Do you believe in Jesus Christ? If no, do you celebrate....
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[QUOTE="poptart"]
[QUOTE="GabuEx"]
The original intent is what I said in my edit to that post. It was an attempt to Christianize a pagan holiday to make Christmas more palatable to pagans who quite enjoyed their forms of celebration. I don't think anyone actually thought that Jesus was born on December 25.
theone86
Indeed that is true, just as many chruches were built near sacred sites - namely sacred wells - for the same reason. Clever lot them Christians - gotta give it to 'em it worked...
You mean they built churches as a sort of victory monument over pagan religious sites?
I wouldn't say victory if I recall, more the insidious conversion process through which they can still uphold the importance of water and the well to the pagan community. I read a book which covered it many years ago (largely centered on the UK where there are many pagan wells still around).
I found this though which gives a little insight I guess:
Many Christian churches were constructed near pagan sacred wells, and the early Celtic church used them for baptism until the Roman church replaced them with the font inside the building. A number of old churches contain a crypt or grotto that opens into a subterranean spring. This place - close to earth and water - is the innermost sanctum, the hidden holy center of the sacred enclosure.
In Ireland, pilgrimages to holy wells are still an important part of the Christian year; and an inordinate number of these fall upon St.Brigid's day, the old Celtic festival of Imbolc on February 1st. Numerous holy wells are in fact dedicated to this saint, who was once a Celtic goddess, Brighde, giving rise to the many districts called "Bridewell" throughout the British Isles today. Another name common to holy wells and subsequently districts is "Ladywell", as wells once dedicated to pagan goddesses and their priestesses were rededicated to the Virgin Mary under Christianity. Such wells are often connected with sightings of a White Lady, a ghostly figure, perhaps of the displaced well spirit or priestess.
Taken fromhere
for me, Jesus has never had anything to do with christmas.
It's a day to celebrate your family, and the love between us (us as in my family). I always thought of the gifts as the symbol for that love (because even if you aren't thrilled with a family member, you still get them something).
I don't belive in the Jesus that you see in today's religions, but I do think that the character of Jesus Christ is based on someone that did exist-- he just had most of his message distorted over the years. Besides, I don't need to believe that Jesus is my savior to enjoy Christmas because it's more of a secular celebration than a religious one.
what??? ohh my... you guys don't believe In Jesus? So you believe in science i guess? apes? whew...
What has Jesus got to do with giving gifts to your friends and family?
Well, he WAS a real person, and is arguably the single most influential person in world history.RBerry82
The Buddha was more influential. His effect on Hinduism (the switch from ritual sacrifice to philosophy, metaphysics and non-violence effects all Hindus from basically the 4th century BCE onwards) and Asian religion in general reached far more people than have ever known Christianity. China has been partly Buddhist for almost 2000 years now. Only now is the government surpressing religion that they don't display their Buddhist heritage (the three main things driving Chinese religion is Buddhism, Confucianism and ancestor worship/folkloric religion).
Jesus was influential... but the Buddha's ideas reached Greece before Jesus was even born.
It used to be called Yule, and we burned the tree, and jumped over the fire for good luck.
Christmas is a holiday only because the Christians in the west made it to cover up the previous pagan holiday.
Umm you say jesus christ, he isn't like god. Apperently he existed, but if it's god were talkin about, no... I celebrate christmas because it is an event that is cultural, not religous. It might derive from religion, but nowadays it has nothing to do with religion (unless you are religous of course).
thats another example - many branches of christian religion dont celebrate it nor ever exchange giftsi believe in jesus the prophet of God and i dont celebrate christmas.
Harisemo
"Oh, hey! Many of the traditions associated with Christmas have Pagan origins and Christmas is on December 25. That must mean Christmas is a Pagan holiday!!!!" Let's completely ignore the fact that it is 9 months after the Annunciation, and that Christmas predates many of those Pagan festivals it supposedly "stole" from.harashawn
The Romans began celebrating Saturnalia in 217 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturnalia), and that is considered to be the Pagan holiday that became Christmas (http://www.thercg.org/books/ttooc.html).
It is impossible that Christmas predates Saturnalia, considering that Saturnalia began over 200 years before Jesus Christ was born.
If Christmas has nothing to do with religion and you just celebrate it for being the end of the year and that giving-receiving thing, then why don't stop calling it Christmas and spend that day on Dec.31?
If you don't believe Jesus then you don't have the right to celebrate CHRISTmas.
If Christmas has nothing to do with religion and you just celebrate it for being the end of the year and that giving-receiving thing, then why don't stop calling it Christmas and spend that day on Dec.31?
If you don't believe Jesus then you don't have the right to celebrate CHRISTmas.
heatsinkhole
Well I'm an atheist and a United States citizen so I do in fact have the right to celebrate Christmas.
[QUOTE="GabuEx"]
The origins of Christmas are basically Christians trying to win converts by making them able to still continue their pagan celebrations after having converted, and just blatantly making up Jesus' birthday as a contrived reason to associate it with Christianity.
J-man45
I would like to see your evidence for this, please.
II.How Did Christmas Come to Be Celebrated on December 25?
A.Roman pagans first introduced the holiday of Saturnalia, a week long period of lawlessness celebrated between December 17-25. During this period, Roman courts were closed, and Roman law dictated that no one could be punished for damaging property or injuring people during the weeklong celebration. The festival began when Roman authorities chose "an enemy of the Roman people" to represent the "Lord of Misrule." Each Roman community selected a victim whom they forced to indulge in food and other physical pleasures throughout the week. At the festival's conclusion, December 25th, Roman authorities believed they were destroying the forces of darkness by brutally murdering this innocent man or woman.
B. The ancient Greek writer poet and historian Lucian (in his dialogue entitled Saturnalia) describes the festival's observance in his time. In addition to human sacrifice, he mentions these customs: widespread intoxication; going from house to house while singing naked; rape and other sexual license; and consuming human-shaped biscuits (still produced in some English and most German bakeries during the Christmas season).
C. In the 4th century CE, Christianity imported the Saturnalia festival hoping to take the pagan masses in with it. Christian leaders succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians.[2]
D.The problem was that there was nothing intrinsically Christian about Saturnalia. To remedy this, these Christian leaders named Saturnalia's concluding day, December 25th, to be Jesus' birthday.
E. Christians had little success, however, refining the practices of Saturnalia. As Stephen Nissenbaum, professor history at the University of Massachussetts, Amherst, writes, "In return for ensuring massive observance of the anniversary of the Savior's birth by assigning it to this resonant date, the Church for its part tacitly agreed to allow the holiday to be celebrated more or less the way it had always been." The earliest Christmas holidays were celebrated by drinking, sexual indulgence, singing naked in the streets (a precursor of modern caroling), etc.
F. The Reverend Increase Mather of Boston observed in 1687 that "the early Christians who first observed the Nativity on December 25 did not do so thinking that Christ was born in that Month, but because the Heathens' Saturnalia was at that time kept in Rome, and they were willing to have those Pagan Holidays metamorphosed into Christian ones."[3] Because of its known pagan origin, Christmas was banned by the Puritans and its observance was illegal in Massachusetts between 1659 and 1681.[4] However, Christmas was and still is celebrated by most Christians.
G.Some of the most depraved customs of the Saturnalia carnival were intentionally revived by the Catholic Church in 1466 when Pope Paul II, for the amusement of his Roman citizens, forced Jews to race naked through the streets of the city. An eyewitness account reports, "Before they were to run, the Jews were richly fed, so as to make the race more difficult for them and at the same time more amusing for spectators. They ran… amid Rome's taunting shrieks and peals of laughter, while the Holy Father stood upon a richly ornamented balcony and laughed heartily."[5]
H. As part of the Saturnalia carnival throughout the 18th and 19th centuries CE, rabbis of the ghetto in Rome were forced to wear clownish outfits and march through the city streets to the jeers of the crowd, pelted by a variety of missiles. When the Jewish community of Rome sent a petition in1836 to Pope Gregory XVI begging him to stop the annual Saturnalia abuse of the Jewish community, he responded, "It is not opportune to make any innovation."[6] On December 25, 1881, Christian leaders whipped the Polish masses into Antisemitic frenzies that led to riots across the country. In Warsaw 12 Jews were brutally murdered, huge numbers maimed, and many Jewish women were raped. Two million rubles worth of property was destroyed.
Boom
[QUOTE="J-man45"]
[QUOTE="GabuEx"]
The origins of Christmas are basically Christians trying to win converts by making them able to still continue their pagan celebrations after having converted, and just blatantly making up Jesus' birthday as a contrived reason to associate it with Christianity.
BloodJunkie213
I would like to see your evidence for this, please.
II.How Did Christmas Come to Be Celebrated on December 25?
A.Roman pagans first introduced the holiday of Saturnalia, a week long period of lawlessness celebrated between December 17-25. During this period, Roman courts were closed, and Roman law dictated that no one could be punished for damaging property or injuring people during the weeklong celebration. The festival began when Roman authorities chose "an enemy of the Roman people" to represent the "Lord of Misrule." Each Roman community selected a victim whom they forced to indulge in food and other physical pleasures throughout the week. At the festival's conclusion, December 25th, Roman authorities believed they were destroying the forces of darkness by brutally murdering this innocent man or woman.
B. The ancient Greek writer poet and historian Lucian (in his dialogue entitled Saturnalia) describes the festival's observance in his time. In addition to human sacrifice, he mentions these customs: widespread intoxication; going from house to house while singing naked; rape and other sexual license; and consuming human-shaped biscuits (still produced in some English and most German bakeries during the Christmas season).
C. In the 4th century CE, Christianity imported the Saturnalia festival hoping to take the pagan masses in with it. Christian leaders succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians.
D.The problem was that there was nothing intrinsically Christian about Saturnalia. To remedy this, these Christian leaders named Saturnalia's concluding day, December 25th, to be Jesus' birthday.
E. Christians had little success, however, refining the practices of Saturnalia. As Stephen Nissenbaum, professor history at the University of Massachussetts, Amherst, writes, "In return for ensuring massive observance of the anniversary of the Savior's birth by assigning it to this resonant date, the Church for its part tacitly agreed to allow the holiday to be celebrated more or less the way it had always been." The earliest Christmas holidays were celebrated by drinking, sexual indulgence, singing naked in the streets (a precursor of modern caroling), etc.
F. The Reverend Increase Mather of Boston observed in 1687 that "the early Christians who first observed the Nativity on December 25 did not do so thinking that Christ was born in that Month, but because the Heathens' Saturnalia was at that time kept in Rome, and they were willing to have those Pagan Holidays metamorphosed into Christian ones." Because of its known pagan origin, Christmas was banned by the Puritans and its observance was illegal in Massachusetts between 1659 and 1681. However, Christmas was and still is celebrated by most Christians.
G.Some of the most depraved customs of the Saturnalia carnival were intentionally revived by the Catholic Church in 1466 when Pope Paul II, for the amusement of his Roman citizens, forced Jews to race naked through the streets of the city. An eyewitness account reports, "Before they were to run, the Jews were richly fed, so as to make the race more difficult for them and at the same time more amusing for spectators. They ran… amid Rome's taunting shrieks and peals of laughter, while the Holy Father stood upon a richly ornamented balcony and laughed heartily."
H. As part of the Saturnalia carnival throughout the 18th and 19th centuries CE, rabbis of the ghetto in Rome were forced to wear clownish outfits and march through the city streets to the jeers of the crowd, pelted by a variety of missiles. When the Jewish community of Rome sent a petition in1836 to Pope Gregory XVI begging him to stop the annual Saturnalia abuse of the Jewish community, he responded, "It is not opportune to make any innovation." On December 25, 1881, Christian leaders whipped the Polish masses into Antisemitic frenzies that led to riots across the country. In Warsaw 12 Jews were brutally murdered, huge numbers maimed, and many Jewish women were raped. Two million rubles worth of property was destroyed.
Boom
That's all fine and dandy, except I have a couple big problems with the source.
1. It's Judaism online
2. Jews reject the entirety of the new Testament
3. Based on the above, it seems biased to me
But I'm impressed. You are the first one to actually post a source that addresses it in detail.
[QUOTE="J-man45"]
[QUOTE="GabuEx"]
The origins of Christmas are basically Christians trying to win converts by making them able to still continue their pagan celebrations after having converted, and just blatantly making up Jesus' birthday as a contrived reason to associate it with Christianity.
BloodJunkie213
I would like to see your evidence for this, please.
*Ownage in spades*
Boom
Game. Set. Match.
I celebrate Xmas because I freaking can and enjoy spending time with my family.
[QUOTE="BloodJunkie213"]
[QUOTE="J-man45"]
I would like to see your evidence for this, please.
XturnalS
*Ownage in spades*
Boom
Game. Set. Match.
I celebrate Xmas because I freaking can and enjoy spending time with my family.
Game, set, match?
Jews don't even believe in the divinity of Christ.
If Christmas has nothing to do with religion and you just celebrate it for being the end of the year and that giving-receiving thing, then why don't stop calling it Christmas and spend that day on Dec.31?
If you don't believe Jesus then you don't have the right to celebrate CHRISTmas.
heatsinkhole
you don't have the right to tell people what they can and cannot celebrate.
It's people like you who completely and utterly soured me on organized religeon.
As said many times in this thread, Christmas is actually based off of the Roman's Pagan festival Saturnalia. It was basically a week-long harvest festival centered around the winter solstice. Saturnalia was celebrated long before Christmas. Ancient Christians, in an effort to try and convert more Pagans, decided upon the date of December 25th to be Jesus' birthday (although most evidence points to him being born in late August/September) and integrated many Pagan themes into the holiday. Saturnalia was basically the Roman's equivalent of Christmas in its celebration. It was the holiday everyone waited all year for and was the most celebrated. It was really the only holiday celebrated by slaves, who were granted their freedom for the week and could act as true Roman citizens. Obviously, associating the major Christian holiday with the major Pagan holiday made it easier for Pagans to convert to Christianity.
You have to remember that the birth of Jesus on December 25th wasn't celebrated until a long time after his death. It is widely accepted as being a conceived holiday. The really meaning of Christmas is supposed to be that Jesus is divine.
And to OP, believing in Jesus does not mean you are Christian. I believe in Jesus, and there is tons of evidence that he existed. But I do not believe in his divinity or any of the acts he is claimed to have performed, especially since those acts were only written about hundreds of years after his death.
Game, set, match?
Jews don't even believe in the divinity of Christ.
J-man45
Accepting the divinity of Christ has no bearing on the observed historical evidence. And Jesus was a Jew, who reformed many of Judaism outdated laws and tenets and focused his teachings on absolute compassions and selflessness instead of the authority and absolute nature of God.
It is game, set, match... because you are just denying all the evidence put in front of you because you don't want to accept that Christmas was in fact a pagan holiday adapted by the early Church to win converts.
[QUOTE="J-man45"]
Game, set, match?
Jews don't even believe in the divinity of Christ.
foxhound_fox
Accepting the divinity of Christ has no bearing on the observed historical evidence. And Jesus was a Jew, who reformed many of Judaism outdated laws and tenets and focused his teachings on absolute compassions and selflessness instead of the authority and absolute nature of God.
It is game, set, match... because you are just denying all the evidence put in front of you because you don't want to accept that Christmas was in fact a pagan holiday adapted by the early Church to win converts.
Well no... I am asking for evidence from a reliable source, which no one seems able to provide. I ask for evidence and all I get is the same claims repeated over and over. And anyway I'm starting to question why I'm debating this anyway, because for Christians today Christmas actually means something.
And whichever way you look at it, Christmas was established by Christians and evolved into a meaningful holiday for Christians.
[QUOTE="BloodJunkie213"]
[QUOTE="J-man45"]
I would like to see your evidence for this, please.
J-man45
II.How Did Christmas Come to Be Celebrated on December 25?
Boom
That's all fine and dandy, except I have a couple big problems with the source.
1. It's Judaism online
2. Jews reject the entirety of the new Testament
3. Based on the above, it seems biased to me
But I'm impressed. You are the first one to actually post a source that addresses it in detail.
D. "Christianization" of Pagan Customs, Symbols, and Terminology -- Christianity had to undergo a transformation so that pagan Rome could "convert" without giving up its old beliefs and rituals. The actual effect was to paganize official Christianity. "'A compound religion had been manufactured, of which ... Christianity furnished the nomenclature, and Paganism the doctrines and rights.' The idolatry of the Roman world, though deposed from its ancient pre-eminence, had by no means been demolished. Instead of this, its pagan nakedness had been covered with the garb of a deformed Christianity" (W.E. Vine). Pagan customs involving vestments, candles, incense, images, and processions were all incorporated into church worship and continue today.
The following customs and traditions associated with Xmas all have pagan/heathen origins. ("Xmas" is the more preferable form for the day, since it at least leaves the name of our Savior out of the heathen observance.) Naturally, Christians would not keep these customs for such evil and perverse reasons, but the fact of their origins remain -- "the customs of the people are vain" (Jer. 10:3), and should thereby be carefully considered by all who know and love the Lord: 1. The blasphemous "Christ's Mass" shortened to "Christ-mas" -- The Roman Catholic "Christ's Mass" is a special mass performed in celebration of Christ's birth. In this mass, Jesus is considered both the priest and the victim, represented by the Catholic priest who offers Him as a sacrifice each time the mass is performed. In offering this "sacrifice," the priest believes he has the power to change the bread and the wine of the Communion into Jesus' literal flesh and blood, requiring the people to worship these elements as they do God Himself. This is obviously a denial of the gospel, and thereby, a false gospel (a re-doing of the sacrifice for sin -- Heb. 9:12, 24-26; 10:10,12,14). Yet, many who cry out all year long against the blasphemous Roman Catholic system, at year-end embrace Rome's most blasphemous abomination of them all -- Christmas!
2. Nativity Scenes (tainted with paganism) -- Nearly every form of pagan worship descended from the Babylonian mysteries, which focus attention on the "mother-goddess" and the birth of her child. This was adapted to "Mary-Jesus" worship, which then easily accommodated the multitude of pagans "converted" to Christianity inside Constantine's Roman Catholic Church. If anyone were to erect statues (i.e., images) of Mary and Joseph by themselves, many within Protestant circles would cry "Idolatry!" But at Xmas time, an image of a little baby is placed with the images of Mary and Joseph, and it's called a "nativity scene." Somehow, the baby-idol "sanctifies" the scene, and it is no longer considered idolatry! (cf. Exo. 20:4-5a; 32:1-5a; 9-10a).
3. Christmas Tree -- Evergreen trees, because of their ability to remain green through-out the winter season when most other forms of vegetation are dormant, have long symbolized immortality, fertility, sexual potency, and reproduction, and were often brought into homes and set up as idols.
The full mystical significance of the evergreen can only be understood when one considers the profound reverence the ancient pagans had for all natural phenomena -- "To them, Nature was everywhere alive. Every fountain had its spirit, every mountain its deity, and every water, grove, and meadow, its supernatural association. The whispering of the trees ... was the subtle speech of the gods who dwelt within" (W.M. Auld, Christmas Traditions). This is nothing but nature worship or Animism.
The custom of bringing the tree into the home and decorating it as is done today has legendarily been attributed to Martin Luther. In truth, the modern custom has been lost in obscurity, but almost every culture has some such tradition. For ages, evergreen trees would be brought into the house during the winter as magic symbols of luck and hope for a fruitful year to come, It may also be that the star with which many of today's trees are topped did not originate as a representation of the star that the wise men followed, but rather a representation of the stars to which the ancient Chaldean astrologers looked for guidance.
The first decorating of an evergreen was done by pagans in honor of their god Adonis, who after being slain was brought to life by the serpent Aesculapius. The representation of the slain Adonis was a dead stump of a tree. Around this stump coiled the snake -- Aesculapius, symbol of life restoring. From the roots of the dead tree, then comes forth another and different tree -- an evergreen tree, symbolic to pagans of a god who cannot die! In Babylon, the evergreen tree came to represent the rebirth/reincarnation of Nimrod as his new son (Sun), Tammuz. In Egypt, this god was worshiped in a palm tree as Baal-Tamar. (Heathen people in the land of Canaan also adopted tree worship, calling it the Asherah -- a tree with its branches cut off was carved into a phallic symbol.) The fir tree was worshiped in Rome as the same new-born god, named Baal-Berith, who was restored to life by the same serpent. A feast was held in honor of him on December 25th, observed as the day on which the god reappeared on earth -- he had been killed, and was "reborn" on that day, victorious over death! It was called the "Birthday of the Unconquered Sun." Thus, the annual custom of erecting and decorating evergreen trees was brought down to us through the centuries by the pagan Roman Catholic Church -- the paganism of Tammuz and Baal, or the worship of the sun, mingled with the worship of Aesculapius the serpent. Whether erected in private homes or in churches, decorated or not, the evergreen tree is a glaring symbol of this false god.
4. Christmas Wreaths -- In pagan mythology, evergreen means eternal life and a never-dying existence. Made from evergreens, Christmas wreaths were most frequently round, which symbolized the sun (just as do halos in most religious art). Hence, the round Xmas wreaths stand for an eternal sun, a never-dying or self-renewing sun. In addition, the round form can also relate to the sign of the female, which stands for the regeneration of life. Because of these pagan associations, the Christian church was initially hostile towards the use of wreaths and other evergreen derivatives. But in the same way it Christianized other pagan traditions, the church soon found a way to confer its own symbolic meanings. For example, the sharp pointed leaves of the "male" holly came to represent Christ's crown of thorns and the red berries His blood, while the "female" ivy symbolized immortality (Sulgrave Manor, "A Tudor Christmas," p. 6). Such wreaths now not only adorn churches at Christmas time, but are also appearing during the equally pagan Easter season.
5. Mistletoe -- The use of the mistletoe plant (which is poisonous to both man and animals) can be traced back to the ancient Druids. (The Druids were pagan Celtic priests who were considered magicians and wizards.) It represented the false "messiah," considered by the Druids to be a divine branch that had dropped from heaven and grew upon a tree on earth. This is an obvious corruption of God's prophetic Word concerning Christ, "the Man the Branch," coming from heaven. The mistletoe symbolized the reconciliation between God and man. And since a kiss is the well known symbol of reconciliation, that is how "kissing under the mistletoe" became a custom -- both were tokens of reconciliation. The mistletoe, being a sacred plant and a symbol of fertility, was also believed to contain certain magical powers, having been brought to earth from heaven by a mistle thrush carrying it in its toes (hence the name). It was once known as the "plant of peace," and in ancient Scandinavia, enemies were reconciled under it (yet another reason why people came to "kiss under the mistletoe"). It was supposed to bring "good luck" and fertility, and even to protect from witchcraft the house in which it hung.
A kiss is also something which is, at times, associated with lust. So the practice of "kissing under the mistletoe" also had roots in the orgiastic celebrations in connection with the Celtic Midsummer Eve ceremony. At the time the mistletoe was gathered, the men would kiss each other as a display of their homosexuality. (The custom was later broadened to include both men and women.) Kissing under the mistletoe is also reminiscent of the temple prostitution and sexual license proliferating during Roman Saturnalia.
6. Santa Claus -- Santa Claus or "Father Christmas" is a corruption of the Dutch "Sant Nikolaas." ("Saint Nicholas" was the 4th century Catholic bishop of Myra in Asia Minor, who gave treats to children; he was canonized by the Roman Catholic Church, "regarded as a special friend and protector of children." The red suit comes from the fact that Catholic bishops and cardinals in Italy wear red.) Santa Claus was also known as "Kriss Kringle," a corruption of the German "Christ Kindl"-- Christ Child. This has to be one of the most subtle of Satan's blasphemies, yet most Christians are unaware of it.
Originally, the Santa Claus concept came from the pagan Egyptian god, Bes, a rotund, gnome-like personage who was the patron of little children. Bes was said to live at the North Pole, working year-round to produce toys for children who had been good and obedient to their parents. In Dutch, he was called "Sinter Klaas." Dutch settlers brought the custom to America. In Holland and other European countries, the original Santa Claus was actually a grim personage who traversed the countryside, determined to find out who really had been "naughty or nice." Those who had been acting up were summarily switched. The association of Santa Claus with snow, reindeer, and the North Pole suggests Scandinavian or Norse traditions of the Yuletide season. (In Babylonia, also, the stag [reindeer] was a symbol of the mighty one, Nimrod. The symbolism of antlers worn on the head of a noble leader would demonstrate his prowess as a hunter, and thereby, influence people to follow him.)
Santa is the blasphemous substitute for God! He is routinely given supernatural powers and divine attributes which only GOD has. Think about it. He is made out to be omniscient -- he knows when every child sleeps, awakes, has been bad or good, and knows exactly what every child wants (cf. Psa. 139:1-4). He is made out to be omnipresent -- on one night of the year he visits all the "good" children in the world and leaves them gifts, seemingly being everywhere at the same time. He is also made out to be omnipotent -- he has the power to give to each child exactly what each one wants. Moreover, Santa Claus is made out to be a sovereign judge -- he answers to no one and no one has authority over him, and when he "comes to town," he comes with a full bag of rewards for those whose behavior has been acceptable in his eyes.
Santa Claus has become one of the most popular and widely accepted and unopposed myths ever to be successfully interwoven into the fabric and framework of Christianity. It is a fact that Christ was born, and that truth should greatly rejoice the heart of every Christian. But the Santa Claus myth distorts the truth of Christ's birth by subtly blending truth with the myth of Santa Claus. When Christian parents lie to their children about Santa Claus, they are taking the attention of their children away from God and causing them to focus on a fat man in a red suit with god-like qualities. All of this teaches the child to believe that, just like Santa, God can be pleased with "good works," done in order to earn His favor. Also, they teach that no matter how bad the child has been, he will still be rewarded by God -- just as Santa never failed to bring gifts. Even in homes of professing Christians, Santa Claus has clearly displaced Jesus in the awareness and affections of children, becoming the undisputed spirit, symbol, and centerpiece of Christmas.
7. Christmas Eve -- "Yule" is a Chaldean word meaning "infant." Long before the coming of Christianity, the heathen Anglo-Saxons called the 25th of December "Yule day" -- in other words, "infant day" or "child's day" -- the day they celebrated the birth of the false "messiah"! The night before "Yule day" was called "Mother night." Today it is called "Christmas Eve." And it wasn't called "Mother night" after Mary, the mother of our Lord -- "Mother night" was observed centuries before Jesus was born. Semiramis (Nimrod's wife) was the inspiration for "Mother night," and "Child's day" was the supposed birthday of her son (Tammuz), the sun-god!
8. Yule Log -- The Yule log was considered by the ancient Celts a sacred log to be used in their religious festivals during the winter solstice; the fire provided promises of good luck and long life. Each year's Yule log had to be selected in the forest on Christmas Eve by the family using it, and could not be bought, or the superstitions associated with it would not apply. In Babylonian paganism, the log placed in the fireplace represented the dead Nimrod, and the tree which appeared the next morning (which today is called the "Christmas tree") was Nimrod alive again (reincarnated) in his new son (sun), Tammuz. (Still today in some places, the Yule log is placed in the fireplace on Christmas Eve, and the next morning there is a Christmas tree!)
Today's Yule log tradition comes to us from Scandinavia, where the pagan sex-and-fertility god, Jule, was honored in a twelve-day celebration in December. A large, single log was kept with a fire against it for twelve days, and each day for twelve days a different sacrifice was offered. The period now counted as the twelve days between Christmas and Epiphany was originally the twelve days of daily sacrifices offered to the Yule log. (What, then, are we really doing when we send "Yuletide greetings"? Are we really honoring Christ by sending greetings in the name of a Scandinavian fertility god? These are the same customs being practiced today as in ancient paganism! Only the names have changed.)
9. Candles -- Candles were lit by the ancient Babylonians in honor of their god, and his altars had candles on them. And as is well known, candles are also a major part of the ritualism of Roman Catholicism, which adopted the custom from heathenism. Candles approached the Yule log in ritual importance. Like the Yule log, they had to be a gift, never a purchase, and were lighted and extinguished only by the head of the household. Such candles stood burning steadily in the middle of the table, never to be moved or snuffed, lest death follow. The Yule candle, wreathed in greenery, was to burn through Christmas night until the sun rose or the Christmas service began (Sulgrave Manor, "A Tudor Christmas," p. 9). Obviously, candles should have no part in Christian worship, for nowhere in the New Testament is their use sanctioned.
10. Giving of Gifts -- The tradition of exchanging gifts has nothing to do with a reenactment of the Magi giving gifts to Jesus, but has many superstitious, pagan origins instead. One prominent tradition was the Roman custom of exchanging food, trinkets, candles, or statutes of gods during the mid-winter Kalends (the first day of the month in the ancient Roman calendar). This custom was transferred to December 25th by the Roman Church in keeping with the Saturnalian festival and in celebration of the benevolent St. Nicholas. [Is it not the height of ridiculousness to claim that giving one another presents properly celebrates Jesus' "birthday" (not that there is anything necessarily wrong in giving each other presents)? But what are we giving Him, if indeed we are specifically celebrating His incarnation?]
11. Christmas Goose -- The "Christmas goose" and "Christmas cakes" were both used in the worship of the Babylonian "messiah." The goose was considered to be sacred in many ancient lands, such as Rome, Asia Minor, India, and Chaldea. In Egypt, the goose was a symbol for a child, ready to die! In other words, a symbol of the pagan "messiah," ready to give his life (supposedly) for the world. This is obviously a satanic mockery of the truth.
12. Christmas Ham -- Hogs were slaughtered and the eating of the carcass was one of the central festivities of the Saturnalia. Each man would offer a pig as a sacrifice because superstition held that a boar had killed the sun deity Adonis. Hence, the tradition of the Christmas ham on Christmas Day and New Year's Day.
13. Christmas Stocking -- According to tradition, a poor widower of Myra, Turkey, had three daughters, for whom he could not provide a dowry. On Xmas-Eve, "Saint Nicholas" threw three bags of gold down the chimney, thereby saving the daughters from having to enter into prostitution. One bag rolled into a shoe, and the others fell into some stockings that had been hung to dry by the fire. Hence, the beginning of the tradition of the "Christmas stocking" or "boot."
14. Christmas Cards -- The first British Xmas card can be dated back to 1843. The first cards featured pictures of dead birds! Evidently, the popularity of hunting robin and wren on Christmas Day made the dead bird image an appropriate one for "holiday" cards. Often the text of the cards would also have a morbid tone. Later, the cards displayed dancing insects, playful children, pink-cheeked young women, and festively decorated Christmas trees. The first actual Xmas cards were really Valentine's Day cards (with different messages) sent in December. Mass production of Xmas cards in the United States can be traced back to 1875. Initially, the manufacturers thought of Xmas cards as a sideline to their already successful business in playing cards. But the "tradition" of sending cards soon caught on, leading to a very profitable business by itself.
Non bias explanation of Christmas traditions Boom
Thus says the Lord: "Learn not the way of the nations, nor be dismayed at the signs of the heavens because the nations are dismayed at them, for the customs of the peoples are vanity. A tree from the forest is cut down and worked with an axe by the hands of a craftsman. They decorate it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so that it cannot move.
Bible verse saying don't do Christmas trees Boom
Well no... I am asking for evidence from a reliable source, which no one seems able to provide. I ask for evidence and all I get is the same claims repeated over and over. And anyway I'm starting to question why I'm debating this anyway, because for Christians today Christmas actually means something.
And whichever way you look at it, Christmas was established by Christians and evolved into a meaningful holiday for Christians.
J-man45
The sources given are reliable, very reliable... they were contemporary historians who wrote about the times they participated in. Ironically, they are more reliable than any historian who wrote about Jesus, because none were ever his contemporary.
Given how many people are out shopping right now, I doubt Christmas means more than money and toys to most Christians.
[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]
Given how many people are out shopping right now, I doubt Christmas means more than money and toys to most Christians.
J-man45
But you're not a Christian, so you really wouldn't know, would you?
The Article i quoted was from a Christian,the author was basically giving reasons why Christmas should NOT be celebrated by Christians. I have to agree Christmas has lost all meaning.
Christmas has more to with Capatalism then it does with Christanity at this point.
[QUOTE="J-man45"]
[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]
Given how many people are out shopping right now, I doubt Christmas means more than money and toys to most Christians.
BloodJunkie213
But you're not a Christian, so you really wouldn't know, would you?
The Article i quoted was from a Christian,the author was basically giving reasons why Christmas should NOT be celebrated by Christians. I have to agree Christmas has lost all meaning.
Christmas has more to with Capatalism then it does with Christanity at this point.
Yes there are some current Christian denominations who reject the celebration of Christmas. Jehovah's Witnesses are among them.
It's the time of the year when I count the days til New Year's(one of my favorite "holiday's").
I love free food and liqour, so I celebrate for those reasons and the gathering of friends & family.
Look at that F***ing wall of text :oGazaAli
But you may learn something :D
But you're not a Christian, so you really wouldn't know, would you?J-man45
What does ascribing to a system of belief have anything to do with observing the character of the general public?
[QUOTE="BloodJunkie213"][QUOTE="GazaAli"]Look at that F***ing wall of text :oGazaAli
But you may learn something :D
its 10PM after a loooooong day so...I hear ya, just j/k. After being in that sarcasm thread I felt it necessary lol
Yes, I believe in the historical person Jesus Christ, but not in the magical powers that are attributed to him by christianity. I celebrate Christmas with my family, though it's more of an excuse to get together, eat well, and play crappy music. Christmas has lost its religious meaning for the most part, just like it lost its original meaning as Pagan festivity many years ago.
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