French Revolution vs American Revolution

[QUOTE="DarkGamer007"]

[QUOTE="Laihendi"]The American is more significant because America was the first (and so far only) country founded on a moral principal - the principal of individual rights. The founding of the United States is one of the greatest achievement in human history. The French Revolution was just a massive crime wave.LOXO7

:lol: The greatest achievement in human history? :lol: I'm sorry I cannot breathe with how ridiculiously stupid that statement was. :lol:

The United States was hardly the first nation to develop the concept of rights.

[QUOTE="LOXO7"][QUOTE="DarkGamer007"]

:lol: The greatest achievement in human history? :lol: I'm sorry I cannot breathe with how ridiculiously stupid that statement was. :lol:

worlock77

The United States was hardly the first nation to develop the concept of rights.

[QUOTE="BossPerson"]

christ on the cross, you are a joke of a human being. 

is it fine to commit genoicde of a people because they have no conception of private property?

Laihendi

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="LOXO7"] Rights are important. You have a greater accomplishment? Go on.LOXO7

The United States was hardly the first nation to develop the concept of rights.

No, it wasn't. For one example, the English had the Magna Carta, which established individual rights, more that 500 years before the American revolution.

[QUOTE="LOXO7"][QUOTE="worlock77"]

The United States was hardly the first nation to develop the concept of rights.

worlock77

No, it wasn't. For one example, the English had the Magna Carta, which established individual rights, more that 500 years before the American revolution.

The difference is the king has rights.  The subjects have "rights" entitled by the king.  In America the individual has rights and the government has privilages.  It's flipped.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="LOXO7"] True. But it was in individual rights. Being first doesn't mean the greatest to me. I can't think of a more powerful accomplishment then the idea of rights.LOXO7

No, it wasn't. For one example, the English had the Magna Carta, which established individual rights, more that 500 years before the American revolution.

The Magna Carta specifically stated, among other things, that the king's will and power were not unlimited, that he was bound by laws, and that no free man could be arbitrarily punished by the king. It was actually a major influence on the Constitution of the United States.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="LOXO7"] True. But it was in individual rights. Being first doesn't mean the greatest to me. I can't think of a more powerful accomplishment then the idea of rights.LOXO7

No, it wasn't. For one example, the English had the Magna Carta, which established individual rights, more that 500 years before the American revolution.

America is no different from England in that regard, or from anyone for that matter

And most if not all of the legal rights found in the declaration and the bill of rights were first originally formalized into law in England, which is why it was common for leaders of the American revolution to talk about how they were being deprived of their rights "as Englishmen" 

It's not as if the enlightenment thinkers of the 17th century and early 18th century had no influence on the politics in Europe prior to American independence. 

I've always wondered why people view the French Revolution as one of the defining moments in history, but they don't view the American revolution in the same way (at least not nearly as much) even though it happenned before. 

So, which revolution do you think was more significant and which one encapsulated enligtenment principles more?  

BossPerson

THe french one was more important.

[QUOTE="LOXO7"][QUOTE="worlock77"]

No, it wasn't. For one example, the English had the Magna Carta, which established individual rights, more that 500 years before the American revolution.

-Sun_Tzu-

America is no different from England in that regard, or from anyone for that matter

And most if not all of the legal rights found in the declaration and the bill of rights were first originally formalized into law in England, which is why it was common for leaders of the American revolution to talk about how they were being deprived of their rights "as Englishmen" 

It's not as if the enlightenment thinkers of the 17th century and early 18th century had no influence on the politics in Europe prior to American independence. 

Legal rights. What is this? Law gives you rights? These so called rights are privileges. Who created the law? Men. Then men can take these rights away. 

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="LOXO7"] Really? And were these individual rights as equal as the king's rights? I say they are glorified rights that are merely called rights, but are really privileges granted by the king.LOXO7

America is no different from England in that regard, or from anyone for that matter

And most if not all of the legal rights found in the declaration and the bill of rights were first originally formalized into law in England, which is why it was common for leaders of the American revolution to talk about how they were being deprived of their rights "as Englishmen" 

It's not as if the enlightenment thinkers of the 17th century and early 18th century had no influence on the politics in Europe prior to American independence. 

Legal rights. What is this? Law gives you rights? These so called rights are privileges. Who created the law? Men. Then men can take these rights away. 

Any talk of natural or inalienable rights is just a fancy way of saying "I think I/we should be legally entitled to X." 

[QUOTE="LOXO7"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] All "rights" are in actuality privileges

America is no different from England in that regard, or from anyone for that matter

And most if not all of the legal rights found in the declaration and the bill of rights were first originally formalized into law in England, which is why it was common for leaders of the American revolution to talk about how they were being deprived of their rights "as Englishmen" 

It's not as if the enlightenment thinkers of the 17th century and early 18th century had no influence on the politics in Europe prior to American independence. 

-Sun_Tzu-

Legal rights. What is this? Law gives you rights? These so called rights are privileges. Who created the law? Men. Then men can take these rights away. 

Any talk of natural or inalienable rights is just a fancy way of saying "I think I/we should be legally entitled to X." 

These two events cannot really be divorced from each other. The American Revolution did a lot more good for the world than the French one, that's for sure.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="LOXO7"] When I place quotes around a word I mean the exact opposite of what that word is. Subjects have "rights" meaning they do not have rights. Is this what you mean when you say, "All 'rights' are in actuality privileges?"

Legal rights. What is this? Law gives you rights? These so called rights are privileges. Who created the law? Men. Then men can take these rights away. 

LOXO7

Any talk of natural or inalienable rights is just a fancy way of saying "I think I/we should be legally entitled to X." 

[QUOTE="LOXO7"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] The only rights people have are those that are institutionalized through law. And yes, that means that these rights can also be abolished through law. 

Any talk of natural or inalienable rights is just a fancy way of saying "I think I/we should be legally entitled to X." 

-Sun_Tzu-

That is your belief. I had no part in my creation and yet here I am, existing. Some sort of authority created my organs. But my right to exist is only bound by words of men? No. That authority is there. And I want to copy it. I have rights. No one can command me to do or allow me to own anything.LOXO7

What an offal thought.

The French revolution probably, the American revolution was important as well, but the main differance with the French revolution was that it occured in a European country. It scared all the monarchies of Europe to hell that they could be next and it really began the process of "de-monarchisation" that ended around WW1 or WW2. Basically the modern era began with the French revolution.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="LOXO7"] Rights are more like, I know I can do/own it.LOXO7

[QUOTE="LOXO7"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] If we're talking about legal rights, sure. But if not all of your conceived "inalienable" rights aren codified into law then you can't honestly say "I know I can do/own X"(except in a very literal sense where it is true that you can do X but there will also most likely be legal repercussions for doing so). An honest interpretation of what inalienable rights are is that they are merely freedoms that someone thinks people should be entitled to. Talk of inalienable rights is nothing more than a rhetorical ploy - an appeal to an authority that isn't there. It is not a description of reality. Nature doesn't endow anyone with any rights. Rights are a social construct made by men, for men. -Sun_Tzu-

Rights derive from force.

Legal rights derive from the enforcement of those rights by army/police.

If force says "your rights are null and void" then good luck arguing with a sword or a gun.

Democratic principles arose from the world becoming too difficult to be governed by force alone.

It was no longer enough to just beat the crap out of people and order them to shut their pie hole.

Instead you can make them believe they are free, so there is nobody to rebel against.

Meanwhile you govern them via psychological/social means and economically.

Alot of the "liberal, democratic" stuff is actually smoke and mirrors.

Coercion by another means.

Taxes are every bit as effective as slavery, why bother forcing someone to work when you can monetize his labor and confiscate his earnings.

Taxes are every bit as effective as slavery, why bother forcing someone to work when you can monetize his labor and confiscate his earnings.LazySloth718

Slaves get nothing for their labor. You, on the other hand, actually get a good deal of things in return for the taxes you pay.

[QUOTE="LazySloth718"]Taxes are every bit as effective as slavery, why bother forcing someone to work when you can monetize his labor and confiscate his earnings.worlock77

Slaves get nothing for their labor. You, on the other hand, actually get a good deal of things in return for the taxes you pay.

Slaves get food and shelter.

Taxpayers get foreclosure, homelessness and "look at how much you get" song and dance.

[QUOTE="LOXO7"][QUOTE="worlock77"]

No, it wasn't. For one example, the English had the Magna Carta, which established individual rights, more that 500 years before the American revolution.

worlock77

The Magna Carta specifically stated, among other things, that the king's will and power were not unlimited, that he was bound by laws, and that no free man could be arbitrarily punished by the king. It was actually a major influence on the Constitution of the United States.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="LazySloth718"]Taxes are every bit as effective as slavery, why bother forcing someone to work when you can monetize his labor and confiscate his earnings.LazySloth718

Slaves get nothing for their labor. You, on the other hand, actually get a good deal of things in return for the taxes you pay.

Slaves get food and shelter.

Taxpayers get foreclosure, homelessness and "look at how much you get" song and dance.

 - Bare minimum food and poor shelter? Oh well, that's totally a fair compensation for being held in slavery.

 - Police and fire protection. Military protection. An education provided to you regardless of your social or financial standing. An excellent road network. Quality sewage systems. Assurance that you won't starve or be forced onti the streets when you're too old to work. These are but a few things your taxes provide you with. But I guess you don't value any of those things.

[QUOTE="GOGOGOGURT"]

[QUOTE="LOXO7"]

The annihilation of the Indians is a tragedy.  It could of been handled better.  I hope this doesn't repeat to any Americans in the future.

LOXO7

It was a tragedy.  But it was inevitable.  Worst things have happened before, so save your tears.

The holocaust, the crusades, vietnam, people being slaughtered in Africa and Middle east... I don't friggin know dude take your pick.

[QUOTE="Laihendi"]The American is more significant because America was the first (and so far only) country founded on a moral principal - the principal of individual rights. The founding of the United States is one of the greatest achievement in human history. The French Revolution was just a massive crime wave.DarkGamer007

:lol: The greatest achievement in human history? :lol: I'm sorry I cannot breathe with how ridiculiously stupid that statement was. :lol:

Actually America is a grand achievment.  People don't realize how unique the history of this country is.  It's nothing short of a miracle.

American Revolution made more of a rememberance in history

Created country without a monarchKC_Hokie

[QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]Created country without a monarchMrPraline

[QUOTE="MrPraline"][QUOTE="KC_Hokie"]Created country without a monarchKC_Hokie

[QUOTE="BossPerson"]

Lai, what is your opinion on 'The People' 

who are these collectivist f*cks? 

Laihendi

I agree with this.

French wanted Equality in their revolution. Americans wanted Liberty in theirs. I think Americans was more notable.Protoford

And here I thought equality was one of the benchmarks America prided itself on.

[QUOTE="DarkGamer007"]

[QUOTE="Laihendi"]The American is more significant because America was the first (and so far only) country founded on a moral principal - the principal of individual rights. The founding of the United States is one of the greatest achievement in human history. The French Revolution was just a massive crime wave.GOGOGOGURT

:lol: The greatest achievement in human history? :lol: I'm sorry I cannot breathe with how ridiculiously stupid that statement was. :lol:

Actually America is a grand achievment.  People don't realize how unique the history of this country is.  It's nothing short of a miracle.

Well the French revolution was a complete failure so......

[QUOTE="Protoford"]French wanted Equality in their revolution. Americans wanted Liberty in theirs. I think Americans was more notable.worlock77

And here I thought equality was one of the benchmarks America prided itself on.

Change back your avatarthemajormayor