Evolution Thoery

NO! for evolution - rational... For god - irrational - CONTRADICTION!

i.e there is a contradiction in the basis for thoses beliefs.

diz360

That isn't what a contradiction is.

A contradiction is a set of two beliefs that are inversions of one another.

It is impossible to believe that "Evolution is true" and "Evolution is false" at the exact same time.

It is quite possible to believe "God exists" and "Evolution is true" at the same time. One belief may be rational while the other is irrational, but that doesn't make them contradictions to each other.

[QUOTE="Decessus"][QUOTE="diz360"]

[QUOTE="353535355353535"]

for instance, if I said that the universe was created by a magic nymph living under my finger nail, how much would that hurt evolution? it woulden't harm it in any way at all

diz360

But the universe was not created as you say. You can not just come out with a load of rubbish to prove a point.

The problem here is the basis for those beliefs. Evolution is well founded, but your fingernails have not been fully explored yet. I'm sure if science was to put your fingers under the microscope, they'd see you'd be wrong. Would you accept this evidence (in the same scientific framework as for evolution) as readliy as you've accepted evolution?

There's the contradiction.

That's not a contradiction, that's just being irrational.

NO! for evolution - rational... For god - irrational - CONTRADICTION!

i.e there is a contradiction in the basis for thoses beliefs.

I felt insulted when you said my logic is the same as religious people's logic.

I use a variety of examples to describe my argument. You just keep re-stating your POV.

I completely understand what you are saying. I don't understand why you're saying it, as you have not explained.

diz360

That's an attack on your logic. I wasn't insulting you personally.

If you felt offended, I guess my suggestion would be to grow a thicker skin.

[QUOTE="diz360"]

NO! for evolution - rational... For god - irrational - CONTRADICTION!

i.e there is a contradiction in the basis for thoses beliefs.

Decessus

That isn't what a contradiction is.

A contradiction is a set of two beliefs that are inversions of one another.

It is impossible to believe that "Evolution is true" and "Evolution is false" at the exact same time.

It is quite possible to believe "God exists" and "Evolution is true" at the same time. One belief may be rational while the other is irrational, but that doesn't make them contradictions to each other.

You just don't get it, do you...

The contradiction is in the BASIS for the beliefs, not the beliefs themselves. I have not deviated from this point.

You are simply not reading my posts, or choosing to ignore a simple truth.

If what you are saying is valid, why don't religions support evolution?

[QUOTE="Decessus"][QUOTE="diz360"]

NO! for evolution - rational... For god - irrational - CONTRADICTION!

i.e there is a contradiction in the basis for thoses beliefs.

diz360

That isn't what a contradiction is.

A contradiction is a set of two beliefs that are inversions of one another.

It is impossible to believe that "Evolution is true" and "Evolution is false" at the exact same time.

It is quite possible to believe "God exists" and "Evolution is true" at the same time. One belief may be rational while the other is irrational, but that doesn't make them contradictions to each other.

You just don't get it, do you...

The contradiction is in the BASIS for the beliefs, not the beliefs themselves. I have not deviated from this point.

You are simply not reading my posts, or choosing to ignore a simple truth.

If what you are saying is valid, why don't religions support evolution?

[QUOTE="Decessus"][QUOTE="diz360"]

NO! for evolution - rational... For god - irrational - CONTRADICTION!

i.e there is a contradiction in the basis for thoses beliefs.

diz360

That isn't what a contradiction is.

A contradiction is a set of two beliefs that are inversions of one another.

It is impossible to believe that "Evolution is true" and "Evolution is false" at the exact same time.

It is quite possible to believe "God exists" and "Evolution is true" at the same time. One belief may be rational while the other is irrational, but that doesn't make them contradictions to each other.

You just don't get it, do you...

The contradiction is in the BASIS for the beliefs, not the beliefs themselves. I have not deviated from this point.

You are simply not reading my posts, or choosing to ignore a simple truth.

If what you are saying is valid, why don't religions support evolution?

[QUOTE="diz360"][QUOTE="Decessus"][QUOTE="diz360"]

NO! for evolution - rational... For god - irrational - CONTRADICTION!

i.e there is a contradiction in the basis for thoses beliefs.

Ezgam3r

That isn't what a contradiction is.

A contradiction is a set of two beliefs that are inversions of one another.

It is impossible to believe that "Evolution is true" and "Evolution is false" at the exact same time.

It is quite possible to believe "God exists" and "Evolution is true" at the same time. One belief may be rational while the other is irrational, but that doesn't make them contradictions to each other.

You just don't get it, do you...

The contradiction is in the BASIS for the beliefs, not the beliefs themselves. I have not deviated from this point.

You are simply not reading my posts, or choosing to ignore a simple truth.

If what you are saying is valid, why don't religions support evolution?

You do know the Pope believes in evolution and the Big Bang?

Ezgam3r

Yup, and if you'd read previous posts in this thread, you'd see this has been covered already.

Catholicism has NO official position on evolution. It is still hotly debated in catholic circles In the 1950's papal recognition of evolution was announced, due to overwhelming scientific evidence. However, caveats such as Adam and Eve really existing were imposed.

so, wait, by your logic, if you're a member of a religion, you have to believe everything in that religion's canon and dogma?353535355353535

I'd think I'd have to belive the vast majority of it and not care to much about the bothersome bits.

Else, what is the point of identifying with a religion that you disagree with? Wouldn't that be odd?

After all, creationism vs evolution is pretty fundamental...

You claimed that Decessus insulted you earlier, which he didn't.

But I'm going to go ahead and do it for him. You're ****ing retarded. You really don't understand what a contradiction is. Simply believing in one thing that is rational, and one thing that is irrational, isn't a contradiction. Hell, being a theist and an evolutionist (for lack of a better term) don't really have anything to do with one another. So how can they contradict each other?

ProudLarry

Feel better now? Heard of transference?

Read my previous posts for the reasoning behind accepting evolution and accepting god at the same time.

You just don't get it, do you...

The contradiction is in the BASIS for the beliefs, not the beliefs themselves. I have not deviated from this point.

You are simply not reading my posts, or choosing to ignore a simple truth.

If what you are saying is valid, why don't religions support evolution?

diz360

I believe "A and not A". That is a contradiction.

I believe "A" based on reason and I believe "B" based on faith is not a contradiction.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070412141025.htm

93% of Human DNA is similiar to a chimps. Isn't really that hard to believe?

I hope once school starts back up, threads like this wont be so prevalent on the OT.Darthmatt

If you're so bothered by these threads, why post in them in the first place?

[QUOTE="Decessus"][QUOTE="diz360"]

[QUOTE="353535355353535"]

for instance, if I said that the universe was created by a magic nymph living under my finger nail, how much would that hurt evolution? it woulden't harm it in any way at all

diz360

But the universe was not created as you say. You can not just come out with a load of rubbish to prove a point.

The problem here is the basis for those beliefs. Evolution is well founded, but your fingernails have not been fully explored yet. I'm sure if science was to put your fingers under the microscope, they'd see you'd be wrong. Would you accept this evidence (in the same scientific framework as for evolution) as readliy as you've accepted evolution?

There's the contradiction.

That's not a contradiction, that's just being irrational.

NO! for evolution - rational... For god - irrational - CONTRADICTION!

i.e there is a contradiction in the basis for thoses beliefs.

See, now you're playing your personal opinions into the matter. You assume god is irrational, because it's irrational to you. The belief in god and the belief in evolution can co-exist with certain people.

[QUOTE="diz360"]

You just don't get it, do you...

The contradiction is in the BASIS for the beliefs, not the beliefs themselves. I have not deviated from this point.

You are simply not reading my posts, or choosing to ignore a simple truth.

If what you are saying is valid, why don't religions support evolution?

Decessus

I believe "A and not A". That is a contradiction.

I believe "A" based on reason and I believe "B" based on faith is not a contradiction.

I belive in A because of scientific disovery and evidence, but I also believe B without any scientific evidence or proof is a contradiction in terms of the rational basis for belief. Rational belief A has been given equal credance as the irrational belief in B.

To pick your seperate beliefs using such diverse and conflicting reasoning is a contradiction in the way you choose to believe things.

I hope once school starts back up, threads like this wont be so prevalent on the OT.Darthmatt

yeah, we'll get "there's a girl in my class that i like, what do i do? " threads.. i cant wait

[QUOTE="353535355353535"] so, wait, by your logic, if you're a member of a religion, you have to believe everything in that religion's canon and dogma?diz360

I'd think I'd have to belive the vast majority of it and not care to much about the bothersome bits.

Else, what is the point of identifying with a religion that you disagree with? Wouldn't that be odd?

After all, creationism vs evolution is pretty fundamental...

See, now you're playing your personal opinions into the matter. You assume god is irrational, because it's irrational to you. The belief in god and the belief in evolution can co-exist with certain people.

GettingTired

So how is believeing in god rational?

There are no facts here, just opinions. I'm not reading from a book - just stating my opinions. I'm well aware that some people believe in both god and evolution. I just can't understand why.

[QUOTE="diz360"]

You just don't get it, do you...

The contradiction is in the BASIS for the beliefs, not the beliefs themselves. I have not deviated from this point.

You are simply not reading my posts, or choosing to ignore a simple truth.

If what you are saying is valid, why don't religions support evolution?

Decessus

I believe "A and not A". That is a contradiction.

I believe "A" based on reason and I believe "B" based on faith is not a contradiction.

con·tra·dic·tion n.

1. a. The act of contradicting.

b. The state of being contradicted.

2. A denial.

3. Inconsistency; discrepancy.

4. Something that contains contradictory elements.

Believing in religion (faith) is inconsistent with science and ideas based upon science. If one of your beliefs is based on logic and science, and another based on nothing more then faith, there is an inconsistency...a discrepancy in your views...a contradiction!

[QUOTE="diz360"]

[QUOTE="353535355353535"] so, wait, by your logic, if you're a member of a religion, you have to believe everything in that religion's canon and dogma?353535355353535

I'd think I'd have to belive the vast majority of it and not care to much about the bothersome bits.

Else, what is the point of identifying with a religion that you disagree with? Wouldn't that be odd?

After all, creationism vs evolution is pretty fundamental...

How convenient!

[QUOTE="GettingTired"]

See, now you're playing your personal opinions into the matter. You assume god is irrational, because it's irrational to you. The belief in god and the belief in evolution can co-exist with certain people.

diz360

So how is believeing in god rational?

There are no facts here, just opinions. I'm not reading from a book - just stating my opinions. I'm well aware that some people believe in both god and evolution. I just can't understand why.

I'm not religious, I'm not going to argue about it. I'm simply stating the fallacy in your argument. Plenty of religions believe in evolution and god. I really don't know why. Maybe evolution is a way of explaining how they (humans) came about, and god is an explanation for how the universe came about.

I'm not religious, I'm not going to argue about it. I'm simply stating the fallacy in your argument. Plenty of religions believe in evolution and god. I really don't know why. Maybe evolution is a way of explaining how they (humans) came about, and god is an explanation for how the universe came about.

GettingTired

Which religions?

Does god really explain how the universe came about?

[QUOTE="Darthmatt"]I hope once school starts back up, threads like this wont be so prevalent on the OT.Decessus

If you're so bothered by these threads, why post in them in the first place?

[QUOTE="GettingTired"]

I'm not religious, I'm not going to argue about it. I'm simply stating the fallacy in your argument. Plenty of religions believe in evolution and god. I really don't know why. Maybe evolution is a way of explaining how they (humans) came about, and god is an explanation for how the universe came about.

diz360

Which religions?

Does god really explain how the universe came about?

Well, for starters Deism was among philosophers and scientists some few hundred years ago. Also, I think Unitarianism believes in science and a god.

con·tra·dic·tion n.

1. a. The act of contradicting.

b. The state of being contradicted.

2. A denial.

3. Inconsistency; discrepancy.

4. Something that contains contradictory elements.

Believing in religion (faith) is inconsistent with science and ideas based upon science. If one of your beliefs is based on logic and science, and another based on nothing more then faith, there is an inconsistency...a discrepancy in your views...a contradiction!

dnuggs40

Okay, I'll concede that technically I am wrong. If you use contradiction in the everyday sense of the word, then you're right believing in religion and believing in science is a contradiction.

However, much like how the word theory is used in everyday language differently than how it is used by scientists, contradiction in logic is different than contradiction in everyday use.

Logically speaking, believing in evolution and believing in God are not contradictions.

[QUOTE="dnuggs40"]

con·tra·dic·tion n.

1. a. The act of contradicting.

b. The state of being contradicted.

2. A denial.

3. Inconsistency; discrepancy.

4. Something that contains contradictory elements.

Believing in religion (faith) is inconsistent with science and ideas based upon science. If one of your beliefs is based on logic and science, and another based on nothing more then faith, there is an inconsistency...a discrepancy in your views...a contradiction!

Decessus

Okay, I'll concede that technically I am wrong. If you use contradiction in the everyday sense of the word, then you're right believing in religion and believing in science is a contradiction.

However, much like how the word theory is used in everyday language differently than how it is used by scientists, contradiction in logic is different than contradiction in everyday use.

Logically speaking, believing in evolution and believing in God are not contradictions.

No, logically speaking - they are.

If you can support your view with some additional evidence then please feel free to include it. Just re-stating the same old thing time after time, even when proved wrong, does little to bolster your argument.

[QUOTE="diz360"][QUOTE="GettingTired"]

I'm not religious, I'm not going to argue about it. I'm simply stating the fallacy in your argument. Plenty of religions believe in evolution and god. I really don't know why. Maybe evolution is a way of explaining how they (humans) came about, and god is an explanation for how the universe came about.

GettingTired

Which religions?

Does god really explain how the universe came about?

Well, for starters Deism was among philosophers and scientists some few hundred years ago. Also, I think Unitarianism believes in science and a god.

Fact: God did not tell Jesus, Moses, Hello Kitty, Spiderman, and George W Bush on how the universe come about. For christians, somebody just wrote a bible.

[QUOTE="diz360"][QUOTE="GettingTired"]

I'm not religious, I'm not going to argue about it. I'm simply stating the fallacy in your argument. Plenty of religions believe in evolution and god. I really don't know why. Maybe evolution is a way of explaining how they (humans) came about, and god is an explanation for how the universe came about.

GettingTired

Which religions?

Does god really explain how the universe came about?

Well, for starters Deism was among philosophers and scientists some few hundred years ago. Also, I think Unitarianism believes in science and a god.

Deism died out in the 1800s. Conservative Unitarianists believe in "sola scriptura" - the bible coming directly from god, so don't believe in evolution. Liberal unitarianists differ in believing in a wide range of views, with no clear foundation for belief.

It seems like you're scraping the bottom of the god-barrel there. Any more?

No, logially speaking - they are.

If you can support your view with some additional evidence then please feel free to include it. Just re-stating the same old thing time after time, even when proved wrong, does little to bolster your agrgument.

diz360

The Law of Noncontradiction:

"One cannot say of something that it is and that it is not in the same respect at the same time."

From Wikipedia:

In logic, a contradiction consists of a logical incompatibility between two or more propositions. It occurs when the propositions, taken together, yield two conclusions which form the logical inversions of each other.

[QUOTE="diz360"]

No, logially speaking - they are.

If you can support your view with some additional evidence then please feel free to include it. Just re-stating the same old thing time after time, even when proved wrong, does little to bolster your agrgument.

Decessus

The Law of Noncontradiction:

"One cannot say of something that it is and that it is not in the same respect at the same time."

From Wikipedia:

In logic, a contradiction consists of a logical incompatibility between two or more propositions. It occurs when the propositions, taken together, yield two conclusions which form the logical inversions of each other.

Noone is saying that!

People that believe in god and evolution are not contradicting themselves. They are selecting their diverse beliefs according to contrary reasoning.

See, you've already talked about the law of non-contradiction. Its not the propositions themselves but he seperate rational and irational processes for believing each one. How many times can I type this? I guess as many times as you keep throwing up red herrings.

[QUOTE="dnuggs40"]

con·tra·dic·tion n.

1. a. The act of contradicting.

b. The state of being contradicted.

2. A denial.

3. Inconsistency; discrepancy.

4. Something that contains contradictory elements.

Believing in religion (faith) is inconsistent with science and ideas based upon science. If one of your beliefs is based on logic and science, and another based on nothing more then faith, there is an inconsistency...a discrepancy in your views...a contradiction!

Decessus

Okay, I'll concede that technically I am wrong. If you use contradiction in the everyday sense of the word, then you're right believing in religion and believing in science is a contradiction.

However, much like how the word theory is used in everyday language differently than how it is used by scientists, contradiction in logic is different than contradiction in everyday use.

Logically speaking, believing in evolution and believing in God are not contradictions.

Deism died out in the 1800s. Conservative Unitarianists believe in "sola scriptura" - the bible coming directly from god, so don't believe in evolution. Liberal unitarianists differ in believing in a wide range of views, with no clear foundation for belief.

It seems like you're scraping the bottom of the god-barrel there. Any more?

diz360

This is actually what it says on the Wikipedia article you keep referring to

"Deism is generally considered to have died out as an influential school of thought by around 1800. It is probably more accurate, however, to say that Deism evolved into, and contributed to, other religious movements. The term Deist fell into disuse, but Deist ideas and influences did not. They can be seen in 19th-century liberal British theology and in the rise of Unitarianism, which adopted many of its ideas. Even today, there are a significant number of Deist Web site"

People that believe in god and evolution are not contradicting themselves.

diz360

Isn't this what I said two pages ago? Isn't that what this whole argument has been about?

[QUOTE="diz360"]

People that believe in god and evolution are not contradicting themselves.

Decessus

Isn't this what I said two pages ago? Isn't that what this whole argument has been about?

Perhaps for you. For me, it is the reasons why people belive things. After all, people can belive all sorts of stuff. The really important stuff people believe should be believed for good reasons.

Personal comfort, gut feelings and instict are not good reasons for belief to me. Accepting god unconditionally opens up all sorts of negative human traits, i.e. living lives in false hope, abandoning personal responsibility, bigotry and the biggest one of all: The possibility that even more supernatural hokum exists.

Unfounded belief in god is a gateway to all manner of irrational beliefs.

[QUOTE="diz360"]

Deism died out in the 1800s. Conservative Unitarianists believe in "sola scriptura" - the bible coming directly from god, so don't believe in evolution. Liberal unitarianists differ in believing in a wide range of views, with no clear foundation for belief.

It seems like you're scraping the bottom of the god-barrel there. Any more?

Decessus

This is actually what it says on the Wikipedia article you keep referring to

"Deism is generally considered to have died out as an influential school of thought by around 1800. It is probably more accurate, however, to say that Deism evolved into, and contributed to, other religious movements. The term Deist fell into disuse, but Deist ideas and influences did not. They can be seen in 19th-century liberal British theology and in the rise of Unitarianism, which adopted many of its ideas. Even today, there are a significant number of Deist Web site"

Someone else posted the link first. So Deism is now called unitarianism - as I mentioned before, there is no clear support of evolution there.

Your point is...

Perhaps for you. For me, it is the reasons why people belive things. After all, people can belive all sorts of stuff. The really important stuff people believe should be believed for good reasons.

Personal comfort, gut feelings and instict are not good reasons for belief to me. Accepting god unconditionally opens up all sorts of negative human traits, i.e. living lives in false hope, abandoning personal responsibility, bigotry and the biggest one of all: The possibility that even more supernatural hokum exists.

Unfounded belief in god is a gateway to all manner of irrational beliefs.

diz360

Confusion is the enemy of purposeful thought.

I completely agree with you that the beliefs that affect your actions should be grounded in rational thought and not irrational emotionalism.

Someone else posted the link first. So Deism is now called unitarianism - as I mentioned before, there is no clear support of evolution there.

Your point is...

diz360

The point is that a deist does not deny evolution.

[QUOTE="diz360"]

Perhaps for you. For me, it is the reasons why people belive things. After all, people can belive all sorts of stuff. The really important stuff people believe should be believed for good reasons.

Personal comfort, gut feelings and instict are not good reasons for belief to me. Accepting god unconditionally opens up all sorts of negative human traits, i.e. living lives in false hope, abandoning personal responsibility, bigotry and the biggest one of all: The possibility that even more supernatural hokum exists.

Unfounded belief in god is a gateway to all manner of irrational beliefs.

Decessus

Confusion is the enemy of purposeful thought.

I completely agree with you that the beliefs that affect your actions should be grounded in rational thought and not irrational emotionalism.

I knew our minds would meet somewhere along the line. :D

About deism, if it has now transformed into unitarianism, then "conservative" unitarians would disagree, according to wiki. The deist philosophy thrives on differeing viewpoints. The deist principles have more in common with humanism than christianity.

What if God lives underground? That would be so ironic.Vfanek

HAHAHAHA, oh jeez that would be hilarious. :lol:

I cant believe some people think that we come from monkeys! It's absolutely ridiculus! How can they teach this thoery (which is a thoery is a guess) in schools? Who agrees with me it should not be taught?

EDIT: Bad spelling

Slepanandiaz

SLAP!!

I knew our minds would meet somewhere along the line. :D

About deism, if it has now transformed into unitarianism, then "conservative" unitarians would disagree, according to wiki. The deist philosophy thrives on differeing viewpoints. The deist principles have more in common with humanism than christianity.

diz360

8) Yeah, it only took about five hours and probably over 100 posts.

I would almost be willing to say that if you were a Deist that you would be required by your belief system to support evolutionary theory. According to the wiki article, Deists support human reason and observed features of the natural world.

[QUOTE="diz360"]

I knew our minds would meet somewhere along the line. :D

About deism, if it has now transformed into unitarianism, then "conservative" unitarians would disagree, according to wiki. The deist philosophy thrives on differeing viewpoints. The deist principles have more in common with humanism than christianity.

Decessus

8) Yeah, it only took about five hours and probably over 100 posts.

I would almost be willing to say that if you were a Deist that you would be required by your belief system to support evolutionary theory. According to the wiki article, Deists support human reason and observed features of the natural world.

The thing I can't understand about deism is where god comes into it.

[QUOTE="Decessus"][QUOTE="diz360"]

I knew our minds would meet somewhere along the line. :D

About deism, if it has now transformed into unitarianism, then "conservative" unitarians would disagree, according to wiki. The deist philosophy thrives on differeing viewpoints. The deist principles have more in common with humanism than christianity.

diz360

8) Yeah, it only took about five hours and probably over 100 posts.

I would almost be willing to say that if you were a Deist that you would be required by your belief system to support evolutionary theory. According to the wiki article, Deists support human reason and observed features of the natural world.

The thing I can't understand about deism is where god comes into it.

The thing I can't understand about deism is where god comes into it.

diz360

I think God was just the first cause. He essentially got the ball rolling and then left it alone.

[QUOTE="diz360"]

The thing I can't understand about deism is where god comes into it.

Decessus

I think God was just the first cause. He essentially got the ball rolling and then left it alone.

Very logical appraoch.. My largest problem is not that people believe in god, but the fact that they take texts like the Bible as 100% accurate is just rediculous.

Very logical appraoch.. My largest problem is not that people believe in god, but the fact that they take texts like the Bible as 100% accurate is just rediculous.

sSubZerOo

I think much of it has to do with the simple fact that science, relatively speaking, is a fairly new thing to the human mind. Human beings are not born with the ability to reason. They have the potential sure, but if you are never taught how to properly use your mind then its easy to be fooled into believing in wishes and whims.

Plus, lets face it, life is tough. It's much easier to believe that there is a fatherly figure who is watching out for us and will make things all better in the end. It's better than facing the cold reality that the world is an uncaring place and if we destroy ourselves the rest of the world will exist just fine without us. Why take responsibility for our actions as human beings, when somewhere deep down inside we really believe that if things get bad enough, because we are God's special creation, he'll pull us out of the fire just before we doom ourselves completely?

Hopefully as time goes on, more and more people will embrace science and scientific thinking. Then eventually irrational beliefs based on myths and fairy tales will be a small minority.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

Incorrect.......you don't understand the term...as evolution...there are still missing transistional fossils so it's not a straight line but a theory that is more probable than not. Not perfect though.

Decessus

The lack of transitional fossils does nothing to hurt evolutionary theory. Evolution is the only reasonable explanation for the diversity of life. The amount of available evidence that exists that does support evolution makes it as close to a 100% certainty as any scientific theory ever can be. To believe that evolution doesn't really happen is silly and just shows that one is either ignorant, unintelligent, stubborn, or deceitful.

Read carefully next time....I never said evolution didn't occur. Discussions aren't worth it when the post isn't even read.:roll: