More casualties would have happened if the bomb wasn't dropped. I'm sure that wasn't their intention though...DrSponge
um....what? How would there have been more civilian casualties if we didn't drop a bomb on a city full of civilians?
This topic is locked from further discussion.
More casualties would have happened if the bomb wasn't dropped. I'm sure that wasn't their intention though...DrSponge
um....what? How would there have been more civilian casualties if we didn't drop a bomb on a city full of civilians?
[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="Boba_Fett_3710"]And there everyone was, thinking that the last six years of war had just been a bit of fun. >_>Either way, it's too late now :lol:
But seriously, folks...
It seems like it definately showed the rest of the world that the US was through playing games.
Boba_Fett_3710
I'm just saying that somebody had to drop the bomb first.
We were the only nation with "the bomb". and who said one had to be dropped?
[QUOTE="DrSponge"]More casualties would have happened if the bomb wasn't dropped. I'm sure that wasn't their intention though...lilburtonboy748
um....what? How would there have been more civilian casualties if we didn't drop a bomb on a city full of civilians?
Please tell me you have actually studied Japan from 1938-1945... They were training their civilians to stand strong against the Americans. The Japanese were much more dedicated to their country. They aren't like people are today, they would have fought to the death. There would have been millions and millions of civilan casualties as they would have put up major resistance on every push by the allies. America would have lost 1 million men as well.Â
[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="Boba_Fett_3710"]And there everyone was, thinking that the last six years of war had just been a bit of fun. >_>Either way, it's too late now :lol:
But seriously, folks...
It seems like it definately showed the rest of the world that the US was through playing games.
Boba_Fett_3710
I'm just saying that somebody had to drop the bomb first.
That bloody bomb did not have to be dropped. It was a mistake.
Prove it.People who critisize it don't understand that we would have had to completely wipe out most of Japan to actually win in a land invasion. The only reason they surrendered was because they couldn't die honorably by fighting back...
People who deny this need to read some history books.
Wasdie
So more deaths are ethical than less deaths? And bare in mind more civilian deaths as well.:?I never said it was ethical... but of course if it were, then obviously that course should be taken.[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"] If it's ethical to, then of course, yes.Funky_Llama
However... I'm not at all sure that there would have been more deaths, anyway.
Studies say the casualties would have been higher had a convention war continued. You ca read the studies yourself...they exist.[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]I never said it was ethical... but of course if it were, then obviously that course should be taken.[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]So more deaths are ethical than less deaths? And bare in mind more civilian deaths as well.:?LJS9502_basic
However... I'm not at all sure that there would have been more deaths, anyway.
Studies say the casualties would have been higher had a convention war continued. You ca read the studies yourself...they exist.Source, if you please...Studies say the casualties would have been higher had a convention war continued. You ca read the studies yourself...they exist.LJS9502_basic
After Hiroshima, who would even want to keep fighting. It was a scare tactic, America being the terrorists, I won't argue with that.
[QUOTE="lilburtonboy748"][QUOTE="DrSponge"]More casualties would have happened if the bomb wasn't dropped. I'm sure that wasn't their intention though...Wasdie
um....what? How would there have been more civilian casualties if we didn't drop a bomb on a city full of civilians?
Please tell me you have actually studied Japan from 1938-1945... They were training their civilians to stand strong against the Americans. The Japanese were much more dedicated to their country. They aren't like people are today, they would have fought to the death. There would have been millions and millions of civilan casualties as they would have put up major resistance on every push by the allies. America would have lost 1 million men as well.Â
As well as more soldiers, but who cares about them ;)
[QUOTE="Wasdie"]Prove it.People who critisize it don't understand that we would have had to completely wipe out most of Japan to actually win in a land invasion. The only reason they surrendered was because they couldn't die honorably by fighting back...
People who deny this need to read some history books.
Funky_Llama
Read any book on WWII and Japan. Better yet, take some classes in college like I have.
I am not going to proove anything to you if you are to damn ignorant to go research the stuff before you say it. Websites and consperiacy theories on the internet are not credible sources. Actually go to the library, check out a history book, sit down, and read it.
[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="Wasdie"]Prove it.People who critisize it don't understand that we would have had to completely wipe out most of Japan to actually win in a land invasion. The only reason they surrendered was because they couldn't die honorably by fighting back...
People who deny this need to read some history books.
Wasdie
Read any book on WWII and Japan. Better yet, take some classes in college like I have.
I am not going to proove anything to you if you are to damn ignorant to go research the stuff before you say it. Websites and consperiacy theories on the internet are not credible sources. Actually go to the library, check out a history book, sit down, and read it.
So basically....you got no evidence. Hmm, next.Â
[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="Wasdie"]Prove it.People who critisize it don't understand that we would have had to completely wipe out most of Japan to actually win in a land invasion. The only reason they surrendered was because they couldn't die honorably by fighting back...
People who deny this need to read some history books.
Wasdie
Read any book on WWII and Japan. Better yet, take some classes in college like I have.
I am not going to proove anything to you if you are to damn ignorant to go research the stuff before you say it. Websites and consperiacy theories on the internet are not credible sources. Actually go to the library, check out a history book, sit down, and read it.
Say what? 'prove it'? What needs researching about that? :lol: If your claims are reliable, you should be able to prove them. And if you are able to prove them, why are you using diversionary tactics like asking me to go to the library?[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="Wasdie"]Prove it.People who critisize it don't understand that we would have had to completely wipe out most of Japan to actually win in a land invasion. The only reason they surrendered was because they couldn't die honorably by fighting back...
People who deny this need to read some history books.
Wasdie
Read any book on WWII and Japan. Better yet, take some classes in college like I have.
I am not going to proove anything to you if you are to damn ignorant to go research the stuff before you say it. Websites and consperiacy theories on the internet are not credible sources. Actually go to the library, check out a history book, sit down, and read it.
Dude I really don't think you know anything about American Hisory after reading some of the stuff you posted.
[QUOTE="Wasdie"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]Prove it.Funky_Llama
Read any book on WWII and Japan. Better yet, take some classes in college like I have.
I am not going to proove anything to you if you are to damn ignorant to go research the stuff before you say it. Websites and consperiacy theories on the internet are not credible sources. Actually go to the library, check out a history book, sit down, and read it.
Say what? 'prove it'? What needs researching about that? :lol: If your claims are reliable, you should be able to prove them. And if you are able to prove them, why are you using diversionary tactics like asking me to go to the library?Because he learned it himself. So you should learn it yourself as well. No one here is going to hold your hand and tell you everything. So go to the library, and learn.
[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="Wasdie"]Say what? 'prove it'? What needs researching about that? :lol: If your claims are reliable, you should be able to prove them. And if you are able to prove them, why are you using diversionary tactics like asking me to go to the library?Read any book on WWII and Japan. Better yet, take some classes in college like I have.
I am not going to proove anything to you if you are to damn ignorant to go research the stuff before you say it. Websites and consperiacy theories on the internet are not credible sources. Actually go to the library, check out a history book, sit down, and read it.
MOCHIRON_MAN
Because he learned it himself. So you should learn it yourself as well. No one here is going to hold your hand and tell you everything. So go to the library, and learn.
What happened to you being on my side? >_>Say what? 'prove it'? What needs researching about that? :lol: If your claims are reliable, you should be able to prove them. And if you are able to prove them, why are you using diversionary tactics like asking me to go to the library?Funky_Llama
Maybe he's too lazy to show research? I know I am. ;)
So basically....you got no evidence. Hmm, next.Â
jointed
I cant believe I am hearing this ignorance! Good god. Do I have to support some web link for everything? The internet is by far the worst source of information here. You need text books, you need historical documents...
Remember the Rape of Nan King? Or how about British fire-bombing German Cities killing thousands? Do I need to provide links for all of these things?
[QUOTE="DrSponge"]As well as more soldiers, but who cares about them ;)
Wasdie
Well of course. Japan would have been completely ruined 100%. It was the best decision we could have made. Japan as we know it today wouldn't exist, lets just say that.
Japan outgunned the American soldiers as well.[QUOTE="jointed"]So basically....you got no evidence. Hmm, next.Â
Wasdie
I cant believe I am hearing this ignorance! Good god. Do I have to support some web link for everything? The internet is by far the worst source of information here. You need text books, you need historical documents...
Remember the Rape of Nan King? Or how about British fire-bombing German Cities killing thousands? Do I need to provide links for all of these things?
Sooo, let's sum this up. You are here, with no evidence whatsoever to support your claims that the Japanese would have to be utterly eraticated to win WW2 without the use of nuclear weapons, and you're accusing us of ignorance...Dude I really don't think you know anything about American Hisory after reading some of the stuff you posted.
OptimusLupus
How many classes and books have you read and studied from with American History? Because nobody here sounds like they have ever once studied the Pacific Theater from 1941-1945, the time when America entered the war.Â
Did you know what the Japanese did to the Chinese? Do you know why they bombed Pearl Harbor on December 7th, 1941? These are things all American students are taught in high school and middle school. I have gone into detail with these with college classes and have done massive research papers on the subject. Do I need to photocopy those and put those up on the web to back my claims?
Outright attacking innocent civilians to save the lives of volunteer military troops is never right... it is heinous.foxhound_fox
First, ever hear of the draft? Secondly, their two targets were picked with careful planning, they could of hit Tokyo. The two cities they did hit were important military bases and factories. Although, I won't deny there were a lot of civies cilled. This is directed to everyone in general, but what happens when Japan figures out how to harness the power of the atomic bomb? They would use it without hesitation, turning the tide of the war. If the Americans hadn't of dropped the bomb, we probably wouldn't be here today. Oh, and there better not be any french people complaning, because we saved your asses. :P ( We as in North America)
[QUOTE="MOCHIRON_MAN"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]Say what? 'prove it'? What needs researching about that? :lol: If your claims are reliable, you should be able to prove them. And if you are able to prove them, why are you using diversionary tactics like asking me to go to the library?Funky_Llama
Because he learned it himself. So you should learn it yourself as well. No one here is going to hold your hand and tell you everything. So go to the library, and learn.
What happened to you being on my side? >_>I don't side with people. unless they are truly correct and I choose to agree. And Wasdie proves an excellent point mentioning the library. You see, knowledge is the key to success. and on subjects such as this, this is the time when a library is most useful.
What happened to you being on my side? >_>Because he learned it himself. So you should learn it yourself as well. No one here is going to hold your hand and tell you everything. So go to the library, and learn.
Funky_Llama
Maybe because he is also sick of every person on the internet not believeing anything that is said by anybody unless a source is sighted. It is pathetic how little many of the people in this thread actually know about history.
Source, if you please...Funky_LlamaSource? They are quite numerous..and if you had done any studies on the subject you should have run into some.:|
I think that America never really ever takes responsibility for their actions but wants everyobody's accolades when they do something good.
Take the American Holocaust for example, even Hiroshima, or slavery. America is known for brushing off inhumane acts. But it's cool, we put a man on the moon :roll:
[QUOTE="Wasdie"][QUOTE="DrSponge"]As well as more soldiers, but who cares about them ;)
DrSponge
Well of course. Japan would have been completely ruined 100%. It was the best decision we could have made. Japan as we know it today wouldn't exist, lets just say that.
Japan outgunned the American soldiers as well.To a point. I believe that American weapons were better but didn't preform as well in the conditions that they fought the Japanese in.
I think that America never really ever takes responsibility for their actions but wants everyobody's accolades when they do something good.
Take the American Holocaust for example, even Hiroshima, or slavery. America is known for brushing off inhumane acts. But it's cool, we put a man on the moon :roll:
Boba_Fett_3710
How about the Japanese in WWII, Germany in WWII, Bosina in the late 90s, Africa even today (Somolia, Darfur, and many others)? Slavery? Did you know that there is still slavery in the world today? Also, Veneszula was the last country in the world to outlaw slavery...
Get off your damn computer and actually learn some of these things before you start spouting off crap about America. Yes, America hasn't been the most pure country ever, but you completely blow it out of porportion.
[QUOTE="Rikusaki"]Think about this.
Why are we killing ourselves?
Not us Americans... Us as a human race.
Why is there so much hate and division in this world?
Why must we kill each-other?
Why war?
Why genocide?
Why killing at all?
Will we, the human race, ever get over this?
What is wrong with striving for world peace?
MOCHIRON_MAN
Our world is corrupt. People see people who have one simple difference, as enemies; for they are not "The same".
When one person does not have his way, they are willing to spill blood over by any means.
Power is a terrible thing. It sucks you in, makes you want more.
Individual power, is what divides us all. Take it away, and we come together. That day will be wonderful.
hopefully that day will be here soon. there's so much hate in the world, some ppl say thats just the way things are and except it, well i don't, and ever sense i've change my life style to a more positive one it has been so rewarding. the world is hurting because most are conditioned to like misery. itz every where, TV,Radio,Movies,video games,etc.....a peaceful life is possible but there are too many selfish miserable most of all lazy ppl in the world. they rather let things get out of hand then to spend that energy making the world a better place for all. but i have no worries...soon the evil doers and non believers will drown within their own negative lifestyles. nothing new, what you put out is what you get back, you can be blind and see that.
[QUOTE="Wasdie"][QUOTE="jointed"]Sooo, let's sum this up. You are here, with no evidence whatsoever to support your claims that the Japanese would have to be utterly eraticated to win WW2 without the use of nuclear weapons, and you're accusing us of ignorance...Funky_Llama
This is laughable, almost sig worthy.
[QUOTE="OptimusLupus"]Dude I really don't think you know anything about American Hisory after reading some of the stuff you posted.
Wasdie
How many classes and books have you read and studied from with American History? Because nobody here sounds like they have ever once studied the Pacific Theater from 1941-1945, the time when America entered the war.
Did you know what the Japanese did to the Chinese? Do you know why they bombed Pearl Harbor on December 7th, 1941? These are things all American students are taught in high school and middle school. I have gone into detail with these with college classes and have done massive research papers on the subject. Do I need to photocopy those and put those up on the web to back my claims?
I'm thirteen ( and Canadian at that) and I know more then the guys argueing with you. The estimated casualties for the American troops alone for an invansion of the mainland was around 1, 000, 000. Actually I know more about this stuff then our history teacher, who asked me to help teach the class.
[QUOTE="Boba_Fett_3710"]I think that America never really ever takes responsibility for their actions but wants everyobody's accolades when they do something good.
Take the American Holocaust for example, even Hiroshima, or slavery. America is known for brushing off inhumane acts. But it's cool, we put a man on the moon :roll:
Wasdie
How about the Japanese in WWII, Germany in WWII, Bosina in the late 90s, Africa even today (Somolia, Darfur, and many others)? Slavery? Did you know that there is still slavery in the world today? Also, Veneszula was the last country in the world to outlaw slavery...
Get off your damn computer and actually learn some of these things before you start spouting off crap about America. Yes, America hasn't been the most pure country ever, but you completely blow it out of porportion.
What in the hell is the "American holocaust"?
[QUOTE="Boba_Fett_3710"]I think that America never really ever takes responsibility for their actions but wants everyobody's accolades when they do something good.
Take the American Holocaust for example, even Hiroshima, or slavery. America is known for brushing off inhumane acts. But it's cool, we put a man on the moon :roll:
Wasdie
Get off your damn computer and actually learn some of these things before you start spouting off crap about America. Yes, America hasn't been the most pure country ever, but you completely blow it out of porportion.
What is your deal? Why so aggro, homie. I'm not some dolt, I read alot. That is why I am bringing these points forth.
Of course I know slavery is everywhere, I'm just saying it's part of America's gritty past and you can't deny it. Hell, I am a decendant of American Indian slaves so don't get me started, homeboy.
Besides, it's my right as an American to criticize whatever I damn well please.
[QUOTE="Wasdie"][QUOTE="Boba_Fett_3710"]I think that America never really ever takes responsibility for their actions but wants everyobody's accolades when they do something good.
Take the American Holocaust for example, even Hiroshima, or slavery. America is known for brushing off inhumane acts. But it's cool, we put a man on the moon :roll:
Boba_Fett_3710
Get off your damn computer and actually learn some of these things before you start spouting off crap about America. Yes, America hasn't been the most pure country ever, but you completely blow it out of porportion.
What is your deal? Why so aggro, homie. I'm not some dolt, I read alot. That is why I am bringing these points forth.
Of course I know slavery is everywhere, I'm just saying it's part of America's gritty past and you can't deny it. Hell, I am a decendant of American Indian slaves so don't get me started, homeboy.
Besides, it's my right as an American to criticize whatever I damn well please.
It's everyones right to criticize anything the want. but some people take it too far.
I have an announcement: fairies exist. It's true. I won't prove it to you, though. You need to get down to your local library and do some research on the subject. Until you've acquired the level of fairyology expertise that I have, don't bother posting. Honestly, the ignorance of fairies here is appalling.Funky_Llama
That's not a fair comparison. Because, if you go down to the library, you'll actually find books on WW11. But this just goes right through you doesn't it?
I have an announcement: fairies exist. It's true. I won't prove it to you, though. You need to get down to your local library and do some research on the subject. Until you've acquired the level of fairyology expertise that I have, don't bother posting. Honestly, the ignorance of fairies here is appalling.Funky_Llama
I lol'd :lol:
Trying to compare something which is very real, with the existance of fairies...
Yes, it was the right thing to do.
1. Hiroshima was a militarized city. The school were run by the army, the kids training to be officers and soldiers, and being shipped out as young as 14 years of age. Shops, down to your local tailor or blacksmith, were producing products for the army. Any local agriculture was getting harvested and shipped to the front lines. Yes, there were innocents killed, but the simple fact is that the entire area of Hiroshima was a legitimate military target. I have been there, I went to the museum...the Japanese have said as much themselves.
2. The US firebombed Japan for years and killed god knows how many people (go watch that movie where they interview McNamara iirc for a good lesson) and they did not surrender. Obviously a greater weapon and, more importantly, a sign of power was needed.
3. Samurai culture. Laugh if you want, but Japan was still very much a samurai culture. They believed in obeying their leaders unconditionally, and defending to the death your country and master. Attrition and huge losses just would not mean anything to the Japanese military; all the young men would die during a conventional invasion, then they would send the children. The children would die, so they would force civilians to fight. The only way to convince the japanese we could beat them is to say "Hey, we got a huuuuuuuuuuge stick, and your royal family and generals are not safe from it no matter where they go"
4. In hindsight, it was the right choice because it demonstrated how horrible a weapon it is. The US will always be demonized for this act, but we showed the world how horrible it is and as a result no nukes have been dropped for over six decades. We have the most practical, efficient weapons in the world but because we did decide to drop two in anger the world is afraid to use them, as are we.
One of them. Not the. Whose estimate was that, by the way?The estimated casualties for the American troops alone for an invansion of the mainland was around 1, 000, 000.
UnamedThing
[QUOTE="Wasdie"][QUOTE="Boba_Fett_3710"]I think that America never really ever takes responsibility for their actions but wants everyobody's accolades when they do something good.
Take the American Holocaust for example, even Hiroshima, or slavery. America is known for brushing off inhumane acts. But it's cool, we put a man on the moon :roll:
UnamedThing
How about the Japanese in WWII, Germany in WWII, Bosina in the late 90s, Africa even today (Somolia, Darfur, and many others)? Slavery? Did you know that there is still slavery in the world today? Also, Veneszula was the last country in the world to outlaw slavery...
Get off your damn computer and actually learn some of these things before you start spouting off crap about America. Yes, America hasn't been the most pure country ever, but you completely blow it out of porportion.
What in the hell is the "American holocaust"?
The slave trade. Back when South America and North America was importing massive amount of slave, millions of them died. It was horrible. What people dont know is that the US didnt import nearly as many slaves as other countries in the Americas. Most went to South America. A good chunk ended up in the USA so they by in no way are innocent, but it was a horrible thing that was ended finally in 1888-89...
[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]I have an announcement: fairies exist. It's true. I won't prove it to you, though. You need to get down to your local library and do some research on the subject. Until you've acquired the level of fairyology expertise that I have, don't bother posting. Honestly, the ignorance of fairies here is appalling.DrSponge
I lol'd :lol:
Trying to compare something which is very real, with the existance of fairies...
It is very real that the entire nation of Japan would have to have been wiped out in order to win WW2? Blegh...I have an announcement: fairies exist. It's true. I won't prove it to you, though. You need to get down to your local library and do some research on the subject. Until you've acquired the level of fairyology expertise that I have, don't bother posting. Honestly, the ignorance of fairies here is appalling.Funky_Llama
That was uncalled for.
[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]I have an announcement: fairies exist. It's true. I won't prove it to you, though. You need to get down to your local library and do some research on the subject. Until you've acquired the level of fairyology expertise that I have, don't bother posting. Honestly, the ignorance of fairies here is appalling.UnamedThing
That's not a fair comparison. Because, if you go down to the library, you'll actually find books on WW11. But this just goes right through you doesn't it?
WW11? Wow, I need to catch up.[QUOTE="UnamedThing"]One of them. Not the. Whose estimate was that, by the way?The estimated casualties for the American troops alone for an invansion of the mainland was around 1, 000, 000.
Funky_Llama
That was the militaries estimate after they studied the invasions of all of the surrounding pacific islands. It was a good estimate and was probably low. Many battles in the pacific saw America lose over 75% of the soliders they sent ot the islands while the Japanese forces were destroyed completely.
The slave trade. Back when South America and North America was importing massive amount of slave, millions of them died. It was horrible. What people dont know is that the US didnt import nearly as many slaves as other countries in the Americas. Most went to South America. A good chunk ended up in the USA so they by in no way are innocent, but it was a horrible thing that was ended finally in 1888-89...
Wasdie
I was referring to the genocide of the indigenous people but your answer is always better, right? :roll:
[QUOTE="Wasdie"]The slave trade. Back when South America and North America was importing massive amount of slave, millions of them died. It was horrible. What people dont know is that the US didnt import nearly as many slaves as other countries in the Americas. Most went to South America. A good chunk ended up in the USA so they by in no way are innocent, but it was a horrible thing that was ended finally in 1888-89...
Boba_Fett_3710
I was referring to the genocide of the indigenous people but your answer is always better, right? :roll:
Oh that too.Â
Don't get me wrong, America has a lot of blood on its hands, but people do still blow it out of porportion when cosidering the rest of world history.
[QUOTE="DrSponge"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]I have an announcement: fairies exist. It's true. I won't prove it to you, though. You need to get down to your local library and do some research on the subject. Until you've acquired the level of fairyology expertise that I have, don't bother posting. Honestly, the ignorance of fairies here is appalling.Funky_Llama
I lol'd :lol:
Trying to compare something which is very real, with the existance of fairies...
It is very real that the entire nation of Japan would have to have been wiped out in order to win WW2? Blegh... Ugh, ****ing GameSpot decides to delete my post. What I meant is that you are comparing something very possible with something not believable.[QUOTE="Boba_Fett_3710"][QUOTE="Wasdie"]The slave trade. Back when South America and North America was importing massive amount of slave, millions of them died. It was horrible. What people dont know is that the US didnt import nearly as many slaves as other countries in the Americas. Most went to South America. A good chunk ended up in the USA so they by in no way are innocent, but it was a horrible thing that was ended finally in 1888-89...
Wasdie
I was referring to the genocide of the indigenous people but your answer is always better, right? :roll:
Oh that too.Â
Don't get me wrong, America has a lot of blood on its hands, but people do still blow it out of porportion when cosidering the rest of world history.
Don't get me wrong, I love America, I'm just pointing out that it is not exempt from the heinous acts that humanity is prone to.
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