Flaw in Christian beliefs

And I was saying it was a bad argument because it has no depth and you didn't even back it up with anything. Even if God knows everything, we don't. Therefore, God has to make things clear to us through actions or else we wouldn't understand.

Lansdowne5

It wasn't a bad arguement just because YOU didn't understand it. :lol:

And god making things clear to us, would be a lot different than judgement, now wouldn't it?

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"]

And I was saying it was a bad argument because it has no depth and you didn't even back it up with anything. Even if God knows everything, we don't. Therefore, God has to make things clear to us through actions or else we wouldn't understand.

Deity_Slapper

It wasn't a bad arguement just because YOU didn't understand it. :lol:

And god making things clear to us, would be a lot different than judgement, now wouldn't it?

Oh man, is it just me, or are we going round in circles? I understand exactly what you were trying to say, but it wasn't a good argument. Firstly, you have to understand why God is judging before you can decide if God knows everything he doesn't need to judge. Obviously from are simple Human perspective that may be how it seems but there is obviously a greater meaning for everything that God does. My point however, still stands. We cannot understand how or why God does things so he must demonstrate everything to us in a way we can understand. Through actions, such as judgement.

I understand exactly what you were trying to say, but it wasn't a good argument. Lansdowne5

Oh really? What was I trying to say? :)

Firstly, you have to understand why God is judging before you can decide if God knows everything he doesn't need to judge. Lansdowne5

Ok, god expert, why is god judging?

We cannot understand how or why God does things so he must demonstrate everything to us in a way we can understand.

Lansdowne5

My brain just exploded.

You might as well say, we can't understand why the sky is blue, so we need to look at the sky to figure out why it's blue. :?

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"]

I understand exactly what you were trying to say, but it wasn't a good argument. Deity_Slapper

Oh really? What was I trying to say? :)

Firstly, you have to understand why God is judging before you can decide if God knows everything he doesn't need to judge. Lansdowne5

Ok, god expert, why is god judging?

We cannot understand how or why God does things so he must demonstrate everything to us in a way we can understand.

Lansdowne5

My brain just exploded.

You might as well say, we can't understand why the sky is blue, so we need to look at the sky to figure out why it's blue. :?

You were trying to say that because God knows everything, he always knew we would sin, and he still made us, so because he knows everything there is no need for judgement.

Everything on Earth is physical , God is not. So the normal rules don't apply.

God is judging because of what we've done wrong. Even though God always knew what we would do, he had to give us the free will to do choose, or else he would be dictating over us. He gives us a choice, follow him and have eternal life or turn your back on him and face the consequences.

You were trying to say that because God knows everything, he always knew we would sin, and he still made us, so because he knows everything there is no need for judgement. Lansdowne5

No...try again.

God is judging because of what we've done wrong. Even though God always knew what we would do, he had to give us the free will to do choose, or else he would be dictating over us.

He gives us a choice, follow him and have eternal life or turn your back on him and face the consequences.

Lansdowne5

Is that not a dictatorship? Follow him or else? :?

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"] You were trying to say that because God knows everything, he always knew we would sin, and he still made us, so because he knows everything there is no need for judgement. Deity_Slapper

No...try again.

God is judging because of what we've done wrong. Even though God always knew what we would do, he had to give us the free will to do choose, or else he would be dictating over us.

He gives us a choice, follow him and have eternal life or turn your back on him and face the consequences.

Lansdowne5

Is that not a dictatorship? Follow him or else? :?

OK, this is why it's such a weak argument. You stated something without evidence, which I'm still not entirely sure whether it was 100% serious or not, you didn't back it up with anything and you've failed to clarify what you really meant by it. That's one heck of a way to make a solid argument Deity. :roll:

No, dictating is when you MAKE someone do something. We have the choice to, and also the choie not to.

OK, this is why it's such a weak argument. You stated something without evidence, which I'm still not entirely sure whether it was 100% serious or not, you didn't back it up with anything and you've failed to clarify what you really meant by it. That's one heck of a way to make a solid argument Deity. :roll: Lansdowne5

I'll tell you what I meant eventually, I just wanted you to figure it out for yourself.

No, dictating is when you MAKE someone do something. We have the choice to, and also the choie not to.

Lansdowne5

To threaten us with eternal torture, and say that is our only alternative to following him, he pretty much is MAKING us follow him...well, making YOU, and your fellow christians follow him... and it works since he knows exactly how to scare you into obedience, since he made you (supposedly) and knows all of your weaknesses. Including the one he exploits - he gave you the weakness of timidly submitting to the whims of those who more power than you.

I'm gonna log off now though, I've got some things to do. Late.

No, dictating is when you MAKE someone do something. We have the choice to, and also the choie not to.

Lansdowne5

:roll: Ah, well, then I suppose that Hitler's Germany wasn't a dictatorship; you could speak out against Hitler if you wanted, but you'd go to a concentration camp.

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"]

No, dictating is when you MAKE someone do something. We have the choice to, and also the choie not to.

Funky_Llama

:roll: Ah, well, then I suppose that Hitler's Germany wasn't a dictatorship; you could speak out against Hitler if you wanted, but you'd go to a concentration camp.

Um, well if we are discussing the actual definiton of the word. As long as someone has a choice then they are not being dictated over. If someone was to chain you up and forcefully MAKE you do something that would be dictating, like in the concentration camps you just referred to. So in affect, yes Hitler was a dictator.

But there is such a big difference Funky. Assuming God is the omnipotent all good being Christians believe he is. Then the judgement he makes must be correct. Therefore, he gives us the choice to decide ourselves, but he knows that unless the person chooses him, then they're not worthy of entering Heaven. This is not dictating because you have the choice, and if someone becomes a Christian because they're scared of going to Hades, then they're not really a Christian at all.

this points out a few flaws

IT MAY BE OFFENSIVE TO YOU

haggard_korn

and why did god introduce his son only recently (2008 years ago is very recent in earth's history.) ? All of those Maya, Inca, Roman, Greek, Egyptian, Chinese etc. cultures based on older religions were all for nothing, why didn't god warn them? It doesn't make sense, if god wants humankind to follow his route, then why didn't he tell it much much earlier? If he wants everyone to believe in him, then why doesn't he show himself in some way? Why didn't he tell the tribes in Africa and South America? Seriously, this whole god/religion concept is so full of bullcrap it isn't even funny. Only because we don't know what happens when you die, people think that there must be a purpose for everything. Well guess what, to me the only purpose of life is to live it. That's all.TheFlush

Why don't you go and actually read the Bible to find out the answer? I don't know but that seems logical to me.

It only seems like rubbish because you can't understand it. When a person can only imagine what they can see with their own two eyes things have gone seriously wrong.

So then, I have a question for you, do you believe in ANYTHING, absolutely anything, that is paranormal? Ghosts, miracles, visions, etc.

What do you think happens to us when we die? We turn into electricity or something???

and why did god introduce his son only recently (2008 years ago is very recent in earth's history.) ? All of those Maya, Inca, Roman, Greek, Egyptian, Chinese etc. cultures based on older religions were all for nothing, why didn't god warn them? It doesn't make sense, if god wants humankind to follow his route, then why didn't he tell it much much earlier? If he wants everyone to believe in him, then why doesn't he show himself in some way? Why didn't he tell the tribes in Africa and South America? Seriously, this whole god/religion concept is so full of bullcrap it isn't even funny. Only because we don't know what happens when you die, people think that there must be a purpose for everything. Well guess what, to me the only purpose of life is to live it. That's all.TheFlush

[QUOTE="TheFlush"]and why did god introduce his son only recently (2008 years ago is very recent in earth's history.) ? All of those Maya, Inca, Roman, Greek, Egyptian, Chinese etc. cultures based on older religions were all for nothing, why didn't god warn them? It doesn't make sense, if god wants humankind to follow his route, then why didn't he tell it much much earlier? If he wants everyone to believe in him, then why doesn't he show himself in some way? Why didn't he tell the tribes in Africa and South America? Seriously, this whole god/religion concept is so full of bullcrap it isn't even funny. Only because we don't know what happens when you die, people think that there must be a purpose for everything. Well guess what, to me the only purpose of life is to live it. That's all.mindstorm

[QUOTE="mindstorm"][QUOTE="TheFlush"]and why did god introduce his son only recently (2008 years ago is very recent in earth's history.) ? All of those Maya, Inca, Roman, Greek, Egyptian, Chinese etc. cultures based on older religions were all for nothing, why didn't god warn them? It doesn't make sense, if god wants humankind to follow his route, then why didn't he tell it much much earlier? If he wants everyone to believe in him, then why doesn't he show himself in some way? Why didn't he tell the tribes in Africa and South America? Seriously, this whole god/religion concept is so full of bullcrap it isn't even funny. Only because we don't know what happens when you die, people think that there must be a purpose for everything. Well guess what, to me the only purpose of life is to live it. That's all.TheFlush

1. Present some evidence which proves the Tower of Babel didn't exist. Claims aren't sufficient.

2. Again, prove that they didn't know.

[QUOTE="mindstorm"][QUOTE="TheFlush"]and why did god introduce his son only recently (2008 years ago is very recent in earth's history.) ? All of those Maya, Inca, Roman, Greek, Egyptian, Chinese etc. cultures based on older religions were all for nothing, why didn't god warn them? It doesn't make sense, if god wants humankind to follow his route, then why didn't he tell it much much earlier? If he wants everyone to believe in him, then why doesn't he show himself in some way? Why didn't he tell the tribes in Africa and South America? Seriously, this whole god/religion concept is so full of bullcrap it isn't even funny. Only because we don't know what happens when you die, people think that there must be a purpose for everything. Well guess what, to me the only purpose of life is to live it. That's all.TheFlush

1. And how do you know this?

2. Duh, that's why we as Christians are to be witnesses to the world.

[QUOTE="haggard_korn"]

this points out a few flaws

IT MAY BE OFFENSIVE TO YOU

mindstorm

Basically the whole Bible is taken out of context and made to look like it is not. This is the reason so many Christians loose their faith, because of people like this.

Mindstorm and Lansdowne5 sure go to ridiculous lengths to defend their view of the bible. I mean they dismiss scientific evidence all the time. Contradictions constantly make no sense to them and considered bad arguments. Their kind of a waste of time but also quite entertaining at times.

I'm not sure if Theists generally consider believing in God a "burden".

criinok

Point was not about Theists finding it a burden but for everyone else. It's basically saying if you don't know, it doesn't matter if you're a atheist or that your god is the sun, Ra, Zeus or Great magical guy #2227. If you do know however doing these things is wrong and you will be sentenced to hell. It's special treatment, plain and simple.

this points out a few flaws

IT MAY BE OFFENSIVE TO YOU

haggard_korn

The Flood - Biblical Story The Flood (a.k.a. Noah's Flood) is the worldwide cataclysmic event that utterly devastated the earth sometime between 2,000 and 3,000 BC. According to Genesis, chapters 6 through 9, earth's humanity had degenerated into such a cesspool that God, in His sovereignty, decided to purge the earth. He graciously chose to spare a single human family and a variety of representatives from the animal kingdom to repopulate the earth after the Flood waters receded. The tower of Babel Nimrod probably began to build his cities and the tower of Babel within a hundred years of the Flood. The confusion of tongues is usually thought to have occurred during the days of Peleg (Gen. 10:25). The chronology one derives from most English Bibles, which are translated from the Masoretic Hebrew text, places the time of Peleg only about 100 years after the Flood. This is probably incorrect. Barry Setterfield dates Peleg as living 530 years after the Flood, using the Vorlage Text and the Septuagint (LXX). So the flood happend around 3000 BC and the tower of babel was somewhere around 2500 BC. This is the story of Babel: - Before Babel, everyone on earth spoke the same language (Genesis 11:1). - The people decided to build a city and a tower with top-quality bricks and mortar (11:3). - This was to make a name for themselves and to prevent being scattered all over the earth (11:4). - God was not pleased with their motives (Genesis 1:28, 9:1, 9:7). - God confused their language to the extent that they could not understand one another's speech (11:7). There are some flaws. 1. Noah's family was the only human family after the flood to procreate, but we all know what happens when you mix blood relative DNA. Syndrome of Down and deformed children would reign those days. 2. Before 2500 BC everyone's supposed to speak the same language, yet the old egyptians used writing around 3200 BC and there are Eblaite and Akkadian scripts found dating from around 3000 BC. This makes the claim that everyone spoke the same language false. 3. Ziggurat is supposed to be the ruins of the tower of Babel. I can live with that, but it doesn't prove any of the (highly unlikely) events. Just like I believe that Jesus lived. The stories are probably blown out of proportion afterwards, because people back then were naieve, loved stories and were mostly illiterate. Like you see in undeveloped countries right now, when those people see electronics they think it''s magic. If you tell them scary stories, they're more likely to believe them.TheFlush

I'm a Young Earth Creationist and do not even believe the Flood to be that recent... Abraham wasn't even around until 2300-2000BC...

Mindstorm and Lansdowne5 sure go to ridiculous lengths to defend their view of the bible. I mean they dismiss scientific evidence all the time. Contradictions constantly make no sense to them and considered bad arguments. Their kind of a waste of time but also quite entertaining at times.

[QUOTE="criinok"]

I'm not sure if Theists generally consider believing in God a "burden".

Devil-Itachi

Point was not about Theists finding it a burden but for everyone else. It's basically saying if you don't know, it doesn't matter if you're a atheist or that your god is the sun, Ra, Zeus or Great magical guy #2227. If you do know however doing these things is wrong and you will be sentenced to hell. It's special treatment, plain and simple.

I don't believe it matters what religion one is, even if Atheist, as long as they have the right set of morals in life they can get into Heaven.

[QUOTE="haggard_korn"]

this points out a few flaws

IT MAY BE OFFENSIVE TO YOU

DJ_Novakain

[QUOTE="DJ_Novakain"][QUOTE="haggard_korn"]

this points out a few flaws

IT MAY BE OFFENSIVE TO YOU

mindstorm

[QUOTE="mindstorm"][QUOTE="DJ_Novakain"][QUOTE="haggard_korn"]

this points out a few flaws

IT MAY BE OFFENSIVE TO YOU

DJ_Novakain

[QUOTE="DJ_Novakain"][QUOTE="mindstorm"][QUOTE="DJ_Novakain"][QUOTE="haggard_korn"]

this points out a few flaws

IT MAY BE OFFENSIVE TO YOU

mindstorm

The whole thing about the sabbath really doesn't help your case. By disregarding the old testament, the religion is admitting itself to being flawed in the first place...

I find it amusing that instead of modern scientific, thinking religious people prefer to rely on a 2000 year old book written by uneducated tribesman.felixlynch777

Religion and science.....NOT mutually exclusive nor do they negate each other.;)

[QUOTE="felixlynch777"]I find it amusing that instead of modern scientific, thinking religious people prefer to rely on a 2000 year old book written by uneducated tribesman.LJS9502_basic

Religion and science.....NOT mutually exclusive nor do they negate each other.;)

I'm talking about evolution, not if god is real.

[QUOTE="felixlynch777"]I find it amusing that instead of modern scientific, thinking religious people prefer to rely on a 2000 year old book written by uneducated tribesman.LJS9502_basic

Religion and science.....NOT mutually exclusive nor do they negate each other.;)

[QUOTE="TheFlush"]and why did god introduce his son only recently (2008 years ago is very recent in earth's history.) ? All of those Maya, Inca, Roman, Greek, Egyptian, Chinese etc. cultures based on older religions were all for nothing, why didn't god warn them? It doesn't make sense, if god wants humankind to follow his route, then why didn't he tell it much much earlier? If he wants everyone to believe in him, then why doesn't he show himself in some way? Why didn't he tell the tribes in Africa and South America? Seriously, this whole god/religion concept is so full of bullcrap it isn't even funny. Only because we don't know what happens when you die, people think that there must be a purpose for everything. Well guess what, to me the only purpose of life is to live it. That's all.Lansdowne5

Why don't you go and actually read the Bible to find out the answer? I don't know but that seems logical to me.

It only seems like rubbish because you can't understand it. When a person can only imagine what they can see with their own two eyes things have gone seriously wrong.

So then, I have a question for you, do you believe in ANYTHING, absolutely anything, that is paranormal? Ghosts, miracles, visions, etc.

What do you think happens to us when we die? We turn into electricity or something???

Ahh, the old stereotype of Christians being afraid of death.

I'm talking about evolution, not if god is real.

felixlynch777

This is really the reason im agnostic. Scientifically, you can't really disprove god, which makes religious debates so futile...DJ_Novakain

[QUOTE="DJ_Novakain"] This is really the reason im agnostic. Scientifically, you can't really disprove god, which makes religious debates so futile...LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="DJ_Novakain"] This is really the reason im agnostic. Scientifically, you can't really disprove god, which makes religious debates so futile...DJ_Novakain

[QUOTE="DJ_Novakain"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="DJ_Novakain"] This is really the reason im agnostic. Scientifically, you can't really disprove god, which makes religious debates so futile...LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"]

[QUOTE="TheFlush"]and why did god introduce his son only recently (2008 years ago is very recent in earth's history.) ? All of those Maya, Inca, Roman, Greek, Egyptian, Chinese etc. cultures based on older religions were all for nothing, why didn't god warn them? It doesn't make sense, if god wants humankind to follow his route, then why didn't he tell it much much earlier? If he wants everyone to believe in him, then why doesn't he show himself in some way? Why didn't he tell the tribes in Africa and South America? Seriously, this whole god/religion concept is so full of bullcrap it isn't even funny. Only because we don't know what happens when you die, people think that there must be a purpose for everything. Well guess what, to me the only purpose of life is to live it. That's all.felixlynch777

Why don't you go and actually read the Bible to find out the answer? I don't know but that seems logical to me.

It only seems like rubbish because you can't understand it. When a person can only imagine what they can see with their own two eyes things have gone seriously wrong.

So then, I have a question for you, do you believe in ANYTHING, absolutely anything, that is paranormal? Ghosts, miracles, visions, etc.

What do you think happens to us when we die? We turn into electricity or something???

Ahh, the old stereotype of Christians being afraid of death.

Where did you get that conclusion from?

So this is it in a nutshell?

Hi, instead of posting something more tactful or productive I must analyze something that has nothing to do with me then I am going to tell everyone how I think I am right and everyone else is wrong, like it matters, because my ego compels me to do so. All I will really do is create a controversial as well as asinine argument that will piss christians off, because that's what I like to do, antagonize others.

So when the terrorists killed themselves in 9/11, they all went to hell?-RocBoys9489-

Even by the rules of Islam, they went to Hell. . . .

Think about First Nation's in North America, whom originally came from Asia thousands of years ago over the magic of the "seasonal ice bridge." Why were they not aware of god? Why is it that only wealthy states were originally aware of the presence of god? Are you telling me that anyone whom lived in these times living in North America simply went to hell because they were not informed?

four_of_clubs

yes, according to the Puritans of the 1600s they are children of Satan and deserve to be burned.

If a heaven exists based on Judea-christian texts, then children not exposed to one of the two religions are not insta-damned. If they lead a kind and virtuous life, they will still go to heaven.

The whole thing is this: If you are christian, you should except and follow the doctrines of Christianity for access to heaven. If you are not, then, as stated above, you are judged in a similar way to see if you were a good person. Remember, these African kids may have their own Deity and their own belief in heaven, so Christianity need not get involved at all for these people to achieve their salvation.

Things are really not as dogmatic as you make them out to be. Religion is something personal and if you have your belief then follow it, but you have no place to tell others they are wrong, especially on matters of faith.

[QUOTE="TheFlush"]and why did god introduce his son only recently (2008 years ago is very recent in earth's history.) ? All of those Maya, Inca, Roman, Greek, Egyptian, Chinese etc. cultures based on older religions were all for nothing, why didn't god warn them? It doesn't make sense, if god wants humankind to follow his route, then why didn't he tell it much much earlier? If he wants everyone to believe in him, then why doesn't he show himself in some way? Why didn't he tell the tribes in Africa and South America? Seriously, this whole god/religion concept is so full of bullcrap it isn't even funny. Only because we don't know what happens when you die, people think that there must be a purpose for everything. Well guess what, to me the only purpose of life is to live it. That's all.Lansdowne5

Why don't you go and actually read the Bible to find out the answer? I don't know but that seems logical to me.

It only seems like rubbish because you can't understand it. When a person can only imagine what they can see with their own two eyes things have gone seriously wrong.

So then, I have a question for you, do you believe in ANYTHING, absolutely anything, that is paranormal? Ghosts, miracles, visions, etc.

What do you think happens to us when we die? We turn into electricity or something???

I think its funny how some people talk about heaven and hell with so much self assure of what is going on. I also think that religius people are pretty arrogant since they talk about stuff they dont know as they know it all.

Take a bit of consideration on how social system works, power, institutions etc and you will understand the tru purpose of a church

I think if there is a god, he hates christians and others religious people. "Stop puting words in my mouth you crazy freaks"

He may think something along these lines. I hate the church, I dont dismiss Christ teachings though, he had a very powerfull mind and was clearly ahead of its time, but he is not son of god. Just a preacher of love and peace, like a hippie

And I dont care I what I say or who I beleive will take me into heaven. If that is required to enter there, I would be better off in Hell then. All the great people are there anyways......

I also think that religius people are pretty arrogant since they talk about stuff they dont know as they know it all.

Adrianstalker

[QUOTE="felixlynch777"][QUOTE="Lansdowne5"]

[QUOTE="TheFlush"]and why did god introduce his son only recently (2008 years ago is very recent in earth's history.) ? All of those Maya, Inca, Roman, Greek, Egyptian, Chinese etc. cultures based on older religions were all for nothing, why didn't god warn them? It doesn't make sense, if god wants humankind to follow his route, then why didn't he tell it much much earlier? If he wants everyone to believe in him, then why doesn't he show himself in some way? Why didn't he tell the tribes in Africa and South America? Seriously, this whole god/religion concept is so full of bullcrap it isn't even funny. Only because we don't know what happens when you die, people think that there must be a purpose for everything. Well guess what, to me the only purpose of life is to live it. That's all.Lansdowne5

Why don't you go and actually read the Bible to find out the answer? I don't know but that seems logical to me.

It only seems like rubbish because you can't understand it. When a person can only imagine what they can see with their own two eyes things have gone seriously wrong.

So then, I have a question for you, do you believe in ANYTHING, absolutely anything, that is paranormal? Ghosts, miracles, visions, etc.

What do you think happens to us when we die? We turn into electricity or something???

Ahh, the old stereotype of Christians being afraid of death.

Where did you get that conclusion from?

Right there is where my conclusion came from. Religion makes death seem more bearable, by saying when we die we go to some fairyland. And don't get me started about the rapture!:lol:

Right there is where my conclusion came from. Religion makes death seem more bearable, by saying when we die we go to some fairyland. And don't get me started about the rapture!:lol:

felixlynch777

As opposed to dreading the ever-present inevitability of death? What a terrible effect.

And lol, "fairyland," as if you've been there.

As opposed to dreading the ever-present inevitability of death? What a terrible effect.

Theokhoth

why would one dread death?