Do You Believe Jesus Christ Rose From The Dead? (Poll)

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

That'a about the only argument they have to fall back on and they can offer no proof that the New Testament writers were lying. All they can offer is their personal opinion, like we are just supposed to believe their personal opinion. :)

A common occurance in these threads is that the non-believers consistently offer nothing more that personal opinions to support their position. :)

blackregiment

You supplied a list of points on how the veracity of a historical event and testimony about that event is considered and evaluated. That is hardly "proof" that the New Testament authors were liars, that Christ did not rise from the grave.

[QUOTE="maheo30"][QUOTE="Engrish_Major"] Well, it's too bad that I was not chosen before I was born to not have to spend an eternity in hellfire unlike you. Sucks for me, doesn't it?

Engrish_Major

Because Regeneration precedes faith. As R.C. Sproul wrote,

One of the most dramatic moments in my life for the shaping of my theology took place in a seminary ****oom. One of my professors went to the blackboard and wrote these words in bold letters: "Regeneration Precedes Faith."

These words were a shock to my system. I had entered seminary believing that the key work of man to effect rebirth was faith. I thought that we first had to believe in Christ in order to be born again. I use the words in order here for a reason. I was thinking in terms of steps that must be taken in a certain sequence. I had put faith at the beginning. The order looked something like this:

"Faith - rebirth -justification."

I hadn't thought that matter through very carefully. Nor had I listened carefully to Jesus' words to Nicodemus. I assumed that even though I was a sinner, a person born of the flesh and living in the flesh, I still had a little island of righteousness, a tiny deposit of spiritual power left within my soul to enable me to respond to the Gospel on my own. Perhaps I had been confused by the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. Rome, and many other branches of Christendom, had taught that regeneration is gracious; it cannot happen apart from the help of God.

No man has the power to raise himself from spiritual death. Divine assistance is necessary. This grace, according to Rome, comes in the form of what is called prevenient grace. "Prevenient" means that which comes from something else. Rome adds to this prevenient grace the requirement that we must "cooperate with it and assent to it" before it can take hold in our hearts.

This concept of cooperation is at best a half-truth. Yes, the faith we exercise is our faith. God does not do the believing for us. When I respond to Christ, it is my response, my faith, my trust that is being exercised. The issue, however, goes deeper. The question still remains: "Do I cooperate with God's grace before I am born again, or does the cooperation occur after?" Another way of asking this question is to ask if regeneration is monergistic or synergistic. Is it operative or cooperative? Is it effectual or dependent? Some of these words are theological terms that require further explanation.

A monergistic work is a work produced singly, by one person. The prefix mono means one. The word erg refers to a unit of work. Words like energy are built upon this root. A synergistic work is one that involves cooperation between two or more persons or things. The prefix syn -

means "together with." I labor this distinction for a reason. The debate between Rome and Luther hung on this single point. At issue was this: Is regeneration a monergistic work of God or a synergistic work that requires cooperation between man and God? When my professor wrote "Regeneration precedes faith" on the blackboard, he was clearly siding with the monergistic answer. After a person is regenerated, that person cooperates by exercising faith and trust. But the first step is the work of God and of God alone.

The reason we do not cooperate with regenerating grace before it acts upon us and in us is because we can- not. We cannot because we are spiritually dead. We can no more assist the Holy Spirit in the quickening of our souls to spiritual life than Lazarus could help Jesus raise him for the dead.

When I began to wrestle with the Professor's argument, I was surprised to learn that his strange-sounding teaching was not novel. Augustine, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield - even the great medieval theologian Thomas Aquinas taught this doctrine. Thomas Aquinas is the Doctor Angelicus of the Roman Catholic Church. For centuries his theological teaching was accepted as official dogma by most Catholics. So he was the last person I expected to hold such a view of regeneration. Yet Aquinas insisted that regenerating grace is operative grace, not cooperative grace. Aquinas spoke of prevenient grace, but he spoke of a grace that comes before faith, which is regeneration.

These giants of Christian history derived their view from Holy Scripture. The key phrase in Paul's Letter to the Ephesians is this: "...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have you been saved)" (Eph. 2:5). Here Paul locates the time when regeneration occurs. It takes place 'when we were dead.' With one thunderbolt of apostolic revelation all attempts to give the initiative in regeneration to man are smashed. Again, dead men do not cooperate with grace. Unless regeneration takes place first, there is no possibility of faith.

This says nothing different from what Jesus said to Nicodemus. Unless a man is born again first, he cannot possibly see or enter the kingdom of God. If we believe that faith precedes regeneration, then we set our thinking and therefore ourselves in direct opposition not only to giants of Christian history but also to the teaching of Paul and of our Lord Himself.

(from the book, The Mystery of the Holy Spirit, Tyndale House, 1990

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

[QUOTE="maheo30"] I'm so tired of the "they were liars argument." Such a statement shows a complete ignorance of Paul and his life as a pharisee and a jew as well as the times in which he lived. If Paul lies about it he gets caught by the other apostles. They lived in a community. They weren't isolated. maheo30

That'a about the only argument they have to fall back on and they can offer no proof that the New Testament writers were lying. All they can offer is their personal opinion, like we are just supposed to believe their personal opinion. :)

A common occurance in these threads is that the non-believers consistently offer nothing more that personal opinions to support their position. :)

That's right. The Word of God tells us.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"]

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

That would be funny if your assertion were true, which it is not. In Aisa, the Christian Church is growing at a rapid rate. In fact, they are sending missionaries to the western world.

blackregiment

You are moving the goal posts. You stated that God "predestines" more people in those countries. Now you are trying to say that because their are more people that identify thmeselvs as Christians in western countries that that means the same thing. It does not.

I explained the difference in election where God chooses some to be used in His work and the ability of all to freely seek the truth of the Lord in Christ.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

[QUOTE="Scoob64"]

its a religion that encourages people to love everyone and forgive... yall shouldn't mock it like that b/c you are likely to offend a lot of good hearted people... (I know Christianity was used to kill people in the middle ages- but that is against Jesus' teaching of course- He brought a new covenant of love for all people) Just like yall shouldn't mock buddhists or Jewish people... it shows you are immature and close minded to mock faiths that aren't hurting anyone.foxhound_fox

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] I believe I have provided you with more than my own personal opinion...

-Sun_Tzu-

You supplied a list of points on how the veracity of a historical event and testimony about that event is considered and evaluated. That is hardly "proof" that the New Testament authors were liars, that Christ did not rise from the grave.

Certainly when the eye-witnesses of the Holocaust, the Jewish survivors, wrote about the events, they weren't neutral. Does their bias null their contribution of evidence?

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"][QUOTE="maheo30"] You are alive aren't you? You still have time to repent don't you? That sort of fatalism doesn't fly. God will reject none that come to Him in fear and trembling wanting to be granted salvation. maheo30

Because Regeneration precedes faith. As R.C. Sproul wrote,

One of the most dramatic moments in my life for the shaping of my theology took place in a seminary ****oom. One of my professors went to the blackboard and wrote these words in bold letters: "Regeneration Precedes Faith."

These words were a shock to my system. I had entered seminary believing that the key work of man to effect rebirth was faith. I thought that we first had to believe in Christ in order to be born again. I use the words in order here for a reason. I was thinking in terms of steps that must be taken in a certain sequence. I had put faith at the beginning. The order looked something like this:

"Faith - rebirth -justification."

I hadn't thought that matter through very carefully. Nor had I listened carefully to Jesus' words to Nicodemus. I assumed that even though I was a sinner, a person born of the flesh and living in the flesh, I still had a little island of righteousness, a tiny deposit of spiritual power left within my soul to enable me to respond to the Gospel on my own. Perhaps I had been confused by the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. Rome, and many other branches of Christendom, had taught that regeneration is gracious; it cannot happen apart from the help of God.

No man has the power to raise himself from spiritual death. Divine assistance is necessary. This grace, according to Rome, comes in the form of what is called prevenient grace. "Prevenient" means that which comes from something else. Rome adds to this prevenient grace the requirement that we must "cooperate with it and assent to it" before it can take hold in our hearts.

This concept of cooperation is at best a half-truth. Yes, the faith we exercise is our faith. God does not do the believing for us. When I respond to Christ, it is my response, my faith, my trust that is being exercised. The issue, however, goes deeper. The question still remains: "Do I cooperate with God's grace before I am born again, or does the cooperation occur after?" Another way of asking this question is to ask if regeneration is monergistic or synergistic. Is it operative or cooperative? Is it effectual or dependent? Some of these words are theological terms that require further explanation.

A monergistic work is a work produced singly, by one person. The prefix mono means one. The word erg refers to a unit of work. Words like energy are built upon this root. A synergistic work is one that involves cooperation between two or more persons or things. The prefix syn -

means "together with." I labor this distinction for a reason. The debate between Rome and Luther hung on this single point. At issue was this: Is regeneration a monergistic work of God or a synergistic work that requires cooperation between man and God? When my professor wrote "Regeneration precedes faith" on the blackboard, he was clearly siding with the monergistic answer. After a person is regenerated, that person cooperates by exercising faith and trust. But the first step is the work of God and of God alone.

The reason we do not cooperate with regenerating grace before it acts upon us and in us is because we can- not. We cannot because we are spiritually dead. We can no more assist the Holy Spirit in the quickening of our souls to spiritual life than Lazarus could help Jesus raise him for the dead.

When I began to wrestle with the Professor's argument, I was surprised to learn that his strange-sounding teaching was not novel. Augustine, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield - even the great medieval theologian Thomas Aquinas taught this doctrine. Thomas Aquinas is the Doctor Angelicus of the Roman Catholic Church. For centuries his theological teaching was accepted as official dogma by most Catholics. So he was the last person I expected to hold such a view of regeneration. Yet Aquinas insisted that regenerating grace is operative grace, not cooperative grace. Aquinas spoke of prevenient grace, but he spoke of a grace that comes before faith, which is regeneration.

These giants of Christian history derived their view from Holy Scripture. The key phrase in Paul's Letter to the Ephesians is this: "...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have you been saved)" (Eph. 2:5). Here Paul locates the time when regeneration occurs. It takes place 'when we were dead.' With one thunderbolt of apostolic revelation all attempts to give the initiative in regeneration to man are smashed. Again, dead men do not cooperate with grace. Unless regeneration takes place first, there is no possibility of faith.

This says nothing different from what Jesus said to Nicodemus. Unless a man is born again first, he cannot possibly see or enter the kingdom of God. If we believe that faith precedes regeneration, then we set our thinking and therefore ourselves in direct opposition not only to giants of Christian history but also to the teaching of Paul and of our Lord Himself.

(from the book, The Mystery of the Holy Spirit, Tyndale House, 1990

Excellent points. This is what so many people fail to realize.

Here are some verses on Unconditional Election. The U in the T-U-L-I-P.

God is Sovereign Exo 15:18; 1Chr 29:11-12; 2Chr 20:6; Psa 22:28

1. He exercises that sovereignty in actively ordaining everything Deu 32:39; 1Sam 2:6-8; Job 9:12; Job 12:6-10; Psa 33:11; Psa 115:3; Psa 135:6; Isa 14:24; Isa 45:7; Act 15:18; Eph 1:11
   • Including matters of "chance" Pro 16:33; 1Ki 22:20, 34, 37
   • The wicked actions of men Gen 45:5; Gen 50:20; Exo 4:21; Jdg 14:1-4; Psa 76:10; Pro 16:4; Isa 44:28; Amos 3:6; Act 2:22-23; Act 4:27-28
   • The actions of evil spirits 1Sam 16:14-16; 1Ki 22:19-23; 1Chr 21:1/2Sam 24:1
   • The good actions of men John 15:16; Eph 2:10; Phi 2:12-13
   • The actions of good angels Psa 103:20; Psa 104:4
   • The actions of animals Num 22:28; 1Ki 17:4; Psa 29:9; Jer 8:7; Eze 32:4; Dan 6:22
   • The operations of all creation Gen 8:22; Psa 104:5-10; Psa 104:13-14; Psa 104:19-20; Mark 4:39
2. Man is not permitted to question his sovereign acts Job 33:12-13; Isa 29:16; Isa 45:9-10; Mat 20:1-16; Rom 9:19-24

God elects [i.e. chooses, predestines, foreordains]

1. His angels 1Tim 5:21
2. His peculiar people, Israel Exo 6:7; Deu 7:6-8; Deu 10:14-15; Psa 33:12; Isa 43:20-21
3. Individuals to salvation Psa 65:4; Mat 24:24; John 6:37; John 15:16; Act 13:48; Rom 8:28-30; Rom 9:10-24; Rom 11:5-7; Eph 1:3-6; Eph 1:11-12; 1The 1:4; 1The 5:9; 2The 2:13-14
4. Individuals to condemnation Exo 4:21; Rom 9:13; Rom 9:17-18; Rom 9:21-22; 1Pet 2:8

His motivation in election

1. His own good pleasure Eph 1:5; 2Tim 1:9
2. The display of his glory Isa 43:6-7; Rom 9:22-24; 1Cor 1:27-31; Eph 2:4-7; Pro 16:4
3. His special love Deu 7:6-8; 2The 2:13
4. His foreknowledge Rom 8:29; 1Pet 1:2
   • Which means his special love Jer 1:5; Amos 3:2; Mat 7:22-23; 1Cor 8:3; 2Tim 2:19; 1Pet 1:20
   • But not:
   • Any good [nobility, wisdom, power, choice, seeking] he foresees in anyone Deu 7:7; Rom 9:11-13; Rom 9:16; Rom 10:20; 1Cor 1:27-29; 1Cor 4:7; 2Tim 1:9

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

You supplied a list of points on how the veracity of a historical event and testimony about that event is considered and evaluated. That is hardly "proof" that the New Testament authors were liars, that Christ did not rise from the grave.

ImmoDuck

Certainly when the eye-witnesses of the Holocaust, the Jewish survivors, wrote about the events, they weren't neutral. Does their bias null their contribution of evidence?

Excellent points. So many fail to understand this and immediately attempt to discount anything written by a person of faith.

[QUOTE="zmbi_gmr"]

Don't group Jesus's teachings with Hate mongers who pick-it signs against others life styles.

foxhound_fox

And FYI....people just aren't perfect and expecting any one group to be so is unrealistic and illogical.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

You supplied a list of points on how the veracity of a historical event and testimony about that event is considered and evaluated. That is hardly "proof" that the New Testament authors were liars, that Christ did not rise from the grave.

ImmoDuck

Certainly when the eye-witnesses of the Holocaust, the Jewish survivors, wrote about the events, they weren't neutral. Does their bias null their contribution of evidence?

[QUOTE="ImmoDuck"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Never said that the New Testament authors were liars and that Christ did not rise from the grave...What I DID say was that the historical evidence supporting Christ's resurrection is extremely biased and from a historical standpoint his resurrection is inherently improbable.

-Sun_Tzu-

Certainly when the eye-witnesses of the Holocaust, the Jewish survivors, wrote about the events, they weren't neutral. Does their bias null their contribution of evidence?

So which one is it?

Matthew 28:1, Only Mary Magdalene and the other Mary found the empty tomb.

Mark 16:1, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome found the empty tomb.

Luke 23:55, 24:1 and 24:10, The women who had come with him out of Galilee. Among these women were Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James.

John 20:1-4, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb alone, saw the stone removed, ran to find Peter, and returned to the tomb with Peter and another disciple.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="ImmoDuck"]

Certainly when the eye-witnesses of the Holocaust, the Jewish survivors, wrote about the events, they weren't neutral. Does their bias null their contribution of evidence?

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"]My assertion that Christianity is overwhelmingly located in the Americas and Europe is not true? Are you really willing to go there? What are the percentages of Christians in China and India? Northern African countries? The Arab world? Why does god only 'predestine' less than 5% of the population there? Is he racist?

Engrish_Major

You are moving the goal posts. You stated that God "predestines" more people in those countries. Now you are trying to say that because their are more people that identify thmeselvs as Christians in western countries that that means the same thing. It does not.

I explained the difference in election where God chooses some to be used in His work and the ability of all to freely seek the truth of the Lord in Christ.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

You continue to ignore what I have written. God has and does elect certain people that He uses to work His plan. In addition, salvation in Christ is freely available to all that repent and seek God's truth in Christ. When one repents and accepts Christ as their Lord and Savior, God predestines them to be conformed to grow in santification to the image of Christ. It is a life long process and will be evidenced in their fruits.

Salvation in Christ is available to all through God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

jesus who ?

demondogx

So which one is it?

Matthew 28:1, Only Mary Magdalene and the other Mary found the empty tomb.

Mark 16:1, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome found the empty tomb.

Luke 23:55, 24:1 and 24:10, The women who had come with him out of Galilee. Among these women were Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James.

John 20:1-4, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb alone, saw the stone removed, ran to find Peter, and returned to the tomb with Peter and another disciple.

reiv

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] I believe there is more than eyewitness testimony that supports the occurrence of the Holocaust...And not all eyewitness testimony is equal. I've already provided a guideline used by historians to determine the credibility of eyewitness testimony earlier in this thread. Engrish_Major

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="ImmoDuck"]

Certainly when the eye-witnesses of the Holocaust, the Jewish survivors, wrote about the events, they weren't neutral. Does their bias null their contribution of evidence?

LJS9502_basic

No, its impossible, and if you believe this its time to grow up. SeanDog123

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] I believe there is more than eyewitness testimony that supports the occurrence of the Holocaust...And not all eyewitness testimony is equal. I've already provided a guideline used by historians to determine the credibility of eyewitness testimony earlier in this thread. -Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]The fact that an eyewitness choose to believe after witnessing an event does not negate the event. It reinforces it.

When a person is dead, he's dead. Why didin't God wait for Jesus soul like he does with everyone else?

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"]

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

You are moving the goal posts. You stated that God "predestines" more people in those countries. Now you are trying to say that because their are more people that identify thmeselvs as Christians in western countries that that means the same thing. It does not.

I explained the difference in election where God chooses some to be used in His work and the ability of all to freely seek the truth of the Lord in Christ.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

blackregiment

You continue to ignore what I have written. God has and does elect certain people that He uses to work His plan. In addition, salvation in Christ is freely available to all that repent and seek God's truth in Christ. When one repents and accepts Christ as their Lord and Savior, God predestines them to be conformed to grow in santification to the image of Christ. It is a life long process and will be evidenced in their fruits.

Salvation in Christ is available to all through God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]The fact that an eyewitness choose to believe after witnessing an event does not negate the event. It reinforces it.

LJS9502_basic

John would be the only one that at first glance seems different. The fact that some names were omitted or grouped is not important. And from the perspective of John....perhaps she was the only one that alterted them and thus gets the sole mention.;)

LJS9502_basic

I would expect all the biblical authors to agree, but they don't. From Jesus' birth to his death it is one big contradiction. Not just on the events but also on things like politics and lifestyles.

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]The fact that an eyewitness choose to believe after witnessing an event does not negate the event. It reinforces it.

LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"]Some of Jesus' own apostles didn't believe.Engrish_Major

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"]Some of Jesus' own apostles didn't believe.Engrish_Major

I am not saying that it doesn't reinforce it. What I am saying is that from a historical standpoint, biased eyewitness testimony that states something that is inherently improbable is not conclusive. Jesus may of very well of been resurrected, but the way that some people in this thread act as if Jesus's resurrection is a historical fact is baseless and unfounded.-Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] I am not saying that it doesn't reinforce it. What I am saying is that from a historical standpoint, biased eyewitness testimony that states something that is inherently improbable is not conclusive. Jesus may of very well of been resurrected, but the way that some people in this thread act as if Jesus's resurrection is a historical fact is baseless and unfounded.-Sun_Tzu-

When a person is dead, he's dead. Why didin't God wait for Jesus soul like he does with everyone else?

Papitar

So which one is it?

Matthew 28:1, Only Mary Magdalene and the other Mary found the empty tomb.

Mark 16:1, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome found the empty tomb.

Luke 23:55, 24:1 and 24:10, The women who had come with him out of Galilee. Among these women were Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James.

John 20:1-4, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb alone, saw the stone removed, ran to find Peter, and returned to the tomb with Peter and another disciple.

reiv

You are really reaching for straws now. By the way, you changed the wording of a couple of the verses. Here are the verses you referenced.

Mat 28:1In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher.

Mar 16:1And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

Luk 23:55And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulcher, and how his body was laid. (note, this was before the resurrection.)

Luk 24:1Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulcher, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

Luk 24:10It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary themother of James, and other womenthatwere with them, which told these things unto the apostles.

Joh 20:1The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulcher, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulcher.

There is no conflict in these verses, just different accounts of the same event with different levels of details provided by different authors.

If on a Saturday, a man takes his two sons and two of their friends to a baseball game and the following statements are made, are they lying? Did the event not happen?

The father tells a co-worker at work on Monday. "I had a great weekend, I took my son to a ball game."

One son tells friend at school, "My friend John and I went to a ball game this weekend."

The other son tells a friend, "My dad and I went to a sporting event this weekend."

The two friends tell other friends, "We went to the ball game with Tom's dad this weekend."

Who is lying? Did the event not occur?

.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]It's only your assumption that it's biased though. Saying someone rose from the dead would give one pause especially if they knew it were untrue.

LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"] I guess the question then is how many people he predestines. If it is just a small percentage of people that get into heaven, as logic dictates by your claim about salvation (if predestination is equal across the land), then Calvinism is inconsequential.

maheo30

You continue to ignore what I have written. God has and does elect certain people that He uses to work His plan. In addition, salvation in Christ is freely available to all that repent and seek God's truth in Christ. When one repents and accepts Christ as their Lord and Savior, God predestines them to be conformed to grow in santification to the image of Christ. It is a life long process and will be evidenced in their fruits.

Salvation in Christ is available to all through God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

It is simply another excuse, a reason put forth to self-justify why not to believe.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] It is biased though. It was Jesus's own disciples that claim he rose from the dead. -Sun_Tzu-

Here are some verses on Unconditional Election. The U in the T-U-L-I-P.

God is Sovereign Exo 15:18; 1Chr 29:11-12; 2Chr 20:6; Psa 22:28

1. He exercises that sovereignty in actively ordaining everything Deu 32:39; 1Sam 2:6-8; Job 9:12; Job 12:6-10; Psa 33:11; Psa 115:3; Psa 135:6; Isa 14:24; Isa 45:7; Act 15:18; Eph 1:11
   • Including matters of "chance" Pro 16:33; 1Ki 22:20, 34, 37
   • The wicked actions of men Gen 45:5; Gen 50:20; Exo 4:21; Jdg 14:1-4; Psa 76:10; Pro 16:4; Isa 44:28; Amos 3:6; Act 2:22-23; Act 4:27-28
   • The actions of evil spirits 1Sam 16:14-16; 1Ki 22:19-23; 1Chr 21:1/2Sam 24:1
   • The good actions of men John 15:16; Eph 2:10; Phi 2:12-13
   • The actions of good angels Psa 103:20; Psa 104:4
   • The actions of animals Num 22:28; 1Ki 17:4; Psa 29:9; Jer 8:7; Eze 32:4; Dan 6:22
   • The operations of all creation Gen 8:22; Psa 104:5-10; Psa 104:13-14; Psa 104:19-20; Mark 4:39
2. Man is not permitted to question his sovereign acts Job 33:12-13; Isa 29:16; Isa 45:9-10; Mat 20:1-16; Rom 9:19-24

God elects [i.e. chooses, predestines, foreordains]

1. His angels 1Tim 5:21
2. His peculiar people, Israel Exo 6:7; Deu 7:6-8; Deu 10:14-15; Psa 33:12; Isa 43:20-21
3. Individuals to salvation Psa 65:4; Mat 24:24; John 6:37; John 15:16; Act 13:48; Rom 8:28-30; Rom 9:10-24; Rom 11:5-7; Eph 1:3-6; Eph 1:11-12; 1The 1:4; 1The 5:9; 2The 2:13-14
4. Individuals to condemnation Exo 4:21; Rom 9:13; Rom 9:17-18; Rom 9:21-22; 1Pet 2:8

His motivation in election

1. His own good pleasure Eph 1:5; 2Tim 1:9
2. The display of his glory Isa 43:6-7; Rom 9:22-24; 1Cor 1:27-31; Eph 2:4-7; Pro 16:4
3. His special love Deu 7:6-8; 2The 2:13
4. His foreknowledge Rom 8:29; 1Pet 1:2
   • Which means his special love Jer 1:5; Amos 3:2; Mat 7:22-23; 1Cor 8:3; 2Tim 2:19; 1Pet 1:20
   • But not:
   • Any good [nobility, wisdom, power, choice, seeking] he foresees in anyone Deu 7:7; Rom 9:11-13; Rom 9:16; Rom 10:20; 1Cor 1:27-29; 1Cor 4:7; 2Tim 1:9

maheo30

Good stuff. There is some excellent theology deing discussed here today.

[QUOTE="maheo30"]

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

You continue to ignore what I have written. God has and does elect certain people that He uses to work His plan. In addition, salvation in Christ is freely available to all that repent and seek God's truth in Christ. When one repents and accepts Christ as their Lord and Savior, God predestines them to be conformed to grow in santification to the image of Christ. It is a life long process and will be evidenced in their fruits.

Salvation in Christ is available to all through God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

It is simply another excuse, a reason put forth to self-justify why not to believe.

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Perhaps you would elaborate.

Lansdowne5

That's right. The Word of God tells us that it only requires faith as small as a mustard seed.

[QUOTE="zmbi_gmr"]

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"] We can only get to heaven by believing in Christ?Engrish_Major

Here we go. I know where this discussion will lead before it even plays out, but yes the answer to your question is 'YES'. The only way to the father is through the Son...The only way to be saved is by believing in Jesus Christ.

So the scripture that your trying to twist to mean that all souls are pre-chosen really doesn't help your case. I only quickly had a chance to skim through the Scripture that you've pointed out, but I now ask you to read the verses before and after the scripture that you have referenced. You will easily see that you have taken the meaning out of context. I will get back on here later tonight to explain.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]That is still assumption. One doesn't automatically assume something just because at one time they may have heard him speak. For most people death = death.

LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Jesus's disciples were more than people who heard him speak at one time. They were his students, his followers, and his missionaries. It is not unreasonable to suggest that they were biased. -Sun_Tzu-

You are really reaching for straws now. By the way, you changed the wording of a couple of the verses. Here are the verses you referenced.

Mat 28:1In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher.

Mar 16:1And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

Luk 23:55And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulcher, and how his body was laid. (note, this was before the resurrection.)

Luk 24:1Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulcher, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

Luk 24:10It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary themother of James, and other womenthatwere with them, which told these things unto the apostles.

Joh 20:1The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulcher, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulcher.

There is no conflict in these verses, just different accounts of the same event with different levels of details provided by different authors.

If on a Saturday, a man takes his two sons and two of their friends to a baseball game and the following statements are made, are they lying? Did the event not happen?

The father tells a co-worker at work on Monday. "I had a great weekend, I took my son to a ball game."

One son tells friend at school, "My friend John and I went to a ball game this weekend."

The other son tells a friend, "My dad and I went to a sporting event this weekend."

The two friends tell other friends, "We went to the ball game with Tom's dad this weekend."

Who is lying? Did the event not occur?

.

blackregiment

Ok firstly I wasn't changing the wording. I was just noting down who was there without doing a direct copy. No harm intended. Sorry but I don't buy it. These accounts are too different for such a huge event.

reiv

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]He didn't have 500 that travelled with him daily. His group was smaller. Most people would pack it in after the death. That's human nature. You are assuming what you want to believe. Logically, what reason would they have to perpetrate that idea if they didn't believe it?

LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] I'm not saying that they didn't believe what they saw; all I am saying is what they may of saw might not of actually occurred. And from a logical standpoint, I don't think it is absurd to cynically state that they had a reason to essentially "make up" his resurrection. For the disciples to state that their leader is for all intents and purposes God and prove that he is God because he was resurrected is a huge boost of credibility to his teachings and gives his followers inherent political power. -Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Jesus's disciples were more than people who heard him speak at one time. They were his students, his followers, and his missionaries. It is not unreasonable to suggest that they were biased. -Sun_Tzu-

That is a false assumption. Neither Christ nor His followers were seeking "political power" in this world. Also, if you studied Biblical history, you would find that they were intensly persecucted.

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Also, if you studied Biblical history, you would find that they were intensly persecucted.

There were 10 periods of persecution of early Christians under the Roman Emperors Nero (Roman emperor AD 54–68 ) , Domitian (Roman emperor AD 81–96 ) , Trajan (Roman emperor AD 98–117 ), Marcus Aurelius (Roman emperor AD 161–180 ) , Septimius Severus (Roman emperor AD 193–211), Maximinus, Gaius Julius Verus (Roman emperor AD 235–238 ) , Decius (Roman emperor AD 249–251), Valerian (Roman emperor AD 253–260), Aurelian (Roman emperor AD 270–275), and Diocletian (Gaius Aurelius Valerius Diocletianus, reigned AD 284–305) and Maximian (reigned AD 285–305) who governed as emperors together. Why did the Christians choose death rather than recount their belief in Christ? source: Evidence that Demands a Verdict

Many early Church fathers and Christians were martyred for their belief in Christ rather than recanting their faith to save their lives.

The Apostles and early Christians were stoned, beheaded, boiled in oil, imprisoned, crucified, scourged, fed to lions, clothed in animal skins and then torn apart by wild beasts, tarred and lit on fire, disemboweled, burnt at the stake, etc., rather than recant their faith.

What's the question exactly?

Is a fairy tale can be real? Of course it can't. I don't see the point.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Vague there. Considering the early Christians were often put to death stating Jesus was resurrected was risky....not a positive outcome.

LJS9502_basic