God - A creation of human insecurity?

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

A God that will give you reward of eternal life after death if you hold faith... Guess it never crossed peoples minds that go doesn't care about us or doesn't even realize we exist.. We put entirely too much stock in some how being important.. When in the grand scheme of things, we are not.. We are less then insigificant.. There is no correct term in any language to properly explain how insiginificant and small we are.. Yet we some how think we are important enough for god to take notice..

We don't take notice or really care of a ant hill right outside our home.. Yet we expect god to take notice us when we are far smaller then that.

sSubZerOo

We notice ants ont he ground, but do we care about them? No.. And we are far smaller then that.. It seems to be profane arrogance to even suggest god cares about us in the least, we can't even master the planet we live on.. Let alone our solar system.. Which is a drop of water in a vaste lake.

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]A God that will give you reward of eternal life after death if you hold faith... Guess it never crossed peoples minds that go doesn't care about us or doesn't even realize we exist.. We put entirely too much stock in some how being important.. When in the grand scheme of things, we are not.. We are less then insigificant.. There is no correct term in any language to properly explain how insiginificant and small we are.. Yet we some how think we are important enough for god to take notice..

We don't take notice or really care of a ant hill right outside our home.. Yet we expect god to take notice us when we are far smaller then that.sSubZerOo

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="jalexbrown"] We don't have the capabilities of G-d, though. Because G-d is everywhere, He can notice everythingHexagon_777

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"] We don't have the capabilities of G-d, though. Because G-d is everywhere, He can notice everythingjalexbrown

We notice ants ont he ground, but do we care about them? No.. And we are far smaller then that.. It seems to be profane arrogance to even suggest god cares about us in the least, we can't even master the planet we live on.. Let alone our solar system.. Which is a drop of water in a vaste lake.

Your looking on one planet amongst a vast sea of matter.. OUr one planet is not the universe, nor are we the center of the universe.. Put in perspective, our galaxy is some 100 to 200 billion stars large.. It goes across 100k lightyears.. OUr galaxy is quite average, and its on collosion course witha much large galaxy.. The Andromeda galaxy.. Which is some 200 to 400 billion stars.. This has been occuring for trillions of years.. And will do so trillions of years after.. By that itme we will cease to exist.. Furthermore the Hubble has estimated that there are some 125 BILLION galaxies in the universe.. Depends on what you clarify as special.. There have been things on this planet that have lived far longer then people, and will most likely live through natural diseasters that will wipe us out.. Sure we have written language and the like.. But outside of our own importance, how can we some how declare that we are superior? When we have no clue of what is beyond our planet for the most part.. Not to mention we can not even master our planet to begin with..

[QUOTE="Hexagon_777"]

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]We notice ants ont he ground, but do we care about them? No.. And we are far smaller then that.. It seems to be profane arrogance to even suggest god cares about us in the least, we can't even master the planet we live on.. Let alone our solar system.. Which is a drop of water in a vaste lake.jalexbrown

Not at all.. I have accepted that god is every where for arguments sake.. But what makes us deserving of his/her/it's attention? Absolutely nothing.. The universe, the solar system, and this planet will go on long after we die out.

[QUOTE="Hexagon_777"]

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]We notice ants ont he ground, but do we care about them? No.. And we are far smaller then that.. It seems to be profane arrogance to even suggest god cares about us in the least, we can't even master the planet we live on.. Let alone our solar system.. Which is a drop of water in a vaste lake.jalexbrown

It connects two situations schematically, to portray their analogical similarities.

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

We notice ants ont he ground, but do we care about them? No.. And we are far smaller then that.. It seems to be profane arrogance to even suggest god cares about us in the least, we can't even master the planet we live on.. Let alone our solar system.. Which is a drop of water in a vaste lake.

sSubZerOo

Your looking on one planet amongst a vast sea of matter.. OUr one planet is not the universe, nor are we the center of the universe.. Put in perspective, our galaxy is some 100 to 200 billion stars large.. It goes across 100k lightyears.. OUr galaxy is quite average, and its on collosion course witha much large galaxy.. The Andromeda galaxy.. Which is some 200 to 400 billion stars.. This has been occuring for trillions of years.. And will do so trillions of years after.. By that itme we will cease to exist.. Furthermore the Hubble has estimated that there are some 125 BILLION galaxies in the universe.. Depends on what you clarify as special.. There have been things on this planet that have lived far longer then people, and will most likely live through natural diseasters that will wipe us out.. Sure we have written language and the like.. But outside of our own importance, how can we some how declare that we are superior? When we have no clue of what is beyond our planet for the most part.. Not to mention we can not even master our planet to begin with..

We are special for only one real reason. With us, the Universe has finally come to a point of evolution where matter and energy has coalesced into free thinking and self aware life. We all used to be stardust, literally, and now the molecules that make us up have formed sentience (which I actually believe is inherent in nature and not just the effect of randomly assorted molecules and chemical interactions). Everything is God, energy, it's all the same the stuff when you break everything down. For billions of years, the Universe has expanded and matter has coalesced into endlessly different forms so the fact that we are in the early stages of making another leap of consciousness evolution, that's what makes us special. Still, I don't agree with people believing the Universe is all about us, and for us, and that humans are the crowning achievement of God's creation. If THAT were true, then I'd be seriously unimpressed.

[QUOTE="Hexagon_777"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]We notice ants ont he ground, but do we care about them? No.. And we are far smaller then that.. It seems to be profane arrogance to even suggest god cares about us in the least, we can't even master the planet we live on.. Let alone our solar system.. Which is a drop of water in a vaste lake.jalexbrown

We are special for only one real reason. With us, the Universe has finally come to a point of evolution where matter and energy has coalesced into free thinking and self aware life. We all used to be stardust, literally, and now the molecules that make us up have formed sentience (which I actually believe is inherent in nature and not just the effect of randomly assorted molecules and chemical interactions). Everything is God, energy, it's all the same the stuff when you break everything down. For billions of years, the Universe has expanded and matter has coalesced into endlessly different forms so the fact that we are in the early stages of making another leap of consciousness evolution, that's what makes us special. Still, I don't agree with people believing the Universe is all about us, and for us, and that humans are the crowning achievement of God's creation. If THAT were true, then I'd be seriously unimpressed.MystikFollower

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"][QUOTE="Hexagon_777"]That ant analogy is pretty damn good. I never thought of it that way.Hexagon_777

Except that God is omnipotent, and (well I at least believe this) the consciousness that holds the entire Universe together and IS the Universe, vibrating in endlessly different variations and creating all different types of matter. God therefore, knows the dealings of the smallest ant in the most remote ant hill, while also knowing the tiny particle whizzing through a star billions of lightyears from here. That's why the analogy doesn't work. We look at the ants and see tiny insignificant creatures way down there. I can't imagine how God views us, but since he is everywhere and is everything, I don't think it matters how small we are. God's not some all seeing eye looking down from a high mountain top seeing us as little specks. Sure he's up there, but he's down here with us as well.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"] We can't master the planet we live on, but we're a helluva lot closer than anything else to doing so. If you look at the other species in the world and then look at humans, I don't know why it's so hard to believe we're special.MystikFollower

Your looking on one planet amongst a vast sea of matter.. OUr one planet is not the universe, nor are we the center of the universe.. Put in perspective, our galaxy is some 100 to 200 billion stars large.. It goes across 100k lightyears.. OUr galaxy is quite average, and its on collosion course witha much large galaxy.. The Andromeda galaxy.. Which is some 200 to 400 billion stars.. This has been occuring for trillions of years.. And will do so trillions of years after.. By that itme we will cease to exist.. Furthermore the Hubble has estimated that there are some 125 BILLION galaxies in the universe.. Depends on what you clarify as special.. There have been things on this planet that have lived far longer then people, and will most likely live through natural diseasters that will wipe us out.. Sure we have written language and the like.. But outside of our own importance, how can we some how declare that we are superior? When we have no clue of what is beyond our planet for the most part.. Not to mention we can not even master our planet to begin with..

We are special for only one real reason. With us, the Universe has finally come to a point of evolution where matter and energy has coalesced into free thinking and self aware life. We all used to be stardust, literally, and now the molecules that make us up have formed sentience (which I actually believe is inherent in nature and not just the effect of randomly assorted molecules and chemical interactions). Everything is God, energy, it's all the same the stuff when you break everything down. For billions of years, the Universe has expanded and matter has coalesced into endlessly different forms so the fact that we are in the early stages of making another leap of consciousness evolution, that's what makes us special. Still, I don't agree with people believing the Universe is all about us, and for us, and that humans are the crowning achievement of God's creation. If THAT were true, then I'd be seriously unimpressed.

...............Wrong, this is arrogance that to suggest that we are the first free thinking spieces in this universe.. And we are NOT! Cro-Magnum men and Nienderthuls lived before homosapians.. Though human-like, they predated our spieces and had similar faculties of free thought.. To some how suggest that we are unique no matter the guidelines that are put in place, is arrogance.

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"][QUOTE="Hexagon_777"]That ant analogy is pretty damn good. I never thought of it that way.

sSubZerOo

Not at all.. I have accepted that god is every where for arguments sake.. But what makes us deserving of his/her/it's attention? Absolutely nothing.. The universe, the solar system, and this planet will go on long after we die out.

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

Your looking on one planet amongst a vast sea of matter.. OUr one planet is not the universe, nor are we the center of the universe.. Put in perspective, our galaxy is some 100 to 200 billion stars large.. It goes across 100k lightyears.. OUr galaxy is quite average, and its on collosion course witha much large galaxy.. The Andromeda galaxy.. Which is some 200 to 400 billion stars.. This has been occuring for trillions of years.. And will do so trillions of years after.. By that itme we will cease to exist.. Furthermore the Hubble has estimated that there are some 125 BILLION galaxies in the universe.. Depends on what you clarify as special.. There have been things on this planet that have lived far longer then people, and will most likely live through natural diseasters that will wipe us out.. Sure we have written language and the like.. But outside of our own importance, how can we some how declare that we are superior? When we have no clue of what is beyond our planet for the most part.. Not to mention we can not even master our planet to begin with..

sSubZerOo

We are special for only one real reason. With us, the Universe has finally come to a point of evolution where matter and energy has coalesced into free thinking and self aware life. We all used to be stardust, literally, and now the molecules that make us up have formed sentience (which I actually believe is inherent in nature and not just the effect of randomly assorted molecules and chemical interactions). Everything is God, energy, it's all the same the stuff when you break everything down. For billions of years, the Universe has expanded and matter has coalesced into endlessly different forms so the fact that we are in the early stages of making another leap of consciousness evolution, that's what makes us special. Still, I don't agree with people believing the Universe is all about us, and for us, and that humans are the crowning achievement of God's creation. If THAT were true, then I'd be seriously unimpressed.

...............Wrong, this is arrogance that to suggest that we are the first free thinking spieces in this universe.. And we are NOT! Cro-Magnum men and Nienderthuls lived before homosapians.. Though human-like, they predated our spieces and had similar faculties of free thought.. To some how suggest that we are unique no matter the guidelines that are put in place, is arrogance.

Just because we are special and unique does not mean at all that there haven't been lifeforms in the past that have achieved the same thing. I also don't mean to suggest we are the only planet to achieve it as well. I'm sure there are thousands if not millions of other societies out there that have free thinking and self aware life on it, probably some of which is much more consciously evolved than us.

[QUOTE="Hexagon_777"]

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"] All I see it doing is trying to equate the abilities of G-d with the abilities of humans - a foolish act indeed.MystikFollower

Except that God is omnipotent, and (well I at least believe this) the consciousness that holds the entire Universe together and IS the Universe, vibrating in endlessly different variations and creating all different types of matter. God therefore, knows the dealings of the smallest ant in the most remote ant hill, while also knowing the tiny particle whizzing through a star billions of lightyears from here. That's why the analogy doesn't work. We look at the ants and see tiny insignificant creatures way down there. I can't imagine how God views us, but since he is everywhere and is everything, I don't think it matters how small we are. God's not some all seeing eye looking down from a high mountain top seeing us as little specks. Sure he's up there, but he's down here with us as well.

You seem not to understand, we can observe and carefor ants all we want.. The point being? They are meaningless and not worth our notice inless they become a pest.. Its not about whether god notices us in the end, its about god even caring about us.. For all we know we are failures in god's mind not worth the ligth of day to look upon... This would be like a small town athlete thinking he is speical and hot stuff, only to go out into the big leagues and find out he is average at best and not special when it comes to his sport..

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

We are special for only one real reason. With us, the Universe has finally come to a point of evolution where matter and energy has coalesced into free thinking and self aware life. We all used to be stardust, literally, and now the molecules that make us up have formed sentience (which I actually believe is inherent in nature and not just the effect of randomly assorted molecules and chemical interactions). Everything is God, energy, it's all the same the stuff when you break everything down. For billions of years, the Universe has expanded and matter has coalesced into endlessly different forms so the fact that we are in the early stages of making another leap of consciousness evolution, that's what makes us special. Still, I don't agree with people believing the Universe is all about us, and for us, and that humans are the crowning achievement of God's creation. If THAT were true, then I'd be seriously unimpressed.

MystikFollower

...............Wrong, this is arrogance that to suggest that we are the first free thinking spieces in this universe.. And we are NOT! Cro-Magnum men and Nienderthuls lived before homosapians.. Though human-like, they predated our spieces and had similar faculties of free thought.. To some how suggest that we are unique no matter the guidelines that are put in place, is arrogance.

Just because we are special and unique does not mean at all that there haven't been lifeforms in the past that have achieved the same thing. I also don't mean to suggest we are the only planet to achieve it as well. I'm sure there are thousands if not millions of other societies out there that have free thinking and self aware life on it, probably some of which is much more consciously evolved than us.

You have to prove that we are some how special.. And if we are special why would god care for us what so ever? People seem to be mighty dead set on knowing what god thinks.. Especially when we live in sucha hostile environment where one day mankind will cease to exist.

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

[QUOTE="Hexagon_777"]The abilities of humans in comparison to ants can easily be compared to the abilities of God in comparison to the abilities of humans in my opinion. Seems fine to me.

sSubZerOo

Except that God is omnipotent, and (well I at least believe this) the consciousness that holds the entire Universe together and IS the Universe, vibrating in endlessly different variations and creating all different types of matter. God therefore, knows the dealings of the smallest ant in the most remote ant hill, while also knowing the tiny particle whizzing through a star billions of lightyears from here. That's why the analogy doesn't work. We look at the ants and see tiny insignificant creatures way down there. I can't imagine how God views us, but since he is everywhere and is everything, I don't think it matters how small we are. God's not some all seeing eye looking down from a high mountain top seeing us as little specks. Sure he's up there, but he's down here with us as well.

You seem not to understand, we can observe and carefor ants all we want.. The point being? They are meaningless and not worth our notice inless they become a pest.. Its not about whether god notices us in the end, its about god even caring about us.. For all we know we are failures in god's mind not worth the ligth of day to look upon... This would be like a small town athlete thinking he is speical and hot stuff, only to go out into the big leagues and find out he is average at best and not special when it comes to his sport..

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

...............Wrong, this is arrogance that to suggest that we are the first free thinking spieces in this universe.. And we are NOT! Cro-Magnum men and Nienderthuls lived before homosapians.. Though human-like, they predated our spieces and had similar faculties of free thought.. To some how suggest that we are unique no matter the guidelines that are put in place, is arrogance.

sSubZerOo

Just because we are special and unique does not mean at all that there haven't been lifeforms in the past that have achieved the same thing. I also don't mean to suggest we are the only planet to achieve it as well. I'm sure there are thousands if not millions of other societies out there that have free thinking and self aware life on it, probably some of which is much more consciously evolved than us.

You have to prove that we are some how special.. And if we are special why would god care for us what so ever? People seem to be mighty dead set on knowing what god thinks.. Especially when we live in sucha hostile environment where one day mankind will cease to exist.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

Except that God is omnipotent, and (well I at least believe this) the consciousness that holds the entire Universe together and IS the Universe, vibrating in endlessly different variations and creating all different types of matter. God therefore, knows the dealings of the smallest ant in the most remote ant hill, while also knowing the tiny particle whizzing through a star billions of lightyears from here. That's why the analogy doesn't work. We look at the ants and see tiny insignificant creatures way down there. I can't imagine how God views us, but since he is everywhere and is everything, I don't think it matters how small we are. God's not some all seeing eye looking down from a high mountain top seeing us as little specks. Sure he's up there, but he's down here with us as well.

jalexbrown

You seem not to understand, we can observe and carefor ants all we want.. The point being? They are meaningless and not worth our notice inless they become a pest.. Its not about whether god notices us in the end, its about god even caring about us.. For all we know we are failures in god's mind not worth the ligth of day to look upon... This would be like a small town athlete thinking he is speical and hot stuff, only to go out into the big leagues and find out he is average at best and not special when it comes to his sport..

A) Why would god waste his/her/it's time? Do you go out of your way to wipe out ant hills?

B) How in the heck do you know that we are being nurtured? Tell that to the billion+ that are starving in the world, or the 3 billion that are in extreme poverty.. Our human bodies are wracked with disease.. We make war on our selves where its mostly the innocent who pay the price.. First you have to prove that we are even being nurtured to begin with.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

Just because we are special and unique does not mean at all that there haven't been lifeforms in the past that have achieved the same thing. I also don't mean to suggest we are the only planet to achieve it as well. I'm sure there are thousands if not millions of other societies out there that have free thinking and self aware life on it, probably some of which is much more consciously evolved than us.

jalexbrown

You have to prove that we are some how special.. And if we are special why would god care for us what so ever? People seem to be mighty dead set on knowing what god thinks.. Especially when we live in sucha hostile environment where one day mankind will cease to exist.

Ah but we have documents outside of his writigns proving his existence.. We have none such thing of gods.. Furthermore Nietzche was a simple man that was never claimed to do wild and miraculous things. In the end I do not want to take this argument further.. Because its going to turn into a circular argument with nothing solved.. I was merely pointing out that the claim that we are some how special as being highly suspect.

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

You seem not to understand, we can observe and carefor ants all we want.. The point being? They are meaningless and not worth our notice inless they become a pest.. Its not about whether god notices us in the end, its about god even caring about us.. For all we know we are failures in god's mind not worth the ligth of day to look upon... This would be like a small town athlete thinking he is speical and hot stuff, only to go out into the big leagues and find out he is average at best and not special when it comes to his sport..

sSubZerOo

A) Why would god waste his/her/it's time? Do you go out of your way to wipe out ant hills?

B) How in the heck do you know that we are being nurtured? Tell that to the billion+ that are starving in the world, or the 3 billion that are in extreme poverty.. Our human bodies are wracked with disease.. We make war on our selves where its mostly the innocent who pay the price.. First you have to prove that we are even being nurtured to begin with.

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

...............Wrong, this is arrogance that to suggest that we are the first free thinking spieces in this universe.. And we are NOT! Cro-Magnum men and Nienderthuls lived before homosapians.. Though human-like, they predated our spieces and had similar faculties of free thought.. To some how suggest that we are unique no matter the guidelines that are put in place, is arrogance.

Just because we are special and unique does not mean at all that there haven't been lifeforms in the past that have achieved the same thing. I also don't mean to suggest we are the only planet to achieve it as well. I'm sure there are thousands if not millions of other societies out there that have free thinking and self aware life on it, probably some of which is much more consciously evolved than us.

You have to prove that we are some how special.. And if we are special why would god care for us what so ever? People seem to be mighty dead set on knowing what god thinks.. Especially when we live in sucha hostile environment where one day mankind will cease to exist.

Obviously that is something that can't be PROVEN, and to do so would just be self centered and egotistical on my part. It's what I believe, because the evidence of all my personal experience points to that. But I wont use that as an argument since personal experience is subjective and can't be consideredempirical proof for anything.

Irregardless of how little you think God would care, that doesn't change the fact that created this Universe and gave you a life in it. If it's all just some big game for God then just have fun with it and don't take life seriously. I don't take life nearly as seriously anymore and it's such a great stress reliever.

Irregardless of how little you think God would care, that doesn't change the fact that created this Universe and gave you a life in it. If it's all just some big game for God then just have fun with it and don't take life seriously. I don't take life nearly as seriously anymore and it's such a great stress reliever.MystikFollower

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"] If we were failures in the eyes of G-d, it would be easier for Him to smite us than to nurture us. :|jalexbrown

A) Why would god waste his/her/it's time? Do you go out of your way to wipe out ant hills?

B) How in the heck do you know that we are being nurtured? Tell that to the billion+ that are starving in the world, or the 3 billion that are in extreme poverty.. Our human bodies are wracked with disease.. We make war on our selves where its mostly the innocent who pay the price.. First you have to prove that we are even being nurtured to begin with.

We are far from self sufficient and self reliant.. If we have environmental changes from a volcanic eruption or other such natural diseaster.. We can die by the hundreds of millions..

I see us, from G-d's perspective, as infants that need to be tended to if we're to grow.

Except we don't purposely get our infants sick with dibilitating diseases.. Or make half of them born on the planet in extreme poverty and starvation..

And the debate as to why G-d would do horrible things is about as old as organized religion itself. None of us claim to know...

Its not about why god would do horrible things.. Its about why do you think the human race important enough for god to care one way or the other..

or at least I don't claim to know; the only insight I believe I have into the mind or motives of G-d is what

How can you make such claims from one book, when you, I, or the rest of mankind has hardly the fuzziest idea of the vast majority of gods supposed works.. This would be like a personc laiming they know what the United States is all about by living in a shelted house hold in the Middle of no where.. Should we really take this persons opinion as one of experience and knowledge? I think not.

I read in the Tanakh. I don't speculate on motives that I don't believe I could comprehend anyways.

Yaweh - Allah(todays biggests gods)- Apollo etcare like Santa Claus for adults

They're always know if you're naughty or nice and either reward you when you do well or forget about you when you dont do well.

,,,

In any event, this "Abrahamic" version of 'god' is perhaps just a way for man tobe able to explain the existenceof divine law& entity that makes up life etc., in a simpler way by saying it's some cat with white hair and apimp goateethat knows & sees all.

Nope. God wasn't created by Humans.

Yaweh - Allah(todays biggests gods)- Apollo etcare like Santa Claus for adults

They're always know if you're naughty or nice and either reward you when you do well or forget about you when you dont do well.

,,,

In any event, this "Abrahamic" version of 'god' is perhaps just a way for man tobe able to explain the existenceof divine law& entity that makes up life etc., in a simpler way by saying it's some cat with white hair and apimp goateethat knows & sees all.

_R34LiTY_

[QUOTE="_R34LiTY_"]

Yaweh - Allah(todays biggests gods)- Apollo etcare like Santa Claus for adults

They're always know if you're naughty or nice and either reward you when you do well or forget about you when you dont do well.

,,,

In any event, this "Abrahamic" version of 'god' is perhaps just a way for man tobe able to explain the existenceof divine law& entity that makes up life etc., in a simpler way by saying it's some cat with white hair and apimp goateethat knows & sees all.

jalexbrown

tell that to the people that are left after taking 144,000 chosen ppl to go up in heaven singing Gods new song and praying the new prayeretc while the rest areforgotten about as theywallow in anguishin what will be hellon earth

Like you, I dont see why such a character would as well. but that's more or less right from the book itself. No?

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"] But if I believe I know something...then I'm saying exactly what it sounds like: I believe I know; that means my belief - which may not be the same as yours - is that I know. Someone saying they believe they know something isn't claiming any sort of universal truth; it's saying that within their own belief system, this is the only logical conclusion that they can draw - thus, they know. I understand this - that's why you won't see me busting people's balls if they say they know there's no G-d.Vandalvideo

I mean they are not the same thing surely, but could they be a continuous spectrum? Belief and knowledge. Not necessarily speaking about factual knowledge. It could be delusional knowledge as well.

Or are the two differentiated by the distinction of factual and delusional/not based on facts?

Is the impression or delusion of knowledge something different from factual knowledge when we view them as a state of mind?

PS: Not advocating jalxbrown's point btw. Just using your post to express what I posted.

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"][QUOTE="_R34LiTY_"]

Yaweh - Allah(todays biggests gods)- Apollo etcare like Santa Claus for adults

They're always know if you're naughty or nice and either reward you when you do well or forget about you when you dont do well.

,,,

In any event, this "Abrahamic" version of 'god' is perhaps just a way for man tobe able to explain the existenceof divine law& entity that makes up life etc., in a simpler way by saying it's some cat with white hair and apimp goateethat knows & sees all.

_R34LiTY_

tell that to the people that are left after taking 144,000 chosen ppl to go up in heaven singing Gods new song and praying the new prayeretc while the rest areforgotten about as theywallow in anguishin what will be hellon earth

Like you, I dont see why such a character would as well. but that's more or less right from the book itself. No?

Is there a distinct line between the two though?I mean they are not the same thing surely, but could they be a continuous spectrum? Belief and knowledge. Not necessarily speaking about factual knowledge. It could be delusional knowledge as well.Or are the two differentiated by the distinction of factual and delusional/not based on facts?Is the impression or delusion of knowledge something different from factual knowledge when we view them as a state of mind?PS: Not advocating jalxbrown's point btw. Just using your post to express what I posted.Teenaged

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]Is there a distinct line between the two though?I mean they are not the same thing surely, but could they be a continuous spectrum? Belief and knowledge. Not necessarily speaking about factual knowledge. It could be delusional knowledge as well.Or are the two differentiated by the distinction of factual and delusional/not based on facts?Is the impression or delusion of knowledge something different from factual knowledge when we view them as a state of mind?PS: Not advocating jalxbrown's point btw. Just using your post to express what I posted.Vandalvideo

I think to place them on a spectrum does a disservice to the type of epistemology that the two value judgments are based off of. Belief is largely based on some kind of faith. It is a statement of firm conviction. I believe that in the next ten minutes my metal chair will not spontaneously turn to a pool of metal sludge. Knowledge, on the other hand, is a firm statement about something based on empirical evidence. I know that, according to Quantum Indeterminacy, this chair could; at any moment in time, spontaneously turn into a pool of metal sludge and I could fall flat on my behind. I don't see any type of spectrum involved in this...rather complex analogy. There is belief and knowledge involved in the act of my sitting down in this chair. I believe firmly and have faith in my chair not being amorphous, and I know that the chair in all likelyhood will not become amorphous due to extreme probabilities in quantum indeterminacy.

Such simple examples dont do justice to what I am trying to say though.

Of course there are certain issues where belief and knowledge cannot overlapse or turn into one another but there are issues where they can.

Are there not people with religious or anti-religious beliefs whose convictions are so hard set in stone that they might experience them as knowledge? Perhaps they might be people whose conviction that God exists (or doesnt exist) is so "obvious" and undebatable to them, that is perceived as knowledge rather than belief.

And here comes the question I asked:

Is the impression or delusion of knowledge something different from factual knowledge when we view them as states of mind?

Or are we to not call anything knowledge, from the minute we are aware of the inexistence of proof for something even though we dont regard that as something important in the slightest? I mean does that inexistence of evidence immediately affects that strong conviction that is perceived as knowledge to a person and thus rendering something different than knwoledge even though very close to it as an impression.

And I emphasise that I am referring to belief and knowledge as states of mind of a person, not as we can judge them as outsiders.

Such simple examples dont do justice to what I am trying to say though.Of course there are certain issues where belief and knowledge cannot overlapse or turn into one another but there are issues where they can Are there not people with religious or anti-religious beliefs whose convictions are so hard set in stone that they might experience them as knowledge? Perhaps they might be people whose conviction that God exists (or doesnt exist) is so "obvious" and undebatable to them, that is perceived as knowledge rather than belief.And here comes the question I asked: Is the impression or delusion of knowledge something different from factual knowledge when we view them as states of mind?Or are we to not call anything knowledge, from the minute we are aware of the inexistence of proof for something even though we dont regard that as something important in the slightest? I mean does that inexistence of evidence immediately affects that strong conviction that is perceived as knowledge to a person and thus rendering something different than knwoledge even though very close to it as an impression. And I emphasise that I am referring to belief and knowledge as states of mind of a person, not as we can judge them as outsiders.Teenaged

[QUOTE="_R34LiTY_"]

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"] I don't believe that G-d forgets about anyone. I don't see why an omnipotent being should have to forget anything.jalexbrown

tell that to the people that are left after taking 144,000 chosen ppl to go up in heaven singing Gods new song and praying the new prayeretc while the rest areforgotten about as theywallow in anguishin what will be hellon earth

Like you, I dont see why such a character would as well. but that's more or less right from the book itself. No?

at the end of the Christian Bible, when Jesus hits 'Continue' and returns to earth, there are supposed to be seven seals & letters that have to be opened and read, and once they are all read, the Lamb will be chillin on top of Mountain Zion with 144,000 chosen peeps which will be rolling in Bentleys up in Heaven jamming to the new song. And these 144,00 are supposedly only to come fromt he twelve tribes of Israel and those are the one that go to heaven while the rest of us burn

If God is just a creation of human insecurity, then God is genetic because every culture developed a belief in God, so all humans are programed for such a belief. And then why would evolution decide to give us such a belief?Acemaster27

Yeah. People don't exactly like the unknown, which is what fueled the European empires and today's Space exploration. Conquer the unknown. I agree with you in thinking that religion is just a way with dealing what is impossible to know. Come up with the next best thing in believing it instead of knowing for sure. xTheExploited

From the beginning, there was science. And for everything unexplainable at that given period of time, "God" was created.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]Such simple examples dont do justice to what I am trying to say though.Of course there are certain issues where belief and knowledge cannot overlapse or turn into one another but there are issues where they can Are there not people with religious or anti-religious beliefs whose convictions are so hard set in stone that they might experience them as knowledge? Perhaps they might be people whose conviction that God exists (or doesnt exist) is so "obvious" and undebatable to them, that is perceived as knowledge rather than belief.And here comes the question I asked: Is the impression or delusion of knowledge something different from factual knowledge when we view them as states of mind?Or are we to not call anything knowledge, from the minute we are aware of the inexistence of proof for something even though we dont regard that as something important in the slightest? I mean does that inexistence of evidence immediately affects that strong conviction that is perceived as knowledge to a person and thus rendering something different than knwoledge even though very close to it as an impression. And I emphasise that I am referring to belief and knowledge as states of mind of a person, not as we can judge them as outsiders.Vandalvideo

It doesn't matter how they experience them. The parameters for knowledge and belief are such to the extent where if you have knowledge, belief is irrelevant, and belief is insufficient to establish knowledge. Firm conviction is not sufficient to establish true epistemic knowledge. I don't care how firmly you believe that God came down and handed us a Bible. Doesn't make it true and doesn't mean you know it to be true. Knowledge is more of an objective statement of fact than belief, and the state of mind of a person is entirely irrelevant to the establishment of such knowledge.

But I didnt say it does matter in an epistimological level. What I said doesnt have to affect that. I obviously limited my observation to that. I didnt wish to make implications about that affecting how we judge things and what established knwoledge we have and how we test it before it is established.

Just an observation on that: belief and knowledge as states of mind.

Only that. The only reason I brought it up is due to the "issue" of gnosticism and agnosticism and whether or not there are any gnostics. Or even if that distinction is redundant.

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"][QUOTE="_R34LiTY_"]

tell that to the people that are left after taking 144,000 chosen ppl to go up in heaven singing Gods new song and praying the new prayeretc while the rest areforgotten about as theywallow in anguishin what will be hellon earth

Like you, I dont see why such a character would as well. but that's more or less right from the book itself. No?

_R34LiTY_

at the end of the Christian Bible, when Jesus hits 'Continue' and returns to earth, there are supposed to be seven seals & letters that have to be opened and read, and once they are all read, the Lamb will be chillin on top of Mountain Zion with 144,000 chosen peeps which will be rolling in Bentleys up in Heaven jamming to the new song. And these 144,00 are supposedly only to come fromt he twelve tribes of Israel and those are the one that go to heaven while the rest of us burn

[QUOTE="_R34LiTY_"]

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"] I don't know to what you're referring, but I know that there is no such belief in my religion. :|jalexbrown

at the end of the Christian Bible, when Jesus hits 'Continue' and returns to earth, there are supposed to be seven seals & letters that have to be opened and read, and once they are all read, the Lamb will be chillin on top of Mountain Zion with 144,000 chosen peeps which will be rolling in Bentleys up in Heaven jamming to the new song. And these 144,00 are supposedly only to come fromt he twelve tribes of Israel and those are the one that go to heaven while the rest of us burn

Same. Even if it's meant as code for something else, which some may try to argue, it's still to hocus pocus for me

[QUOTE="jalexbrown"][QUOTE="_R34LiTY_"]

at the end of the Christian Bible, when Jesus hits 'Continue' and returns to earth, there are supposed to be seven seals & letters that have to be opened and read, and once they are all read, the Lamb will be chillin on top of Mountain Zion with 144,000 chosen peeps which will be rolling in Bentleys up in Heaven jamming to the new song. And these 144,00 are supposedly only to come fromt he twelve tribes of Israel and those are the one that go to heaven while the rest of us burn

_R34LiTY_

Same. Even if it's meant as code for something else, which some may try to argue, it's still to hocus pocus for me