Do you believe in God, or me?

Your tangibility argument is nonsense. I don't know how to convey the obvious. Logix exists, how could you dispute that? You are using logic, therefore it exists. Next you'll be telling me that words don't exist. MetalGear_Ninty

But we are using logic. To say that A=B and so on. What you are saying is nonsense, we are not talking about physical quantities

No, I said you sense could be fooling you and thereby rendering your argument useless, unless you accept that nothing exists.

Sorry, I can't continue this discussion as I really need some sleep.

I find your arguments to be completely absurd though.

If nayone else wishes to point out the flaws in VV's arguments then please feel free to do so.

If you were in a position to only believe in ONE of us, who would it be and why? I know this seems silly, and it probably is, but it's a bit interesting too. Can ones faith in God be so overpowering that they believe in Him no matter what the other options are?

And, by (if you do) choosing me, what does that make God/where does that leave Him?

DigitalExile

[QUOTE="DigitalExile"]How about the fact that I am here responding to your posts, on the spot? Where as you have nothing to suggest that God even exists.jlh47

umm i have the trees, the rocks, the ocean, mountains, the whole earth to prove that God is here. ps. and the entire universe.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="jlh47"]

[QUOTE="DigitalExile"]How about the fact that I am here responding to your posts, on the spot? Where as you have nothing to suggest that God even exists.DarkSmokeNinja

umm i have the trees, the rocks, the ocean, mountains, the whole earth to prove that God is here. ps. and the entire universe.

How do those prove that God exist?

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="DigitalExile"]How about the fact that I am here responding to your posts, on the spot? Where as you have nothing to suggest that God even exists.jlh47

that was seriously a great comeback.

There are two problems with all of these arguments. The first is ASUMPTIONS--huge ones at that. Saying "I believe that God exists, therefore he created everything," doesn't make it true. It makes it an asumption that you believe over another asumption. At the end of the day, your asumption, and any other asumptions, are equal. Saying what you believe does not act as proof, let alone solid proof.

The other is about reality and existance. If you can conjure up the idea of something, it exists. In that sense, yes, God exists. We may not be able to put Him on a lab table and disect Him and see what he had for lunch, but the mere fact that we have this "idea" of Him means that he exists in some form. Likewise, Time, Money, New York, People of New York, Chairs, A.I. and even I, exist in some form or another.

People who are saying "I believe in God," are sayig "I believe things exist," and as stated earlier by saying "God exists, therefore all things exist" is a cheat answer. By saying I exist you acknowledge only that. The question was to choose 'God' or 'me', not 'all things' or 'me'. There is also the fact that I used the wrong words, or people misinterpreted my question. I am not asking whether or not you have faith in Me or God... but who you believe exists.

The only answer, logical or otherwise, is that I exist. The logical answer states that if you can see some sort of action from me, and ATTRIBUTE it to ME then I exist. The logic for God existing is "just because." And, "just because" I say a pasta dish created the universe does not mean that it did, as no one can attribute it to the pasta dish more than they can to a tea pot, or to me, or to God.

Obviously your beliefs in, or of, God and I cannot be 'wrong,' but I was able to prove (as I thought I would) that logic would be thrown right out the window. No, I am not the devil, no I am not God or an A.I., I'm just some guy at a computer asking strangers over the internet to be illogical.

Now, after saying all that, I am also making asumptions, but my qiestion isn't about making asumptions. It's about coming to a logical conclusion.

Also, there one one post I forgot to get and I'm too lazy to find it. It was about science and God. Science does not seek to prove God, nor does it ignore Him... it simply seeks to explain the universe he created. Nothing short of God Himself can prove his own existance. (Asuming, indeed, that God does exist)

Sorry, I can't continue this discussion as I really need some sleep.

I find your arguments to be completely absurd though.

If nayone else wishes to point out the flaws in VV's arguments then please feel free to do so.

MetalGear_Ninty

Actually from what I've read VV seems to be right.

You're thinking of the mind as something that is seperate to the brain, something that has intrinsic properties that the brain does not. VV is saying that the mind is identical to the brain and thus does not exist in the way that you're thinking about it.

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

Sorry, I can't continue this discussion as I really need some sleep.

I find your arguments to be completely absurd though.

If nayone else wishes to point out the flaws in VV's arguments then please feel free to do so.

domatron23

Actually from what I've read VV seems to be right.

You're thinking of the mind as something that is seperate to the brain, something that has intrinsic properties that the brain does not. VV is saying that the mind is identical to the brain and thus does not exist in the way that you're thinking about it.

Oh how very convenient, you've just made a strong strawman out of VV's extremely weak argument. The most inventive use of the strawman I've ever seen.

VV is trying to say that the mind does not exist, that logic does not exist. He says anything that we can't empirically examine does not exist which is absolutely ridiculous.

That was VV's argument, not the one that you just put.

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"] Your tangibility argument is nonsense. I don't know how to convey the obvious. Logix exists, how could you dispute that? You are using logic, therefore it exists. Next you'll be telling me that words don't exist. Vandalvideo

[QUOTE="MetalGearNinty"]But we are using logic. To say that A=B and so on. What you are saying is nonsense, we are not talking about physical quantitiesVandalvideo

[QUOTE="MetalGearNinty"]No, I said your sense could be fooling you and thereby rendering your argument useless, unless you accept that nothing exists.Vandalvideo

If you were in a position to only believe in ONE of us, who would it be and why? I know this seems silly, and it probably is, but it's a bit interesting too. Can ones faith in God be so overpowering that they believe in Him no matter what the other options are?

And, by (if you do) choosing me, what does that make God/where does that leave Him?

DigitalExile

Lmao, halarious.

I believe in a creator, not a 6 foot white guy with a beard (image of god).

[QUOTE="DigitalExile"]

If you were in a position to only believe in ONE of us, who would it be and why? I know this seems silly, and it probably is, but it's a bit interesting too. Can ones faith in God be so overpowering that they believe in Him no matter what the other options are?

And, by (if you do) choosing me, what does that make God/where does that leave Him?

Phenom316

Lmao, halarious.

I believe in a creator, not a 6 foot white guy with a beard (image of god).

huh?

I'm going to have to go with you! I believe in you Billy! I can call you Billy right?!

That leaves the big cheese out the door - though I guess in a way you become my new God. Maybe you could change your name to some epic like ohhh i don't know.. how bout 'Jan Templar!'

I'm going to have to side with VandalVideo on this one. It can't reasonably argued that only the existence of one's mind is certain, because the argument for that - cogito ergo sum - depends on logic. So if we can't be certain about logic, as solipsism, of course, must admit, we can't be certain about the existence of our minds.Funky_Llama

I don't get it, have you and Domatron actually read the whole discussion. :P

Ah, interesting, and I accept that point. But my debate with VV has nothing to do with solipsism, I am merely asserting the existence of my mind.

Are you guys reading something different to me, I really am confused because what VV is saying is really an incoherent mess.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]I'm going to have to side with VandalVideo on this one. It can't reasonably argued that only the existence of one's mind is certain, because the argument for that - cogito ergo sum - depends on logic. So if we can't be certain about logic, as solipsism, of course, must admit, we can't be certain about the existence of our minds.MetalGear_Ninty

I don't get, have you and Domatron actually read the whole discussion. :P

Ah, interesting, and I accept that point. But my debate with VV has nothing to do with solipsism, I am merely asserting the existence of my mind.

Are you guys reading something different to me, I really am confused because what VV is saying is really an incoherent mess.

Well, it was a very interesting discussion. :P

I think... basically... VV is suggesting that what we assume to be the mind is actually merely the physical processes of our brain, and that the mind - something intangible and 'more' than the brain - does not exist.

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]I'm going to have to side with VandalVideo on this one. It can't reasonably argued that only the existence of one's mind is certain, because the argument for that - cogito ergo sum - depends on logic. So if we can't be certain about logic, as solipsism, of course, must admit, we can't be certain about the existence of our minds.Funky_Llama

I don't get, have you and Domatron actually read the whole discussion. :P

Ah, interesting, and I accept that point. But my debate with VV has nothing to do with solipsism, I am merely asserting the existence of my mind.

Are you guys reading something different to me, I really am confused because what VV is saying is really an incoherent mess.

Well, it was a very interesting discussion. :P

I think... basically... VV is suggesting that what we assume to be the mind is actually merely the physical processes of our brain, and that the mind - something intangible and 'more' than the brain - does not exist.

But that argument is ridiculous because whether our mind is the result of chemical processes or not, it still exists. I never affirmed the existence of a soul. VV was trying to say that the mind does not exist, which is absurd.

EDIT: I see how you and domatron love to make strong strawmen of VV's actual arguments.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]I'm going to have to side with VandalVideo on this one. It can't reasonably argued that only the existence of one's mind is certain, because the argument for that - cogito ergo sum - depends on logic. So if we can't be certain about logic, as solipsism, of course, must admit, we can't be certain about the existence of our minds.MetalGear_Ninty

I don't get, have you and Domatron actually read the whole discussion. :P

Ah, interesting, and I accept that point. But my debate with VV has nothing to do with solipsism, I am merely asserting the existence of my mind.

Are you guys reading something different to me, I really am confused because what VV is saying is really an incoherent mess.

Well, it was a very interesting discussion. :P

I think... basically... VV is suggesting that what we assume to be the mind is actually merely the physical processes of our brain, and that the mind - something intangible and 'more' than the brain - does not exist.

But that argument is ridiculous because whether our mind is the result of chemical processes or not, it still exists. I never affirmed the existence of a soul. VV was trying to say that the mind does not exist, which is absurd.

EDIT: I see how you and domatron love to make strong strawmen of VV's actual arguments.

I suspect that you both actually agree and this merely comes down you having different definitions of 'mind'.

Well, I haven't stated whether I think either of you is right...

I suspect that you both actually agree and this merely comes down you having different definitions of 'mind'.

Well, I haven't stated whether I think either of you is right...

Funky_Llama

I guess I'll just have to wait for VV to get back to me on this one. I know I am right though. :P

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

I suspect that you both actually agree and this merely comes down you having different definitions of 'mind'.

Well, I haven't stated whether I think either of you is right...

MetalGear_Ninty

I guess I'll just have to wait for VV to get back to me on this one. I know I am right though. :P

Yeah... just out of interest, you would you define 'mind'?

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

I suspect that you both actually agree and this merely comes down you having different definitions of 'mind'.

Well, I haven't stated whether I think either of you is right...

Funky_Llama

I guess I'll just have to wait for VV to get back to me on this one. I know I am right though. :P

Yeah... just out of interest, you would you define 'mind'?

The capacity to think.

Don't tell me this whole thing has been about a misunderstanding. :|

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

I suspect that you both actually agree and this merely comes down you having different definitions of 'mind'.

Well, I haven't stated whether I think either of you is right...

MetalGear_Ninty

I guess I'll just have to wait for VV to get back to me on this one. I know I am right though. :P

Yeah... just out of interest, you would you define 'mind'?

The capacity to think.

Don't tell me this whole thing has been about a misunderstanding. :|

I suspect it may well be about a misunderstanding, I'm afraid. :P

But that argument is ridiculous because whether our mind is the result of chemical processes or not, it still exists. I never affirmed the existence of a soul. VV was trying to say that the mind does not exist, which is absurd.

MetalGear_Ninty

It's not really a question of does THE mind exist for the individual, but does it exist for everyone else? The idea of solipsism is that your mind alone exists, and that I could be a brain in a vat as a being beyond this reality is injecting thoughts into this virtual me and controlling this environment. I cant experience the same thoughts as everyone else, so how can I be sure that they have a mind? They could very well be a program made for interaction to further progress in life, like an NPC in an RPG. For the individual, he knows that he has a mind, but he doesnt know if everyone around him does or if they have a series of programs that make them react to certain things.

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

But that argument is ridiculous because whether our mind is the result of chemical processes or not, it still exists. I never affirmed the existence of a soul. VV was trying to say that the mind does not exist, which is absurd.

freek666

It's not really a question of does THE mind exist for the individual, but does it exist for everyone else? The idea of solipsism is that your mind alone exists, and that I could be a brain in a vat as a being beyond this reality is injecting thoughts into this virtual me and controlling this environment. I cant experience the same thoughts as everyone else, so how can I be sure that they have a mind? They could very well be a program made for interaction to further progress in life, like an NPC in an RPG. For the individual, he knows that he has a mind, but he doesnt know if everyone around him does or if they have a series of programs that make them react to certain things.

Yeah, all that is true.

But in this discussion, I wasn't really speaking in absolute terms. Surely VV knows that his mind exists (assuming we're not all AIs)

[QUOTE="freek666"][QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

But that argument is ridiculous because whether our mind is the result of chemical processes or not, it still exists. I never affirmed the existence of a soul. VV was trying to say that the mind does not exist, which is absurd.

MetalGear_Ninty

It's not really a question of does THE mind exist for the individual, but does it exist for everyone else? The idea of solipsism is that your mind alone exists, and that I could be a brain in a vat as a being beyond this reality is injecting thoughts into this virtual me and controlling this environment. I cant experience the same thoughts as everyone else, so how can I be sure that they have a mind? They could very well be a program made for interaction to further progress in life, like an NPC in an RPG. For the individual, he knows that he has a mind, but he doesnt know if everyone around him does or if they have a series of programs that make them react to certain things.

Yeah, all that is true.

But in this discussion, I wasn't really speaking in absolute terms. Surely VV knows that his mind exists (assuming we're not all AIs)

True, it is practically impossible to say indeffinately that the mind doesn't exist for another person just because I cant experience it. Thats like saying it's impossible for there to be a pink elephant in the house next door. It sounds illogical, but it isnt entirely impossible because you just dont know. Which brings me to a joke my philosophy teacher told us.

What do you do when an elephant comes through the wall?

Swim.

True, it is practically impossible to say indeffinately that the mind doesn't exist for another person just because I cant experience it. Thats like saying it's impossible for there to be a pink elephant in the house next door. It sounds illogical, but it isnt entirely impossible because you just dont know. Which brings me to a joke my philosophy teacher told us.

What do you do when an elephant comes through the wall?

Swim.

freek666

Lol, thanks for that one.

I'm going to have to go with you! I believe in you Billy! I can call you Billy right?!

That leaves the big cheese out the door - though I guess in a way you become my new God. Maybe you could change your name to some epic like ohhh i don't know.. how bout 'Jan Templar!'

biggest_loser

So we should start worshipping this being known as, "Billy"?

MetalGear gets my vote in that mini-argument because this entire topic is about using logic. Logically the mind, in any form, exists, because we've formed this idea of what a mind is... it is may or may not physical, it may or may not be metaphysical, but, generally, is it the ability to think etc etc. In that sense the mind exists, end of story.

Whether or not it is physical is beside the point, as the idea of the mind exists, therefore the mind exists, and the real question is... is there something that exists more-so than the mind. Answer: yes. The brain, for example.

[QUOTE="biggest_loser"]

I'm going to have to go with you! I believe in you Billy! I can call you Billy right?!

That leaves the big cheese out the door - though I guess in a way you become my new God. Maybe you could change your name to some epic like ohhh i don't know.. how bout 'Jan Templar!'

I_pWnzz_YoU

So we should start worshipping this being known as, "Billy"?

Also, I lol'd at the joke.

Digitalexile be praised!Morphic

[QUOTE="Morphic"]Digitalexile be praised!DigitalExile

*gasp* The lord is talking to me! Oh I am humbled reveared one! *bowbowbow*