Columbia University student survives...HELL.
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[QUOTE="Verge_6"][QUOTE="abdelmessih101"][QUOTE="yoshimistu51"]that is sick, someone needs to torture him for the rest of his life, not just send him to jail, i hope u gets the crap beating into everyda he spends in prisonmarkop2003
If you want for him to be tortured, how are you any different than he is?
How is wanting a man who tortured an innocent woman to be tortured the same as torturing said innocent woman?
it's a punishment, she did nothing to deserve what she got
I'm saying that it's bad to wish torture on anyone, regardless of what that person did
[QUOTE="markop2003"][QUOTE="Verge_6"][QUOTE="abdelmessih101"][QUOTE="yoshimistu51"]that is sick, someone needs to torture him for the rest of his life, not just send him to jail, i hope u gets the crap beating into everyda he spends in prisonabdelmessih101
If you want for him to be tortured, how are you any different than he is?
How is wanting a man who tortured an innocent woman to be tortured the same as torturing said innocent woman?
it's a punishment, she did nothing to deserve what she got
I'm saying that it's bad to wish torture on anyone, regardless of what that person did
So, if a cop came to your house and told you your little girl was raped, beaten, tortured, and dismembered by a man for 24 hours and she lived through the whole thing, you would wish nothing of him, forgive him like a good christian, and hope he spends only a comfortable life in prison?
I can't believe people are actually that sick. I hope he suffers.mracoon
Theres probably an entire website/HBO reality show/porn genre for people who would enjoy to be the victim in that story. Thats how sick the world is.
[QUOTE="abdelmessih101"][QUOTE="markop2003"][QUOTE="Verge_6"][QUOTE="abdelmessih101"][QUOTE="yoshimistu51"]that is sick, someone needs to torture him for the rest of his life, not just send him to jail, i hope u gets the crap beating into everyda he spends in prisonTolwan
If you want for him to be tortured, how are you any different than he is?
How is wanting a man who tortured an innocent woman to be tortured the same as torturing said innocent woman?
it's a punishment, she did nothing to deserve what she got
I'm saying that it's bad to wish torture on anyone, regardless of what that person did
So, if a cop came to your house and told you your little girl was raped, beaten, tortured, and dismembered by a man for 24 hours and she lived through the whole thing, you would wish nothing of him, forgive him like a good christian, and hope he spends only a comfortable life in prison?
It's hard, but yeah - everything happens for a reason, and I have to have faith and trust in God that there is a reason why that happened. I'm only 17 now, and I don't know that I'm strong enough spiritually to do that if something like this happened to a loved one (my younger sister for example) - but hopefully I will be by the time that I'm a dad.
Besides, I know that that person will pay consequences for his actions whether or not he changes his ways. If he does realize his evil ways and becomes good, then he will have to live for the rest of his life with the guilt of what he did. If he continues to sin and doesn't try to reject it, he will end up in hell once his time on earth is over.
However, his punishment is up to God and not me - wishing pain onto others is wrong no matter what - and I trust God to deal with that person (and everyone else) in a just manner.
It's hard, but yeah - everything happens for a reason, and I have to have faith and trust in God that there is a reason why that happened. I'm only 17 now, and I don't know that I'm strong enough spiritually to do that if something like this happened to a loved one (my younger sister for example) - but hopefully I will be by the time that I'm a dad.
Besides, I know that that person will pay consequences for his actions whether or not he changes his ways. If he does realize his evil ways and becomes good, then he will have to live for the rest of his life with the guilt of what he did. If he continues to sin and doesn't try to reject it, he will end up in hell once his time on earth is over.
However, his punishment is up to God and not me - wishing pain onto others is wrong no matter what - and I trust God to deal with that person (and everyone else) in a just manner.
abdelmessih101
It's easy for you to say that whole 'God let it happen for a reason, and he will deal with everything' bit now, but I can PROMISE that you will not think as such if your little daughter/son is raped (should you actually have children). How would you honestly feel if you were raped as a six-year old, and your father simply put his hand on your shoulder, and said in a calm voice; "God let that happen for a reason". That is laughable. I'm sure that if the same situation applied to your girlfriend/wife and you gave such a response...you'd find yourself dumped/divorced by the next day. If God DID make things like that happen, then does He not violate one of His most sacred rule; to not interfere with the free will of man?
[QUOTE="abdelmessih101"]It's hard, but yeah - everything happens for a reason, and I have to have faith and trust in God that there is a reason why that happened. I'm only 17 now, and I don't know that I'm strong enough spiritually to do that if something like this happened to a loved one (my younger sister for example) - but hopefully I will be by the time that I'm a dad.
Besides, I know that that person will pay consequences for his actions whether or not he changes his ways. If he does realize his evil ways and becomes good, then he will have to live for the rest of his life with the guilt of what he did. If he continues to sin and doesn't try to reject it, he will end up in hell once his time on earth is over.
However, his punishment is up to God and not me - wishing pain onto others is wrong no matter what - and I trust God to deal with that person (and everyone else) in a just manner.
Verge_6
It's easy for you to say that whole 'God let it happen for a reason, and he will deal with everything' bit now, but I can PROMISE that you will not think as such if your little daughter/son is raped (should you actually have children). How would you honestly feel if you were raped as a six-year old, and your father simply put his hand on your shoulder, and said in a calm voice; "God let that happen for a reason". That is laughable. I'm sure that if the same situation applied to your girlfriend/wife and you gave such a response...you'd find yourself dumped/divorced by the next day.
As a christian, not even i believe the "God made it happen for a reason". God gave man free will and gave him the ability to be a sinner or be virtuous. Which means if a man rapes you, he is doing it of his own, twisted free will. Just as if you help someone, you are doing it of your own god-granted free will. I think god my help things out a little in a crunch, but nothing significant. I'd say if anything it'd be the equivelant of tilting luck in your favor. Plane finding flat ground in an emergency, fuel lasting an hour longer, the bullet barely missing your head, etc. etc., beyond that i think he influences things very little.
So when someone does some kind of sick **** like this, i hold the right to call him a sick **** and hope for his slow and painful death, because i know he did it of his own will.
[QUOTE="abdelmessih101"]It's hard, but yeah - everything happens for a reason, and I have to have faith and trust in God that there is a reason why that happened. I'm only 17 now, and I don't know that I'm strong enough spiritually to do that if something like this happened to a loved one (my younger sister for example) - but hopefully I will be by the time that I'm a dad.
Besides, I know that that person will pay consequences for his actions whether or not he changes his ways. If he does realize his evil ways and becomes good, then he will have to live for the rest of his life with the guilt of what he did. If he continues to sin and doesn't try to reject it, he will end up in hell once his time on earth is over.
However, his punishment is up to God and not me - wishing pain onto others is wrong no matter what - and I trust God to deal with that person (and everyone else) in a just manner.
Verge_6
It's easy for you to say that whole 'God let it happen for a reason, and He will deal with everything' bit now, but I can PROMISE that you will not think as such if your little daughter/son is raped (should you actually have children). How would you honestly feel if you were raped as a six-year old, and your father simply put his hand on your shoulder, and said in a calm voice; "God let that happen for a reason". That is laughable. I'm sure that if the same situation applied to your girlfriend/wife and you gave such a response...you'd find yourself dumped/divorced by the next day.
God will deal with that man and will help my daughter to recover from such an incident, but I also have to help her as well. It's not as if I live through my whole life doing nothing and expecting God to take care of everything. I must put in a sincere effort and do as much as I can, and when that's not enough, I'm faithful that God will take care of the rest.
I'm not saying that I would expect a 6-year-old to understand or accept that, I would obviously get her some therapy and help her with any trauma that she might have - I'm just saying that it's something that I would have to accept as a father or a friend to the victim of such an incident.
And what should I be expected to do (other than what I've explained above) so that I don't get "dumped/divorced by the next day"?
[QUOTE="Verge_6"][QUOTE="abdelmessih101"]It's hard, but yeah - everything happens for a reason, and I have to have faith and trust in God that there is a reason why that happened. I'm only 17 now, and I don't know that I'm strong enough spiritually to do that if something like this happened to a loved one (my younger sister for example) - but hopefully I will be by the time that I'm a dad.
Besides, I know that that person will pay consequences for his actions whether or not he changes his ways. If he does realize his evil ways and becomes good, then he will have to live for the rest of his life with the guilt of what he did. If he continues to sin and doesn't try to reject it, he will end up in hell once his time on earth is over.
However, his punishment is up to God and not me - wishing pain onto others is wrong no matter what - and I trust God to deal with that person (and everyone else) in a just manner.
abdelmessih101
It's easy for you to say that whole 'God let it happen for a reason, and He will deal with everything' bit now, but I can PROMISE that you will not think as such if your little daughter/son is raped (should you actually have children). How would you honestly feel if you were raped as a six-year old, and your father simply put his hand on your shoulder, and said in a calm voice; "God let that happen for a reason". That is laughable. I'm sure that if the same situation applied to your girlfriend/wife and you gave such a response...you'd find yourself dumped/divorced by the next day.
God will deal with that man and will help my daughter to recover from such an incident, but I also have to help her as well. It's not as if I live through my whole life doing nothing and expecting God to take care of everything. I must put in a sincere effort and do as much as I can, and when that's not enough, I'm faithful that God will take care of the rest.
I'm not saying that I would expect a 6-year-old to understand or accept that, I would obviously get her some therapy and help her with any trauma that she might have - I'm just saying that it's something that I would have to accept as a father or a friend to the victim of such an incident.
And what should I be expected to do (other than what I've explained above) so that I don't get "dumped/divorced by the next day"?
Again, there's the little fact that God would be going back on his promise to not influence our free will. How can we possess free will if He 'means for things to happen'? Again, you say you will think in such a manner, but you are only a 17 year old man with no daughter or son. When or if you discover the pure, unadulterated love that comes with parenthood, you will find it niegh IMPOSSIBLE to not wish ill-will towards a man who hurt them in such a way. I've known people who held such mindsets as the one you hold, and when their loved ones died and/or were horribly injured either physically or psychologically, they did not simply say to themselves "God meant for that to happen.". To sincerely believe in such a thing unquestionably would be to go against every single goddamned fiber of your humaninty.
[QUOTE="Verge_6"][QUOTE="abdelmessih101"]It's hard, but yeah - everything happens for a reason, and I have to have faith and trust in God that there is a reason why that happened. I'm only 17 now, and I don't know that I'm strong enough spiritually to do that if something like this happened to a loved one (my younger sister for example) - but hopefully I will be by the time that I'm a dad.
Besides, I know that that person will pay consequences for his actions whether or not he changes his ways. If he does realize his evil ways and becomes good, then he will have to live for the rest of his life with the guilt of what he did. If he continues to sin and doesn't try to reject it, he will end up in hell once his time on earth is over.
However, his punishment is up to God and not me - wishing pain onto others is wrong no matter what - and I trust God to deal with that person (and everyone else) in a just manner.
Tolwan
It's easy for you to say that whole 'God let it happen for a reason, and he will deal with everything' bit now, but I can PROMISE that you will not think as such if your little daughter/son is raped (should you actually have children). How would you honestly feel if you were raped as a six-year old, and your father simply put his hand on your shoulder, and said in a calm voice; "God let that happen for a reason". That is laughable. I'm sure that if the same situation applied to your girlfriend/wife and you gave such a response...you'd find yourself dumped/divorced by the next day.
As a christian, not even i believe the "God made it happen for a reason". God gave man free will and gave him the ability to be a sinner or be virtuous. Which means if a man rapes you, he is doing it of his own, twisted free will. Just as if you help someone, you are doing it of your own god-granted free will. I think god my help things out a little in a crunch, but nothing significant. I'd say if anything it'd be the equivelant of tilting luck in your favor. Plane finding flat ground in an emergency, fuel lasting an hour longer, the bullet barely missing your head, etc. etc., beyond that i think he influences things very little.
So when someone does some kind of sick **** like this, i hold the right to call him a sick **** and hope for his slow and painful death, because i know he did it of his own will.
I don't know about the god you believe in, but the God I believe in plays a very active role in all of our lives, from day-to-day situations to life-changing situations. What kind of god would stand idle and not help out in significant situations? :| Sure, He gave us free-will, but it's not as if He is not going to guide through your life or help you out when you need it - because He does and will continue to do so, whether you realize it or not.
If you believe in God, then you also believe in the devil, and in demons. How do you that this man wasn't controlled or even influenced by a demon or the devil himself? And God clearly says in the Bible (Matt 7:1-3) not to judge other, or else you be judged by the same measures. In those same verses He mentions that you should worry about your own sins rather than the sins of others. In John 8:3-7, Jesus says "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first" meaning that you can't judge others unless you are sinless - since no human is sinless, we can't judge each other.
[QUOTE="Tolwan"][QUOTE="Verge_6"][QUOTE="abdelmessih101"]It's hard, but yeah - everything happens for a reason, and I have to have faith and trust in God that there is a reason why that happened. I'm only 17 now, and I don't know that I'm strong enough spiritually to do that if something like this happened to a loved one (my younger sister for example) - but hopefully I will be by the time that I'm a dad.
Besides, I know that that person will pay consequences for his actions whether or not he changes his ways. If he does realize his evil ways and becomes good, then he will have to live for the rest of his life with the guilt of what he did. If he continues to sin and doesn't try to reject it, he will end up in hell once his time on earth is over.
However, his punishment is up to God and not me - wishing pain onto others is wrong no matter what - and I trust God to deal with that person (and everyone else) in a just manner.
abdelmessih101
It's easy for you to say that whole 'God let it happen for a reason, and he will deal with everything' bit now, but I can PROMISE that you will not think as such if your little daughter/son is raped (should you actually have children). How would you honestly feel if you were raped as a six-year old, and your father simply put his hand on your shoulder, and said in a calm voice; "God let that happen for a reason". That is laughable. I'm sure that if the same situation applied to your girlfriend/wife and you gave such a response...you'd find yourself dumped/divorced by the next day.
As a christian, not even i believe the "God made it happen for a reason". God gave man free will and gave him the ability to be a sinner or be virtuous. Which means if a man rapes you, he is doing it of his own, twisted free will. Just as if you help someone, you are doing it of your own god-granted free will. I think god my help things out a little in a crunch, but nothing significant. I'd say if anything it'd be the equivelant of tilting luck in your favor. Plane finding flat ground in an emergency, fuel lasting an hour longer, the bullet barely missing your head, etc. etc., beyond that i think he influences things very little.
So when someone does some kind of sick **** like this, i hold the right to call him a sick **** and hope for his slow and painful death, because i know he did it of his own will.
I don't know about the god you believe in, but the God I believe in plays a very active role in all of our lives, from day-to-day situations to life-changing situations. What kind of god would stand idle and not help out in significant situations? :| Sure, He gave us free-will, but it's not as if He is not going to guide through your life or help you out when you need it - because He does and will continue to do so, whether you realize it or not.
If you believe in God, then you also believe in the devil, and in demons. How do you that this man wasn't controlled or even influenced by a demon or the devil himself? And God clearly says in the Bible (Matt 7:1-3) not to judge other, or else you be judged by the same measures. In those same verses He mentions that you should worry about your own sins rather than the sins of others. In John 8:3-7, Jesus says "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first" meaning that you can't judge others unless you are sinless - since no human is sinless, we can't judge each other.
Again, I believe he stated he would not directly influence free-will.
You do not have to believe in the Devil if you believe in God.
The Bible also says "An eye for an eye", does it not?
[QUOTE="Tolwan"][QUOTE="Verge_6"][QUOTE="abdelmessih101"]It's hard, but yeah - everything happens for a reason, and I have to have faith and trust in God that there is a reason why that happened. I'm only 17 now, and I don't know that I'm strong enough spiritually to do that if something like this happened to a loved one (my younger sister for example) - but hopefully I will be by the time that I'm a dad.
Besides, I know that that person will pay consequences for his actions whether or not he changes his ways. If he does realize his evil ways and becomes good, then he will have to live for the rest of his life with the guilt of what he did. If he continues to sin and doesn't try to reject it, he will end up in hell once his time on earth is over.
However, his punishment is up to God and not me - wishing pain onto others is wrong no matter what - and I trust God to deal with that person (and everyone else) in a just manner.
abdelmessih101
It's easy for you to say that whole 'God let it happen for a reason, and he will deal with everything' bit now, but I can PROMISE that you will not think as such if your little daughter/son is raped (should you actually have children). How would you honestly feel if you were raped as a six-year old, and your father simply put his hand on your shoulder, and said in a calm voice; "God let that happen for a reason". That is laughable. I'm sure that if the same situation applied to your girlfriend/wife and you gave such a response...you'd find yourself dumped/divorced by the next day.
As a christian, not even i believe the "God made it happen for a reason". God gave man free will and gave him the ability to be a sinner or be virtuous. Which means if a man rapes you, he is doing it of his own, twisted free will. Just as if you help someone, you are doing it of your own god-granted free will. I think god my help things out a little in a crunch, but nothing significant. I'd say if anything it'd be the equivelant of tilting luck in your favor. Plane finding flat ground in an emergency, fuel lasting an hour longer, the bullet barely missing your head, etc. etc., beyond that i think he influences things very little.
So when someone does some kind of sick **** like this, i hold the right to call him a sick **** and hope for his slow and painful death, because i know he did it of his own will.
I don't know about the god you believe in, but the God I believe in plays a very active role in all of our lives, from day-to-day situations to life-changing situations. What kind of god would stand idle and not help out in significant situations? :| Sure, He gave us free-will, but it's not as if He is not going to guide through your life or help you out when you need it - because He does and will continue to do so, whether you realize it or not.
If you believe in God, then you also believe in the devil, and in demons. How do you that this man wasn't controlled or even influenced by a demon or the devil himself? And God clearly says in the Bible (Matt 7:1-3) not to judge other, or else you be judged by the same measures. In those same verses He mentions that you should worry about your own sins rather than the sins of others. In John 8:3-7, Jesus says "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first" meaning that you can't judge others unless you are sinless - since no human is sinless, we can't judge each other.
I dont believe in god, so I think we should just kill him.
[QUOTE="abdelmessih101"][QUOTE="Verge_6"][QUOTE="abdelmessih101"]It's hard, but yeah - everything happens for a reason, and I have to have faith and trust in God that there is a reason why that happened. I'm only 17 now, and I don't know that I'm strong enough spiritually to do that if something like this happened to a loved one (my younger sister for example) - but hopefully I will be by the time that I'm a dad.
Besides, I know that that person will pay consequences for his actions whether or not he changes his ways. If he does realize his evil ways and becomes good, then he will have to live for the rest of his life with the guilt of what he did. If he continues to sin and doesn't try to reject it, he will end up in hell once his time on earth is over.
However, his punishment is up to God and not me - wishing pain onto others is wrong no matter what - and I trust God to deal with that person (and everyone else) in a just manner.
Verge_6
It's easy for you to say that whole 'God let it happen for a reason, and He will deal with everything' bit now, but I can PROMISE that you will not think as such if your little daughter/son is raped (should you actually have children). How would you honestly feel if you were raped as a six-year old, and your father simply put his hand on your shoulder, and said in a calm voice; "God let that happen for a reason". That is laughable. I'm sure that if the same situation applied to your girlfriend/wife and you gave such a response...you'd find yourself dumped/divorced by the next day.
God will deal with that man and will help my daughter to recover from such an incident, but I also have to help her as well. It's not as if I live through my whole life doing nothing and expecting God to take care of everything. I must put in a sincere effort and do as much as I can, and when that's not enough, I'm faithful that God will take care of the rest.
I'm not saying that I would expect a 6-year-old to understand or accept that, I would obviously get her some therapy and help her with any trauma that she might have - I'm just saying that it's something that I would have to accept as a father or a friend to the victim of such an incident.
And what should I be expected to do (other than what I've explained above) so that I don't get "dumped/divorced by the next day"?
Again, there's the little fact that God would be going back on His promise to not influence our free will. How can we possess free will if He 'means for things to happen'? Again, you say you will think in such a manner, but you are only a 17 year old man with no daughter or son. When or if you discover the pure, unadulterated love that comes with parenthood, you will find it niegh IMPOSSIBLE to not wish ill-will towards a man who hurt them in such a way. I've known people who held such mindsets as the one you hold, and when their loved ones died and/or were horribly injured either physically or psychologically, they did not simply say to themselves "God meant for that to happen.". To sincerely believe in such a thing unquestionably would be to go against every single ***damned fiber of your humaninty.
When did God promise that? True Christians submit their lives to God in attempt to follow His will for us - His plan for our lives. He gave us free will, but wants us to follow the plan He has set up for us to get into Heaven.
You said that last sentence as if that is impossible. Well then, you should see the miracles that the peace of God works into some of the poor impoverished Coptic Orthodox Christians in Egypt. You'll hear many stories of homeless mothers with a faith in God unlike any other - many have lost some of their children, but their faith and love in God is so strong that they are happy and have peace in their lives. That kind of peace can only come from God, my friend - it's the same peace that every Christian should hope to acquire - the peace of God which surpasses all understanding, so you can't expect to understand, but you should believe in it. :)
[QUOTE="Verge_6"][QUOTE="abdelmessih101"][QUOTE="Verge_6"][QUOTE="abdelmessih101"]It's hard, but yeah - everything happens for a reason, and I have to have faith and trust in God that there is a reason why that happened. I'm only 17 now, and I don't know that I'm strong enough spiritually to do that if something like this happened to a loved one (my younger sister for example) - but hopefully I will be by the time that I'm a dad.
Besides, I know that that person will pay consequences for his actions whether or not he changes his ways. If he does realize his evil ways and becomes good, then he will have to live for the rest of his life with the guilt of what he did. If he continues to sin and doesn't try to reject it, he will end up in hell once his time on earth is over.
However, his punishment is up to God and not me - wishing pain onto others is wrong no matter what - and I trust God to deal with that person (and everyone else) in a just manner.
abdelmessih101
It's easy for you to say that whole 'God let it happen for a reason, and He will deal with everything' bit now, but I can PROMISE that you will not think as such if your little daughter/son is raped (should you actually have children). How would you honestly feel if you were raped as a six-year old, and your father simply put his hand on your shoulder, and said in a calm voice; "God let that happen for a reason". That is laughable. I'm sure that if the same situation applied to your girlfriend/wife and you gave such a response...you'd find yourself dumped/divorced by the next day.
God will deal with that man and will help my daughter to recover from such an incident, but I also have to help her as well. It's not as if I live through my whole life doing nothing and expecting God to take care of everything. I must put in a sincere effort and do as much as I can, and when that's not enough, I'm faithful that God will take care of the rest.
I'm not saying that I would expect a 6-year-old to understand or accept that, I would obviously get her some therapy and help her with any trauma that she might have - I'm just saying that it's something that I would have to accept as a father or a friend to the victim of such an incident.
And what should I be expected to do (other than what I've explained above) so that I don't get "dumped/divorced by the next day"?
Again, there's the little fact that God would be going back on His promise to not influence our free will. How can we possess free will if He 'means for things to happen'? Again, you say you will think in such a manner, but you are only a 17 year old man with no daughter or son. When or if you discover the pure, unadulterated love that comes with parenthood, you will find it niegh IMPOSSIBLE to not wish ill-will towards a man who hurt them in such a way. I've known people who held such mindsets as the one you hold, and when their loved ones died and/or were horribly injured either physically or psychologically, they did not simply say to themselves "God meant for that to happen.". To sincerely believe in such a thing unquestionably would be to go against every single ***damned fiber of your humaninty.
When did God promise that? True Christians submit their lives to God in attempt to follow His will for us - His plan for our lives. He gave us free will, but wants us to follow the plan He has set up for us to get into Heaven.
You said that last sentence as if that is impossible. Well then, you should see the miracles that the peace of God works into some of the poor impoverished Coptic Orthodox Christians in Egypt. You'll hear many stories of homeless mothers with a faith in God unlike any other - many have lost some of their children, but their faith and love in God is so strong that they are happy and have peace in their lives. That kind of peace can only come from God, my friend - it's the same peace that every Christian should hope to acquire - the peace of God which surpasses all understanding, so you can't expect to understand, but you should believe in it. :)
Why would He give us free will then if He intends to use His subjects to carry out 'the things He meant to happen'?
This has nothing to do with unquestionably believing that God meant for your daughter/son to be raped and that you will not for one second wihs harm on the man who hurt them. You are speaking of the faith people have in harsh situations. And how many of them do you think cursed God for their sufferings? I'm an atheist, almost soley because I was told that 'God meant' for my mother to die, or, 'God meant' for my dog to get run over. I may one day believe in Him again, but I absolutely refuse to believe in a God that takes away free will to serve His purposes.
Once again, you may speak with absolute sincerity that you will be the prefect saint and not wish ill-will on anyone, no matter what they do. But you are only setting yourself up for a very harsh awakening when life inevitably throws you a curve ball that smashes your nose into your skull.
[QUOTE="abdelmessih101"][QUOTE="Tolwan"][QUOTE="Verge_6"][QUOTE="abdelmessih101"]It's hard, but yeah - everything happens for a reason, and I have to have faith and trust in God that there is a reason why that happened. I'm only 17 now, and I don't know that I'm strong enough spiritually to do that if something like this happened to a loved one (my younger sister for example) - but hopefully I will be by the time that I'm a dad.
Besides, I know that that person will pay consequences for his actions whether or not he changes his ways. If he does realize his evil ways and becomes good, then he will have to live for the rest of his life with the guilt of what he did. If he continues to sin and doesn't try to reject it, he will end up in hell once his time on earth is over.
However, his punishment is up to God and not me - wishing pain onto others is wrong no matter what - and I trust God to deal with that person (and everyone else) in a just manner.
Verge_6
It's easy for you to say that whole 'God let it happen for a reason, and he will deal with everything' bit now, but I can PROMISE that you will not think as such if your little daughter/son is raped (should you actually have children). How would you honestly feel if you were raped as a six-year old, and your father simply put his hand on your shoulder, and said in a calm voice; "God let that happen for a reason". That is laughable. I'm sure that if the same situation applied to your girlfriend/wife and you gave such a response...you'd find yourself dumped/divorced by the next day.
As a christian, not even i believe the "God made it happen for a reason". God gave man free will and gave him the ability to be a sinner or be virtuous. Which means if a man rapes you, he is doing it of his own, twisted free will. Just as if you help someone, you are doing it of your own god-granted free will. I think god my help things out a little in a crunch, but nothing significant. I'd say if anything it'd be the equivelant of tilting luck in your favor. Plane finding flat ground in an emergency, fuel lasting an hour longer, the bullet barely missing your head, etc. etc., beyond that i think he influences things very little.
So when someone does some kind of sick **** like this, i hold the right to call him a sick **** and hope for his slow and painful death, because i know he did it of his own will.
I don't know about the god you believe in, but the God I believe in plays a very active role in all of our lives, from day-to-day situations to life-changing situations. What kind of god would stand idle and not help out in significant situations? :| Sure, He gave us free-will, but it's not as if He is not going to guide through your life or help you out when you need it - because He does and will continue to do so, whether you realize it or not.
If you believe in God, then you also believe in the devil, and in demons. How do you that this man wasn't controlled or even influenced by a demon or the devil himself? And God clearly says in the Bible (Matt 7:1-3) not to judge other, or else you be judged by the same measures. In those same verses He mentions that you should worry about your own sins rather than the sins of others. In John 8:3-7, Jesus says "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first" meaning that you can't judge others unless you are sinless - since no human is sinless, we can't judge each other.
Again, I believe he stated he would not directly influence free-will.
You do not have to believe in the Devil if you believe in God.
The Bible also says "An eye for an eye", does it not?
Yes you do - belief in the existance of the devil goes hand in hand with belief in the existance of God - unless you're not Christian.
Did you read the Bible? If you claim to have read it, then how did you miss when Jesus said to His disciples in plain english "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also," in Matthew 5:38-39. The "eye for an eye" policy was used in the Old Testament because God knew that the barbaric society of those times could not follow stricter rules. However, he changed and adjusted to rules to suit the new more civilized society of the New Testament.
[QUOTE="abdelmessih101"][QUOTE="Verge_6"][QUOTE="abdelmessih101"][QUOTE="Verge_6"][QUOTE="abdelmessih101"]It's hard, but yeah - everything happens for a reason, and I have to have faith and trust in God that there is a reason why that happened. I'm only 17 now, and I don't know that I'm strong enough spiritually to do that if something like this happened to a loved one (my younger sister for example) - but hopefully I will be by the time that I'm a dad.
Besides, I know that that person will pay consequences for his actions whether or not he changes his ways. If he does realize his evil ways and becomes good, then he will have to live for the rest of his life with the guilt of what he did. If he continues to sin and doesn't try to reject it, he will end up in hell once his time on earth is over.
However, his punishment is up to God and not me - wishing pain onto others is wrong no matter what - and I trust God to deal with that person (and everyone else) in a just manner.
Verge_6
It's easy for you to say that whole 'God let it happen for a reason, and He will deal with everything' bit now, but I can PROMISE that you will not think as such if your little daughter/son is raped (should you actually have children). How would you honestly feel if you were raped as a six-year old, and your father simply put his hand on your shoulder, and said in a calm voice; "God let that happen for a reason". That is laughable. I'm sure that if the same situation applied to your girlfriend/wife and you gave such a response...you'd find yourself dumped/divorced by the next day.
God will deal with that man and will help my daughter to recover from such an incident, but I also have to help her as well. It's not as if I live through my whole life doing nothing and expecting God to take care of everything. I must put in a sincere effort and do as much as I can, and when that's not enough, I'm faithful that God will take care of the rest.
I'm not saying that I would expect a 6-year-old to understand or accept that, I would obviously get her some therapy and help her with any trauma that she might have - I'm just saying that it's something that I would have to accept as a father or a friend to the victim of such an incident.
And what should I be expected to do (other than what I've explained above) so that I don't get "dumped/divorced by the next day"?
Again, there's the little fact that God would be going back on His promise to not influence our free will. How can we possess free will if He 'means for things to happen'? Again, you say you will think in such a manner, but you are only a 17 year old man with no daughter or son. When or if you discover the pure, unadulterated love that comes with parenthood, you will find it niegh IMPOSSIBLE to not wish ill-will towards a man who hurt them in such a way. I've known people who held such mindsets as the one you hold, and when their loved ones died and/or were horribly injured either physically or psychologically, they did not simply say to themselves "God meant for that to happen.". To sincerely believe in such a thing unquestionably would be to go against every single ***damned fiber of your humaninty.
When did God promise that? True Christians submit their lives to God in attempt to follow His will for us - His plan for our lives. He gave us free will, but wants us to follow the plan He has set up for us to get into Heaven.
You said that last sentence as if that is impossible. Well then, you should see the miracles that the peace of God works into some of the poor impoverished Coptic Orthodox Christians in Egypt. You'll hear many stories of homeless mothers with a faith in God unlike any other - many have lost some of their children, but their faith and love in God is so strong that they are happy and have peace in their lives. That kind of peace can only come from God, my friend - it's the same peace that every Christian should hope to acquire - the peace of God which surpasses all understanding, so you can't expect to understand, but you should believe in it. :)
Why would He give us free will then if He intends to use His subjects to carry out 'the things He meant to happen'?
This has nothing to do with unquestionably believing that God meant for your daughter/son to be raped and that you will not for one second wihs harm on the man who hurt them. You are speaking of the faith people have in harsh situations. And how many of them do you think cursed God for their sufferings? I'm an atheist, almost soley because I was told that 'God meant' for my mother to die, or, 'God meant' for my dog to get run over. I may one day believe in Him again, but I absolutely refuse to believe in a God that takes away free will to serve His purposes.
I dont think you should give up religion because of bible thumpers, but i can see why it turned you away from god. What kind of god "deems" who dies and who doesnt based on his whim? Why would he create a universe and grant free will at all if he was going to have some grand plan for every individual life form?
Of what i've learned from church, myself, and family, he granted us true free will. He wants us to follow him yes, but he wants us to *choose* to follow him, not to do it blindly. God let's us carve our own path in this world, and he will help when we need it so long as we are attempting to help ourselves (ex. your hanging on a ledge and you're trying to pull yourself up, god gives you that extra boost to get up. But if you give up and are just hanging, then he'll let you fall and die, it's always your choice). And he's right, the devil does tempt us. But that's all he does, he "tempts" us, he does not control us. He tries to make people see the benefit in sinning. "That little girl would be easy to manipulate, easy to silence. Not loud and resistent like your ex-wife" or "You can spend your life suffering, or you can rob the bank". But it all boils down to free will, you still choose all of your actions. If someone performs evil, they chose to do it, no matter how much the devil tempted them to do so (if he did at all).
This guy is just a true and through bible thumper however. He would burn Mecca to see the second coming of christ :P
Yes you do - belief in the existance of the devil goes hand in hand with belief in the existance of God - unless you're not Christian.
Did you read the Bible? If you claim to have read it, then how did you miss when Jesus said to His disciples in plain english "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also," in Matthew 5:38-39. The "eye for an eye" policy was used in the Old Testament because God knew that the barbaric society of those times could not follow stricter rules. However, he changed and adjusted to rules to suit the new more civilized society of the New Testament.
abdelmessih101
Who says?
So why should the "eye for an eye" statement be nullified and not Jesus's ruling? Then why are homosexuals still persecuted? Wasn't that ruling in the Old Testament as well? I'd say hating someone for their sexual preferences is the mindset of a 'barbaric society'.
Either way, this is off track from what this was originally about; You claiming to never hold a grudge against someone.
I dont think you should give up religion because of bible thumpers, but i can see why it turned you away from god. What kind of god "deems" who dies and who doesnt based on his whim? Why would he create a universe and grant free will at all if he was going to have some grand plan for every individual life form?
Of what i've learned from church, myself, and family, he granted us true free will. He wants us to follow him yes, but he wants us to *choose* to follow him, not to do it blindly. God let's us carve our own path in this world, and he will help when we need it so long as we are attempting to help ourselves (ex. your hanging on a ledge and you're trying to pull yourself up, god gives you that extra boost to get up. But if you give up and are just hanging, then he'll let you fall and die, it's always your choice). And he's right, the devil does tempt us. But that's all he does, he "tempts" us, he does not control us. He tries to make people see the benefit in sinning. "That little girl would be easy to manipulate, easy to silence. Not loud and resistent like your ex-wife" or "You can spend your life suffering, or you can rob the bank". But it all boils down to free will, you still choose all of your actions. If someone performs evil, they chose to do it, no matter how much the devil tempted them to do so (if he did at all).
This guy is just a true and through bible thumper however. He would burn Mecca to see the second coming of christ :P
Tolwan
If I had attended a more open-minded church as a child, I may not have turned away. But the stallwart, fatalist mindset of the one I unfortunately intended disgusted me. Being told that "God meant for that suffering to happen" is NOT going to make me want to have anything to do with Him. What inevitably accompanies such a mindset is predestination, which I find completely and totally appalling.
[QUOTE="dracula_16"]Reminds me of that death penalty thread I posted in a little while ago. This, my friends, is what justifies the death penalty in my opinion. There are simply no words to describe how ghastly that crime was.MrGeezer
You support killing people as a punishment for NOT killing people?
i support killing people that cause people that much pain. We have 0 use for them in society and they deserve nothing less than life in prison.
[QUOTE="TheLordRagnarok"]That's disgusting. I can't believe you could do something like that. This guy should be publicly whipped. Then have methos and salt rubbed into the wounds. Then whipped again. Then have a tattoo put on his face that says "Worse than Hitler Then put in prison. And let gay prisoners into his cell. Every day. And be flogged again every Saturday. I'm perfectly serious about that.
MrGeezer
Wow, that sounds an awful lot like what he did to that woman.
except the woman did NOTHING to deserve that???
[QUOTE="Dreams-Visions"][QUOTE="MrGeezer"][QUOTE="dracula_16"]Reminds me of that death penalty thread I posted in a little while ago. This, my friends, is what justifies the death penalty in my opinion. There are simply no words to describe how ghastly that crime was.MrGeezer
You support killing people as a punishment for NOT killing people?
lol wut?it's obvious what he means and why he'd say it in regards to this case. dodn't make an argument just for something to do. go read a book.
Yeah, having a moral objection to revenge murders is "making an argument just for something to do."
:roll:
so if someone did that to you, it wouldnt bother you if they lived a full life?
[QUOTE="abdelmessih101"][QUOTE="Verge_6"][QUOTE="abdelmessih101"][QUOTE="Verge_6"][QUOTE="abdelmessih101"]It's hard, but yeah - everything happens for a reason, and I have to have faith and trust in God that there is a reason why that happened. I'm only 17 now, and I don't know that I'm strong enough spiritually to do that if something like this happened to a loved one (my younger sister for example) - but hopefully I will be by the time that I'm a dad.
Besides, I know that that person will pay consequences for his actions whether or not he changes his ways. If he does realize his evil ways and becomes good, then he will have to live for the rest of his life with the guilt of what he did. If he continues to sin and doesn't try to reject it, he will end up in hell once his time on earth is over.
However, his punishment is up to God and not me - wishing pain onto others is wrong no matter what - and I trust God to deal with that person (and everyone else) in a just manner.
Verge_6
It's easy for you to say that whole 'God let it happen for a reason, and He will deal with everything' bit now, but I can PROMISE that you will not think as such if your little daughter/son is raped (should you actually have children). How would you honestly feel if you were raped as a six-year old, and your father simply put his hand on your shoulder, and said in a calm voice; "God let that happen for a reason". That is laughable. I'm sure that if the same situation applied to your girlfriend/wife and you gave such a response...you'd find yourself dumped/divorced by the next day.
God will deal with that man and will help my daughter to recover from such an incident, but I also have to help her as well. It's not as if I live through my whole life doing nothing and expecting God to take care of everything. I must put in a sincere effort and do as much as I can, and when that's not enough, I'm faithful that God will take care of the rest.
I'm not saying that I would expect a 6-year-old to understand or accept that, I would obviously get her some therapy and help her with any trauma that she might have - I'm just saying that it's something that I would have to accept as a father or a friend to the victim of such an incident.
And what should I be expected to do (other than what I've explained above) so that I don't get "dumped/divorced by the next day"?
Again, there's the little fact that God would be going back on His promise to not influence our free will. How can we possess free will if He 'means for things to happen'? Again, you say you will think in such a manner, but you are only a 17 year old man with no daughter or son. When or if you discover the pure, unadulterated love that comes with parenthood, you will find it niegh IMPOSSIBLE to not wish ill-will towards a man who hurt them in such a way. I've known people who held such mindsets as the one you hold, and when their loved ones died and/or were horribly injured either physically or psychologically, they did not simply say to themselves "God meant for that to happen.". To sincerely believe in such a thing unquestionably would be to go against every single ***damned fiber of your humaninty.
When did God promise that? True Christians submit their lives to God in attempt to follow His will for us - His plan for our lives. He gave us free will, but wants us to follow the plan He has set up for us to get into Heaven.
You said that last sentence as if that is impossible. Well then, you should see the miracles that the peace of God works into some of the poor impoverished Coptic Orthodox Christians in Egypt. You'll hear many stories of homeless mothers with a faith in God unlike any other - many have lost some of their children, but their faith and love in God is so strong that they are happy and have peace in their lives. That kind of peace can only come from God, my friend - it's the same peace that every Christian should hope to acquire - the peace of God which surpasses all understanding, so you can't expect to understand, but you should believe in it. :)
Why would He give us free will then if He intends to use His subjects to carry out 'the things He meant to happen'?
This has nothing to do with unquestionably believing that God meant for your daughter/son to be raped and that you will not for one second wihs harm on the man who hurt them. You are speaking of the faith people have in harsh situations. And how many of them do you think cursed God for their sufferings? I'm an atheist, almost soley because I was told that 'God meant' for my mother to die, or, 'God meant' for my dog to get run over. I may one day believe in Him again, but I absolutely refuse to believe in a God that takes away free will to serve His purposes.
Once again, you may speak with absolute sincerity that you will be the prefect saint and not wish ill-will on anyone, no matter what they do. But you are only setting yourself up for a very harsh awakening when life inevitably throws you a curve ball that smashes your nose into your skull.
God never takes away our free will - God is all-knowing so he knows what will end up happening to you in the future. Therefore, He will always have a plan for you regardless of what happens to you, and you have to believe and trust that he knows what is the best for you. I'm sorry to hear about your mom and your dog, but God sympathizes with you as well, and if you turned toward God instead of away from Him after those things happened, you would have experienced this as the people I was talking about in my post earlier. And I'm sure that none of those people cursed God for their sufferings.
Again, you speak as if pain and suffering will knock any Christian off their faith, but on the contrary, pain and suffering reminds us of our need for God which humbles us and thus brings us closer to God. For this reason, I and many others consider pain and suffering a blessing because it can and should bring people closer together and closer to God because you always have God there for you, in good times and bad.
I'm sorry that things happened the way they did for you, but hopefully you will find your way back to God eventually. :)
God never takes away our free will - God is all-knowing so he knows what will end up happening to you in the future. Therefore, He will always have a plan for you regardless of what happens to you, and you have to believe and trust that he knows what is the best for you. I'm sorry to hear about your mom and your dog, but God sympathizes with you as well, and if you turned toward God instead of away from Him after those things happened, you would have experienced this as the people I was talking about in my post earlier. And I'm sure that none of those people cursed God for their sufferings.
Again, you speak as if pain and suffering will knock any Christian off their faith, but on the contrary, pain and suffering reminds us of our need for God which humbles us and thus brings us closer to God. For this reason, I and many others consider pain and suffering a blessing because it can and should bring people closer together and closer to God because you always have God there for you, in good times and bad.
I'm sorry that things happened the way they did for you, but hopefully you will find your way back to God eventually. :)
abdelmessih101
If God always gives us free will, then he would not have things he 'meant to happen' and have us carry those things out. And how can you speak for those people who suffered and held on to their faith? That is very arrogant, if you ask me. They stayed true to their faith, but who are you to say that they did not once question that faith and God?
No, I am not saying that pain and suffering will make any Christian turn away from God. I am saying that, being the imperfect human beings that we are, we WILL wish ill-will towards someone who harms us and/or our loved ones, and maybe question God.
God has NOTHING to do with this.
Don't bring him into it. Don't suggest it was His will for either of their lives. IT WAS NOT.
Don't dishonor His name by suggesting otherwise.
"...for the ENEMY comes to STEAL, KILL AND DESTROY..."
.
[QUOTE="abdelmessih101"]Yes you do - belief in the existance of the devil goes hand in hand with belief in the existance of God - unless you're not Christian.
Did you read the Bible? If you claim to have read it, then how did you miss when Jesus said to His disciples in plain english "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also," in Matthew 5:38-39. The "eye for an eye" policy was used in the Old Testament because God knew that the barbaric society of those times could not follow stricter rules. However, he changed and adjusted to rules to suit the new more civilized society of the New Testament.
Verge_6
Who says?
So why should the "eye for an eye" statement be nullified and not Jesus's ruling? Then why are homosexuals still persecuted? Wasn't that ruling in the Old Testament as well? I'd say hating someone for their sexual preferences is the mindset of a 'barbaric society'.
Either way, this is off track from what this was originally about; You claiming to never hold a grudge against someone.
Nothing that happens later in the Bible nullifies any of Jesus' teachings in the New Testament. :? God didn't come back and say, "Oh, I was just kidding about that turn the other cheek thing." :| He expects us to leave the punishment and judgment up to Him and Him alone.
My church, (the Oriental Orthodox family of Churches), doesn't persecute homosexuals. We don't accept homosexuality because it's immoral, but we don't persecute people who choose to be homosexual. We hate homosexuality, but not homosexuals.
If you think the Bible still promotes or allows the persecution of sinners, then you should read John 8:3-7. Some Pharisees bring to Jesus a woman who was caught in the act of adultery, and ask whether she should be stoned because it says in the law of Moses that such people should be stoned. Jesus replied by saying "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first." Basically, he is saying that you can't persecute or judge others unless you are sinless, and since no human is sinless, we can't judge/persecute each other, period.
God has NOTHING to do with this.
Don't bring him into it. Don't suggest it was His will for either of their lives. IT WAS NOT.
Don't dishonor His name by suggesting otherwise.
"...for the ENEMY comes to STEAL, KILL AND DESTROY..."
.
Dreams-Visions
*sigh* If only these were the kind of Christians I had grown up with...
God has NOTHING to do with this.
Don't bring him into it. Don't suggest it was His will for either of their lives. IT WAS NOT.
Don't dishonor His name by suggesting otherwise.
"...for the ENEMY comes to STEAL, KILL AND DESTROY..."
.
Dreams-Visions
When did I say it was God's will? This act is obviously an act that was influenced by the devil.
[QUOTE="abdelmessih101"]God never takes away our free will - God is all-knowing so he knows what will end up happening to you in the future. Therefore, He will always have a plan for you regardless of what happens to you, and you have to believe and trust that he knows what is the best for you. I'm sorry to hear about your mom and your dog, but God sympathizes with you as well, and if you turned toward God instead of away from Him after those things happened, you would have experienced this as the people I was talking about in my post earlier. And I'm sure that none of those people cursed God for their sufferings.
Again, you speak as if pain and suffering will knock any Christian off their faith, but on the contrary, pain and suffering reminds us of our need for God which humbles us and thus brings us closer to God. For this reason, I and many others consider pain and suffering a blessing because it can and should bring people closer together and closer to God because you always have God there for you, in good times and bad.
I'm sorry that things happened the way they did for you, but hopefully you will find your way back to God eventually. :)
Verge_6
If God always gives us free will, then he would not have things he 'meant to happen' and have us carry those things out. And how can you speak for those people who suffered and held on to their faith? That is very arrogant, if you ask me. They stayed true to their faith, but who are you to say that they did not once question that faith and God?
No, I am not saying that pain and suffering will make any Christian turn away from God. I am saying that, being the imperfect human beings that we are, we WILL wish ill-will towards someone who harms us and/or our loved ones, and maybe question God.
God never meant for that girl to be raped or violated - the devil influenced that, and it was ultimately a result of free will.
And I don't mean to say that those people never questioned God - Christianity is by no means a blind faith. However, our imperfects and our doubts should serve to help us get closer to God. Through my constant questioning of my faith, I have become stronger in my faith - this tells me that I must be following the right faith.
I also know this because my church (Oriental Orthodox Churches) hasn't altered a single thing in terms of doctrine since the time of Jesus and the apostles. Every other branch of Christianity has added, removed, or altered something that Jesus and His disciples instituted. That's not to say that other branches are completely wrong, but rather incomplete in certain areas of the faith.
And it's a certainty that everyone will mess up at one time or another - but we must always attempt to return back to God, who will always accept us (and everyone else) back so long as we follow His rules.
Sorry guys, it's been great discussing with you, but I have to go to sleep - hopefully I'll have time to continue tomorrow.
All the best. God be with you all. :)
[QUOTE="Dreams-Visions"]God has NOTHING to do with this.
Don't bring him into it. Don't suggest it was His will for either of their lives. IT WAS NOT.
Don't dishonor His name by suggesting otherwise.
"...for the ENEMY comes to STEAL, KILL AND DESTROY..."
.
abdelmessih101
When did I say it was God's will? This act is obviously an act that was influenced by the devil.
Wasn't talking to anyone in particular. I've just seen it said soo many times. At funerals. On TV. People get murdered and people at the funeral say "God plucked a flower from his garden" or "it was His will".
ABSOLUTELY NOT.
I understand it's a comforting mechanism, but it's wholly untrue and it confuses people about what God's Will is for our lives. :)
If that doesn't apply to something you were saying, just nod in agreement and move along. This was for those thinking that :)
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