Do you believe in Jesus Christ? If no, do you celebrate....

[QUOTE="J-man45"]But you're not a Christian, so you really wouldn't know, would you?foxhound_fox

You're not a Christian so you can't really know what Christmas means to a Christian. Yes, I'm sure there are some that are misguided and are just concerned with materialism, but to come to such a conclusion by just "seeing people shopping" is a logical fallacy.

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]

[QUOTE="J-man45"]But you're not a Christian, so you really wouldn't know, would you?J-man45

You're not a Christian so you can't really know what Christmas means to a Christian. Yes, I'm sure there are some that are misguided and are just concerned with materialism, but to come to such a conclusion by just "seeing people shopping" is a logical fallacy.

I'm sure he's never spoken with a Christian ever his entire life about what Christmas means to them, just as you can't speak for the entire Christian population.

[QUOTE="J-man45"]

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]
What does ascribing to a system of belief have anything to do with observing the character of the general public?

Enid_Green

You're not a Christian so you can't really know what Christmas means to a Christian. Yes, I'm sure there are some that are misguided and are just concerned with materialism, but to come to such a conclusion by just "seeing people shopping" is a logical fallacy.

I'm sure he's never spoken with a Christian ever his entire life about what Christmas means to them, just as you can't speak for the entire Christian population.

You're right. I can't. Because by doing so I would also commit a logical fallacy. But that wasn't the point I was trying to make at all.

Christmas

is

NOT

of

pagan

origin

.

I believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and risen Savior, bottom line, but Christmas is not what it should be any longer.

You're not a Christian so you can't really know what Christmas means to a Christian. Yes, I'm sure there are some that are misguided and are just concerned with materialism, but to come to such a conclusion by just "seeing people shopping" is a logical fallacy.

J-man45

I believe in him but like Christmas more because of the presents.:D

'cause i want presents

Christmas?? if yes explain why you celebrate even you don't believe in Jesus Christ my Personal Savior.

LightGalaxy_07

[QUOTE="J-man45"]

You're not a Christian so you can't really know what Christmas means to a Christian. Yes, I'm sure there are some that are misguided and are just concerned with materialism, but to come to such a conclusion by just "seeing people shopping" is a logical fallacy.

foxhound_fox

But it is a logical fallacy. More specifically, a hasty generalization. And what's wrong with the gift part of it anyway? It promotes giving, selflessness. And guess what, the stuff you've seen about Christianity is in fact a vital part of the Christian life. I don't see what you are trying to argue there. And the last part of your statement, "wouldn't Christmas be one of the slowest commercial periods of the year?" Well I would say not necessarily, since as people have posted in this thread, many non-Christians do Christmas for getting more stuff, so they may well be a large part of the commercial fluxuations of Christmastime. And for Christians,as I have already said, there is nothing inherently wrong about the gift giving itself anyway, so what of it?

[QUOTE="jerk-o-tron2000"]

Christmas isn't about Jesus anyway.

optiow

But it is a logical fallacy. More specifically, a hasty generalization. And what's wrong with the gift part of it anyway? It promotes giving, selflessness. And guess what, the stuff you've seen about Christianity is in fact a vital part of the Christian life. I don't see what you are trying to argue there. And the last part of your statement, "wouldn't Christmas be one of the slowest commercial periods of the year?" Well I would say not necessarily, since as people have posted in this thread, many non-Christians do Christmas for getting more stuff, so they may well be a large part of the commercial fluxuations of Christmastime. And for Christians,as I have already said, there is nothing inherently wrong about the gift giving itself anyway, so what of it?

J-man45

i like to celebrate december 25th as a day that a lot of people dont need to work. Christmas is just a nickname for it, cause people like to call it that.

What it boils down to is that Christmas for many has transcended the meaning others place upon it. I'm sure many festivals have evolved in a similar fashion. If people want to utilse the period to recognize the birth of a person important to them that's fine, but to those who oppose those individuals who choose to use the time celebrate the family, reflect upon the year, present gifts to those important to them then that's, well, very un-Christian then isn't it…

Christmas isn't about Jesus anyway.

jerk-o-tron2000

because they believe in Santa :P

No I do not believe in Jesus. I celebrate Winter Solstice (Bruma) and the ancient Roman festival of Saturnalia, but for arguments sake I just call it Christmas. It's very hard to find greeting cards otherwise. Merry Bruma/Saturnalia and you Christian typesenjoy your midnight mass, i'll be downing beers while you're in a cold dreary church.

[QUOTE="jerk-o-tron2000"]

Christmas isn't about Jesus anyway.

bbkkristian

Still wrong, Not only does Christmas follow the my holiday of Saturnalia (i know i spelt that wrong, sue me), the 25 of December also happens to be the Birthday of Sol Invictus. Now i'm an open minded guy and i say can't we celebrate the birth of your Savour and the Festival of my Gods at the same time? Does it really matter what came first (unless we are debating history, thats a whole different story)?

[QUOTE="bbkkristian"][QUOTE="jerk-o-tron2000"]

Christmas isn't about Jesus anyway.

lordreaven

Still wrong, Not only does Christmas follow the my holiday of Saturnalia (i know i spelt that wrong, sue me), the 25 of December also happens to be the Birthday of Sol Invictus. Now i'm an open minded guy and i say can't we celebrate the birth of your Savour and the Festival of my Gods at the same time? Does it really matter what came first (unless we are debating history, thats a whole different story)?

No,you spelt it correctly and I'm with you on this one, Happy Saturnalia to you and your kin...

[QUOTE="lordreaven"]

Hmmmm... I wonder why its called CHRISTmas.bbkkristian

Still wrong, Not only does Christmas follow the my holiday of Saturnalia (i know i spelt that wrong, sue me), the 25 of December also happens to be the Birthday of Sol Invictus. Now i'm an open minded guy and i say can't we celebrate the birth of your Savour and the Festival of my Gods at the same time? Does it really matter what came first (unless we are debating history, thats a whole different story)?

No,you spelt it correctly and I'm with you on this one, Happy Saturnalia to you and your kin...

No I dont believe JC and I dont celebrate Xmas either.

Define how it is a logical fallacy.

Gift giving WITHOUT the expectation to recieve gifts is selfless. Giving gifts solely because it is a "part" of the holiday, and expecting stuff from other people is selfish. There are a lot of people in this world that give gifts at Christmas expecting stuff in return. Perhaps not because they want it, but they expect it because it is part of the holiday.

And giving material things people don't need isn't helpful. It just increases the amount of clutter that people build in their homes. And giving coats and food to charities isn't gift-giving, it is charity, which is done throughout the year. My point is about the focus on Christmas gift-giving... the going out and buying things with money you don't have (credit card debt is at an all time high right now in Canada, 148% of gross household income) for people who really won't appreciate the effort (making gifts is far more meaningful and often useful than buying useless crap).

You can disagree all you like, but the fact remains that Christmas was a pagan tradition and that the focus these days is more on the commercialism than the religious or community over-tones. And my point about the essence of Christianity still stands.

foxhound_fox

Did you just ignore my point about how many non-Christians use Christmas as the excuse for getting more stuff? Why can't Christmas be mostly about Christ's coming for the majority of Christians? Why do you so assuredly assert that Christmas no longer holds any Christian meaning?

Your logical fallacy: the sweeping generalization which you assert in every one of your posts, even though the only observation which brought you to that conclusion was observing the shopping habits of the general public. I said that the first time I mentioned the logical fallacy.

What point about the essence of Christianity did you make?

I believe in Jesus, but I don't believe in Christmas, nor do I celebrate it.JustPlainLucas

[QUOTE="bbkkristian"][QUOTE="jerk-o-tron2000"]

Christmas isn't about Jesus anyway.

lordreaven

Still wrong, Not only does Christmas follow the my holiday of Saturnalia (i know i spelt that wrong, sue me), the 25 of December also happens to be the Birthday of Sol Invictus. Now i'm an open minded guy and i say can't we celebrate the birth of your Savour and the Festival of my Gods at the same time? Does it really matter what came first (unless we are debating history, thats a whole different story)?

Did you just ignore my point about how many non-Christians use Christmas as the excuse for getting more stuff? Why can't Christmas be mostly about Christ's coming for the majority of Christians? Why do you so assuredly assert that Christmas no longer holds any Christian meaning?

Your logical fallacy: the sweeping generalization which you assert in every one of your posts, even though the only observation which brought you to that conclusion was observing the shopping habits of the general public. I said that the first time I mentioned the logical fallacy.

What point about the essence of Christianity did you make?

J-man45

Hmmmm... I wonder why its called CHRISTmas.bbkkristian

Still wrong, Not only does Christmas follow the my holiday of Saturnalia (i know i spelt that wrong, sue me), the 25 of December also happens to be the Birthday of Sol Invictus. Now i'm an open minded guy and i say can't we celebrate the birth of your Savour and the Festival of my Gods at the same time? Does it really matter what came first (unless we are debating history, thats a whole different story)?

[QUOTE="lordreaven"]

[QUOTE="bbkkristian"] Hmmmm... I wonder why its called CHRISTmas.Silenthps

Still wrong, Not only does Christmas follow the my holiday of Saturnalia (i know i spelt that wrong, sue me), the 25 of December also happens to be the Birthday of Sol Invictus. Now i'm an open minded guy and i say can't we celebrate the birth of your Savour and the Festival of my Gods at the same time? Does it really matter what came first (unless we are debating history, thats a whole different story)?

Is as good a time as any to get together with family and enjoy yourself so why not?

Christmas isn't about Jesus anyway.

jerk-o-tron2000

[QUOTE="Silenthps"][QUOTE="lordreaven"]

Still wrong, Not only does Christmas follow the my holiday of Saturnalia (i know i spelt that wrong, sue me), the 25 of December also happens to be the Birthday of Sol Invictus. Now i'm an open minded guy and i say can't we celebrate the birth of your Savour and the Festival of my Gods at the same time? Does it really matter what came first (unless we are debating history, thats a whole different story)?

lordreaven

[QUOTE="J-man45"]

Did you just ignore my point about how many non-Christians use Christmas as the excuse for getting more stuff? Why can't Christmas be mostly about Christ's coming for the majority of Christians? Why do you so assuredly assert that Christmas no longer holds any Christian meaning?

Your logical fallacy: the sweeping generalization which you assert in every one of your posts, even though the only observation which brought you to that conclusion was observing the shopping habits of the general public. I said that the first time I mentioned the logical fallacy.

What point about the essence of Christianity did you make?

foxhound_fox

lol...

Then our argument is of now almost pointless.

You did not make it clear through your wording that you were only talking about where you live. You should have specified. You said "most Christians" but failed to include the part about "in my area." lol

Sorry, though, I was probably still riled up a bit about earlier. For that I apologize.

Anyway, about the community thing, bettering and helping the community by showing Christ through works does point people to the divinity of Jesus. And I'm pretty sure Christianity has always been about loving God, loving others, etc.

It was nice debating with you, sir. Honestly I've had enough for an evening. lol

[QUOTE="Silenthps"][QUOTE="lordreaven"]

Still wrong, Not only does Christmas follow the my holiday of Saturnalia (i know i spelt that wrong, sue me), the 25 of December also happens to be the Birthday of Sol Invictus. Now i'm an open minded guy and i say can't we celebrate the birth of your Savour and the Festival of my Gods at the same time? Does it really matter what came first (unless we are debating history, thats a whole different story)?

Lockedge

[QUOTE="lordreaven"][QUOTE="Silenthps"] yeah... too bad, saturnalia isn't on Dec 25th and sol invictus post dates the celebration of Christmas.Silenthps

[QUOTE="Silenthps"]

[QUOTE="lordreaven"]Saturnalia actually is a whole week of celebrations with the 25th being the last (and best) Day. And Sol Invictus was a "cult" if you will that was revived in 274 AD that was a revival at the worshipping of Sol (who predates Jesus).lordreaven

I don't and I still celebrate Christmas.

For me, it's about being with my family and enjoying the "this time of the year" atmosphere, not any religion.

[QUOTE="lordreaven"][QUOTE="Silenthps"] No, Saturnalia is from the 17th to the 23rd. And Christmas was celebrated before 274 AD

Silenthps

hmm...maybe? If the bible is basically a historical document with some "color" added then, yes.

hmm...maybe? If the bible is basically a historical document with some "color" added then, yes.

tocklestein2005

[QUOTE="Silenthps"][QUOTE="lordreaven"] Okay fair enough, but i want proof on your part (non biased please).lordreaven

[QUOTE="Silenthps"][QUOTE="ball_bag"]Oh I see, so when you previously criticised someone for using a biased source, you were just being a whiny little hypocrite.ball_bag