh wheres the problem?
Are you kidding? The main reason Osama attacked the U.S. is because we are not a radical, fundamentalist Sunni nation operating under Sharia law. This statement just makes you look like a clueless man.[QUOTE="Stesilaus"]
You gotta admit it: Osama's stated pretexts for hostility against the US are more credible than Bush's pretexts for the Iraq invasion.
Osama's claims are demonstrably true.
Bush's proved demonstrably false.
-Sun_Tzu-
How so...[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="Espada12"]
So wrong...
Espada12
Why not fully read that letter you linked into this thread?
I did read it, and in it Osama used the quran to justify killing every American on the face of the world. I also linked another message from Bin Laden:"You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver
What Al Qaeda wants is oppressive totalitarianism. That is their ultimate goal.
[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]Our relationship with Israel doesn't mean a damn thing vis-a-vis Al Qaeda. We could be the worst enemy of Israel and it wouldn't make a difference to them. rygu79
You watch to much Fox news. Please stop.
yes... i have to agree Sun_Tzu is out of his mind.[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, 'and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,' and 'fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah.
sikanderahmed
i cant find that quote in the link you posted. anyways so bin laden provideda verse from quran which states "and fight pagans all together AS THEY FIGHT YOU ALL TOGETHER".....so ofcourse thats in accordance with islam. if they fight you, you fight back, if they dont fight you, then you dont fight them. so yeh wheres the problem? ...so then there is disagreement in Islam surrounding Jihad...unless you agree that every westerner deserves to be killed...
[QUOTE="Espada12"]
[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] How so...-Sun_Tzu-
Why not fully read that letter you linked into this thread?
I did read it, and in it Osama used the quran to justify killing every American on the face of the world. I also linked another message from Bin Laden:"You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver
What Al Qaeda wants is oppressive totalitarianism. That is their ultimate goal.
i didnt find the other quote in the link you posted,.....also what exactly are you trying to say with thequote you posted above?
I did read it, and in it Osama used the quran to justify killing every American on the face of the world. I also linked another message from Bin Laden:
"You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver
What Al Qaeda wants is oppressive totalitarianism. That is their ultimate goal.
-Sun_Tzu-
He never said that was the reason for the attacks, just critism of thier practices. Here's the real reason he stated.
As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:
(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.
a) You attacked us in Palestine:
(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.
(ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.
I could link the entire thing but it's too much. Are you just picking and choosing what you want to see?
You can't blame Sun Tzu for being misinformed about these things. Nobody here really knows the way things work. We're pretty much guessing based on vids and letters.
Anyway US screwed up over there, Osama screws up over in the USA, then they both start hitting each other until one of them runs out of soldiers.
[QUOTE="sikanderahmed"]
[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, 'and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,' and 'fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah.
-Sun_Tzu-
i cant find that quote in the link you posted. anyways so bin laden provideda verse from quran which states "and fight pagans all together AS THEY FIGHT YOU ALL TOGETHER".....so ofcourse thats in accordance with islam. if they fight you, you fight back, if they dont fight you, then you dont fight them. so yeh wheres the problem? ...so then there is disagreement in Islam surrounding Jihad...unless you agree that every westerner deserves to be killed...
if that was the case you would see a alternate history where there was a holocaust of europeans in europe.
[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]Are you kidding? The main reason Osama attacked the U.S. is because we are not a radical, fundamentalist Sunni nation operating under Sharia law. This statement just makes you look like a clueless man. A clueless man who in this case is correct...[QUOTE="Stesilaus"]
You gotta admit it: Osama's stated pretexts for hostility against the US are more credible than Bush's pretexts for the Iraq invasion.
Osama's claims are demonstrably true.
Bush's proved demonstrably false.
mixedplanet
"(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?
(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.
(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.
It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.
(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.
(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.
(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.
We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.
(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:
(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?
(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.
(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.
(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver
Let's not be naive about what Al Qaeda's ultimate goals are.
[QUOTE="sikanderahmed"]
[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, 'and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,' and 'fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah.
-Sun_Tzu-
i cant find that quote in the link you posted. anyways so bin laden provideda verse from quran which states "and fight pagans all together AS THEY FIGHT YOU ALL TOGETHER".....so ofcourse thats in accordance with islam. if they fight you, you fight back, if they dont fight you, then you dont fight them. so yeh wheres the problem? ...so then there is disagreement in Islam surrounding Jihad...unless you agree that every westerner deserves to be killed...
nope there isnt any disagreement .....if civilians dont fight you...you dont fight them ^^
...so then there is disagreement in Islam surrounding Jihad...unless you agree that every westerner deserves to be killed...[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]
[QUOTE="sikanderahmed"]
i cant find that quote in the link you posted. anyways so bin laden provideda verse from quran which states "and fight pagans all together AS THEY FIGHT YOU ALL TOGETHER".....so ofcourse thats in accordance with islam. if they fight you, you fight back, if they dont fight you, then you dont fight them. so yeh wheres the problem?sikanderahmed
nope there isnt any disagreement .....if civilians dont fight you...you dont fight them ^^
Not according to Al Qaeda...[QUOTE="_7h0m_"][QUOTE="rygu79"]yes... i have to agree Sun_Tzu is out of his mind. You can't blame Sun Tzu for being misinformed about these things. Nobody here really knows the way things work. We're pretty much guessing based on vids and letters. And how am I misinformed, exactly?You watch to much Fox news. Please stop.
KungfuKitten
Then were the people killed in the WTC combatants? If not, it still seems like there is disagreement. Regardless of specifics, it's a pretty amazing claim to say that every single person who follows Islam interprets it exactly identically.nope there isnt any disagreement .....if civilians dont fight you...you dont fight them ^^
sikanderahmed
This statement just makes you look like a clueless man. A clueless man who in this case is correct...[QUOTE="mixedplanet"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Are you kidding? The main reason Osama attacked the U.S. is because we are not a radical, fundamentalist Sunni nation operating under Sharia law.
-Sun_Tzu-
"(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?
(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.
(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.
It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.
(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.
(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.
(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.
We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.
(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:
(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?
(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.
(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.
(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver
Let's not be naive about what Al Qaeda's ultimate goals are.
oh geeezevery muslim (including bin laden)wishes that non-muslims should become muslims. he is just trying to give you an advice and isnt saying "you convert or we will invadez you"
[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]
I did read it, and in it Osama used the quran to justify killing every American on the face of the world. I also linked another message from Bin Laden:
"You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver
What Al Qaeda wants is oppressive totalitarianism. That is their ultimate goal.
Espada12
He never said that was the reason for the attacks, just critism of thier practices. Here's the real reason he stated.
As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:
(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.
a) You attacked us in Palestine:
(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.
(ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.
I could link the entire thing but it's too much. Are you just picking and choosing what you want to see?
No, I'm merely quoting their answer to the question "What [is Al Qaeda} calling you to, and what [does Al Qaeda] want from you?"This statement just makes you look like a clueless man. A clueless man who in this case is correct...[QUOTE="mixedplanet"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Are you kidding? The main reason Osama attacked the U.S. is because we are not a radical, fundamentalist Sunni nation operating under Sharia law.
-Sun_Tzu-
"(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?
(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.
(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.
It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.
(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.
(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.
(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.
We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.
(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:
(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?
(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.
(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.
(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver
Let's not be naive about what Al Qaeda's ultimate goals are.
why do you think he is stating these words? its not a riddle you know...[QUOTE="sikanderahmed"]Then were the people killed in the WTC combatants? If not, it still seems like there is disagreement. Regardless of specifics, it's a pretty amazing claim to say that every single person who follows Islam interprets it exactly identically.nope there isnt any disagreement .....if civilians dont fight you...you dont fight them ^^
xaos
im sure i remember bin laden saying he wasnt involved in 9/11.....i dont really believe bin laden planned 9/11...but then the whole conpiracy comes in
Awww We should send him a thank you letter :oops: .... covered with anthrax.
A clueless man who in this case is correct...[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]
[QUOTE="mixedplanet"] This statement just makes you look like a clueless man.sikanderahmed
"(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?
(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.
(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.
It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.
(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.
(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.
(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.
We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.
(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:
(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?
(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.
(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.
(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver
Let's not be naive about what Al Qaeda's ultimate goals are.
oh geeezevery muslim (including bin laden)wishes that non-muslims should become muslims. he is just trying to give you an advice and isnt saying "you convert or we will invadez you"
So are you saying that if we don't do what they want us to do they'll stop their offensive Jihad?[QUOTE="Espada12"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]
I did read it, and in it Osama used the quran to justify killing every American on the face of the world. I also linked another message from Bin Laden:
"You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver
What Al Qaeda wants is oppressive totalitarianism. That is their ultimate goal.
-Sun_Tzu-
He never said that was the reason for the attacks, just critism of thier practices. Here's the real reason he stated.
As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:
(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.
a) You attacked us in Palestine:
(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.
(ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.
I could link the entire thing but it's too much. Are you just picking and choosing what you want to see?
No, I'm merely quoting their answer to the question "What [is Al Qaeda} calling you to, and what [does Al Qaeda] want from you?"Al-Qaeda is calling you to islam and wnats you to pack luggage and get off muslim land. thats what i get from the link you posted. i didnt see anywhere that bin laden wants to eat infidels or anything
You can't blame Sun Tzu for being misinformed about these things. Nobody here really knows the way things work. We're pretty much guessing based on vids and letters. And how am I misinformed, exactly? Well apparently You're not? I'm uninformed. So there's no judgment from my side. It seems we have two different explanations of Al Quaidaojrjras (sp?) motivations in this thread now.[QUOTE="KungfuKitten"][QUOTE="_7h0m_"] yes... i have to agree Sun_Tzu is out of his mind.-Sun_Tzu-
Please Log In to post.
Log in to comment