feminism attacking WWII sailor kissing nurse picture

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harashawn

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#201 harashawn
Member since 2008 • 27620 Posts

[QUOTE="harashawn"]Sure, it's better to ask. Do you ask a girl, "Can I kiss you?" every time before you kiss her?bloodling

So now you're saying that every time a guy kisses a girl, it's okay, unless the girl objects after the fact? Then it makes it wrong? How is a guy supposed to predict that?

Normal functioning, rational girls won't press charges because you kissed her. You have a pretty good chance of getting away with the horrible crime of showing affection.
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bloodling

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#202 bloodling
Member since 2006 • 5822 Posts

[QUOTE="bloodling"]

But if you don't object to it, it doesn't make it right. The person's reaction has absolutely no influence on whether or not it's right. A person's act isn't judged on how the victim reacts after the act...

harashawn

Yes, it absolutely is. Assault is only assault if the victim feels threatened, battery is only battery if contact is unwanted, theft is only theft if the victim feels there has been a loss. It is absolutely judged on how the victim reacts, and there is no argument which can be made against that fact.

It's not about how someone feels, it's about the context. How someone feels and in what context the act was committed are two completely different things.

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harashawn

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#203 harashawn
Member since 2008 • 27620 Posts

[QUOTE="harashawn"][QUOTE="bloodling"]

But if you don't object to it, it doesn't make it right. The person's reaction has absolutely no influence on whether or not it's right. A person's act isn't judged on how the victim reacts after the act...

bloodling

Yes, it absolutely is. Assault is only assault if the victim feels threatened, battery is only battery if contact is unwanted, theft is only theft if the victim feels there has been a loss. It is absolutely judged on how the victim reacts, and there is no argument which can be made against that fact.

It's not about how someone feels, it's about the context. How someone feels and in what context the act was committed are two completely different things.

The context directly influences how they would react.
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chrisrooR

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#204 chrisrooR
Member since 2007 • 9027 Posts

[QUOTE="harashawn"]Sure, it's better to ask. Do you ask a girl, "Can I kiss you?" every time before you kiss her?bloodling

So now you're saying that every time a guy kisses a girl, it's okay, unless the girl objects after the fact? Then it makes it wrong? How is a guy supposed to predict that?

It's about context. If you're in a relationship, it's normal to kiss in an unsuspecting manner. If you're in a large group of people, with a girl you just met, and it's new years eve....you can kiss her without asking, and the most that might happen is it gets awkward between you two. If you're on the street, and you walk up to a stranger and try and force a kiss on her...then we're talking about common sense here.
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bloodling

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#205 bloodling
Member since 2006 • 5822 Posts

[QUOTE="bloodling"]

[QUOTE="harashawn"] Yes, it absolutely is. Assault is only assault if the victim feels threatened, battery is only battery if contact is unwanted, theft is only theft if the victim feels there has been a loss. It is absolutely judged on how the victim reacts, and there is no argument which can be made against that fact.harashawn

It's not about how someone feels, it's about the context. How someone feels and in what context the act was committed are two completely different things.

The context directly influences how they would react.

Yes it does, which is probably why you got confused.

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MrGeezer

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#206 MrGeezer
Member since 2002 • 59765 Posts
[QUOTE="harashawn"] Yes, it absolutely is. Assault is only assault if the victim feels threatened, battery is only battery if contact is unwanted, theft is only theft if the victim feels there has been a loss. It is absolutely judged on how the victim reacts, and there is no argument which can be made against that fact.

If the cops drive by and happen to see me stealing a car, they can't arrest me until they manage to track down the owner and ask him how they feel about it?
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MrGeezer

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#207 MrGeezer
Member since 2002 • 59765 Posts
[QUOTE="MrGeezer"][QUOTE="harashawn"] You're misunderstanding my point. It is wrong because I would object to it. Whether or not I know about it is irrelevant, given the fact that I would object upon finding out.

Of course, as the thief, I can't possibly know that. I'm only taking five bucks, and for all I know you wouldn't care about five bucks. Therefore, it's okay for me to just take it and hope that you wouldn't mind?

And I'm still waiting for an answer here.
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harashawn

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#208 harashawn
Member since 2008 • 27620 Posts
[QUOTE="MrGeezer"] If the cops drive by and happen to see me stealing a car, they can't arrest me until they manage to track down the owner and ask him how they feel about it?

The state is the "victim" in that case. A crime that will get you arrested is against the state, not an individual.
Yes it does, which is probably why you got confused.bloodling
I wasn't confused.
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harashawn

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#209 harashawn
Member since 2008 • 27620 Posts
[QUOTE="MrGeezer"][QUOTE="MrGeezer"][QUOTE="harashawn"] You're misunderstanding my point. It is wrong because I would object to it. Whether or not I know about it is irrelevant, given the fact that I would object upon finding out.

Of course, as the thief, I can't possibly know that. I'm only taking five bucks, and for all I know you wouldn't care about five bucks. Therefore, it's okay for me to just take it and hope that you wouldn't mind?

And I'm still waiting for an answer here.

Sure, you could do that. It's $5. I probably wouldn't care.
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bloodling

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#210 bloodling
Member since 2006 • 5822 Posts

[QUOTE="bloodling"]Yes it does, which is probably why you got confused.harashawn
I wasn't confused.

Well either way, it's about the context, not the victim's reaction. And even if the context seemed right for one person, it doesn't mean that the context justifies the act for the other person, so it doesn't make it right or wrong, only more or less acceptable.

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MrGeezer

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#211 MrGeezer
Member since 2002 • 59765 Posts
Whether I could do it wasn't the question. I know I could do it. The question was is if I should just assume you wouldn't care, and then do it anyway.
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harashawn

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#212 harashawn
Member since 2008 • 27620 Posts
[QUOTE="MrGeezer"] The question was is if I should just assume you wouldn't care, and then do it anyway.

I don't think I'll miss those $5 too much; it's a pretty safe bet.
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MrGeezer

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#213 MrGeezer
Member since 2002 • 59765 Posts
[QUOTE="harashawn"][QUOTE="MrGeezer"] The question was is if I should just assume you wouldn't care, and then do it anyway.

I don't think I'll miss those $5 too much; it's a pretty safe bet.

Now how about $50? Lots of people don't care about $50, they're rich as $***. Should I assume that you're one of them, and just take it?
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Strakha

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#214 Strakha
Member since 2003 • 1824 Posts

Also it probably wasn't as socially unacceptable to kiss a girl like that back then. This is a famous kiss scene in 1939 classic "Gone with the Wind." No doubt one of the most popular movies of that era.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74kz5K70iAo

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harashawn

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#215 harashawn
Member since 2008 • 27620 Posts
[QUOTE="MrGeezer"][QUOTE="harashawn"][QUOTE="MrGeezer"] The question was is if I should just assume you wouldn't care, and then do it anyway.

I don't think I'll miss those $5 too much; it's a pretty safe bet.

Now how about $50? Lots of people don't care about $50, they're rich as $***. Should I assume that you're one of them, and just take it?

Now you're comparing kissing someone in celebration to stealing $50 from someone just because. Surely you can see how they are not the same. I know you are capable of using your discretion to decide whether someone is likely to object to an action or not.
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MrGeezer

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#216 MrGeezer
Member since 2002 • 59765 Posts
[QUOTE="harashawn"] Now you're comparing kissing someone in celebration to stealing $50 from someone just because. Surely you can see how they are not the same. I know you are capable of using your discretion to decide whether someone is likely to object to an action or not.

You were okay with the $5 comparison. What changed?
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Renevent42

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#217 Renevent42
Member since 2010 • 6654 Posts

It's a stupid comparison to begin with. The act of theft is theft on it's own...taking something that's not yours from another person without consent is theft. The act of kissing is not a crime or sexual assault on it's own...it's only sexual assault when the other person feels violated and the kissing is unwanted.

In this particular case, the woman had no problem with it. As already linked to, she actually was fine with it to the point where they are actually still in touch and send each other holiday cards.

If she didn't consider it sexual assualt and didn't mind, why the heck are your panties in a twist over it?

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MrGeezer

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#218 MrGeezer
Member since 2002 • 59765 Posts

It's a stupid comparison to begin with. The act of theft is theft on it's own...taking something that's not yours from another person without consent is theft. The act of kissing is not a crime or sexual assault on it's own...it's only sexual assault when the other person feels violated and the kissing is unwanted.

In this particular case, the woman had no problem with it. As already linked to, she actually was fine with it to the point where they are actually still in touch and send each other holiday cards.

If she didn't consider it sexual assualt and didn't mind, why the heck are your panties in a twist over it?

Renevent42
Then you agree that it's factually incorrect to state that something's only wrong/illegal if the "victim" has a problem with it. Which was exactly my point. Specifically with regards to sexual assault, that still doesn't address what I was saying. Part of what makes something wrong is the INTENT. Whether the victim is okay with it doesn't erase my INTENT. If I don't give her an opportunity to refuse consent, then I can't know how she feels about it until after I've done it. And at that point, it's too late. I've already acted on my intent. At that point she most certainly CAN express that she had a big problem with my actions. Which means that my INTENT was one of sexual assault.
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bloodling

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#219 bloodling
Member since 2006 • 5822 Posts

The act of kissing is not a crime or sexual assault on it's own...it's only sexual assault when the other person feels violated and the kissing is unwanted.

Renevent42

It's about what a person does, how exactly he does it and in what context he does it. It has nothing to do with the personal feelings of the person who is the victim. Someone might get assaulted and not care for some reason or just choose to ignore it, but that doesn't mean she wasn't assaulted. If she gave consent, then obviously that's different.

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Renevent42

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#220 Renevent42
Member since 2010 • 6654 Posts
Actually I'm not...if I am sitting down at a park bench and someone take an apple from my pick-nick...if I say "no problem man, you can have it!"...technically that person isn't stealing. If I object, then it's theft. He he takes it and I didn't know, that's theft too. Context matters. Just like sexual assualt...a big part of the law is if the victim feels violated, or if they are not able to consent due to age or some kind of handicap or are asleep for instance. Interesting you bring up intent too...the guy was elated the freaking WAR was over. He was wife his current girlfriend at the time too, so almost certainly his intent was not to "sexually assault" some girl...he was just really happy. Beyond that she didn't think it was sexual assault either. So really nothing in your lame examples shows this was any kind of sexual assault...hell the nurse even said it wasn't a romantic/sexual kiss...it was one of happiness. Unless you can show that: A) The sailor intent was to go around sexually assaulting women or b) The woman felt she was violated and assaulted or she was unable to consent due to age/mental or physical disabilities You really don't have a point. .
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MrGeezer

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#221 MrGeezer
Member since 2002 • 59765 Posts
Uh...you don't understand the difference between context and approval. One can make the argument that the overall social context of that scene kept it from being sexual assault, what you fail to realize is that how she felt about it was not part of that context. It couldn't have been because it hadn't happened yet. At that point in time, she didn't approve of him grabbing her and kissing her because he hadn't done it yet and had given no indication that he was about to. You can understand a simple sequence of events, yes? You establish context to determine if an action is okay, THEN you make the decision to do it, THEN people tell you whether or not they had a problem with it. The overall context comes first, the approval comes LAST (unless you ask before you do it, in which case the consent becomes part of the context).
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Leejjohno

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#222 Leejjohno
Member since 2005 • 13897 Posts

We can argue semantics as to how severe of an assault the word rape means but the nurse was in fact assaulted.

I don't think anyone has a right to forceably kiss a random woman on the street.

Blue-Sky

They were soldiers? It's important not to blow this out of proportion in the name of independence.

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Strakha

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#223 Strakha
Member since 2003 • 1824 Posts

Leave it to feminists to be almost 70 years late to the party.Zeviander

I think the feminazis are just pissed that guy helped kill their boy Hilter and that they will never be kissed like that.

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mahlasor

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#224 mahlasor
Member since 2010 • 1278 Posts

Feminist are a jelous bunch, so they try to demonize women who are more desireable than them, or maybe in an idiotic way. Try super hard to make them look like some victim even when they say themselves they are not.

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Lockedge

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#225 Lockedge
Member since 2002 • 16765 Posts

Feminist are a jelous bunch, so they try to demonize women who are more desireable than them, or maybe in an idiotic way. Try super hard to make them look like some victim even when they say themselves they are not.

mahlasor
Haha, what? The lack of understanding about feminism in this thread is...astounding. Wow.
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Slashless

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#226 Slashless
Member since 2011 • 9534 Posts

Haha, what? The lack of understanding about feminism in this thread is...astounding. Wow.Lockedge

Pretty astounding stuff bro.

I'm astounded.

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SPYDER0416

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#227 SPYDER0416
Member since 2008 • 16736 Posts

Radicals ruin everything, but just because a few crazies jump on this doesn't mean we should condemn all feminists. Women's rights is still a big deal.