I was in a debate with a creationist yesterday....

okay. If I killed someone because I believed in evolution, would that make evolution wrong or bad?verparanoidpers

Of course not. Evolution doesn't claim to be a system that people should base their moral choices on. Evolution describes a phenomonon that occurs in the natural world.

Religion on the other hand is a belief system that claims to offer guidence on how one should behave morally.

There are several verses in the bible(old testament)that demand the killing of people.

Just putting that out there...

xxDustmanxx

Then Judaism is a bad religion.

If you want to go at Christianity, find a teaching from Jesus that condones killing and congrats!

There are several verses in the bible(old testament)that demand the killing of people.

Just putting that out there...

xxDustmanxx

Then Judaism iswhat you're looking for.

If you want to go at Christianity, find a teaching from Jesus that condones killing and congrats!

So the PERFECT god decide to change its mind?I thought people changed their minds when mistaken,that would make the christian god very well human,only providing evidence to show that the christian god did not create man,but that man created god.

xxDustmanxx

God didn't change His mind. . .He changed His rules. Jesus came and changed how everything worked.

[QUOTE="xxDustmanxx"]

There are several verses in the bible(old testament)that demand the killing of people.

Just putting that out there...

Dracargen

Then Judaism is a bad religion.

If you want to go at Christianity, find a teaching from Jesus that condones killing and congrats!

Im not saying jesus was a bad dude,Im just not going to worship him as god.

If he even existed.

[QUOTE="Dracargen"][QUOTE="xxDustmanxx"]

There are several verses in the bible(old testament)that demand the killing of people.

Just putting that out there...

xxDustmanxx

Then Judaism is a bad religion.

If you want to go at Christianity, find a teaching from Jesus that condones killing and congrats!

Im not saying jesus was a bad dude,Im just not going to worship him as god.

If he even existed.

There is very little doubt that jesus existed. . .Christ-mythers like Archarya S. are to history as young-earth creationists are to science. . .

[QUOTE="xxDustmanxx"]

So the PERFECT god decide to change its mind?I thought people changed their minds when mistaken,that would make the christian god very well human,only providing evidence to show that the christian god did not create man,but that man created god.

Dracargen

God didn't change His mind. . .He changed His rules. Jesus came and changed how everything worked.

Why would god change his rules?Maybe because they were wrong?

And isnt jesus supposed to be god,so god sent himself to earth to fix his own mistake?

GOD shouldnt make mistakes.

[QUOTE="xxDustmanxx"]

There are several verses in the bible(old testament)that demand the killing of people.

Just putting that out there...

Dracargen

Then Judaism is a bad religion.

If you want to go at Christianity, find a teaching from Jesus that condones killing and congrats!

If you are going to go solely by Jesus's teachings...that would mean avoiding anything in the Bible not having to do with Jesus. So, is Christianity what Jesus preaches, or what is said in the Bible?

[QUOTE="Dracargen"][QUOTE="xxDustmanxx"]

So the PERFECT god decide to change its mind?I thought people changed their minds when mistaken,that would make the christian god very well human,only providing evidence to show that the christian god did not create man,but that man created god.

xxDustmanxx

God didn't change His mind. . .He changed His rules. Jesus came and changed how everything worked.

Why would god change his rules?Maybe because they were wrong?

And isnt jesus supposed to be god,so god sent himself to earth to fix his own mistake?

GOD shouldnt make mistakes.

[QUOTE="Decessus"][QUOTE="Dracargen"]

Oh, the crusades definitely had religion involved. . .but religion didn't cause them. Religion was used as a way t show the people that the people waging war were right; That it was what God willed instead of what man willed.

Dracargen

So if the Muslims had not conquered Jerusalem, do you believe the Crusades would still have happened?

I don't know. I can't see what would have happened in an alternate timeline.

Then how can you say for certain that religion was not one of the causes of the Crusades?

Then how can you say for certain that religion was not one of the causes of the Crusades?

Decessus

Because I CAN see what happened in this timeline.:|

[QUOTE="xxDustmanxx"][QUOTE="Dracargen"][QUOTE="xxDustmanxx"]

There are several verses in the bible(old testament)that demand the killing of people.

Just putting that out there...

Dracargen

Then Judaism is a bad religion.

If you want to go at Christianity, find a teaching from Jesus that condones killing and congrats!

Im not saying jesus was a bad dude,Im just not going to worship him as god.

If he even existed.

There is very little doubt that jesus existed. . .Christ-mythers like Archarya S. are to history as young-earth creationists are to science. . .

Well if jesus existed thats great.Still not worshiping him as god,good prophet though,he had the right idea.

I Dont see anyone worshiping gandhi,and he had the right idea,martin luther king junior,also had the right idea,still not god.

[QUOTE="Dracargen"][QUOTE="xxDustmanxx"][QUOTE="Dracargen"][QUOTE="xxDustmanxx"]

There are several verses in the bible(old testament)that demand the killing of people.

Just putting that out there...

xxDustmanxx

Then Judaism is a bad religion.

If you want to go at Christianity, find a teaching from Jesus that condones killing and congrats!

Im not saying jesus was a bad dude,Im just not going to worship him as god.

If he even existed.

There is very little doubt that jesus existed. . .Christ-mythers like Archarya S. are to history as young-earth creationists are to science. . .

Well if jesus existed thats great.Still not worshiping him as god,good prophet though,he had the right idea.

I Dont see anyone worshiping gandhi,and he had the right idea,martin luther king junior,also had the right idea,still not god.

alright decessus, If I killed a person because I said you told me to, would that make you responsible?verparanoidpers

Yes, that's why Charles Manson is in jail, along with people who hire contract killers to do their dirty work.

I'm sorry, but claiming that only the new testament is relevent for Christians is pretty hard to justify. Jesus was jewish, he claimed to be the jewish messiah. Luke's Gospel specifically states that Jesus was circumcised, therefore he followed jewish law. Christianity is really just a sect of Judaism, the key difference to the myriad of others claiming that X was the messiah in that it allowed gentiles to convert. There is very little that Jesus says to contradict anything in the old testament, most of the laws he breaks are those that were imposed by the priests with very little justification in the scriptures.

Also, Jesus was never believed to fix God's mistake, but rather he was a "last chance saloon" for salvation, after the repeated violations of God's covenant with Abraham.

[QUOTE="Decessus"]

Then how can you say for certain that religion was not one of the causes of the Crusades?

Dracargen

Because I CAN see what happened in this timeline.:|

Denying that religion was one of the main causes of the Crusades is ignorant, and an insult to those who died.

The Crusades were started to reclaim the "Holy Land". That is a religious reason.

[QUOTE="Decessus"]

Then how can you say for certain that religion was not one of the causes of the Crusades?

Dracargen

Because I CAN see what happened in this timeline.:|

Whether you would like to admit it or not, Christianity was at the core of the Crusades. The leader of the Catholic Church, Urban the Second,issued an edict promising that all christians that wanted penance could recieve such if they took back the Holy land, which was their duty. If that isn't religious at it's core than I don't know what is.

[QUOTE="Dracargen"][QUOTE="xxDustmanxx"]

There are several verses in the bible(old testament)that demand the killing of people.

Just putting that out there...

Donkey_Puncher

Then Judaism iswhat you're looking for.

If you want to go at Christianity, find a teaching from Jesus that condones killing and congrats!

The Old testament is a fundemental part of Christianity. If it wasn't it wouldn't be contained in the Bible.

The Old Testament is fundamental to the history of the world, and the events leading up to Jesus, and the Creation, etc.

Its laws. . .not so much.

[QUOTE="Dracargen"][QUOTE="xxDustmanxx"]

There are several verses in the bible(old testament)that demand the killing of people.

Just putting that out there...

Donkey_Puncher

Then Judaism iswhat you're looking for.

If you want to go at Christianity, find a teaching from Jesus that condones killing and congrats!

The Old testament is a fundemental part of Christianity. If it wasn't it wouldn't be contained in the Bible.

Well put.

[QUOTE="Donkey_Puncher"][QUOTE="Dracargen"][QUOTE="xxDustmanxx"]

There are several verses in the bible(old testament)that demand the killing of people.

Just putting that out there...

Dracargen

Then Judaism iswhat you're looking for.

If you want to go at Christianity, find a teaching from Jesus that condones killing and congrats!

The Old testament is a fundemental part of Christianity. If it wasn't it wouldn't be contained in the Bible.

The Old Testament is fundamental to the history of the world, and the events leading up to Jesus, and the Creation, etc.

Its laws. . .not so much.

Wrong again...it's laws were very important through much of Christian history.

The Old Testament is fundamental to the history of the world, and the events leading up to Jesus, and the Creation, etc.

Its laws. . .not so much.

Dracargen

The Ten Commands aren't relevant to Christianity then?

What about all the fuss Christians throw out there with Creationism and reciting verses in Leviticus against Homoesexuality then?

[QUOTE="Donkey_Puncher"][QUOTE="Dracargen"][QUOTE="xxDustmanxx"]

There are several verses in the bible(old testament)that demand the killing of people.

Just putting that out there...

Dracargen

Then Judaism iswhat you're looking for.

If you want to go at Christianity, find a teaching from Jesus that condones killing and congrats!

The Old testament is a fundemental part of Christianity. If it wasn't it wouldn't be contained in the Bible.

The Old Testament is fundamental to the history of the world, and the events leading up to Jesus, and the Creation, etc.

Its laws. . .not so much.

Because they were wrong,wouldnt that mean that your ideas of god are wrong?

Then again what do i know?

[QUOTE="Dracargen"][QUOTE="Decessus"]

Then how can you say for certain that religion was not one of the causes of the Crusades?

Donkey_Puncher

Because I CAN see what happened in this timeline.:|

Whether you would like to admit it or not, Christianity was at the core of the Crusades. The leader of the Catholic Church, Urban the Second,issued an edict promising that all christians that wanted penance could recieve such if they took back the Holy land, which was their duty. If that isn't religious at it's core than I don't know what is.

Oh! The Pope said it, so it was a part of Christianity! IT MUST BE TRUE!!!!!!!!:o:o:o:o

Seriously, the Pope said that in order to get more recruits. . .that should be painfully obvious, unless you'd like to point out in the Bible where it says "Thou must go to a Crusade, or you will not enter Heaven."

[

Wrong again...it's laws were very important through much of Christian history.

The_Ish

Isn't that what I said?

It's laws were important to the events leading up to Jesus. . .the Old Testament, the history of Judaism.

[QUOTE="Donkey_Puncher"][QUOTE="Dracargen"][QUOTE="Decessus"]

Then how can you say for certain that religion was not one of the causes of the Crusades?

Dracargen

Because I CAN see what happened in this timeline.:|

Whether you would like to admit it or not, Christianity was at the core of the Crusades. The leader of the Catholic Church, Urban the Second,issued an edict promising that all christians that wanted penance could recieve such if they took back the Holy land, which was their duty. If that isn't religious at it's core than I don't know what is.

Oh! The Pope said it, so it was a part of Christianity! IT MUST BE TRUE!!!!!!!!:o:o:o:o

Seriously, the Pope said that in order to get more recruits. . .that should be painfully obvious, unless you'd like to point out in the Bible where it says "Thou must go to a Crusade, or you will not enter Heaven."

The Pope was pretty much the head of the Christian institution, so when the Pope says something, it is a reflection of Christianity, otherwise, he wouldn't be the Pope.

Oh! The Pope said it, so it was a part of Christianity! IT MUST BE TRUE!!!!!!!!:o:o:o:o

Seriously, the Pope said that in order to get more recruits. . .that should be painfully obvious, unless you'd like to point out in the Bible where it says "Thou must go to a Crusade, or you will not enter Heaven."

Dracargen

I consider you brush up on your medieval history including the crusades.

It's irrelevant that the Bible doesn't contain any passages about Crusading, the fact is that the Catholic church declared them and Tens of Thousands of Christians followed in it's wake. The figure head of a religion demanded a crusade, and Christians answered, hence the crusades were a result of Christian fanatisism.

[QUOTE="The_Ish"][

Wrong again...it's laws were very important through much of Christian history.

Dracargen

Isn't that what I said?

It's laws were important to the events leading up to Jesus. . .the Old Testament, the history of Judaism.

No, you said the Old Testament was important, not it's laws.

[QUOTE="Dracargen"]

Oh! The Pope said it, so it was a part of Christianity! IT MUST BE TRUE!!!!!!!!:o:o:o:o

Seriously, the Pope said that in order to get more recruits. . .that should be painfully obvious, unless you'd like to point out in the Bible where it says "Thou must go to a Crusade, or you will not enter Heaven."

Donkey_Puncher

I consider you brush up on your medieval history including the crusades.

It's irrelevant that the Bible doesn't contain any passages about Crusading, the fact is that the Catholic church declared them and Tens of Thousands of Christians followed in it's wake. The figure head of a religion demanded a crusade, and Christians answered, hence the crusades were a result of Christian fanatisism.

[QUOTE="Donkey_Puncher"][QUOTE="Dracargen"][QUOTE="Decessus"]

Then how can you say for certain that religion was not one of the causes of the Crusades?

Dracargen

Because I CAN see what happened in this timeline.:|

Whether you would like to admit it or not, Christianity was at the core of the Crusades. The leader of the Catholic Church, Urban the Second,issued an edict promising that all christians that wanted penance could recieve such if they took back the Holy land, which was their duty. If that isn't religious at it's core than I don't know what is.

Oh! The Pope said it, so it was a part of Christianity! IT MUST BE TRUE!!!!!!!!:o:o:o:o

Seriously, the Pope said that in order to get more recruits. . .that should be painfully obvious, unless you'd like to point out in the Bible where it says "Thou must go to a Crusade, or you will not enter Heaven."

Perhaps it is incorrect to say that Christianity (and to a certain extent Islam as well) was the cause of the Crusades. Instead, it might be better to say that Christianity was used to justify the Crusades.

[QUOTE="helium_flash"]

The Crusades, the Holocaust, ect. :|

Dracargen

Niether of those were religious.:|

The Crusades were made in order to gain land that people wanted.

The holocaust. . . .wait, how in hell was the holocaust caused by religion?

The Holocaust was initiated by a Christian. Yes, Hitler was a Christian. There is a lot of evidence for that.

[QUOTE="Dracargen"]

The Old Testament is fundamental to the history of the world, and the events leading up to Jesus, and the Creation, etc.

Its laws. . .not so much.

Donkey_Puncher

The Ten Commands aren't relevant to Christianity then?

What about all the fuss Christians throw out there with Creationism and reciting verses in Leviticus against Homoesexuality then?

Do you see any Christians celebrating the Sabbath?

Those Christians are obviously misinformed. Creationism? Only a minority do that. . .same with Leviticus, actually, but let's look at some verses from the OT that some people tend to ignore:

As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. (Ezek 33:11; see also 18:32)

If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. (Jer 18:7-8)

Go up and down the streets of Jerusalem, look around and consider, search through her squares. If you can find but one person who deals honestly and seeks the truth, I will forgive this city. (Jer 5:1)

Food for thought on God's jealousy and wrath:

They did not destroy the peoples as the Lord had commanded them, but they mingled with the nations and adopted their customs. They worshiped their idols, which became a snare to them. They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons. They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was desecrated by their blood. (Psalm 106:34-38)

They pour out drink offerings to other gods to provoke me to anger. But am I the one they are provoking? declares the LORD. Are they not rather harming themselves, to their own shame? (Jer 7:18-19)

The righteous perish, and no one ponders it in his heart; devout men are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil. (Is 57:1)

Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19:18)

If you come across your enemy's ox or donkey wandering off, be sure to take it back to him. If you see the donkey of someone who hates you fallen down under its load, do not leave it there; be sure you help him with it. (Ex 23:4-5)

When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. (Lev 19:33-34)

Do not take advantage of a widow or an orphan. If you do and they cry out to me, I will certainly hear their cry. (Ex 22:22-23)

Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. (Lev 19:14)

Cursed is the man who leads the blind astray on the road. (Dt 27:18)

When you make a loan of any kind to your neighbor, do not go into his house to get what he is offering as a pledge. Stay outside and let the man to whom you are making the loan bring the pledge out to you. If the man is poor, do not go to sleep with his pledge in your possession. Return his cloak to him by sunset so that he may sleep in it. Then he will thank you, and it will be regarded as a righteous act in the sight of the Lord your God.

Do not take advantage of a hired man who is poor and needy, whether he is a brother Israelite or an alien living in one of your towns. Pay him his wages each day before sunset, because he is poor and is counting on it. Otherwise he may cry to the Lord against you, and you will be guilty of sin. (Dt 24:10-15)

If there is a poor man among your brothers in any of the towns of the land that the Lord your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward your poor brother. Rather be openhanded and freely lend him whatever he needs. Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: "The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near," so that you do not show ill will toward your needy brother and give him nothing. He may then appeal to the Lord against you, and you will be found guilty of sin. Give generously to him and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to. There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land. (Dt 15:7-11)

When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. (Lev 19:9-10)

When you are harvesting in your field and you overlook a sheaf, do not go back to get it. Leave it for the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. When you beat the olives from your trees, do not go over the branches a second time. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow. When you harvest the grapes in your vineyard, do not go over the vines again. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow. Remember that you were slaves in Egypt. That is why I command you to do this. (Dt 24:19-22)

At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns, so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. (Dt 14:28-29)

in the context of the debate that we're having, its completely relevant as it destroys your argument that christianity caused the crusadesverparanoidpers

The context is whether or not Christianity is at the core of the Crusades, which it was. The Pope issued an edict and with religious penance in mind, and tens of thousands took to the cross: Hence CHRISTIANITY started the first Crusade.

[QUOTE="Dracargen"][QUOTE="helium_flash"]

The Crusades, the Holocaust, ect. :|

The_Ish

Niether of those were religious.:|

The Crusades were made in order to gain land that people wanted.

The holocaust. . . .wait, how in hell was the holocaust caused by religion?

The Holocaust was initiated by a Christian. Yes, Hitler was a Christian. There is a lot of evidence for that.

:lol:

Hitler was NOT a Christian. . .and I can prove it from HIS OWN LETTERS.

All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday:

Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday:

The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night:

The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

21st October, 1941, midday:

Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, **** Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight:

Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)

14th December, 1941, midday:

Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner:

There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday:

It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)

Hitler believed in a pagan Aryan religion.

Do you see any Christians celebrating the Sabbath?

Those Christians are obviously misinformed. Creationism? Only a minority do that. . .same with Leviticus, actually, but let's look at some verses from the OT that some people tend to ignore:

Dracargen

You didn't answer my question. What about the ten commandments? They're contained with in the Old Testament, should we discard those laws?

[QUOTE="Donkey_Puncher"]

[QUOTE="Dracargen"]

The Old Testament is fundamental to the history of the world, and the events leading up to Jesus, and the Creation, etc.

Its laws. . .not so much.

Dracargen

The Ten Commands aren't relevant to Christianity then?

What about all the fuss Christians throw out there with Creationism and reciting verses in Leviticus against Homoesexuality then?

Do you see any Christians celebrating the Sabbath?

Those Christians are obviously misinformed. Creationism? Only a minority do that. . .same with Leviticus, actually, but let's look at some verses from the OT that some people tend to ignore:

As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. (Ezek 33:11; see also 18:32)

If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. (Jer 18:7-8)

Go up and down the streets of Jerusalem, look around and consider, search through her squares. If you can find but one person who deals honestly and seeks the truth, I will forgive this city. (Jer 5:1)

Food for thought on God's jealousy and wrath:

They did not destroy the peoples as the Lord had commanded them, but they mingled with the nations and adopted their customs. They worshiped their idols, which became a snare to them. They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons. They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was desecrated by their blood. (Psalm 106:34-38)

They pour out drink offerings to other gods to provoke me to anger. But am I the one they are provoking? declares the LORD. Are they not rather harming themselves, to their own shame? (Jer 7:18-19)

The righteous perish, and no one ponders it in his heart; devout men are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil. (Is 57:1)

Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19:18)

If you come across your enemy's ox or donkey wandering off, be sure to take it back to him. If you see the donkey of someone who hates you fallen down under its load, do not leave it there; be sure you help him with it. (Ex 23:4-5)

When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. (Lev 19:33-34)

Do not take advantage of a widow or an orphan. If you do and they cry out to me, I will certainly hear their cry. (Ex 22:22-23)

Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. (Lev 19:14)

Cursed is the man who leads the blind astray on the road. (Dt 27:18)

When you make a loan of any kind to your neighbor, do not go into his house to get what he is offering as a pledge. Stay outside and let the man to whom you are making the loan bring the pledge out to you. If the man is poor, do not go to sleep with his pledge in your possession. Return his cloak to him by sunset so that he may sleep in it. Then he will thank you, and it will be regarded as a righteous act in the sight of the Lord your God.

Do not take advantage of a hired man who is poor and needy, whether he is a brother Israelite or an alien living in one of your towns. Pay him his wages each day before sunset, because he is poor and is counting on it. Otherwise he may cry to the Lord against you, and you will be guilty of sin. (Dt 24:10-15)

If there is a poor man among your brothers in any of the towns of the land that the Lord your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward your poor brother. Rather be openhanded and freely lend him whatever he needs. Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: "The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near," so that you do not show ill will toward your needy brother and give him nothing. He may then appeal to the Lord against you, and you will be found guilty of sin. Give generously to him and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to. There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land. (Dt 15:7-11)

When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. (Lev 19:9-10)

When you are harvesting in your field and you overlook a sheaf, do not go back to get it. Leave it for the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. When you beat the olives from your trees, do not go over the branches a second time. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow. When you harvest the grapes in your vineyard, do not go over the vines again. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow. Remember that you were slaves in Egypt. That is why I command you to do this. (Dt 24:19-22)

At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns, so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. (Dt 14:28-29)

Way too much to read,you should have just given us the verse locations in the bible.

[QUOTE="Dracargen"][QUOTE="helium_flash"]

The Crusades, the Holocaust, ect. :|

The_Ish

Niether of those were religious.:|

The Crusades were made in order to gain land that people wanted.

The holocaust. . . .wait, how in hell was the holocaust caused by religion?

The Holocaust was initiated by a Christian. Yes, Hitler was a Christian. There is a lot of evidence for that.

Assuming that Hitler was a Christian, that does not support your claim that the Holocaust was primarily influence by religious motives.

Perhaps it is incorrect to say that Christianity (and to a certain extent Islam as well) was the cause of the Crusades. Instead, it might be better to say that Christianity was used to justify the Crusades.

Decessus

THAT's IT!!!!

HE GETS IT!

HE GETS IT!!

OH!!

YAY!!

I FINALLY MADE SOME SENSE!!!

That is EXACTLY correct!!

*dances*

[QUOTE="Dracargen"]

Do you see any Christians celebrating the Sabbath?

Those Christians are obviously misinformed. Creationism? Only a minority do that. . .same with Leviticus, actually, but let's look at some verses from the OT that some people tend to ignore:

Donkey_Puncher

You didn't answer my question. What about the ten commandments? They're contained with in the Old Testament, should we discard those laws?

Yes I did. . .do you see any Christians celebrating the Sabbath?

[QUOTE="Donkey_Puncher"]

[QUOTE="Dracargen"]

Do you see any Christians celebrating the Sabbath?

Those Christians are obviously misinformed. Creationism? Only a minority do that. . .same with Leviticus, actually, but let's look at some verses from the OT that some people tend to ignore:

Dracargen

You didn't answer my question. What about the ten commandments? They're contained with in the Old Testament, should we discard those laws?

Yes I did. . .do you see any Christians celebrating the Sabbath?

That's one commandment, not ten. Again.....answer my question.

[QUOTE="Decessus"]

Perhaps it is incorrect to say that Christianity (and to a certain extent Islam as well) was the cause of the Crusades. Instead, it might be better to say that Christianity was used to justify the Crusades.

Dracargen

THAT's IT!!!!

HE GETS IT!

HE GETS IT!!

OH!!

YAY!!

I FINALLY MADE SOME SENSE!!!

That is EXACTLY correct!!

*dances*

If Christianity can be used to justify something as bad as the Crusades, don't you think that implies there is a fundamental flaw in the Christian belief system?

[QUOTE="Donkey_Puncher"]

[QUOTE="Dracargen"]

Do you see any Christians celebrating the Sabbath?

Those Christians are obviously misinformed. Creationism? Only a minority do that. . .same with Leviticus, actually, but let's look at some verses from the OT that some people tend to ignore:

Dracargen

You didn't answer my question. What about the ten commandments? They're contained with in the Old Testament, should we discard those laws?

Yes I did. . .do you see any Christians celebrating the Sabbath?

Lots of Christians celebrate the Sabbath.

That's one commandment, not ten. Again.....answer my question.

Donkey_Puncher

You obviously do not understand Christianity.

You cannot pick one commandment to not follow and follow all the others.

Unless, of course, God deemed it no longer necessary.;)

Jesus also added to the Ten Commandments. If you hate somebody, then that is equivalent to murder. If you lust for a woman when you already are engaging in a relationship, then that is equivalent to adultery. Technically, the Ten Commandments from the OT do not matter as much as the Commandments from Christ.

Earlier you said the pope is the figurehead of Christianity. That is wrong on as many levels as possible. Jesus is the figurehead of Christianity; Nobody else.

[QUOTE="Donkey_Puncher"]

That's one commandment, not ten. Again.....answer my question.

Dracargen

You obviously do not understand Christianity.

You cannot pick one commandment to not follow and follow all the others.

Unless, of course, God deemed it no longer necessary.;)

Jesus also added to the Ten Commandments. If you hate somebody, then that is equivalent to murder. If you lust for a woman when you already are engaging in a relationship, then that is equivalent to adultery. Technically, the Ten Commandments from the OT do not matter as much as the Commandments from Christ.

Earlier you said the pope is the figurehead of Christianity. That is wrong on as many levels as possible. Jesus is the figurehead of Christianity; Nobody else.

Until the Reformation, the Pope was the spiritual leader of Christianity.

[QUOTE="Dracargen"][QUOTE="Decessus"]

Perhaps it is incorrect to say that Christianity (and to a certain extent Islam as well) was the cause of the Crusades. Instead, it might be better to say that Christianity was used to justify the Crusades.

Decessus

THAT's IT!!!!

HE GETS IT!

HE GETS IT!!

OH!!

YAY!!

I FINALLY MADE SOME SENSE!!!

That is EXACTLY correct!!

*dances*

If Christianity can be used to justify something as bad as the Crusades, don't you think that implies there is a fundamental flaw in the Christian belief system?

No, but it does mean "thou shalt not kill" can be warped by greedy men into "Thou shalt kill when thou wilt."

What I meant by Christianity justifying the Crusades is that the pope said "God wills it!" When in fact Man wills it. It is actually a form of blasphomey.

It implies that there is a major flaw in humanity.

[QUOTE="Dracargen"][QUOTE="Donkey_Puncher"]

That's one commandment, not ten. Again.....answer my question.

Decessus

You obviously do not understand Christianity.

You cannot pick one commandment to not follow and follow all the others.

Unless, of course, God deemed it no longer necessary.;)

Jesus also added to the Ten Commandments. If you hate somebody, then that is equivalent to murder. If you lust for a woman when you already are engaging in a relationship, then that is equivalent to adultery. Technically, the Ten Commandments from the OT do not matter as much as the Commandments from Christ.

Earlier you said the pope is the figurehead of Christianity. That is wrong on as many levels as possible. Jesus is the figurehead of Christianity; Nobody else.

Until the Reformation, the Pope was the spiritual leader of Christianity.

See, some Christians (like me) read the bible as a literal rundown of what happened, whereas others (like you, I guess) don't interperet it literally. My question is, why would you write a non-fiction book if you didn't want it interpereted literally?thnickaman13

Maybe so people could find moral guidance for their lives and comfort in times of despair? And I know more about the Bible than the average person, and I don't see how people can take it so literally, given the contradictory statements it contains.

[QUOTE="Donkey_Puncher"]

That's one commandment, not ten. Again.....answer my question.

Dracargen

You obviously do not understand Christianity.

You cannot pick one commandment to not follow and follow all the others.

Unless, of course, God deemed it no longer necessary.;)

Jesus also added to the Ten Commandments. If you hate somebody, then that is equivalent to murder. If you lust for a woman when you already are engaging in a relationship, then that is equivalent to adultery. Technically, the Ten Commandments from the OT do not matter as much as the Commandments from Christ.

Earlier you said the pope is the figurehead of Christianity. That is wrong on as many levels as possible. Jesus is the figurehead of Christianity; Nobody else.

You might want to go tell the other couple hundred million christians that they're not supposed to follow the ten commandments then, thank God they have you.

[QUOTE="Dracargen"][QUOTE="Donkey_Puncher"]

That's one commandment, not ten. Again.....answer my question.

Decessus

You obviously do not understand Christianity.

You cannot pick one commandment to not follow and follow all the others.

Unless, of course, God deemed it no longer necessary.;)

Jesus also added to the Ten Commandments. If you hate somebody, then that is equivalent to murder. If you lust for a woman when you already are engaging in a relationship, then that is equivalent to adultery. Technically, the Ten Commandments from the OT do not matter as much as the Commandments from Christ.

Earlier you said the pope is the figurehead of Christianity. That is wrong on as many levels as possible. Jesus is the figurehead of Christianity; Nobody else.

Until the Reformation, the Pope was the spiritual leader of Christianity.

Uh-huh. How does that make him the figurehead of Christianity?