Umm... The question I am asking is when do you consider an ambryo to be alive? sentience is not gained from conception as much as you'd like to believe it is. I've asked you numerous times and you come back with insults and you're running away from it. You even attempted to use your 'zygote' theory to prove to me that what I was saying was false when we have been discussing exactly that for this entire thread. Give me a break.If I am to discuss something with someone, he/she should know something about the theme. You have proven you dont. Not worth to waste my time discussing a theme with someone who is ignorant on the subject.
curono
If murder is illegal, why isn't abortion?
This topic is locked from further discussion.
Because the kid wouldn't be able to live on it's own. The moment the fetish would be able to remain alive (with help)then abortion is illegal.
I did watch the video. As I've stated before I agree with abortion up to a certain point. An embryo that is not self concious is not alive, has no feelings, has no brain power, has nothign that would make it be called alive. If an embryo reacts that way at that stage of development then perhaps the stage of development at which a mother should be allowed to get an abortion should be moved back. But that still does not take away from the fact that an embryo is not sentient from conception. Once the sentianece, or personhood if you will, forms in that embryo at that pooint abortion should be illegal.[QUOTE="RAGINGxPONY"]
Ok regardless of what that doctor thinks/ says, if you watch the video which i just posted you will see that a 12 week old baby has feelings, and looks just like a small newborn baby.
Where is that doctor's proof, all i see is him saying something that he believes.
BumFluff122
Thank you for watching the video.
We don't know when the baby develops this so called "personhood" and i don't think there is an anwser. I think it's just a debatable thing. Like to me the baby developed it's "personhood" after the first couple of days, i know lots of people would disagree though.
If that's your argument then why isn't capital punishment illegal?[QUOTE="Unassigned"][QUOTE="megahaloman64"]
It's the same thing, only different circumstances.
megahaloman64
Most of the time it's your faullt your pregnant, why should another being of life die because of your mistake. If someone kills someone else, it's their fault, therefore they should suffer, big difference.
No difference at all.[QUOTE="RAGINGxPONY"]
[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]
Clearly your emotion feuled opinion is far more informed than that of a medical doctors likely unbiased opinion!
Pixel-Pirate
Uhhh, where did i say that? That doctor did not show any proof to back up his claim... I'm sure i could find some doctors that will disagree with that doctor.
Indeed he does not prove it but I am inclined to believe a man with a medical degree studying something for several decades has more knowledge on the subject than a guy who once saw a video that upset them and now hates abortions.
What i have posted is proof. You see a 12 week old baby that has, feelings, thinks for itself and looks just like a baby.Please watch the video and tell me that baby doesn't look scared or try toescape.Or you could just believe some quote from some doctor off the internet.
[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]
[QUOTE="RAGINGxPONY"]
Uhhh, where did i say that? That doctor did not show any proof to back up his claim... I'm sure i could find some doctors that will disagree with that doctor.
RAGINGxPONY
Indeed he does not prove it but I am inclined to believe a man with a medical degree studying something for several decades has more knowledge on the subject than a guy who once saw a video that upset them and now hates abortions.
Can you please show me this proof, all i saw was some doctor thinks you have to be past 28 weeks for you to become a person. I'm sure there are doctors who disagree with him.
What i have posted is proof. You see a 12 week old baby that has, feelings, thinks for itself and looks just like a baby.Please watch the video and tell me that baby doesn't look scared or try toescape.Or you could just believe some quote from some doctor off the internet.
the video does not show that the baby has feelings or thinks for itself. it only shows that the baby moves. how can i tell if it looks scared? i cant even see its face. i can only see an outline. for all i know, the mouth could have been open the whole time or it was shaken open by the movement. I dont doubt that it kicked, but that only shows that its nerves have started to operate.
I did watch the video. As I've stated before I agree with abortion up to a certain point. An embryo that is not self concious is not alive, has no feelings, has no brain power, has nothign that would make it be called alive. If an embryo reacts that way at that stage of development then perhaps the stage of development at which a mother should be allowed to get an abortion should be moved back. But that still does not take away from the fact that an embryo is not sentient from conception. Once the sentianece, or personhood if you will, forms in that embryo at that pooint abortion should be illegal.[QUOTE="BumFluff122"]
[QUOTE="RAGINGxPONY"]
Ok regardless of what that doctor thinks/ says, if you watch the video which i just posted you will see that a 12 week old baby has feelings, and looks just like a small newborn baby.
Where is that doctor's proof, all i see is him saying something that he believes.
RAGINGxPONY
Thank you for watching the video.
We don't know when the baby develops this so called "personhood" and i don't think there is an anwser. I think it's just a debatable thing. Like to me the baby developed it's "personhood" after the first couple of days, i know lots of people would disagree though.
I know we don't knwo. Thats where a lot of the debate on this subject comes from. At which point do we make it illegakl to perform abortions? I believe it has been pushed bacj a few times since it was first made into law. And I'm sure that it will get pushed back maybe a couple more times as we find out more about it.
I respectfully disagree...that bunch of cells is life and we should protect it.because abortion isn't murder. To murder that thing you are murdering has to be a sentient being. A bunch of cells in a womb does not a sentient being make.
BumFluff122
[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]
[QUOTE="RAGINGxPONY"]
Uhhh, where did i say that? That doctor did not show any proof to back up his claim... I'm sure i could find some doctors that will disagree with that doctor.
RAGINGxPONY
Indeed he does not prove it but I am inclined to believe a man with a medical degree studying something for several decades has more knowledge on the subject than a guy who once saw a video that upset them and now hates abortions.
What i have posted is proof. You see a 12 week old baby that has, feelings, thinks for itself and looks just like a baby.Please watch the video and tell me that baby doesn't look scared or try toescape.Or you could just believe some quote from some doctor off the internet.
That video is so old, visually degraded, and on top of that it's a film filming a screen (making it even harder to see) so I'm afraid I have to say that the abortion on the filmed TV screen looks like a greyish blur to me and I cannot make out any shapes, actions, etc in the video that is being filmed in that video.
But to echo another posters question, how can you tell the fetus is afraid? I have seen ultrasounds in person and I find it hard to believe you can gather much more than reactionary movements in that, not complex emotional stress on the fetuses face.
And I also find it hard to believe what an anti-abortion video tells me, considering it is biased to try and spin anything toward it's agenda.
But I have a question for you. What do you think should be the punishment for a woman who has an abortion? Do you support abortion for rape victims and people who willingly commit incest? If it was illegal would you be okay knowing the fact many innocent women would be killed or harmed (and likely the babies as well) with back alley abortions? Do you think making it illegal will stop all abortions?
I know thats alot of questions but I ask them in good faith.
[QUOTE="RAGINGxPONY"]
[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]
Indeed he does not prove it but I am inclined to believe a man with a medical degree studying something for several decades has more knowledge on the subject than a guy who once saw a video that upset them and now hates abortions.
bionicle_lover
Can you please show me this proof, all i saw was some doctor thinks you have to be past 28 weeks for you to become a person. I'm sure there are doctors who disagree with him.
What i have posted is proof. You see a 12 week old baby that has, feelings, thinks for itself and looks just like a baby.Please watch the video and tell me that baby doesn't look scared or try toescape.Or you could just believe some quote from some doctor off the internet.
the video does not show that the baby has feelings or thinks for itself. it only shows that the baby moves. how can i tell if it looks scared? i cant even see its face. i can only see an outline. for all i know, the mouth could have been open the whole time or it was shaken open by the movement. I dont doubt that it kicked, but that only shows that its nerves have started to operate.
I thought it was pretty clear. So you think it squirms all over the place for no reason. Opened it mouth for no reason? Heart starts to beat fast. All of these areHUMAN instincts. So obviously this baby has human instincts but is not a human righht? Alright you keep telling yourself that.
I understand you want to act like abortion is not that bad and your going to keep telling your self that "oh it's just a fetus not a baby, it has no feeling"
[QUOTE="BumFluff122"]I respectfully disagree...that bunch of cells is life and we should protect it. The definition of life is an object that is self sustaining that has biological processes that will eventually cease to exist. A clump of cells is not a self sustaining object. IT does not think. It does not breath. It can't live outside of it's confines.because abortion isn't murder. To murder that thing you are murdering has to be a sentient being. A bunch of cells in a womb does not a sentient being make.
CleanPlayer
[QUOTE="RAGINGxPONY"]
[QUOTE="Pixel-Pirate"]
Indeed he does not prove it but I am inclined to believe a man with a medical degree studying something for several decades has more knowledge on the subject than a guy who once saw a video that upset them and now hates abortions.
Pixel-Pirate
What i have posted is proof. You see a 12 week old baby that has, feelings, thinks for itself and looks just like a baby.Please watch the video and tell me that baby doesn't look scared or try toescape.Or you could just believe some quote from some doctor off the internet.
That video is so old, visually degraded, and on top of that it's a film filming a screen (making it even harder to see) so I'm afraid I have to say that the abortion on the filmed TV screen looks like a greyish blur to me and I cannot make out any shapes, actions, etc in the video that is being filmed in that video.
But to echo another posters question, how can you tell the fetus is afraid? I have seen ultrasounds in person and I find it hard to believe you can gather much more than reactionary movements in that, not complex emotional stress on the fetuses face.
And I also find it hard to believe what an anti-abortion video tells me, considering it is biased to try and spin anything toward it's agenda.
But I have a question for you. What do you think should be the punishment for a woman who has an abortion? Do you support abortion for rape victims and people who willingly commit incest? If it was illegal would you be okay knowing the fact many innocent women would be killed or harmed (and likely the babies as well) with back alley abortions? Do you think making it illegal will stop all abortions?
I know thats alot of questions but I ask them in good faith.
For one it's heart starts to beat extremley fast, that's a pretty good indication that it's scared. So you also think it's just squirming all over the place for no reason? Sure the video is hard to see but you can clearly see that that baby knows something is wrong.
If the mother's life is in danger i think abortion is perfectly fine. If the women is raped againi think an exception would need to be made. We don't know really how big of an impact it would have if abortion was illigeal, i highly doubt it would be as bad as some pro choice people try to say it would. Most women would probably be to scared to even do back alley abortions, i think the biggest problem would be alot more babies needing to be adopted.
And then the adoption centers would be overflowing and we'd have to give some babies away to people who would do nasty things to them and maybe even put some of them out of their misery, much as we do with dogs at the pound.For one it's heart starts to beat extremley fast, that's a pretty good indication that it's scared. So you also think it's just squirming all over the place for no reason? Sure the video is hard to see but you can clearly see that that baby knows something is wrong.
If the mother's life is in danger i think abortion is perfectly fine. If the women is raped againi think an exception would need to be made. We don't know really how big of an impact it would have if abortion was illigeal, i highly doubt it would be as bad as some pro choice people try to say it would. Most women would probably be to scared to even do back alley abortions, i think the biggest problem would be alot more babies needing to be adopted.
RAGINGxPONY
[QUOTE="bionicle_lover"]
[QUOTE="RAGINGxPONY"]
Can you please show me this proof, all i saw was some doctor thinks you have to be past 28 weeks for you to become a person. I'm sure there are doctors who disagree with him.
What i have posted is proof. You see a 12 week old baby that has, feelings, thinks for itself and looks just like a baby.Please watch the video and tell me that baby doesn't look scared or try toescape.Or you could just believe some quote from some doctor off the internet.
RAGINGxPONY
the video does not show that the baby has feelings or thinks for itself. it only shows that the baby moves. how can i tell if it looks scared? i cant even see its face. i can only see an outline. for all i know, the mouth could have been open the whole time or it was shaken open by the movement. I dont doubt that it kicked, but that only shows that its nerves have started to operate.
I thought it was pretty clear. So you think it squirms all over the place for no reason. Opened it mouth for no reason? Heart starts to beat fast. All of these areHUMAN instincts. So obviously this baby has human instincts but is not a human righht? Alright you keep telling yourself that.
I understand you want to act like abortion is not that bad and your going to keep telling your self that "oh it's just a fetus not a baby, it has no feeling"
it can do all that without being concious or have sentience. Maybe it has all the developing tools to to be a human. It hearts pump because of a natural reaction to some chemicals being pumped in its body? or maybe it doesnt know what the stimulus is so it mistakes it to make its heart pump faster? Maybe the reflex is a simple defense mechanism put in place before it can control its own actions?
Even afterall this, i have done some thinking. and whether it is just a fetus or not, i am still for the choice to abort. I do not believe it has sentience. so as long as it continues to grow and live, i see it as only just another part of the woman as it feeds off the woman's nutrients. until it is capable of living on its own on the outside (maybe with some life support machines), i feel aborting it is fine and up to the mother.
you can see what you see and interpret it to what you want, but until we can somehow Test the fetus, i see no more reason to believe what i do than to believe what you do.
one more thing about hearts beating fast.... ill admit this is just a complete out of nowhere guess so take it for what its worth (probably near nothing) but i've had my heart beat fast for many reasons. Excitement, fear, yes. but also exercise, overexerting myself, lack of oxygen, at times seemingly out of nowhere (yes weird, i know, but oncei was practicing shooting some hoops and out of nowhere my heart started beating like crazy. i was barely exercising too.)
As you probably know..a human being is also just a collection of cells..so what is your point?A collection of cells isn't a person, so you can't define it as murder.
ProudLarry
Uninformed Gamespot users are uninformed. Seriously, how many people posting their "opinions" in this thread are in middle school, high school, or college?
Until you've personally delivered someone else's child or witnessed the birth of your own, your "opinion" is null and void. Not only that, but having even a simple understanding of the definition of life, as well as, a thorough understanding of the complexities of human development are required to even enter into this debate.
When a child is "alive" is determined by the very definition of life as established by scientific observation, not by what some 21 y/oSunday Christian believes, becausehe or she saw a video where clearly a child demonstrated feelings at whatever trimester, because it smiled while the mother was listening to Michael Jackson.
Homo Sapiens are complex creatures. Stop trying to dumb them or their development down with religion, uneducated opinions, and heresay.
And then the adoption centers would be overflowing and we'd have to give some babies away to people who would do nasty things to them and maybe even put some of them out of their misery, much as we do with dogs at the pound.[QUOTE="RAGINGxPONY"]
For one it's heart starts to beat extremley fast, that's a pretty good indication that it's scared. So you also think it's just squirming all over the place for no reason? Sure the video is hard to see but you can clearly see that that baby knows something is wrong.
If the mother's life is in danger i think abortion is perfectly fine. If the women is raped againi think an exception would need to be made. We don't know really how big of an impact it would have if abortion was illigeal, i highly doubt it would be as bad as some pro choice people try to say it would. Most women would probably be to scared to even do back alley abortions, i think the biggest problem would be alot more babies needing to be adopted.
BumFluff122
However i think if abortions we're illigeal people would be more careful when having sex. Also even if we had to, the government could open up some sort of facility for all the children waiting to be adopted. Maybe they would have to live there for there whole child hood but, thatwould be better than killing them.
Umm... The question I am asking is when do you consider an ambryo to be alive? sentience is not gained from conception as much as you'd like to believe it is. I've asked you numerous times and you come back with insults and you're running away from it. You even attempted to use your 'zygote' theory to prove to me that what I was saying was false when we have been discussing exactly that for this entire thread. Give me a break. Ok, seems you need that answer bad enough to ask it even if you dont have the grounds to deal with it. Yes. We are talking about something with life. It is tricky to ask when should it be considered alive, because it started from living organisms and living matter. It has always been alive, even before conception, but going to sperm is a human, is something blatantly unsustainable. Conception shouldn be what marks the begining of a newly formed human, because, by any standard you could say that it is a discrete human being. It habits on symbiosis and cant sustain by itself. My best option would be that when a phoetus has a brain and own pulse should be considered as a new human being. When it has AT LEAST a humanoid form you could consider that human, but how can you name something a human when you cant trace it as human?[QUOTE="curono"]
If I am to discuss something with someone, he/she should know something about the theme. You have proven you dont. Not worth to waste my time discussing a theme with someone who is ignorant on the subject.
BumFluff122
Uninformed Gamespot users are uninformed. Seriously, how many people posting their "opinions" in this thread are in middle school, high school, or college?
Until you've personally delivered someone else's child or witnessed the birth of your own, your "opinion" is null and void. Not only that, but having even a simple understanding of the definition of life, as well as, a thorough understanding of the complexities of human development are required to even enter into this debate.
When a child is "alive" is determined by the very definition of life as established by scientific observation, not by what some 21 y/oSunday Christian believes, becausehe or she saw a video where clearly a child demonstrated feelings at whatever trimester, because it smiled while the mother was listening to Michael Jackson.
Homo Sapiens are complex creatures. Stop trying to dumb them or their development down with religion, uneducated opinions, and heresay.
drj077
So your for or against abortions?
because abortion isn't murder. To murder that thing you are murdering has to be a sentient being. A bunch of cells in a womb does not a sentient being make.
BumFluff122
FAIL! Are you guy or a woman? If you see someone else is pregnant, can you say that she's having a bunch of cell? of course not.. You would rather say she's having a baby inside her womb.... Dude.. read more 4th grade books up to 6th grade... Tsk tsk tsk.. you can not beat 5th grader..... back on the topic.. It is absolutely illegal!!!! If in this world or in other countries that abortion is legal, in God's eyes is illegal.. Your chances in Hell is very huge dude....
And then the adoption centers would be overflowing and we'd have to give some babies away to people who would do nasty things to them and maybe even put some of them out of their misery, much as we do with dogs at the pound.[QUOTE="BumFluff122"]
[QUOTE="RAGINGxPONY"]
For one it's heart starts to beat extremley fast, that's a pretty good indication that it's scared. So you also think it's just squirming all over the place for no reason? Sure the video is hard to see but you can clearly see that that baby knows something is wrong.
If the mother's life is in danger i think abortion is perfectly fine. If the women is raped againi think an exception would need to be made. We don't know really how big of an impact it would have if abortion was illigeal, i highly doubt it would be as bad as some pro choice people try to say it would. Most women would probably be to scared to even do back alley abortions, i think the biggest problem would be alot more babies needing to be adopted.
RAGINGxPONY
However i think if abortions we're illigeal people would be more careful when having sex. Also even if we had to, the government could open up some sort of facility for all the children waiting to be adopted. Maybe they would have to live there for there whole child hood but, thatwould be better than killing them.
I really don't think you understand what you've just said. It's pretty obvious that making something illegal doesn't stop people from doing it. In fact, sometimes the quite the opposite is true. Plus, there used to be and probably still are orphanages in this country. Living conditions were and are often deplorable. These same children may end up abusive foster families. Trust me, for many of those children having never been born would likely been a better option.
[QUOTE="drj077"]
Uninformed Gamespot users are uninformed. Seriously, how many people posting their "opinions" in this thread are in middle school, high school, or college?
Until you've personally delivered someone else's child or witnessed the birth of your own, your "opinion" is null and void. Not only that, but having even a simple understanding of the definition of life, as well as, a thorough understanding of the complexities of human development are required to even enter into this debate.
When a child is "alive" is determined by the very definition of life as established by scientific observation, not by what some 21 y/oSunday Christian believes, becausehe or she saw a video where clearly a child demonstrated feelings at whatever trimester, because it smiled while the mother was listening to Michael Jackson.
Homo Sapiens are complex creatures. Stop trying to dumb them or their development down with religion, uneducated opinions, and heresay.
RAGINGxPONY
So your for or against abortions?
As a physician, I'm for it, because the it gives women the option to undergo a sterile and safe procedure, instead of an unsafe procedure that could lead to death or morbidity. I'm for a woman choosing how to or not to bring her own child into this world. Her choice is between her and the father. I have no say and neither do you.
[QUOTE="drj077"]
Uninformed Gamespot users are uninformed. Seriously, how many people posting their "opinions" in this thread are in middle school, high school, or college?
Until you've personally delivered someone else's child or witnessed the birth of your own, your "opinion" is null and void. Not only that, but having even a simple understanding of the definition of life, as well as, a thorough understanding of the complexities of human development are required to even enter into this debate.
When a child is "alive" is determined by the very definition of life as established by scientific observation, not by what some 21 y/oSunday Christian believes, becausehe or she saw a video where clearly a child demonstrated feelings at whatever trimester, because it smiled while the mother was listening to Michael Jackson.
Homo Sapiens are complex creatures. Stop trying to dumb them or their development down with religion, uneducated opinions, and heresay.
Lilyanne46
Uninformed or not, all opinions count.
When uninformed, they have no proof to back it up, but that doesn't mean it's not valid. :?
Incorrect. Not all opinions count. To believe that is illogical. All voices count, but not the thoughts that echo the voices.
[QUOTE="RAGINGxPONY"]
[QUOTE="BumFluff122"]And then the adoption centers would be overflowing and we'd have to give some babies away to people who would do nasty things to them and maybe even put some of them out of their misery, much as we do with dogs at the pound.
drj077
However i think if abortions we're illigeal people would be more careful when having sex. Also even if we had to, the government could open up some sort of facility for all the children waiting to be adopted. Maybe they would have to live there for there whole child hood but, thatwould be better than killing them.
I really don't think you understand what you've just said. It's pretty obvious that making something illegal doesn't stop people from doing it. In fact, sometimes the quite the opposite is true. Plus, there used to be and probably still are orphanages in this country. Living conditions were and are often deplorable. These same children may end up abusive foster families. Trust me, for many of those children having never been born would likely been a better option.
Seriously, i doubt that many women would go for these "back alley abortions" Pro choice people just want people to think that lots of women would die once abortion is illigeal, an i highly doubt it would be that bad. Lots of kids are adopted every day, i know a couple of foster kids and there happy. Why would this change because abortion become illigeal. I realize there would be alot more kids needing foster homes, andwe probably won't be able to find them all foster homes, so the government would set up some facilities that would take care of these kids until there adults.
[QUOTE="BumFluff122"]
because abortion isn't murder. To murder that thing you are murdering has to be a sentient being. A bunch of cells in a womb does not a sentient being make.
CaptRex
FAIL! Are you guy or a woman? If you see someone else is pregnant, can you say that she's having a bunch of cell? of course not.. You would rather say she's having a baby inside her womb.... Dude.. read more 4th grade books up to 6th grade... Tsk tsk tsk.. you can not beat 5th grader..... back on the topic.. It is absolutely illegal!!!! If in this world or in other countries that abortion is legal, in God's eyes is illegal.. Your chances in Hell is very huge dude....
So a religious thinking should govern that?? What if I have a religious thought? I must abide by your religious ideas?Ok, seems you need that answer bad enough to ask it even if you dont have the grounds to deal with it. Yes. We are talking about something with life. It is tricky to ask when should it be considered alive, because it started from living organisms and living matter. It has always been alive, even before conception, but going to sperm is a human, is something blatantly unsustainable. Conception shouldn be what marks the begining of a newly formed human, because, by any standard you could say that it is a discrete human being. It habits on symbiosis and cant sustain by itself. My best option would be that when a phoetus has a brain and own pulse should be considered as a new human being. When it has AT LEAST a humanoid form you could consider that human, but how can you name something a human when you cant trace it as human?curonoSir you are continuing to insult my intelligence post after post after post. Please stop. Yes it is difficult. Why would you consider then, by your own definition, if soemthing is not conidered human and the only things that you would consider alive are it's constituents why abortion before a specific time period should be illegal? If that human is not alive, it has no brain, it has no pulse, etc... why would you call the destruction of the cells that make up this human to be murder?
[QUOTE="drj077"]
[QUOTE="RAGINGxPONY"]
However i think if abortions we're illigeal people would be more careful when having sex. Also even if we had to, the government could open up some sort of facility for all the children waiting to be adopted. Maybe they would have to live there for there whole child hood but, thatwould be better than killing them.
RAGINGxPONY
I really don't think you understand what you've just said. It's pretty obvious that making something illegal doesn't stop people from doing it. In fact, sometimes the quite the opposite is true. Plus, there used to be and probably still are orphanages in this country. Living conditions were and are often deplorable. These same children may end up abusive foster families. Trust me, for many of those children having never been born would likely been a better option.
Seriously, i doubt that many women would go for these "back alley abortions" Pro choice people just want people to think that lots of women would die once abortion is illigeal, an i highly doubt it would be that bad. Lots of kids are adopted every day, i know a couple of foster kids and there happy. Why would this change because abortion become illigeal. I realize there would be alot more kids needing foster homes, andwe probably won't be able to find them all foster homes, so the government would set up some facilities that would take care of these kids until there adults.
You quite honestly have no idea what you're talking about. Women have back alley abortions even now and many end up with infections, sepsis, and death.Ibelieveyou have no idea what the medical ramifications are of making abortion illegal would be in this country.
Also, you seem to think that money is somehow infinite in this country.The tens to hundredsof thousands of children needing a "government-run facility" would cost all of us billions of dollars. In fact, I bet it would cost more than running the American prison system.
Sir you are continuing to insult my intelligence post after post after post. Please stop. Yes it is difficult. Why would you consider then, by your own definition, if soemthing is not conidered human and the only things that you would consider alive are it's constituents why abortion before a specific time period should be illegal? If that human is not alive, it has no brain, it has no pulse, etc... why would you call the destruction of the cells that make up this human to be murder? I do not and never had implied that abortion should be banned or illegal. I do not and never had called abortion murder. Learn to read. You insult your and my intelligence.[QUOTE="curono"] Ok, seems you need that answer bad enough to ask it even if you dont have the grounds to deal with it. Yes. We are talking about something with life. It is tricky to ask when should it be considered alive, because it started from living organisms and living matter. It has always been alive, even before conception, but going to sperm is a human, is something blatantly unsustainable. Conception shouldn be what marks the begining of a newly formed human, because, by any standard you could say that it is a discrete human being. It habits on symbiosis and cant sustain by itself. My best option would be that when a phoetus has a brain and own pulse should be considered as a new human being. When it has AT LEAST a humanoid form you could consider that human, but how can you name something a human when you cant trace it as human?BumFluff122
[QUOTE="CleanPlayer"][QUOTE="BumFluff122"]
because abortion isn't murder. To murder that thing you are murdering has to be a sentient being. A bunch of cells in a womb does not a sentient being make.
I respectfully disagree...that bunch of cells is life and we should protect it. The definition of life is an object that is self sustaining that has biological processes that will eventually cease to exist. A clump of cells is not a self sustaining object. IT does not think. It does not breath. It can't live outside of it's confines. That is not the definition of life. That is your own interpretation of it. There are many humans that can not care for themselves, but I would feel hard pressed to say they are not "alive" or "human".[QUOTE="BumFluff122"]Sir you are continuing to insult my intelligence post after post after post. Please stop. Yes it is difficult. Why would you consider then, by your own definition, if soemthing is not conidered human and the only things that you would consider alive are it's constituents why abortion before a specific time period should be illegal? If that human is not alive, it has no brain, it has no pulse, etc... why would you call the destruction of the cells that make up this human to be murder? I do not and never had implied that abortion should be banned or illegal. I do not and never had called abortion murder. Learn to read. You insult your and my intelligence.You are arguing against me why then?[QUOTE="curono"] Ok, seems you need that answer bad enough to ask it even if you dont have the grounds to deal with it. Yes. We are talking about something with life. It is tricky to ask when should it be considered alive, because it started from living organisms and living matter. It has always been alive, even before conception, but going to sperm is a human, is something blatantly unsustainable. Conception shouldn be what marks the begining of a newly formed human, because, by any standard you could say that it is a discrete human being. It habits on symbiosis and cant sustain by itself. My best option would be that when a phoetus has a brain and own pulse should be considered as a new human being. When it has AT LEAST a humanoid form you could consider that human, but how can you name something a human when you cant trace it as human?curono
And I'm about done talkign to you. I've been keeping back form going all out on you because of yoru completely rediculous posts. First we were arguing about abortion then you brought up zygotes and attempted to use that as proof that a childs life begins from birth now you are saying somethign completely different. Perhaps you should realize where you stand on the subject before getting into arguments about it.
[QUOTE="BumFluff122"]
because abortion isn't murder. To murder that thing you are murdering has to be a sentient being. A bunch of cells in a womb does not a sentient being make.
CaptRex
FAIL! Are you guy or a woman? If you see someone else is pregnant, can you say that she's having a bunch of cell? of course not.. You would rather say she's having a baby inside her womb.... Dude.. read more 4th grade books up to 6th grade... Tsk tsk tsk.. you can not beat 5th grader..... back on the topic.. It is absolutely illegal!!!! If in this world or in other countries that abortion is legal, in God's eyes is illegal.. Your chances in Hell is very huge dude....
Good thing he doesn't believe in hell, huh?
[QUOTE="RAGINGxPONY"]
[QUOTE="drj077"]
I really don't think you understand what you've just said. It's pretty obvious that making something illegal doesn't stop people from doing it. In fact, sometimes the quite the opposite is true. Plus, there used to be and probably still are orphanages in this country. Living conditions were and are often deplorable. These same children may end up abusive foster families. Trust me, for many of those children having never been born would likely been a better option.
drj077
Seriously, i doubt that many women would go for these "back alley abortions" Pro choice people just want people to think that lots of women would die once abortion is illigeal, an i highly doubt it would be that bad. Lots of kids are adopted every day, i know a couple of foster kids and there happy. Why would this change because abortion become illigeal. I realize there would be alot more kids needing foster homes, andwe probably won't be able to find them all foster homes, so the government would set up some facilities that would take care of these kids until there adults.
You quite honestly have no idea what you're talking about. Women have back alley abortions even now and many end up with infections, sepsis, and death.Ibelieveyou have no idea what the medical ramifications are of making abortion illegal would be in this country.
Also, you seem to think that money is somehow infinite in this country.The tens to hundredsof thousands of children needing a "government-run facility" would cost all of us billions of dollars. In fact, I bet it would cost more than running the American prison system.
Honestly buddy i don't think you know what you are talking about. Really both of us are just using speculation because no one knows what would happen if abortions we're illigeal. Please stop acting like you are smarter than me because you are not.
Funny because how much money do we spend in Afghanastain and Iraq right now? More than enough to run these facilities. If they have the money for that i'm sure they would have the money for these facilities which, probably wouldn't even be 1/1000 of what those wars cost.
Your acting like all foster kids are bad and criminals. I'm suresome of them would rebel but that is just a normal teenager, but like i said all the foster kids i know are nice people who are very happy,
So I wonder if you know what you are talking about.
[QUOTE="CaptRex"]
[QUOTE="BumFluff122"]
because abortion isn't murder. To murder that thing you are murdering has to be a sentient being. A bunch of cells in a womb does not a sentient being make.
Pixel-Pirate
FAIL! Are you guy or a woman? If you see someone else is pregnant, can you say that she's having a bunch of cell? of course not.. You would rather say she's having a baby inside her womb.... Dude.. read more 4th grade books up to 6th grade... Tsk tsk tsk.. you can not beat 5th grader..... back on the topic.. It is absolutely illegal!!!! If in this world or in other countries that abortion is legal, in God's eyes is illegal.. Your chances in Hell is very huge dude....
Good thing he doesn't believe in hell, huh?
Wow I completely missed this post lol. From the looks of it he doesn't understand what an atheist is.
because abortion isn't murder. To murder that thing you are murdering has to be a sentient being. A bunch of cells in a womb does not a sentient being make.
BumFluff122
I'm going to have to disagree with you, actually a lot of people would disagree with you.
You are arguing against me why then?[QUOTE="curono"] I do not and never had implied that abortion should be banned or illegal. I do not and never had called abortion murder. Learn to read. You insult your and my intelligence.BumFluff122
What I was pointing, and you didn seem to notice was that you regarded a LIFE (a discreteliving entity) and alive (a sate of an entity) as the same thing; which are not. And afterwards, that you confused semen with sperm; which are not.
And afterwards I used your definition of "biologically self - sustainable" to mark that a zygote is not a LIFE, yet it was alive. And you got confused with your own terms, and after all thought that I was against abortion.
Your bad. Completely
In your own words, you insult your intelligence.
[QUOTE="BumFluff122"]The definition of life is an object that is self sustaining that has biological processes that will eventually cease to exist. A clump of cells is not a self sustaining object. IT does not think. It does not breath. It can't live outside of it's confines. That is not the definition of life. That is your own interpretation of it. There are many humans that can not care for themselves, but I would feel hard pressed to say they are not "alive" or "human".[QUOTE="CleanPlayer"]I respectfully disagree...that bunch of cells is life and we should protect it. sonicare
Biology
Since there is no unequivocal definition of life, the current understanding is descriptive, where life is a 'characteristic' of organisms that exhibit all or most of the following phenomena:
Homeostasis: Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state; for example, electrolyte concentration or sweating to reduce temperature.
Organization: Being structurally composed of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.
Metabolism: Transformation of energy by converting chemicals and energy into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.
Growth: Maintenance of a higher rate of anabolism than catabolism. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter. Adaptation: The ability to change over a period of time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity as well as the composition of metabolized substances, and external factors present.
Response to stimuli: A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism to external chemicals, to complex reactions involving all the senses of multicellular organisms. A response is often expressed by motion, for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun (phototropism) and by chemotaxis.
Reproduction: The ability to produce new individual organisms, either asexually from a single parent organism, or sexually from two parent organisms.
A fetus, can not sustain homeostasis, metabolism, or adaptation while in the womb without the nutrients and environment delivered by the mother. It is not capable of reproduction either, but the most important points are the former. A fetus isbest definedas a parasitic organism in an immune privileged site.
[QUOTE="BumFluff122"]
because abortion isn't murder. To murder that thing you are murdering has to be a sentient being. A bunch of cells in a womb does not a sentient being make.
dream431ca
I'm going to have to disagree with you, actually a lot of people would disagree with you.
You can go ahead and disagree with me all you want but sentience is not gained by a bunch of cell clumping together to eventually form a full human. murder is the killing of a sentient human. Not somethign that will eventually become a sentient human.I believe the argument to support abortion based on the fact that a fetus is not something living or worthwhile is completey ludicrous. It just sounds stupid to see people trying to make up some completely arbitrary definition as to when life begins. "Not at 23 weeks, but at 23 weeks and 1 hour and 43 seconds, etc., etc." That's just plain stupid.Or that it's just a clump of cells - try using that statement on any women who's ever had a miscarriage and be prepared to have your nose broken.
The real argument should be whether or not abortion should be permissible. Some people call it murder, but I dont think it can be classified as that.Are we murdering people with capital punishment? Are we murdering people with end of life decisions? Aborting a fetus is not the same as murdering a human being. Pregnancy is a very special and unique condition. As such, it creates a very special and unique dilemna -> What is more important? The right of a woman to her body or the right of a fetus/unborn child to theirs? I dont have the answer to that. While I may have my own personal views on the morality and ethics of it, they are my personal views. I dont believe I have the right to enforce them upon others. And also, because I dont have the answer,I believe the wisest thing would be to let each women decide. It's a tough choice and not without serious consequence.
But I think trying to make the argument by devaluing life is not a wise move. The argument is about rights, not about what consitutes life.
[QUOTE="BumFluff122"]I respectfully disagree...that bunch of cells is life and we should protect it. We should protect it above the interests of the woman? No. You see, pretty much any anti-choice argument can be traced back to punishing women for sex.because abortion isn't murder. To murder that thing you are murdering has to be a sentient being. A bunch of cells in a womb does not a sentient being make.
CleanPlayer
I realize there would be alot more kids needing foster homes, andwe probably won't be able to find them all foster homes, so the government would set up some facilities that would take care of these kids until there adults.
RAGINGxPONY
The government? I realize money might not be being spent terribly well at this point, but the government can't magically take care of a few more million helpless children like it's no big deal. You want the kids to live so badly? YOU pay for them. I don't want my tax dollars, which I work hard to pay, going towards supporting kids that are here because someone forced a woman to do something with her body that she didn't want to do.I'm always amazed by people who INSIST we criminalize abortion, then want nothing to do with the baby once it's born. You care about that life so much? Prove it and take care of it.
[QUOTE="drj077"]
[QUOTE="RAGINGxPONY"]
Seriously, i doubt that many women would go for these "back alley abortions" Pro choice people just want people to think that lots of women would die once abortion is illigeal, an i highly doubt it would be that bad. Lots of kids are adopted every day, i know a couple of foster kids and there happy. Why would this change because abortion become illigeal. I realize there would be alot more kids needing foster homes, andwe probably won't be able to find them all foster homes, so the government would set up some facilities that would take care of these kids until there adults.
RAGINGxPONY
You quite honestly have no idea what you're talking about. Women have back alley abortions even now and many end up with infections, sepsis, and death.Ibelieveyou have no idea what the medical ramifications are of making abortion illegal would be in this country.
Also, you seem to think that money is somehow infinite in this country.The tens to hundredsof thousands of children needing a "government-run facility" would cost all of us billions of dollars. In fact, I bet it would cost more than running the American prison system.
Honestly buddy i don't think you know what you are talking about. Really both of us are just using speculation because no one knows what would happen if abortions we're illigeal. Please stop acting like you are smarter than me because you are not.
Funny because how much money do we spend in Afghanastain and Iraq right now? More than enough to run these facilities. If they have the money for that i'm sure they would have the money for these facilities which, probably wouldn't even be 1/1000 of what those wars cost.
Your acting like all foster kids are bad and criminals. I'm suresome of them would rebel but that is just a normal teenager, but like i said all the foster kids i know are nice people who are very happy,
So I wonder if you know what you are talking about.
No, not all foster kids are bad and criminals. What you're describing is likely sampling bias.
What's going on in Iraq and Afghanistan is far beyond a simple financial problem. It's too simplistic to look at is as though if one wasn't happening, then we'd have funding for another thing. In fact, that's how someone who doesn't have to deal with adult situations would look at that problem.
As for intelligence, that's very debatable. Trust me.
You are arguing against me why then?[QUOTE="BumFluff122"]
[QUOTE="curono"] I do not and never had implied that abortion should be banned or illegal. I do not and never had called abortion murder. Learn to read. You insult your and my intelligence.curono
What I was pointing, and you didn seem to notice was that you regarded a LIFE (a discreteliving entity) and alive (a sate of an entity) as the same thing; which are not. And afterwards, that you confused semen with sperm; which are not.
And afterwards I used your definition of "biologically self - sustainable" to mark that a zygote is not a LIFE, yet it was alive. And you got confused with your own terms, and after all thought that I was against abortion.
Your bad. Completely
In your own words, you insult your intelligence.
since when can a zygote exist outside of the wall in which it is formed? I took that term directly off of dictionary.com by the way. There is much more to the definition if you'd liek to go look yourself. life and alive are not mutually exclusive. what would you call the action the a LIFE is doing? Lifing? Being alife? They are different versiosn of the same thing. Anyways I'm done with you. I admitted that I made some errors in my posts. And yet you continue to try and instigate something by insult after insult. Here you are trying to argue semantics with me when you don't even understand the meanings of the words.Please Log In to post.
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