French Revolution vs American Revolution

[QUOTE="Squeets"]

[QUOTE="Laihendi"] That is correct. If you have no conception of property ownership then you are not a civilized person and you do not deserve to be treated as one. The Manifest Destiny was a great thing because it spread civilization across the entire continent. There were many government programs designed to civilize the natives. I am personally against such programs being operated by the government, but the point is that the natives were not being discriminated against.

Laihendi

So its okay for a tyrant power to be tyrannical so long as it is spreading civilization, Lai agrees with it, and the people it kills along the way are uncivilized because uncivilized people don't deserve human rights?

K.

So mentally retarded people have no rights?

People in a coma?

Children?

Crazy people?

All of these humans have no rights? Because according to the definition you just gave, since they can't conceptualize their own rights, they have none? Do you even think about this bullsh-t before you write it?

[QUOTE="BossPerson"]

Let it be known, Lai views Native Americans as squirrels 

Laihendi

That is correct. If you have no conception of property ownership then you are not a civilized person and you do not deserve to be treated as one.Laihendi

[QUOTE="BossPerson"]

Let it be known, Lai views Native Americans as squirrels 

Laihendi

[QUOTE="Laihendi"][QUOTE="BossPerson"]

Let it be known, Lai views Native Americans as squirrels 

BossPerson

[QUOTE="Laihendi"][QUOTE="BossPerson"]yea, this reasoning only works on paper. Your forgetting the reality, that millions of natives had lived on those lands for thousands of years. BossPerson

[QUOTE="MrPraline"][QUOTE="4myAmuzumament"]anything American is more significant by default.4myAmuzumament

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="Laihendi"] No it is not far. America is the only country founded on reason. All governments before it were ruled by power hungry tyrants who wanted to justify their crimes against humanity by saying they had divine right, or something equally absurd. The American Revolution showed the world what it meant to live in a moral society.Laihendi

#landofthefree

You do realize that it is possible to approach a subject with nuance, right? It is possible to acknowledge the good things that happened in early American history without rationalizing all of the barbarism and savagery that was orchestrated by the people who you call "civilized". 

At the time when the country that you say was founded on the principle of individual rights declared its independence, 20% of its population was in chains. If I were among that 20% I can imagine quite a few places that I'd rather be. It took until the 1960's, almost two hundred years after the Declaration of Independence and a hundred years after slavery was abolished for black people to even be afforded the same rights as everyone else. Not to mention that America was the only western country that had to resort to war in order for abolition to actually happen. 

CivilizedWorld TM 

You are completely missing my point. Property ownership comes from the mind, not from a piece of paper. The natives had no understanding of what it meant to own property and were therefore incapable of owning property. They could have been given a deed to land but they wouldn't have known what to do with it because they would have no understanding of what it meant.Laihendi

[QUOTE="Laihendi"][QUOTE="Squeets"]

So its okay for a tyrant power to be tyrannical so long as it is spreading civilization, Lai agrees with it, and the people it kills along the way are uncivilized because uncivilized people don't deserve human rights?

K.

Squeets

So mentally retarded people have no rights?

People in a coma?

Children?

Crazy people?

All of these humans have no rights? Because according to the definition you just gave, since they can't conceptualize their own rights, they have none? Do you even think about this bullsh-t before you write it?

The French revolution is important because it is the beginning of the end of Monarchies in Europe. It lead to concessions being made in almost all the states of Europe. As well the French basically fought the American Rev for them. Because saying a couple farmers could defeat the mightiest empire on earth is delusional

[QUOTE="Squeets"]

[QUOTE="Laihendi"]It has nothing to do with whether or not you deserve rights. That is an irrelevant and meaningless question. The question to ask is whether rights are inherent to your existence, and that is impossible by default if you are incapable of even recognizing their existence. Rights are an abstract concept that is created by the mind. If a mind is incapable of creating that concept then the concept does not exist.Laihendi

So mentally retarded people have no rights?

People in a coma?

Children?

Crazy people?

All of these humans have no rights? Because according to the definition you just gave, since they can't conceptualize their own rights, they have none? Do you even think about this bullsh-t before you write it?

do you not think it was possible to educate the natives the concept of rights instead of just declaring them incapable

because that just seems like an absurdly huge assumption. They might've been living in ways contrary to private property regimes, but that doesn't mean they were incapable of conceiving of private property or rights to it

how come it is always people who cling onto ideas of extremely strong individualism that end up somehow justifying the worst affronts against individuals

[QUOTE="Laihendi"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Behold, life in MoralSociety TM :

#landofthefree

-Sun_Tzu-

You do realize that it is possible to approach a subject with nuance, right? It is possible to acknowledge the good things that happened in early American history without rationalizing all of the barbarism and savagery that was orchestrated by the people who you call "civilized". 

At the time when the country that you say was founded on the principle of individual rights declared its independence, 20% of its population was in chains. If I were among that 20% I can imagine quite a few places that I'd rather be. It took until the 1960's, almost two hundred years after the Declaration of Independence and a hundred years after slavery was abolished for black people to even be afforded the same rights as everyone else. Not to mention that America was the only western country that had to resort to war in order for abolition to actually happen. 

CivilizedWorld TM 

if you are mentally disabled then you are by definition incapable of self awareness, rational thinking, etc. How often do you hear about a mentally disabled person owning property? Or voting? They don't because they can't. If you are incapable of exercising a right then in a practical sense that right does not exist.Laihendi

[QUOTE="Laihendi"][QUOTE="Squeets"]

So mentally retarded people have no rights?

People in a coma?

Children?

Crazy people?

All of these humans have no rights? Because according to the definition you just gave, since they can't conceptualize their own rights, they have none? Do you even think about this bullsh-t before you write it?

Rich3232

yeah but I am asking you for some explanation as to why they were incapable of conceptualizing property

they might have been fully capable but just found their communal belief system was more valuable to them

or is it that they just did not accept the rule of private property? I am confused by your argument

yeah but I am asking you for some explanation as to why they were incapable of conceptualizing property

they might have been fully capable but just found their communal belief system was more valuable to them

or is it that they just did not accept the rule of private property? I am confused by your argument

Rapporteur

There is a reason that the natives lived in tents and hunted with sticks and arrows, while the colonists lived in houses of brick and timbre, used guns, and sailed in ships. Technological advancements are only possible in a civilized society. If you choose to live from the earth rather than from the products of the ingenuity of your mind then you are not a civilized person.

American, for a few reasons.

1: The French revolution was heavily influenced by the American revoultion.

2: Napolean, in the end failed deminishing France's importance.

3: UK's power was deminished. Imagin if UK made the colonies an official part of the empire. Proboble look allot like Code Geuss's world with them becoming the second Roman empire.

4:US became that 3rd power figure of the European dominated world. US was the outside party that influenced European politics even before we became a super power.

all i want is a president who will give me free food, housing, and healthcare these things are basic human rights and its appalling that america will deny these things from its citizensLaihendi

The Civil War wasn't even about freeing the slaves so you are creating a red herring. Anyways I'm not claiming things were perfect with the US then, but the country was founded on the principle of inalienable individual rights. That principle was not perfectly implemented, but the fact that it was established at all is what sets the US apart from other countries.Laihendi

And to say that the country was founded on the principle of inalienable rights and immediately follow that up with the understatement that this principle was not perfectly implemented is astounding. The principle of inalienable rights is that all people have those rights - that's what makes them inalienable in the first place. When not all people are entitled to those rights then they aren't inalienable by definition. 

@hiphops - The concept of shared property is a contradiction. Two or more people cannot own the same thing. Something is owned by one person, or it is not owned at all.Laihendi

hll 

[QUOTE="Rapporteur"]

yeah but I am asking you for some explanation as to why they were incapable of conceptualizing property

they might have been fully capable but just found their communal belief system was more valuable to them

or is it that they just did not accept the rule of private property? I am confused by your argument

Laihendi

There is a reason that the natives lived in tents and hunted with sticks and arrows, while the colonists lived in houses of brick and timbre, used guns, and sailed in ships. Technological advancements are only possible in a civilized society. If you choose to live from the earth rather than from the products of the ingenuity of your mind then you are not a civilized person.

Yes, the trademark of a civilized society is more efficient killing tools. 

US probably. Breaking away from the British Empire was a pretty big deal and it laid out the foundation for various other revolutions. Also man, Lai sure has changed. [Quote="Laihendi"]all i want is a president who will give me free food, housing, and healthcare these things are basic human rights and its appalling that america will deny these things from its citizensAce6301

@ Sun Tzu

I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.Lincoln

Lincoln was a racist and he did not care about black people. He only used slavery as an excuse to keep the southern states from seceding because he was an authoritarian.

Also please tell me which is the mark of civilization: living in a crude tent made out of sticks and animal skins, or living in a house made of wood or stone?

US probably. Breaking away from the British Empire was a pretty big deal and it laid out the foundation for various other revolutions.

Also man, Lai sure has changed.

[Quote="Laihendi"]all i want is a president who will give me free food, housing, and healthcare these things are basic human rights and its appalling that america will deny these things from its citizensAce6301

00:20.45Laihendiall i want is a president who will give me free food, housing, and healthcare

00:21.12Laihendithese things are basic human rights and its appalling that america will deny these things from its citizens

00:22.27Laihendii have been living in this country for 19 years and will start paying taxes if i get a job, and it makes me sick the way politicians will ask me to vote for them when they won't even promise to give me what i deserve as an american human being

00:23.40BlackNetLOL ok what 'do you deserver'?

00:23.46BlackNetdeserve even

00:24.16Laihendii just told you free food, housing, and healthcare

00:24.35Laihendiand if the government would subsidize cable that would be nice

Do you have a source? I have never said that.Laihendi

How often do you hear about a mentally disabled person owning property? Or voting?Laihendi

[QUOTE="Squeets"]

[QUOTE="Laihendi"]It has nothing to do with whether or not you deserve rights. That is an irrelevant and meaningless question. The question to ask is whether rights are inherent to your existence, and that is impossible by default if you are incapable of even recognizing their existence. Rights are an abstract concept that is created by the mind. If a mind is incapable of creating that concept then the concept does not exist.Laihendi

So mentally retarded people have no rights?

People in a coma?

Children?

Crazy people?

All of these humans have no rights? Because according to the definition you just gave, since they can't conceptualize their own rights, they have none? Do you even think about this bullsh-t before you write it?

In addition to being a spoiled, entitled brat of a teenager who lives off the parental tit and has the nerve to call other people moochers you're kind of a f*cking scumbag, you know that?

Children are not thinking and rational people. They simply do what they are told. They eat what they'd told to eat, they sleep when they're told to sleep, etc.worlock77

[QUOTE="Laihendi"]Do you have a source? I have never said that.Ace6301

I was young and naive, and that was before I read Atlas Shrugged.Laihendi

1. Didn't you say that you arrived at your opinions well before you read Atlas Shrugged?

2. You have no sense of irony, do you?

[QUOTE="Rich3232"][QUOTE="Laihendi"] Obviously if you are in a coma you still have rights because you are still capable of conceptualizing them. Unconsciousness is a temporary condition that does not change the fundamental nature of the mind. Children do not have rights and you have clearly never dealt with children if you believe they do. Children are not thinking and rational people. They simply do what they are told. They eat what they'd told to eat, they sleep when they're told to sleep, etc. No the mentally disabled do not have rights because if you are mentally disabled then you are by definition incapable of self awareness, rational thinking, etc. How often do you hear about a mentally disabled person owning property? Or voting? They don't because they can't. If you are incapable of exercising a right then in a practical sense that right does not exist.Laihendi

Man with Down Syndrome Owns Restaurant

Just because a vast majority of mentally retarded people don't own property or vote doesn't mean they have no rights and aren't able to.

@hiphops - The concept of shared property is a contradiction. Two or more people cannot own the same thing. Something is owned by one person, or it is not owned at all. Laihendi

Lol. Did you know that houses, real estate and companies are often owned by more than one person?

[QUOTE="Laihendi"]How often do you hear about a mentally disabled person owning property? Or voting?PannicAtack

I was young and naive, and that was before I read Atlas Shrugged.Laihendi

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"]

[QUOTE="Laihendi"]How often do you hear about a mentally disabled person owning property? Or voting?Laihendi

[QUOTE="Laihendi"]@hiphops - The concept of shared property is a contradiction. Two or more people cannot own the same thing. Something is owned by one person, or it is not owned at all. worlock77

Lol. Did you know that houses, real estate and companies are often owned by more than one person?

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="Laihendi"]@hiphops - The concept of shared property is a contradiction. Two or more people cannot own the same thing. Something is owned by one person, or it is not owned at all. Laihendi

Lol. Did you know that houses, real estate and companies are often owned by more than one person?

You have an odd aversion to reality.

I actually happen to know a handful of things about business, so allow me to explain why you are wrong. Basically, there are four types of businesses - proprietorships, partnerships, limited liability companies, and corporations.

Thing is, anything that isn't a proprietorship has multiple owners. Partnerships, limited liability companies, and corporations in particular, have multiple owners. That's kind of the definition.

This is a question you can't answer; both are historically important. Since the 20th century, we can see why the American revolution was so important, because it created a new superpower, but, back in the 18th century, Europe was the center of the earth and France one of the dominant players, almost like the US of today. Imagine a revolution in the US tomorrow and the impact it would have on the world. That's the impact french revolution had back then, in a time where the monarchy system was prevalent. Franko_3

[QUOTE="Laihendi"][QUOTE="worlock77"]

Lol. Did you know that houses, real estate and companies are often owned by more than one person?

worlock77

You have an odd aversion to reality.

[QUOTE="Ace6301"]US probably. Breaking away from the British Empire was a pretty big deal and it laid out the foundation for various other revolutions. Also man, Lai sure has changed. [Quote="Laihendi"]all i want is a president who will give me free food, housing, and healthcare these things are basic human rights and its appalling that america will deny these things from its citizensLaihendi

@ Sun Tzu

I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.Lincoln

Lincoln was a racist and he did not care about black people. He only used slavery as an excuse to keep the southern states from seceding because he was an authoritarian.

Also please tell me which is the mark of civilization: living in a crude tent made out of sticks and animal skins, or living in a house made of wood or stone?

As for the mark of civilization I'll just say this - for the vast majority of human history we lived exclusively nomadic - as "savages". During this time period there were no wars, no genocide, we were not nearly as susceptible to disease, and we didn't have the ability to destroy all life on the planet with the push of a button. Life expectancy actually went down as a result of sedentary life and agriculture, in part because humans were getting more sick and also because you were more susceptible to finding yourself with an ice pick in your head because a nearby community had a bad harvest and needs your food to survive. 

Progress traps do exist FYI, and its incredibly ethnocentric to assume that because you have a computer with internet as well as indoor plumbing and electricity, you are therefore self-evidently superior and more civilized than someone who doesn't. Ironically it is that very idea that has caused much of the barbarism in modern history. 

[QUOTE="Laihendi"]I was young and naive, and that was before I read Atlas Shrugged.PannicAtack

1. Didn't you say that you arrived at your opinions well before you read Atlas Shrugged?

2. You have no sense of irony, do you?

[QUOTE="PannicAtack"]

[QUOTE="Laihendi"]I was young and naive, and that was before I read Atlas Shrugged.Laihendi

1. Didn't you say that you arrived at your opinions well before you read Atlas Shrugged?

2. You have no sense of irony, do you?