How do you feel about spousal rape as a legal issue?

Rape within marriage should be treated the same as rape out of marriage. If a woman doesn't want to have sex, no one should force her too. Gee, I thought we sorted this issue out in the 1960s ...

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

You already know how I feel. There can be no rape in a marriage. At least none that should be privy to the legal system.

It's clear that you have all been totally influenced by the "wisdom" of today's society. Like I said earlier, this is just my opinion. I laugh when people get all bent out of shape and try to belittle my thoughts because they're not commonly-accepted... because they're not how things are run today. People have way too many rights, and not enough obligation within marriage, IMO.

Feel free to keep posting arguments against me, I'll probably be back to check on this thread again later. It's been great fun if nothing else! :D

coolbeans90

Hey, feel free to counter mine. I am not sure what your views have been influenced by, but there is no Biblical basis for marital rape, but plenty against it.

In all honesty, I very highly doubt that God will judge kindly those whom rape their wives.

There is nothing in the Bible that, IMO, addresses marital rape. There IS, however.. a scripture that says you must give your spouse sex. You keep saying that the scriptures address marital rape, but IMO the scriptures that you seem to be referring to are far to broad to apply to married people's sexual lives.

There is nothing in the Bible that, IMO, addresses marital rape. There IS, however.. a scripture that says you must give your spouse sex. You keep saying that the scriptures address marital rape, but IMO the scriptures that you seem to be referring to are far to broad to apply to married people's sexual lives.

hartsickdiscipl

Close your book for a second. Do you really believe what you're saying? Are these your values?

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

There is nothing in the Bible that, IMO, addresses marital rape. There IS, however.. a scripture that says you must give your spouse sex. You keep saying that the scriptures address marital rape, but IMO the scriptures that you seem to be referring to are far to broad to apply to married people's sexual lives.

bloodling

Close your book for a second. Do you really believe what you're saying? Are these your values?

You know that I don't think it's "right" to force sex on anyone. The thing is, there's a big difference between the law and what's "right" in many cases, according to my values (and I hope other's). They don't have to be one and the same.

You know that I don't think it's "right" to force sex on anyone. The thing is, there's a big difference between the law and what's "right" in many cases, according to my values (and I hope other's). They don't have to be one and the same.

hartsickdiscipl

I think we can all agree on the fact that the legal system has flaws, but that doesn't make anything you said about marriage true.

Being married negates the whole "rape" thing, imo.juden41

Negated until they have a divorce?

Being married negates the whole "rape" thing, imo.juden41

That's where I'm at.

[QUOTE="bloodling"]

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

There is nothing in the Bible that, IMO, addresses marital rape. There IS, however.. a scripture that says you must give your spouse sex. You keep saying that the scriptures address marital rape, but IMO the scriptures that you seem to be referring to are far to broad to apply to married people's sexual lives.

hartsickdiscipl

Close your book for a second. Do you really believe what you're saying? Are these your values?

You know that I don't think it's "right" to force sex on anyone. The thing is, there's a big difference between the law and what's "right" in many cases, according to my values (and I hope other's). They don't have to be one and the same.

So at least 80% are absolutely sure it's rape. That's 20% too small.ProjectTrinity

Agreed... I don't understand why any crime should be legal because "it's too hard to prove"...

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="bloodling"]

Close your book for a second. Do you really believe what you're saying? Are these your values?

ghoklebutter

You know that I don't think it's "right" to force sex on anyone. The thing is, there's a big difference between the law and what's "right" in many cases, according to my values (and I hope other's). They don't have to be one and the same.

I respect your view on this, and you make very valid points, coming from the position of trying to keep the peace and enforce what most people consider "justice" in today's society. I for one, think that it's more important to uphold the concept of the marital due of sex in a marriage, than to try to protect everyone. Once you're married, rape is out the window, IMO. You know how I feel.. I've stated it 50 times at least in this thread alone.

[QUOTE="ProjectTrinity"]So at least 80% are absolutely sure it's rape. That's 20% too small.bloodling

Agreed... I don't understand why any crime should be legal because "it's too hard to prove"...

I for one, think that it's more important to uphold the concept of the marital due of sex in a marriage, than to try to protect everyone. Once you're married, rape is out the window, IMO.

hartsickdiscipl

There is no such thing in marriage... Your definition of marriage that includes rape is disturbing to say the least.

I for one, think that it's more important to uphold the concept of the marital due of sex in a mar Once you're married, rape is out the window, IMO. You know how I feel.. I've stated it 50 times at least in this thread alone.hartsickdiscipl

Rape... is rape... It doesn't really matter whether or not you're married. At all. In no way shape or form are rights to claim sexual abuse lessened by marriage or civil union.

I can't even believe I have to say this. At what point does forced sex not become rape?

Yea, but I think the US is too flexible on allowing testimony. A woman shouldn't be able to get her husband, or a stranger for that matter, convicted of rape just because she said it was rape. If they can prove that any injuries happened at the time of the attack, or they had third party witnesses, then that's acceptable. I'm just not sure first party testimony should be relevant at all. That's has more to do with the whole legal system than your post I guess.guynamedbilly

That's not how rapers are convincted, at all. In court, you need proof. There were thousands of rejected rape cases where the woman was lying.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] I'm not sure what religions allow rape....but Christianity...at least Catholicism does not. You can't blame the bible for someone subverting words to justify themselves....dhyce

It's not considered a noble act in the bible, except in those instances where Yahweh demands it. (As in Judges 21, and Numbers 31.)

But there are some horrifically confusing rules about rape, as in Deutoronomy 22, when it is said engaged women who are raped should be stoned, along with the rapist. If an unengaged woman is raped, she is to be sold for a small sum of silver to the rapist.

These are just two big examples that come to mind.

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]I for one, think that it's more important to uphold the concept of the marital due of sex in a mar Once you're married, rape is out the window, IMO. You know how I feel.. I've stated it 50 times at least in this thread alone.godwhydoibother

You call it misogyny, I call it God's law. I actually do feel that a married person should put out for their spouse when they want it, yes. I'm not sure if I would feel that way without the scripture that (by some interpretations) backs me up, I can't say.. I put much faith in the Bible. I can't say how I would view this without it influencing me.

[QUOTE="godwhydoibother"][QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]I for one, think that it's more important to uphold the concept of the marital due of sex in a mar Once you're married, rape is out the window, IMO. You know how I feel.. I've stated it 50 times at least in this thread alone.hartsickdiscipl

You call it misogyny, I call it God's law. I actually do feel that a married person should put out for their spouse when they want it, yes. I'm not sure if I would feel that way without the scripture that (by some interpretations) backs me up, I can't say.. I put much faith in the Bible. I can't say how I would view this without it influencing me.

What does God's law say about divorce? Obviously, these women won't stay married with these guys.

[QUOTE="guynamedbilly"]Yea, but I think the US is too flexible on allowing testimony. A woman shouldn't be able to get her husband, or a stranger for that matter, convicted of rape just because she said it was rape. If they can prove that any injuries happened at the time of the attack, or they had third party witnesses, then that's acceptable. I'm just not sure first party testimony should be relevant at all. That's has more to do with the whole legal system than your post I guess.bloodling

That's not how rapers are convincted, at all. In court, you need proof. There were thousands of rejected rape cases where the woman was lying.

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="godwhydoibother"]On what grounds? Do you actually have any justification for it other than your Biblical misogyny?bloodling

You call it misogyny, I call it God's law. I actually do feel that a married person should put out for their spouse when they want it, yes. I'm not sure if I would feel that way without the scripture that (by some interpretations) backs me up, I can't say.. I put much faith in the Bible. I can't say how I would view this without it influencing me.

What does God's law say about divorce? Obviously, these women won't stay married with these guys.

Divorce is allowed in cases of infidelity. I don't believe that forcing sex was addressed at all.

[QUOTE="bloodling"]

[QUOTE="guynamedbilly"]Yea, but I think the US is too flexible on allowing testimony. A woman shouldn't be able to get her husband, or a stranger for that matter, convicted of rape just because she said it was rape. If they can prove that any injuries happened at the time of the attack, or they had third party witnesses, then that's acceptable. I'm just not sure first party testimony should be relevant at all. That's has more to do with the whole legal system than your post I guess.guynamedbilly

That's not how rapers are convincted, at all. In court, you need proof. There were thousands of rejected rape cases where the woman was lying.

Allright, I agree with you.

[QUOTE="godwhydoibother"][QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]I for one, think that it's more important to uphold the concept of the marital due of sex in a mar Once you're married, rape is out the window, IMO. You know how I feel.. I've stated it 50 times at least in this thread alone.hartsickdiscipl

You call it misogyny, I call it God's law. I actually do feel that a married person should put out for their spouse when they want it, yes. I'm not sure if I would feel that way without the scripture that (by some interpretations) backs me up, I can't say.. I put much faith in the Bible. I can't say how I would view this without it influencing me.

Divorce is allowed in cases of infidelity. I don't believe that forcing sex was addressed at all.

hartsickdiscipl

So basically, according to your laws, even though a woman goes through divorce, her husband still should be able to rape her, since her divorce doesn't count in your eyes.

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

Divorce is allowed in cases of infidelity. I don't believe that forcing sex was addressed at all.

bloodling

So basically, according to your laws, even though a woman goes through divorce, her husband still should be able to rape her, since her divorce doesn't count in your eyes.

LOL! Sorry.. that painted a really funny/disturbing mental image. No.. divorce is divorce. All I'm saying is that I don't like the way our current system is set up. I'm not suggesting that people should start breaking the current law and forcing their spouse into having sex all the time because they think that the ancient Biblical law overrides all current ones in this matter. People need to be smart enough not to get themselves thrown in jail over something like this.

[QUOTE="godwhydoibother"][QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]I for one, think that it's more important to uphold the concept of the marital due of sex in a mar Once you're married, rape is out the window, IMO. You know how I feel.. I've stated it 50 times at least in this thread alone.hartsickdiscipl

You call it misogyny, I call it God's law. I actually do feel that a married person should put out for their spouse when they want it, yes. I'm not sure if I would feel that way without the scripture that (by some interpretations) backs me up, I can't say.. I put much faith in the Bible. I can't say how I would view this without it influencing me.

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"] There's no reason marital rape should be a grey matter; it should be as black as the night and white as light that rape is rape (sorry for the repetition :P). You seem to think that because it is the wife's duty to be a sexual outlet for the husband, you can't really deem marital rape as rape. While sex is certainly important in relationships, it's not the main reason for marriage. Marriage is essentially a platonic or non-platonic union between two people. I understand that you're against rape in all cases, but marital rape shouldn't be left in the dark simply because of marriage. If what you're suggesting was a real law, there would be a great chance of misinterpretation of the law (i.e. men would think it's okay to have sex with their wives at any time) and danger for the wife (caused by the former). The safest thing to do is to extend the laws of rape over every single case, including marriage.Lilyanne46

I respect your view on this, and you make very valid points, coming from the position of trying to keep the peace and enforce what most people consider "justice" in today's society. I for one, think that it's more important to uphold the concept of the marital due of sex in a marriage, than to try to protect everyone. Once you're married, rape is out the window, IMO. You know how I feel.. I've stated it 50 times at least in this thread alone.

What's the point then? Your point is across. You keep telling us "rape goes out the window in marriage". I simply disagree, and you don't seem to look through another perspective. It's a little close-minded if you ask me, assuming that marital rape does not exist because of your own belief. Not everyone believes the Bible, and you keep referring back to it like everyone should...

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"] There's no reason marital rape should be a grey matter; it should be as black as the night and white as light that rape is rape (sorry for the repetition :P). You seem to think that because it is the wife's duty to be a sexual outlet for the husband, you can't really deem marital rape as rape. While sex is certainly important in relationships, it's not the main reason for marriage. Marriage is essentially a platonic or non-platonic union between two people. I understand that you're against rape in all cases, but marital rape shouldn't be left in the dark simply because of marriage. If what you're suggesting was a real law, there would be a great chance of misinterpretation of the law (i.e. men would think it's okay to have sex with their wives at any time) and danger for the wife (caused by the former). The safest thing to do is to extend the laws of rape over every single case, including marriage.Lilyanne46

I respect your view on this, and you make very valid points, coming from the position of trying to keep the peace and enforce what most people consider "justice" in today's society. I for one, think that it's more important to uphold the concept of the marital due of sex in a marriage, than to try to protect everyone. Once you're married, rape is out the window, IMO. You know how I feel.. I've stated it 50 times at least in this thread alone.

What's the point then? Your point is across. You keep telling us "rape goes out the window in marriage". I simply disagree, and you don't seem to look through another perspective. It's a little close-minded if you ask me, assuming that marital rape does not exist because of your own belief. Not everyone believes the Bible, and you keep referring back to it like everyone should...

Not looking at it through another perspective? I've complimented posters (yourself included) on the delivery of your arguments, and acknowledged how they could be seen as valid points. I've spent quite alot of time looking at it through other perspectives. :? That doesn't mean that I'm going to change MY mind, and stop using the Bible as a guide and source to back my opinions. If you don't think the book has much value, just state that and be done with it. Don't tell me that I shouldn't refer to it. I'd much rather refer to what I feel is the word of God recorded by men, than to judge things by some twisted contemporary standards. Twisted, IMO.. of course.

[QUOTE="bloodling"]

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

Divorce is allowed in cases of infidelity. I don't believe that forcing sex was addressed at all.

hartsickdiscipl

So basically, according to your laws, even though a woman goes through divorce, her husband still should be able to rape her, since her divorce doesn't count in your eyes.

LOL! Sorry.. that painted a really funny/disturbing mental image. No.. divorce is divorce. All I'm saying is that I don't like the way our current system is set up. I'm not suggesting that people should start breaking the current law and forcing their spouse into having sex all the time because they think that the ancient Biblical law overrides all current ones in this matter. People need to be smart enough not to get themselves thrown in jail over something like this.

Which brings me to my next point: it doesn't matter what your definition of marriage is.

Don't tell me that I shouldn't refer to it.hartsickdiscipl

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="bloodling"]

So basically, according to your laws, even though a woman goes through divorce, her husband still should be able to rape her, since her divorce doesn't count in your eyes.

bloodling

LOL! Sorry.. that painted a really funny/disturbing mental image. No.. divorce is divorce. All I'm saying is that I don't like the way our current system is set up. I'm not suggesting that people should start breaking the current law and forcing their spouse into having sex all the time because they think that the ancient Biblical law overrides all current ones in this matter. People need to be smart enough not to get themselves thrown in jail over something like this.

Which brings me to my next point: it doesn't matter what your definition of marriage is.

I thought we were talking about people's opinions and beliefs here friend.. not the real-world law as it stands. Anybody can just quote the current lawbook and stand behind it. That's not good conversation.

[QUOTE="bloodling"]

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

LOL! Sorry.. that painted a really funny/disturbing mental image. No.. divorce is divorce. All I'm saying is that I don't like the way our current system is set up. I'm not suggesting that people should start breaking the current law and forcing their spouse into having sex all the time because they think that the ancient Biblical law overrides all current ones in this matter. People need to be smart enough not to get themselves thrown in jail over something like this.

hartsickdiscipl

Which brings me to my next point: it doesn't matter what your definition of marriage is.

I thought we were talking about people's opinions and beliefs here friend.. not the real-world law as it stands. Anybody can just quote the current lawbook and stand behind it. That's not good conversation.

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]Don't tell me that I shouldn't refer to it.godwhydoibother

I doubt that you have the chops or the understanding of the book to make a legitimate argument to support your point. I'm deeply offended that you would refer to my source as "crap," but instead of getting pissed off, I'll just ignore you.

[QUOTE="bloodling"]

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

LOL! Sorry.. that painted a really funny/disturbing mental image. No.. divorce is divorce. All I'm saying is that I don't like the way our current system is set up. I'm not suggesting that people should start breaking the current law and forcing their spouse into having sex all the time because they think that the ancient Biblical law overrides all current ones in this matter. People need to be smart enough not to get themselves thrown in jail over something like this.

hartsickdiscipl

Which brings me to my next point: it doesn't matter what your definition of marriage is.

I thought we were talking about people's opinions and beliefs here friend.. not the real-world law as it stands. Anybody can just quote the current lawbook and stand behind it. That's not good conversation.

I have already talked about all the other sides of the story, values in particular, and believing forcing people to have sex with them is OK.

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="bloodling"]

Which brings me to my next point: it doesn't matter what your definition of marriage is.

godwhydoibother

I thought we were talking about people's opinions and beliefs here friend.. not the real-world law as it stands. Anybody can just quote the current lawbook and stand behind it. That's not good conversation.

Just because something is, doesn't mean that it should be that way in the minds of all. That's why we have forums like this.. to discuss different viewpoints. Not to harp on the law. How much fun is that? There's no creativity or thinking there. I trust God's law much more than secular law. You won't change that.

[QUOTE="ProjectTrinity"][QUOTE="Lilyanne46"]

What's the point then? Your point is across. You keep telling us "rape goes out the window in marriage". I simply disagree, and you don't seem to look through another perspective. It's a little close-minded if you ask me, assuming that marital rape does not exist because of your own belief. Not everyone believes the Bible, and you keep referring back to it like everyone should...

Lilyanne46

Haha. XD Lol, I'm not religious, but I believe in God. Sure, some things don't make sense to me. :P I just have atheist friends and I hate it when religion is shoved down their throat.

[QUOTE="godwhydoibother"][QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]Don't tell me that I shouldn't refer to it.hartsickdiscipl

I doubt that you have the chops or the understanding of the book to make a legitimate argument to support your point. I'm deeply offended that you would refer to my source as "crap," but instead of getting pissed off, I'll just ignore you.

If someone is forced into unwanted sex, it is always rape and it should be a legal matter. It's disgusting to even see you think otherwise. HoolaHoopMan

Me and the 27 other people who voted "No." :P

[QUOTE="godwhydoibother"][QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

I thought we were talking about people's opinions and beliefs here friend.. not the real-world law as it stands. Anybody can just quote the current lawbook and stand behind it. That's not good conversation.

hartsickdiscipl

Just because something is, doesn't mean that it should be that way in the minds of all. That's why we have forums like this.. to discuss different viewpoints. Not to harp on the law. How much fun is that? There's no creativity or thinking there. I trust God's law much more than secular law. You won't change that.

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="godwhydoibother"]Oh? Why not? Don't we have every right to point out to you when your source is full of crap?godwhydoibother

I doubt that you have the chops or the understanding of the book to make a legitimate argument to support your point. I'm deeply offended that you would refer to my source as "crap," but instead of getting pissed off, I'll just ignore you.

You're not pointing out WHY it's full of crap. You're simply saying that it is. I could say that about any source anybody references.

TC, I recall you saying that marital rape is a sign that the sexual relations in the marriage have to be sorted out. This is too idealistic, because even adults can act like children. In other words, not everyone can solve marital issues easily. To say that marital rape is something that can be easily solved is silly. A husband who constantly and mercilessly rapes his wife is not in the best mindset. Rape is a crime commited usually for a sense of power over another and humiliation and degradation of the victim. Therefore, we can safely conclude that such a husband would have a twisted, abusive, and controlling mindset that is certainly under the category of marital discord. In order to reduce as much suffering as possible, the laws of rape must be extended to cases in marriage. This can only mean good for society.

Sometimes rape is done due to raging sexual desire. I'm pretty sure a husband's tearing his wife's clothes off and raping her for God knows how long constitutes as marital abuse. Rape is excruciatingly painful, after all. And since you are clearly against marital abuse, it logically follows that marital rape is also considered abuse. But of course, like I said, marital rape is rape.

You also said something about sexual satisfaction in marriage. Well, for the sake of simplicity, let's consider sex to be the primary reason for marriage. If marriage was a ticket to rape for sick bastards, then how much different is it from, say, those rapists raping women outside of marriage? In fact, if this was the case, women would be in great danger, since marital rape would be practically legal.

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="godwhydoibother"]No. Marriage is defined in secular, legal terms. Whatever the lawbooks say marriage is, marriage is.godwhydoibother

Just because something is, doesn't mean that it should be that way in the minds of all. That's why we have forums like this.. to discuss different viewpoints. Not to harp on the law. How much fun is that? There's no creativity or thinking there. I trust God's law much more than secular law. You won't change that.

You're no longer part of this conversation. You can post, but I won't respond. You are showing no respect for other's views or religious convictions.

[QUOTE="godwhydoibother"][QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

I doubt that you have the chops or the understanding of the book to make a legitimate argument to support your point. I'm deeply offended that you would refer to my source as "crap," but instead of getting pissed off, I'll just ignore you.

hartsickdiscipl

You're not pointing out WHY it's full of crap. You're simply saying that it is. I could say that about any source anybody references.

[QUOTE="godwhydoibother"][QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

Just because something is, doesn't mean that it should be that way in the minds of all. That's why we have forums like this.. to discuss different viewpoints. Not to harp on the law. How much fun is that? There's no creativity or thinking there. I trust God's law much more than secular law. You won't change that.

hartsickdiscipl

You're no longer part of this conversation. You can post, but I won't respond. You are showing no respect for other's views or religious convictions.