Well, I guess we can all stop debating and arguing now.Account_27No, people can't accept the fact that not everybody shares their opinion, so I'm afraid that the "debating" will continue.
Can God create a rock he cannot lift?
This topic is locked from further discussion.
by your logic wouldn't he still be most powerful, therefore God?Funny how noone has acknowledged the fact that i have definitely unproved God, so here: i will post it again
Can God create a being equal to itself?
EXACTLY! if god cannot create a being equal to himself then he cannot create himself, which would be the only possible way for him to come in to existence, becuase nothing is more powerful then him, so nothin is powerful enough to create him!!!! thats it, I WIN!
-Predak-
[QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"]Beleiving isn't enough. One must repent from one's sins through Jesus Christ.. You think simply believing will allow anyone to gain entrance into Heaven? Please.So basically no one is going to heaven? Okay then, why should anyone care? That's a good point. Why try and jump when I have no limbs besides my noggin?Those who do believe out of fear would be succumbed to do good works to justify themselves to god because of their fear, but good works will not earn anyone salvation either.
SolidSnake35
[QUOTE="Account_27"]Well, I guess we can all stop debating and arguing now.EboyLOLNo, people can't accept the fact that not everybody shares their opinion, so I'm afraid that the "debating" will continue.
yes, people trying to change peoples opinion over the internet is sad, though when your involved in the agruement you jsut cant stop. strange
Yes, it is supposedly limitless - assuming God exists at all. But if one assumes it is possible for illogical happenings to occur on account of God, one must also admit that it is possible for illogical things to happen in nature. Given that we've explored only a tiny fraction of our universe, and that history has shown that our notions about the principles that govern the universe often end up being wrong, I find it difficult to understand why Creationists claim that God must be behind the creation of the universe simply because we currently do not understand how it could exist infinitely or how it could develop from 'nothing.'
pianist
And until you can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that the universe wasn't "created," being that it wasn't formed by some omnipotent being, religion will continue to exist. The beauty of this is that it is impossible to prove that the universe was created by anything but an omnipotent being because in order to prove that this universe wasn't created by God or a god, you have to be able to understand if anything came before it. This would be impossible to prove, as any universe, singular or plural, wouldn't be detected by any instrument invented in this reality. You would have to bring back proof from that reality to prove to this reality it existed, and such proof would be impossible to detect. Just like God, singular or plural. It is impossible to detect God, but you can supposedly experience "His" creation, just as it is impossible to detect whatever came before this reality.
And, of course, this all assumes that this reality even exists in the physical sense.
[QUOTE="Teh_Law"][QUOTE="-Predak-"]by your logic wouldn't he still be most powerful, therefore God? you assuming that something created himFunny how noone has acknowledged the fact that i have definitely unproved God, so here: i will post it again
Can God create a being equal to itself?
EXACTLY! if god cannot create a being equal to himself then he cannot create himself, which would be the only possible way for him to come in to existence, becuase nothing is more powerful then him, so nothin is powerful enough to create him!!!! thats it, I WIN!
It doesnt matter how powerful he is if it is impossible for him to exist
-Predak-
[QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"]Beleiving isn't enough. One must repent from one's sins through Jesus Christ.. You think simply believing will allow anyone to gain entrance into Heaven? Please.So basically no one is going to heaven? Okay then, why should anyone care?Those who do believe out of fear would be succumbed to do good works to justify themselves to god because of their fear, but good works will not earn anyone salvation either.
SolidSnake35
One can earn salvation through humbling one's self by ackwoledging one's sins and trusting in Jesus Christ as the Jewish messiah to save humanity.
We should care about being saved because it's God's will for us, to be saved and reunited with our Creator, not to indulge in hatred, lust, envy and greed.
[QUOTE="-Predak-"]by your logic wouldn't he still be most powerful, therefore God?Funny how noone has acknowledged the fact that i have definitely unproved God, so here: i will post it again
Can God create a being equal to itself?
EXACTLY! if god cannot create a being equal to himself then he cannot create himself, which would be the only possible way for him to come in to existence, becuase nothing is more powerful then him, so nothin is powerful enough to create him!!!! thats it, I WIN!
:lol::lol:
Teh_Law
God had to be created, how else would he some into existence?
-Predak-
Unless "He" always existed. Can you honestly say that you understand the concept of infinity without using the word "infinity" within its definition? Because that is exactly what God is, infinity. God is all that was, that is, and that will be, within this universe.
And, as an addendum to your edit, explain to me why that is impossible, for something to have always existed.
God had to be created, how else would he some into existence?
(and don't give me that "he was always around" BS, because that is impossible.
-Predak-
The logic! :lol::lol:
[QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="-Predak-"]Please we beg of you, if you have reliable, factual, tangible evidence of a supreme being we would LOVE to hear it. And God enjoys death and suffering, becuase if he wanted religious battles to stop, he would simply come down for one second and show everyone that he is the only one god, and noone would have reason to fight.Ineedtofindyou
Got a ton, you just wouldn't accept it based upon your intelect.
And God already came down as Jesus Christ. Those who don't follow him and repent will be punished for eternity. I think God has this entire circumstance under control.
And these religious wars just use God as a justification for their actions. Can't blame them, can you? ;)
Why will I be punished? I'm not a bad person, yet I'll suffer for all eternity because I don't have faith. I guess the fear of that should make me want to believe, right?No one is good, but God. You are a liar(you've lied, you're called a liar for lieing), you're a thief(you've stolen something, you're called a thief for stealing something) and you've lusted over a women(Jesus said that whosoever looks upon a women, to lust after her is commiting adultrey in his heart. Matt 5:28). You're a liar, a thief and an adulterer at heart. Same goes for everyone else here, including me.
Those are only 3 of the 10 commandments though. There are 7 others pointed at you.
You'll suffer eternity because God won't take an adulterer, a thief and a mliar to heaven.
That's great, but you avoided the main part of my post. People believe out of fear.Beleiving isn't enough. One must repent from one's sins through Jesus Christ.. You think simply believing will allow anyone to gain entrance into Heaven? Please.
Those who do believe out of fear would be succumbed to do good works to justify themselves to god because of their fear, but good works will not earn anyone salvation either.
Islam has basically the same message....why would you believe in christianity over it?What makes more sense? Having God die for humanity for sins or having people die for God through sumbittence?
Jesus Christ is the only way to save ourselves through sin, considering there is full and unconditional pardon. God has laws and we broke them. Christ came down to redeem humanity.
You'll find nothing of the sort in Islam, where there is no reassurance of salvation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnVsBUZQXFM
People die through submittence? So I guess you are just making things up now.....Islam has the same basic message, and has just as much proof of being correct as any other religion, anybody who isn't completely blind can see that.[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"]Beleiving isn't enough. One must repent from one's sins through Jesus Christ.. You think simply believing will allow anyone to gain entrance into Heaven? Please.So basically no one is going to heaven? Okay then, why should anyone care?Those who do believe out of fear would be succumbed to do good works to justify themselves to god because of their fear, but good works will not earn anyone salvation either.
Ineedtofindyou
One can earn salvation through humbling one's self by ackwoledging one's sins and trusting in Jesus Christ as the Jewish messiah to save humanity.
We should care about being saved because it's God's will for us, to be saved and reunited with our Creator, not to indulge in hatred, lust, envy and greed.
I'm going to go back to the fact that Islam has basically the same message and has just as much proof as Christianity.....What makes more sense? Having God die for humanity for sins or having people die for God through sumbittence?
Jesus Christ is the only way to save ourselves through sin, considering there is full and unconditional pardon. God has laws and we broke them. Christ came down to redeem humanity.
You'll find nothing of the sort in Islam, where there is no reassurance of salvation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnVsBUZQXFM
Ineedtofindyou
What makes more sense? Given God's tyrannical nature and beliefs in the Old Testament, it actually doesn't make a whole lot of sense that He would have an abrupt change of heart and suddenly wish to bring every single soul to Heaven. This is a being that was directly or indirectly responsible for killing countless thousands of individuals for displeasing Him, and in so doing condemning them to an eternity of suffering.
Tell me - do you think Hitler would have become a benevolent ruler had he conquered Europe and lived a full life? How about Stalin? Any chance that he would suddenly decide that killing anyone who displeased him was wrong, and would then turn into a loving and benevolent ruler who cares about each and every one of his subjects?
If you answered no to these questions, then you are admitting that it actually makes more sense to assume that God would remain ruthless. God turning into a compassionate being only makes sense for us, because it is the better deal for us. Humans love to believe that things are always working in their favor, regardless of what the circumstances of reality may be telling them.
[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"]Beleiving isn't enough. One must repent from one's sins through Jesus Christ.. You think simply believing will allow anyone to gain entrance into Heaven? Please.So basically no one is going to heaven? Okay then, why should anyone care?Those who do believe out of fear would be succumbed to do good works to justify themselves to god because of their fear, but good works will not earn anyone salvation either.
Ineedtofindyou
One can earn salvation through humbling one's self by ackwoledging one's sins and trusting in Jesus Christ as the Jewish messiah to save humanity.
We should care about being saved because it's God's will for us, to be saved and reunited with our Creator, not to indulge in hatred, lust, envy and greed.
But wait, I never even knew this. Surely there is something wrong here. God needs to start a more in depth advertising campaign if he wants people to do his bidding.[QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="-Predak-"]Please we beg of you, if you have reliable, factual, tangible evidence of a supreme being we would LOVE to hear it. And God enjoys death and suffering, becuase if he wanted religious battles to stop, he would simply come down for one second and show everyone that he is the only one god, and noone would have reason to fight.yoshi-lnex
Got a ton, you just wouldn't accept it based upon your intelect.
And God already came down as Jesus Christ. Those who don't follow him and repent will be punished for eternity. I think God has this entire circumstance under control.
And these religious wars just use God as a justification for their actions. Can't blame them, can you? ;)
Why will I be punished? I'm not a bad person, yet I'll suffer for all eternity because I don't have faith. I guess the fear of that should make me want to believe, right?No one is good, but God. You are a liar(you've lied, you're called a liar for lieing), you're a thief(you've stolen something, you're called a thief for stealing something) and you've lusted over a women(Jesus said that whosoever looks upon a women, to lust after her is commiting adultrey in his heart. Matt 5:28). You're a liar, a thief and an adulterer at heart. Same goes for everyone else here, including me.
Those are only 3 of the 10 commandments though. There are 7 others pointed at you.
You'll suffer eternity because God won't take an adulterer, a thief and a mliar to heaven.
That's great, but you avoided the main part of my post. People believe out of fear.Beleiving isn't enough. One must repent from one's sins through Jesus Christ.. You think simply believing will allow anyone to gain entrance into Heaven? Please.
Those who do believe out of fear would be succumbed to do good works to justify themselves to god because of their fear, but good works will not earn anyone salvation either.
Islam has basically the same message....why would you believe in christianity over it?What makes more sense? Having God die for humanity for sins or having people die for God through sumbittence?
Jesus Christ is the only way to save ourselves through sin, considering there is full and unconditional pardon. God has laws and we broke them. Christ came down to redeem humanity.
You'll find nothing of the sort in Islam, where there is no reassurance of salvation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnVsBUZQXFM
People die through submittence? So I guess you are just making things up now.....Islam has the same basic message, and has just as much proof of being correct as any other religion, anybody who isn't completely blind can see that.The message of Christianity is to be redeemed through God's sacrifice for humanity, thus redeeming us through repentance and allowing us admittance to Heaven.
The message of Islam is to submit to Allah, follow the 5 pillars of Islam and hope you're "good enough" to go to Heaven.
[QUOTE="-Predak-"]Funny how noone has acknowledged the fact that i have definitely unproved God, so here: i will post it again
Can God create a being equal to itself?
EXACTLY! if god cannot create a being equal to himself then he cannot create himself, which would be the only possible way for him to come in to existence, becuase nothing is more powerful then him, so nothin is powerful enough to create him!!!! thats it, I WIN!
God coming into existence by creating himself? Maybe he was just always there? In a rebuttle, Yoshi-innex would reply, "Well why not go one step further and say the universe was always there?", and he may have a point.Ineedtofindyou
Go ahead and believe that.
I will, and it seems that you've given up in debating seeing how you're original points on god being self contradictory lack a counter example.[QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="-Predak-"]Please we beg of you, if you have reliable, factual, tangible evidence of a supreme being we would LOVE to hear it. And God enjoys death and suffering, becuase if he wanted religious battles to stop, he would simply come down for one second and show everyone that he is the only one god, and noone would have reason to fight.Ineedtofindyou
Got a ton, you just wouldn't accept it based upon your intelect.
And God already came down as Jesus Christ. Those who don't follow him and repent will be punished for eternity. I think God has this entire circumstance under control.
And these religious wars just use God as a justification for their actions. Can't blame them, can you? ;)
Why will I be punished? I'm not a bad person, yet I'll suffer for all eternity because I don't have faith. I guess the fear of that should make me want to believe, right?No one is good, but God. You are a liar(you've lied, you're called a liar for lieing), you're a thief(you've stolen something, you're called a thief for stealing something) and you've lusted over a women(Jesus said that whosoever looks upon a women, to lust after her is commiting adultrey in his heart. Matt 5:28). You're a liar, a thief and an adulterer at heart. Same goes for everyone else here, including me.
Those are only 3 of the 10 commandments though. There are 7 others pointed at you.
You'll suffer eternity because God won't take an adulterer, a thief and a mliar to heaven.
That's great, but you avoided the main part of my post. People believe out of fear.Beleiving isn't enough. One must repent from one's sins through Jesus Christ.. You think simply believing will allow anyone to gain entrance into Heaven? Please.
Those who do believe out of fear would be succumbed to do good works to justify themselves to god because of their fear, but good works will not earn anyone salvation either.
Islam has basically the same message....why would you believe in christianity over it?What makes more sense? Having God die for humanity for sins or having people die for God through sumbittence?
Jesus Christ is the only way to save ourselves through sin, considering there is full and unconditional pardon. God has laws and we broke them. Christ came down to redeem humanity.
You'll find nothing of the sort in Islam, where there is no reassurance of salvation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnVsBUZQXFM
People die through submittence? So I guess you are just making things up now.....Islam has the same basic message, and has just as much proof of being correct as any other religion, anybody who isn't completely blind can see that.The message of Christianity is to be redeemed through God's sacrifice for humanity, thus redeeming us.
The message of Islam is to submit to Allah, follow the 5 pillars of Islam and hope you're "good enough" to go to Heaven.
I think you should read up on Islam a little bit, In order to go to heaven in islam you must believe in allah and demonstrate that you are faithful towards him, as well as accepting mohomed as your prophet.basically the same as Christianity....
[QUOTE="pianist"]
Yes, it is supposedly limitless - assuming God exists at all. But if one assumes it is possible for illogical happenings to occur on account of God, one must also admit that it is possible for illogical things to happen in nature. Given that we've explored only a tiny fraction of our universe, and that history has shown that our notions about the principles that govern the universe often end up being wrong, I find it difficult to understand why Creationists claim that God must be behind the creation of the universe simply because we currently do not understand how it could exist infinitely or how it could develop from 'nothing.'
tycoonmike
And until you can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that the universe wasn't "created," being that it wasn't formed by some omnipotent being, religion will continue to exist. The beauty of this is that it is impossible to prove that the universe was created by anything but an omnipotent being because in order to prove that this universe wasn't created by God or a god, you have to be able to understand if anything came before it. This would be impossible to prove, as any universe, singular or plural, wouldn't be detected by any instrument invented in this reality. You would have to bring back proof from that reality to prove to this reality it existed, and such proof would be impossible to detect. Just like God, singular or plural. It is impossible to detect God, but you can supposedly experience "His" creation, just as it is impossible to detect whatever came before this reality.
And, of course, this all assumes that this reality even exists in the physical sense.
And this is precisely what leads us back to the beginning of the argument. We have two possible scenarios for the creation of the universe - intelligent design or spontaneous, natural creation. Both are impossible to prove, and both are, at their core, illogical by our current standards of thinking. And thus, claiming that one is certainly correct and the other is not boils down to nothing more than saying "I choose to believe this happened because it seems more plausible to me."
It's amusing, really, that people put so much effort into trying to prove that one of the two sides is impossible because it is illogical when the other alternative is equally illogical. The Youtube videos people are posting here are perfect examples of individuals who just don't get it - no matter how hard they try, they will never be able to prove that their explanation is correct, or that it is any more logical than an adversary's explanation.
But then, humans use the word impossible a lot - even with regards to things that are very possible. Perhaps at some point in the future we will develop technology to explain what currently seems impossible to prove, or be witness to a supernatural occurrence which proves beyond a doubt who (if anyone) was right.
[QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="-Predak-"]Funny how noone has acknowledged the fact that i have definitely unproved God, so here: i will post it again
Can God create a being equal to itself?
EXACTLY! if god cannot create a being equal to himself then he cannot create himself, which would be the only possible way for him to come in to existence, becuase nothing is more powerful then him, so nothin is powerful enough to create him!!!! thats it, I WIN!
God coming into existence by creating himself? Maybe he was just always there? In a rebuttle, Yoshi-innex would reply, "Well why not go one step further and say the universe was always there?", and he may have a point.yoshi-lnex
Go ahead and believe that.
I will, and it seems that you've given up in debating seeing how you're original points on god being self contradictory lack a counter example.Counter example? God cannot do the logically impossible and not be God. And I'm not giving us debating, the argument is just stupid.
[QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="-Predak-"]Please we beg of you, if you have reliable, factual, tangible evidence of a supreme being we would LOVE to hear it. And God enjoys death and suffering, becuase if he wanted religious battles to stop, he would simply come down for one second and show everyone that he is the only one god, and noone would have reason to fight.yoshi-lnex
Got a ton, you just wouldn't accept it based upon your intelect.
And God already came down as Jesus Christ. Those who don't follow him and repent will be punished for eternity. I think God has this entire circumstance under control.
And these religious wars just use God as a justification for their actions. Can't blame them, can you? ;)
Why will I be punished? I'm not a bad person, yet I'll suffer for all eternity because I don't have faith. I guess the fear of that should make me want to believe, right?No one is good, but God. You are a liar(you've lied, you're called a liar for lieing), you're a thief(you've stolen something, you're called a thief for stealing something) and you've lusted over a women(Jesus said that whosoever looks upon a women, to lust after her is commiting adultrey in his heart. Matt 5:28). You're a liar, a thief and an adulterer at heart. Same goes for everyone else here, including me.
Those are only 3 of the 10 commandments though. There are 7 others pointed at you.
You'll suffer eternity because God won't take an adulterer, a thief and a mliar to heaven.
That's great, but you avoided the main part of my post. People believe out of fear.Beleiving isn't enough. One must repent from one's sins through Jesus Christ.. You think simply believing will allow anyone to gain entrance into Heaven? Please.
Those who do believe out of fear would be succumbed to do good works to justify themselves to god because of their fear, but good works will not earn anyone salvation either.
Islam has basically the same message....why would you believe in christianity over it?What makes more sense? Having God die for humanity for sins or having people die for God through sumbittence?
Jesus Christ is the only way to save ourselves through sin, considering there is full and unconditional pardon. God has laws and we broke them. Christ came down to redeem humanity.
You'll find nothing of the sort in Islam, where there is no reassurance of salvation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnVsBUZQXFM
People die through submittence? So I guess you are just making things up now.....Islam has the same basic message, and has just as much proof of being correct as any other religion, anybody who isn't completely blind can see that.The message of Christianity is to be redeemed through God's sacrifice for humanity, thus redeeming us.
The message of Islam is to submit to Allah, follow the 5 pillars of Islam and hope you're "good enough" to go to Heaven.
I think you should read up on Islam a little bit, In order to go to heaven in islam you must believe in allah and demonstrate that you are faithful towards him, as well as accepting mohomed as your prophet.basically the same as Christianity....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnVsBUZQXFM
Who will take away your sins? Who will pay the fine for you? Who can save me from this body of death? Sure as hell isn't mohummad, nor Allah.
[QUOTE="tycoonmike"][QUOTE="pianist"]
Yes, it is supposedly limitless - assuming God exists at all. But if one assumes it is possible for illogical happenings to occur on account of God, one must also admit that it is possible for illogical things to happen in nature. Given that we've explored only a tiny fraction of our universe, and that history has shown that our notions about the principles that govern the universe often end up being wrong, I find it difficult to understand why Creationists claim that God must be behind the creation of the universe simply because we currently do not understand how it could exist infinitely or how it could develop from 'nothing.'
pianist
And until you can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that the universe wasn't "created," being that it wasn't formed by some omnipotent being, religion will continue to exist. The beauty of this is that it is impossible to prove that the universe was created by anything but an omnipotent being because in order to prove that this universe wasn't created by God or a god, you have to be able to understand if anything came before it. This would be impossible to prove, as any universe, singular or plural, wouldn't be detected by any instrument invented in this reality. You would have to bring back proof from that reality to prove to this reality it existed, and such proof would be impossible to detect. Just like God, singular or plural. It is impossible to detect God, but you can supposedly experience "His" creation, just as it is impossible to detect whatever came before this reality.
And, of course, this all assumes that this reality even exists in the physical sense.
And this is precisely what leads us back to the beginning of the argument. We have two possible scenarios for the creation of the universe - intelligent design or spontaneous, natural creation. Both are impossible to prove, and both are, at their core, illogical by our current standards of thinking. And thus, claiming that one is certainly correct and the other is not boils down to nothing more than saying "I choose to believe this happened because it seems more plausible to me."Â
It's amusing, really, that people put so much effort into trying to prove that one of the two sides is impossible because it is illogical when the other alternative is equally illogical. The Youtube videos people are posting here are perfect examples of individuals who just don't get it - no matter how hard they try, they will never be able to prove that their explanation is correct, or that it is any more logical than an adversary's explanation.
thank you, now this thread may finally rest
[QUOTE="tycoonmike"][QUOTE="pianist"]
Yes, it is supposedly limitless - assuming God exists at all. But if one assumes it is possible for illogical happenings to occur on account of God, one must also admit that it is possible for illogical things to happen in nature. Given that we've explored only a tiny fraction of our universe, and that history has shown that our notions about the principles that govern the universe often end up being wrong, I find it difficult to understand why Creationists claim that God must be behind the creation of the universe simply because we currently do not understand how it could exist infinitely or how it could develop from 'nothing.'
pianist
And until you can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that the universe wasn't "created," being that it wasn't formed by some omnipotent being, religion will continue to exist. The beauty of this is that it is impossible to prove that the universe was created by anything but an omnipotent being because in order to prove that this universe wasn't created by God or a god, you have to be able to understand if anything came before it. This would be impossible to prove, as any universe, singular or plural, wouldn't be detected by any instrument invented in this reality. You would have to bring back proof from that reality to prove to this reality it existed, and such proof would be impossible to detect. Just like God, singular or plural. It is impossible to detect God, but you can supposedly experience "His" creation, just as it is impossible to detect whatever came before this reality.
And, of course, this all assumes that this reality even exists in the physical sense.
And this is precisely what leads us back to the beginning of the argument. We have two possible scenarios for the creation of the universe - intelligent design or spontaneous, natural creation. Both are impossible to prove, and both are, at their core, illogical by our current standards of thinking. And thus, claiming that one is certainly correct and the other is not boils down to nothing more than saying "I choose to believe this happened because it seems more plausible to me."
It's amusing, really, that people put so much effort into trying to prove that one of the two sides is impossible because it is illogical when the other alternative is equally illogical. The Youtube videos people are posting here are perfect examples of individuals who just don't get it - no matter how hard they try, they will never be able to prove that their explanation is correct, or that it is any more logical than an adversary's explanation.
But then, humans use the word impossible a lot - even with regards to things that are very possible. Perhaps at some point in the future we will develop technology to explain what currently seems impossible to prove, or be witness to a supernatural occurrence which proves beyond a doubt who (if anyone) was right.
Oh man...this is priceless. :lol:
[QUOTE="tycoonmike"][QUOTE="pianist"]
Yes, it is supposedly limitless - assuming God exists at all. But if one assumes it is possible for illogical happenings to occur on account of God, one must also admit that it is possible for illogical things to happen in nature. Given that we've explored only a tiny fraction of our universe, and that history has shown that our notions about the principles that govern the universe often end up being wrong, I find it difficult to understand why Creationists claim that God must be behind the creation of the universe simply because we currently do not understand how it could exist infinitely or how it could develop from 'nothing.'
pianist
And until you can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that the universe wasn't "created," being that it wasn't formed by some omnipotent being, religion will continue to exist. The beauty of this is that it is impossible to prove that the universe was created by anything but an omnipotent being because in order to prove that this universe wasn't created by God or a god, you have to be able to understand if anything came before it. This would be impossible to prove, as any universe, singular or plural, wouldn't be detected by any instrument invented in this reality. You would have to bring back proof from that reality to prove to this reality it existed, and such proof would be impossible to detect. Just like God, singular or plural. It is impossible to detect God, but you can supposedly experience "His" creation, just as it is impossible to detect whatever came before this reality.
And, of course, this all assumes that this reality even exists in the physical sense.
And this is precisely what leads us back to the beginning of the argument. We have two possible scenarios for the creation of the universe - intelligent design or spontaneous, natural creation. Both are impossible to prove, and both are, at their core, illogical by our current standards of thinking. And thus, claiming that one is certainly correct and the other is not boils down to nothing more than saying "I choose to believe this happened because it seems more plausible to me."
It's amusing, really, that people put so much effort into trying to prove that one of the two sides is impossible because it is illogical when the other alternative is equally illogical. The Youtube videos people are posting here are perfect examples of individuals who just don't get it - no matter how hard they try, they will never be able to prove that their explanation is correct, or that it is any more logical than an adversary's explanation.
But then, humans use the word impossible a lot - even with regards to things that are very possible. Perhaps at some point in the future we will develop technology to explain what currently seems impossible to prove, or be witness to a supernatural occurrence which proves beyond a doubt who (if anyone) was right.
The only way to get rid of this is to destroy human nature, so you'll probably have to live with it, as will you ancestors millions of years down the road.
And this is precisely what leads us back to the beginning of the argument. We have two possible scenarios for the creation of the universe - intelligent design or spontaneous, natural creation. Both are impossible to prove, and both are, at their core, illogical by our current standards of thinking. And thus, claiming that one is certainly correct and the other is not boils down to nothing more than saying "I choose to believe this happened because it seems more plausible to me."
It's amusing, really, that people put so much effort into trying to prove that one of the two sides is impossible because it is illogical when the other alternative is equally illogical. The Youtube videos people are posting here are perfect examples of individuals who just don't get it - no matter how hard they try, they will never be able to prove that their explanation is correct, or that it is any more logical than an adversary's explanation.
pianist
I've been saying the same thing for years. Too many people will not allow themselves to understand this.
[QUOTE="pianist"][QUOTE="tycoonmike"][QUOTE="pianist"]
Yes, it is supposedly limitless - assuming God exists at all. But if one assumes it is possible for illogical happenings to occur on account of God, one must also admit that it is possible for illogical things to happen in nature. Given that we've explored only a tiny fraction of our universe, and that history has shown that our notions about the principles that govern the universe often end up being wrong, I find it difficult to understand why Creationists claim that God must be behind the creation of the universe simply because we currently do not understand how it could exist infinitely or how it could develop from 'nothing.'
Ineedtofindyou
And until you can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that the universe wasn't "created," being that it wasn't formed by some omnipotent being, religion will continue to exist. The beauty of this is that it is impossible to prove that the universe was created by anything but an omnipotent being because in order to prove that this universe wasn't created by God or a god, you have to be able to understand if anything came before it. This would be impossible to prove, as any universe, singular or plural, wouldn't be detected by any instrument invented in this reality. You would have to bring back proof from that reality to prove to this reality it existed, and such proof would be impossible to detect. Just like God, singular or plural. It is impossible to detect God, but you can supposedly experience "His" creation, just as it is impossible to detect whatever came before this reality.
And, of course, this all assumes that this reality even exists in the physical sense.
And this is precisely what leads us back to the beginning of the argument. We have two possible scenarios for the creation of the universe - intelligent design or spontaneous, natural creation. Both are impossible to prove, and both are, at their core, illogical by our current standards of thinking. And thus, claiming that one is certainly correct and the other is not boils down to nothing more than saying "I choose to believe this happened because it seems more plausible to me."
It's amusing, really, that people put so much effort into trying to prove that one of the two sides is impossible because it is illogical when the other alternative is equally illogical. The Youtube videos people are posting here are perfect examples of individuals who just don't get it - no matter how hard they try, they will never be able to prove that their explanation is correct, or that it is any more logical than an adversary's explanation.
But then, humans use the word impossible a lot - even with regards to things that are very possible. Perhaps at some point in the future we will develop technology to explain what currently seems impossible to prove, or be witness to a supernatural occurrence which proves beyond a doubt who (if anyone) was right.
Oh man...this is priceless. :lol:
How so? Prove to the two of us (because obviously we agree with one another), that God exists without using man's interpretation of the Word of God. That is impossible, therefore it is impossible to prove that God exists, just as it's impossible to prove that the universe wasn't created by God or from the ashes of another universe.
The only way to get rid of this is to destroy human nature, so you'll probably have to live with it, as will you ancestors millions of years down the road.
tycoonmike
Hey - I'm not complaining. After all, I'm participating in this debate, aren't I? :P
It's fun to muse about these things, whether or not they can be answered. That's what philosophy is all about. And when I stated it is amusing that people put so much effort into trying to prove an impossible position, I was quite serious. It is entertaining - if only because they fail to see that their strongest arguments often contradict their own position as much as they 'disprove' an opponent's position.
[QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="-Predak-"]Please we beg of you, if you have reliable, factual, tangible evidence of a supreme being we would LOVE to hear it. And God enjoys death and suffering, becuase if he wanted religious battles to stop, he would simply come down for one second and show everyone that he is the only one god, and noone would have reason to fight.Ineedtofindyou
Got a ton, you just wouldn't accept it based upon your intelect.
And God already came down as Jesus Christ. Those who don't follow him and repent will be punished for eternity. I think God has this entire circumstance under control.
And these religious wars just use God as a justification for their actions. Can't blame them, can you? ;)
Why will I be punished? I'm not a bad person, yet I'll suffer for all eternity because I don't have faith. I guess the fear of that should make me want to believe, right?No one is good, but God. You are a liar(you've lied, you're called a liar for lieing), you're a thief(you've stolen something, you're called a thief for stealing something) and you've lusted over a women(Jesus said that whosoever looks upon a women, to lust after her is commiting adultrey in his heart. Matt 5:28). You're a liar, a thief and an adulterer at heart. Same goes for everyone else here, including me.
Those are only 3 of the 10 commandments though. There are 7 others pointed at you.
You'll suffer eternity because God won't take an adulterer, a thief and a mliar to heaven.
That's great, but you avoided the main part of my post. People believe out of fear.Beleiving isn't enough. One must repent from one's sins through Jesus Christ.. You think simply believing will allow anyone to gain entrance into Heaven? Please.
Those who do believe out of fear would be succumbed to do good works to justify themselves to god because of their fear, but good works will not earn anyone salvation either.
Islam has basically the same message....why would you believe in christianity over it?What makes more sense? Having God die for humanity for sins or having people die for God through sumbittence?
Jesus Christ is the only way to save ourselves through sin, considering there is full and unconditional pardon. God has laws and we broke them. Christ came down to redeem humanity.
You'll find nothing of the sort in Islam, where there is no reassurance of salvation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnVsBUZQXFM
People die through submittence? So I guess you are just making things up now.....Islam has the same basic message, and has just as much proof of being correct as any other religion, anybody who isn't completely blind can see that.The message of Christianity is to be redeemed through God's sacrifice for humanity, thus redeeming us.
The message of Islam is to submit to Allah, follow the 5 pillars of Islam and hope you're "good enough" to go to Heaven.
I think you should read up on Islam a little bit, In order to go to heaven in islam you must believe in allah and demonstrate that you are faithful towards him, as well as accepting mohomed as your prophet.basically the same as Christianity....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnVsBUZQXFM
Who will take away your sins? Who will pay the fine for you? Who can save me from this body of death? Sure as hell isn't mohummad, nor Allah.
I'm done with watching your videos, not one to this point has held any intelligent value, and just allows you to avoid intelligent debate, hurting your case more than helped. Islam is just as plausible as Christianity, and has the same basic, and unless you're completely blind you'd recognize this, if you want to try and debate this, do so, instead of just linking videos to avoid having to show any ability at debating, as of yet I have yet to see any.
[QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="-Predak-"]Funny how noone has acknowledged the fact that i have definitely unproved God, so here: i will post it again
Can God create a being equal to itself?
EXACTLY! if god cannot create a being equal to himself then he cannot create himself, which would be the only possible way for him to come in to existence, becuase nothing is more powerful then him, so nothin is powerful enough to create him!!!! thats it, I WIN!
God coming into existence by creating himself? Maybe he was just always there? In a rebuttle, Yoshi-innex would reply, "Well why not go one step further and say the universe was always there?", and he may have a point.Ineedtofindyou
Go ahead and believe that.
I will, and it seems that you've given up in debating seeing how you're original points on god being self contradictory lack a counter example.Counter example? God cannot do the logically impossible and not be God. And I'm not giving us debating, the argument is just stupid.
If it's stupid then you should be able to provide a counter example, right?The proofs provided disprove god, prove them wrong.
[QUOTE="pianist"]
And this is precisely what leads us back to the beginning of the argument. We have two possible scenarios for the creation of the universe - intelligent design or spontaneous, natural creation. Both are impossible to prove, and both are, at their core, illogical by our current standards of thinking. And thus, claiming that one is certainly correct and the other is not boils down to nothing more than saying "I choose to believe this happened because it seems more plausible to me."
It's amusing, really, that people put so much effort into trying to prove that one of the two sides is impossible because it is illogical when the other alternative is equally illogical. The Youtube videos people are posting here are perfect examples of individuals who just don't get it - no matter how hard they try, they will never be able to prove that their explanation is correct, or that it is any more logical than an adversary's explanation.
But then, humans use the word impossible a lot - even with regards to things that are very possible. Perhaps at some point in the future we will develop technology to explain what currently seems impossible to prove, or be witness to a supernatural occurrence which proves beyond a doubt who (if anyone) was right.
Ineedtofindyou
Oh man...this is priceless. :lol:
Wow. What a compelling rebuttal. My entire world view has been fundamentally altered by this single post, which has proved beyond any doubt that what you believe to be true regarding the creation of the universe is indeed true.
:|
Remove your hats gentlemen, for we are in the presense of a true intellectual dynamo.
You can not discredit truth. Truth is truth. It can neither be proven nor disproven. It simply is. It is not affected by what others think of you, yet I tell you this: So long as you are worried about what others think of you, you are owned by them. Only when you require no approval from outside yourself can you own yourself. nilemonitor
Funny, I thought that the Manhattan project was dismissed by many who proclaimed it to be a waste of time. They said that it was a fool's game, trying to perfect a doomsday device like a nuclear weapon. It would conflagrate the entire atmosphere, some even said. Funnier still, I'm here. I'm breathing the oxygen and nitrogen that wasn't set ablaze in the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I'm here, despite the nuclear arms race that occured not twenty years before.
Truth is undeniable, but a human's perception of truth can be proven wrong. If intelligent life wasn't around to experience "truth," then would it even exist? How can something be true if no one is around to experience it? How can gravity exist if there is no one to measure it, for instance? Is a lizard aware that because of the massive weight beneath the earth's surface, and its subsequent attraction to it, it is not gasping its last breath of oxygen before sucking hard vacuum?
As far as I know, nothing tangible has ever come from a group of people sitting around mass debating all day. :P nilemonitor
Nothing but a greater understanding of the world around us. Granted, this is intangible, but some of the greatest things in life are intangible. Love, affection, trust, friendship, etc., are all intangible, but are worth infinitely more than a lump of plastic and metal that produces light and sound, IE a computer.
[QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"]No, it shows that omnipotence is illogical.Ineedtofindyou
Or how some arguments against omnipotence are logical fallcies.
demonstrate how, it seems like it disproves an omnipotent god to me.A perfect God cannot be God?
based upon this logical proof, no, it's not possible./god
Logical proof that the universe came about from blind random chance?
I'll go with a supernatural act of God, thanks.
I'll take chance for 300 alex!
[QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="Ineedtofindyou"][QUOTE="-Predak-"]Please we beg of you, if you have reliable, factual, tangible evidence of a supreme being we would LOVE to hear it. And God enjoys death and suffering, becuase if he wanted religious battles to stop, he would simply come down for one second and show everyone that he is the only one god, and noone would have reason to fight.Ineedtofindyou
Got a ton, you just wouldn't accept it based upon your intelect.
And God already came down as Jesus Christ. Those who don't follow him and repent will be punished for eternity. I think God has this entire circumstance under control.
And these religious wars just use God as a justification for their actions. Can't blame them, can you? ;)
Why will I be punished? I'm not a bad person, yet I'll suffer for all eternity because I don't have faith. I guess the fear of that should make me want to believe, right?No one is good, but God. You are a liar(you've lied, you're called a liar for lieing), you're a thief(you've stolen something, you're called a thief for stealing something) and you've lusted over a women(Jesus said that whosoever looks upon a women, to lust after her is commiting adultrey in his heart. Matt 5:28). You're a liar, a thief and an adulterer at heart. Same goes for everyone else here, including me.
Those are only 3 of the 10 commandments though. There are 7 others pointed at you.
You'll suffer eternity because God won't take an adulterer, a thief and a mliar to heaven.
That's great, but you avoided the main part of my post. People believe out of fear.Beleiving isn't enough. One must repent from one's sins through Jesus Christ.. You think simply believing will allow anyone to gain entrance into Heaven? Please.
Those who do believe out of fear would be succumbed to do good works to justify themselves to god because of their fear, but good works will not earn anyone salvation either.
Islam has basically the same message....why would you believe in christianity over it?What makes more sense? Having God die for humanity for sins or having people die for God through sumbittence?
Jesus Christ is the only way to save ourselves through sin, considering there is full and unconditional pardon. God has laws and we broke them. Christ came down to redeem humanity.
You'll find nothing of the sort in Islam, where there is no reassurance of salvation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnVsBUZQXFM
People die through submittence? So I guess you are just making things up now.....Islam has the same basic message, and has just as much proof of being correct as any other religion, anybody who isn't completely blind can see that.The message of Christianity is to be redeemed through God's sacrifice for humanity, thus redeeming us.
The message of Islam is to submit to Allah, follow the 5 pillars of Islam and hope you're "good enough" to go to Heaven.
I think you should read up on Islam a little bit, In order to go to heaven in islam you must believe in allah and demonstrate that you are faithful towards him, as well as accepting mohomed as your prophet.basically the same as Christianity....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnVsBUZQXFM
Who will take away your sins? Who will pay the fine for you? Who can save me from this body of death? Sure as hell isn't mohummad, nor Allah.
Why does someone have to be responsible for your deeds. Islam teaches to be responsible for your ownPlease Log In to post.
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