Is God avoiding us?

how quickly does your thought change when i mention my age, do i have to be 30 or 40yearoldto have an intelligent conversation?dhend3030

I've yet to make any mention of your age.

i did not saythat others were wrong "Dear" i mearly mention that i was right in standing up for Jesus. Not I AM right in my religion.dhend3030

I call everyone dear. But because you singled it out, I am now forced to refer to you as a special pet name from now on.

Hence forth apprentice, you shall be referred to as dhendburger. Be proud of your new title.

I know what you mean as well, I'm just having a bit of fun. Playing the militant atheist, how am I doing? XD

[QUOTE="Clubsport_R8"]more to the point does god exist?leeveeu

Yes, a superior being that we call God does exist. The rules that reign over the Universe (and planet Earth too) are too "well thought" so to speak to be entirely random.

some would say that getting a lucky lottery number is too improbable to be random, yet it is.

[QUOTE="leeveeu"]

[QUOTE="Clubsport_R8"]more to the point does god exist?Hewkii

Yes, a superior being that we call God does exist. The rules that reign over the Universe (and planet Earth too) are too "well thought" so to speak to be entirely random.

some would say that getting a lucky lottery number is too improbable to be random, yet it is.

Surely you cannot compare EVERYTHING (the Universe and beyond) with guessing a random number or a series of random numbers.

Here's what I'm talking about: Golden Ratio

Conclusion: Things that can best be described as an "universal law" cannot be random.

Surely you cannot compare EVERYTHING (the Universe and beyond) with guessing a random number or a series of random numbers.

Here's what I'm talking about: Golden Ratio

Conclusion: Things that can best be described as an "universal law" cannot be random.

leeveeu

and? I could say everything can be measured in meters, hence God made the Meter.

[QUOTE="leeveeu"]

Surely you cannot compare EVERYTHING (the Universe and beyond) with guessing a random number or a series of random numbers.

Here's what I'm talking about: Golden Ratio

Conclusion: Things that can best be described as an "universal law" cannot be random.

Hewkii

and? I could say everything can be measured in meters, hence God made the Meter.

Have you read the article? The Golden Ratio is found everywhere, even in nature: "he found the golden ratio expressed in the arrangement of branches along the stems of plants, and of veins in leaves. He extended his research to the skeletons of animals and the branchings of their veins and nerves, to the proportions of chemical compounds and the geometry of crystals, as well as the use of proportion in artistic endeavors. In these phenomena he saw the golden ratio operating as a universal law"

It's not about the metric system or the anglo saxon system, it's about a "divine" proportion that can be found everywhere.

[QUOTE="Hewkii"][QUOTE="leeveeu"]

Surely you cannot compare EVERYTHING (the Universe and beyond) with guessing a random number or a series of random numbers.

Here's what I'm talking about: Golden Ratio

Conclusion: Things that can best be described as an "universal law" cannot be random.

leeveeu

and? I could say everything can be measured in meters, hence God made the Meter.

Have you read the article? The Golden Ratio is found everywhere, even in nature: "he found the golden ratio expressed in the arrangement of branches along the stems of plants, and of veins in leaves. He extended his research to the skeletons of animals and the branchings of their veins and nerves, to the proportions of chemical compounds and the geometry of crystals, as well as the use of proportion in artistic endeavors. In these phenomena he saw the golden ratio operating as a universal law"

It's not about the metric system or the anglo saxon system, it's about a "divine" proportion that can be found everywhere.

not everywhere. at the bottom.

not everywhere. at the bottom.

Hewkii

Surely, like in all things, controversy will arise but I think I've made my point.

[QUOTE="Hewkii"]

not everywhere. at the bottom.

leeveeu

Surely, like in all things, controversy will arise but I think I've made my point.

not at all. not everything follows this ratio, hence there are 2 solutions: either it is coincidence, or whatever puts it there only did so in some things.

[QUOTE="leeveeu"][QUOTE="Hewkii"]

not everywhere. at the bottom.

Hewkii

Surely, like in all things, controversy will arise but I think I've made my point.

not at all. not everything follows this ratio, hence there are 2 solutions: either it is coincidence, or whatever puts it there only did so in some things.

I think I've made my point pretty good.

Coincidence? On such a great scale? Yeah, having an irrational number pop out on such numerous occasions can be a coincidence. And WW2 never happened. Sorry for the sarcasm but coincidence in this case is so close to being impossible we have to rule it out.

Whatever put it there did it to some things that we know of and perhaps to some that we do not know of. So, there is "something" that put it there.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

Whatever put it there did it to some things that we know of and perhaps to some that we do not know of. So, there is "something" that put it there.

leeveeu

but if it meant to be a golden ratio, then why only some things?

[QUOTE="Hewkii"][QUOTE="leeveeu"][QUOTE="Hewkii"]

not everywhere. at the bottom.

leeveeu

Surely, like in all things, controversy will arise but I think I've made my point.

not at all. not everything follows this ratio, hence there are 2 solutions: either it is coincidence, or whatever puts it there only did so in some things.

I think I've made my point pretty good.

Coincidence? On such a great scale? Yeah, having an irrational number pop out on such numerous occasions can be a coincidence. And WW2 never happened. Sorry for the sarcasm but coincidence in this case is so close to being impossible we have to rule it out.

Whatever put it there did it to some things that we know of and perhaps to some that we do not know of. So, there is "something" that put it there.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

...Not neccesarly like anythign else it simply can be considered a law or a value.. If we didn't have set rules we could never measure the speed of light, equations for gravity, magnitisim etc etc.

And I hate to tell you but that is a logical fallacy of reasoning.. You think some how your point leads tot he conclusion but this is begging the question, and is no better then saying god exists because realitiy is so pretty/complex/perfect etc etc.

...Not neccesarly like anythign else it simply can be considered a law or a value.. If we didn't have set rules we could never measure the speed of light, equations for gravity, magnitisim etc etc.

And I hate to tell you but that is a logical fallacy of reasoning.. You think some how your point leads tot he conclusion but this is begging the question, and is no better then saying god exists because realitiy is so pretty/complex/perfect etc etc.

sSubZerOo

No. The question that arose at some point in this topic was whether God exists or not. I cannot put it simpler than this, so here goes:

Because there is an order in the Universe that can be found even in the things that surround us, petty humans (the golden ratio is an example, don't over quote it), and because this order is too strict to be a series of random events or things that "just happened"; there must be a superior entity that has created and applied these rules, whom we mostly refer to as God.

Where's the flaw in this?

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

...Not neccesarly like anythign else it simply can be considered a law or a value.. If we didn't have set rules we could never measure the speed of light, equations for gravity, magnitisim etc etc.

And I hate to tell you but that is a logical fallacy of reasoning.. You think some how your point leads tot he conclusion but this is begging the question, and is no better then saying god exists because realitiy is so pretty/complex/perfect etc etc.

leeveeu

No. The question that arose at some point in this topic was whether God exists or not. I cannot put it simpler than this, so here goes:

Because there is an order in the Universe that can be found even in the things that surround us, petty humans (the golden ratio is an example, don't over quote it), and because this order is too strict to be a series of random events or things that "just happened"; there must be a superior entity that has created and applied these rules, whom we mostly refer to as God.

Where's the flaw in this?

There is no premise what so ever.. Why is it so perfect, what is perfect, what is complexity? And you fail to realize we have 350- 500 million galaxies so far discovered.. Each of those galaxies have a possible 10 billion stars in them.. Each star could have dozens of planets in them not to mention the uncountable amount of moons around the planets.. From this amount alone it certainly seems feasiable that life could start on the lowest of probabilies because the sheer amount of enviroments out there that defy numbers..

this is a logical fallacy.. You have made a statement saying Life is too complex and concluded thus god exists.. You missed the entire premise, why is life too complex because you think it is? Have we ever seen anything else, no.. Just becuase we can't understand it all right now means nothing, and is another cheap excuse.. I am not saying god exists or doesn't exist, but you can't prove it wth this logical crap that does not make any sense and would be thrown out in any kind of philosophical argument or debate.

There is no premise what so ever.. Why is it so perfect, what is perfect, what is complexity? And you fail to realize we have 350- 500 million galaxies so far discovered.. Each of those galaxies have a possible 10 billion stars in them.. Each star could have dozens of planets in them not to mention the uncountable amount of moons around the planets.. From this amount alone it certainly seems feasiable that life could start on the lowest of probabilies because the sheer amount of enviroments out there that defy numbers..

this is a logical fallacy.. You have made a statement saying Life is too complex and concluded thus god exists.. You missed the entire premise, why is life too complex because you think it is? Have we ever seen anything else, no.. Just becuase we can't understand it all right now means nothing, and is another cheap excuse.. I am not saying god exists or doesn't exist, but you can't prove it wth this logical crap that does not make any sense and would be thrown out in any kind of philosophical argument or debate.

sSubZerOo

I did not say it was perfect, nor complex. I just said, that we, humans, have discovered an order in the Universe, starting from our small planet that extends to the whole Universe. This is the "divine" spark, this order, these sets of rules, which I am forced to repeat, are not random, nor have they just happened.

This is God.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

There is no premise what so ever.. Why is it so perfect, what is perfect, what is complexity? And you fail to realize we have 350- 500 million galaxies so far discovered.. Each of those galaxies have a possible 10 billion stars in them.. Each star could have dozens of planets in them not to mention the uncountable amount of moons around the planets.. From this amount alone it certainly seems feasiable that life could start on the lowest of probabilies because the sheer amount of enviroments out there that defy numbers..

this is a logical fallacy.. You have made a statement saying Life is too complex and concluded thus god exists.. You missed the entire premise, why is life too complex because you think it is? Have we ever seen anything else, no.. Just becuase we can't understand it all right now means nothing, and is another cheap excuse.. I am not saying god exists or doesn't exist, but you can't prove it wth this logical crap that does not make any sense and would be thrown out in any kind of philosophical argument or debate.

leeveeu

I did not say it was perfect, nor complex. I just said, that we, humans, have discovered an order in the Universe, starting from our small planet that extends to the whole Universe. This is the "divine" spark, this order, these sets of rules, which I am forced to repeat, are not random, nor have they just happened.

This is God.

how do you know it's not a coincidence that all these numbers such as the "divine ratio" exist?

No! God is Real! do you think you came from a monkey? or do you think go created you.dhend3030

how do you know it's not a coincidence that all these numbers such as the "divine ratio" exist?

mistervengeance

Why do I even bother. Oh well, here goes.

Do you know what an irrational number is? Can you calculate the probability of it popping out like it does? Can you then draw the conclusion (when you find this probability) that is it almost impossible to have a coincidence?

[QUOTE="mistervengeance"]

how do you know it's not a coincidence that all these numbers such as the "divine ratio" exist?

leeveeu

Why do I even bother. Oh well, here goes.

Do you know what an irrational number is? Can you calculate the probability of it popping out like it does? Can you then draw the conclusion (when you find this probability) that is it almost impossible to have a coincidence?

Thus again your saying life is too perfect and not chaotic enough.. Explain to me what perfection is with out the use of mathematics.. In the end this is still the exact same argument.. Just because its a cocidence or pattern is no excuse of putting god in the equation.. That is why I am pointing out there has to be some premise to lead to why god exists through this.. You just say like every one else who tries to logically argue (and fail) that god exists because of some idea, perfection, or complexity we simply don't understand..

In Ancient Greece you would be the exact same guy saying lightening shoots from the clouds saying it was the wrath of the gods.. Just because your (and our) understanding is limited does not mean you can just make a broad assumption with entirely no evidence to connect the two. This line of thought is not persuasive what so ever....

Well ifGod ever decides to show up, I'm throwing a pie in his face.metallica_fan42

[QUOTE="metallica_fan42"]Well ifGod ever decides to show up, I'm throwing a pie in his face.mohan88

[QUOTE="mohan88"][QUOTE="metallica_fan42"]Well ifGod ever decides to show up, I'm throwing a pie in his face.metallica_fan42

Maybe he's embarassed by us.Travo_basic

How does free will mean God is avoiding us?

How does free will mean God is avoiding us?

Silver_Dragon17

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

How does free will mean God is avoiding us?

mohan88

And how do you know He's not helping?;)

[QUOTE="mohan88"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

How does free will mean God is avoiding us?

Silver_Dragon17

And how do you know He's not helping?;)

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="mohan88"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

How does free will mean God is avoiding us?

mohan88

And how do you know He's not helping?;)

A poll? That wouldn't do anything to answer the question.:|

Here's the deal: It's like in that episode of Futurama. If you do to much, people grow dependant on you. If you do too little, they lose faith. But if you do things just right, they won't be sure you did anything at all.

I believe God helps us all the time, every day. But not in huge miraculous ways like in the Bible, but in small ways that make just as big a difference.

[QUOTE="mohan88"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="mohan88"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

How does free will mean God is avoiding us?

Silver_Dragon17

And how do you know He's not helping?;)

A poll? That wouldn't do anything to answer the question.:|

Here's the deal: It's like in that episode of Futurama. If you do to much, people grow dependant on you. If you do too little, they lose faith. But if you do things just right, they won't be sure you did anything at all.

I believe God helps us all the time, every day. But not in huge miraculous ways like in the Bible, but in small ways that make just as big a difference.

It's always a bad sign when you enter a religion thread... but still, imagine God's predicament. Imagine that you have a magic button in front of you that could end every war that will ever come to exist, end every tragedy that will ever happen, cure every single disease known (and unknown) to man., make everyone just as rich and just as poor as they needed to be, give justice to every murderer, raper, or criminal before their crimes harm other people, and in general promise eternal bliss for all humanity for ages. What you're saying is that God doesn't want to press this button because if he does people might not believe in him (which makes no sense at all)

It's always a bad sign when you enter a religion thread... but still, imagine God's predicament. Imagine that you have a magic button in front of you that could end every war that will ever come to exist, end every tragedy that will ever happen, cure every single disease known (and unknown) to man., make everyone just as rich and just as poor as they needed to be, give justice to every murderer, raper, or criminal before their crimes harm other people, and in general promise eternal bliss for all humanity for ages. What you're saying is that God doesn't want to press this button because if he does people might not believe in him (which makes no sense at all)TongHua

Now put yourself in His position again.

You made the world and universe, as well as your most favorite creatures, humans. You give them one simple little rule, and they break it, messing up everything you made. You then give them chance after chance after chance to simply say "I'm sorry" and stop breaking the rules, but they don't. Soon, they start to doubt you exist and mock those who believe you do, and continue breaking your ryules.

Finally, say you planned to do all of the things that you mentioned one day, but people still acted like you did not exist, or were evil, or whatnot. How would you do?

What is with you and the religion questions? It seems like you ask these open ended questions to cause drama.
rimnet00

[QUOTE="TongHua"]It's always a bad sign when you enter a religion thread... but still, imagine God's predicament. Imagine that you have a magic button in front of you that could end every war that will ever come to exist, end every tragedy that will ever happen, cure every single disease known (and unknown) to man., make everyone just as rich and just as poor as they needed to be, give justice to every murderer, raper, or criminal before their crimes harm other people, and in general promise eternal bliss for all humanity for ages. What you're saying is that God doesn't want to press this button because if he does people might not believe in him (which makes no sense at all)Silver_Dragon17

Now put yourself in His position again.

You made the world and universe, as well as your most favorite creatures, humans. You give them one simple little rule, and they break it, messing up everything you made. You then give them chance after chance after chance to simply say "I'm sorry" and stop breaking the rules, but they don't. Soon, they start to doubt you exist and mock those who believe you do, and continue breaking your ryules.

Finally, say you planned to do all of the things that you mentioned one day, but people still acted like you did not exist, or were evil, or whatnot. How would you do?

Lmao you think its bad now, you should see what it was like when god supposedly came witht he coming of Jesus.. Man this god character sure likes to stereotype 6 billion people.

Lmao you think its bad now, you should see what it was like when god supposedly came witht he coming of Jesus.. Man this god character sure likes to stereotype 6 billion people.sSubZerOo

Huh? I don't understand.:?:?:?

[QUOTE="rimnet00"]Gameguy, read my revision... I reread what I wrote and realized it was more gibberish then a clear thought process.

Anyways, you are talking in absolutes. In your last thread. One who is born and raised to know the path has more of a responsibility towards his faith then one who may never have heard the call. Each judged relative to their own individual life. In other words, if an infant dies, will he go to Hell if he is born to a sinful family? Of course not, he didn't know. What about someone who grew up on some remote Island, and never knew anything except Idol worship -- once again, he knew not.

However, as someone who is born in a country where information is freely flowing, it is inexcusable to use the ignorance card. It is your responsibility to seek knowledge, where ever you may find it, even it takes you all the way to China.

gameguy6700

You know of Islam do you not? Well, Muslims would say you shouldn't be forgiven for choosing to worship a false messiah and are going to hell when you die. I gurantee you that were you born into a Muslim family you would be thinking the same way. You think however that its their fault for not converting to Christianity so it is in fact they who are going to hell, and that you will never convert to another religion. That steadfast belief is shared by just about every other religious person in the world. What you believe relies almost entirely on what you told to believe as a kid. Occassionally people change their minds for whatever reason, but those people are in a minority. Hence the reason getting born into a non-Christian family/society will usually automatically doom a person to hell according to Christianity.

Also, as to your infant example, Catholicism would argue that, yes, that baby goes to hell. Likewise, many Christian denominations are absolute in either you accept Jesus and go to heaven or you don't and go to hell, no exceptions.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]Lmao you think its bad now, you should see what it was like when god supposedly came witht he coming of Jesus.. Man this god character sure likes to stereotype 6 billion people.Silver_Dragon17

Huh? I don't understand.:?:?:?

Your saying that god has no reason to show their face to mankind for what we have done.. Yet supposedly they sent their son (Christian belief of course) in a time that was far FAR more violent, oppresive, and not fun to live in.. Another thing I don't understand is why must god punish the people who believe or of good character over the people who are unpleasent? I would think he/she/it would not stereotype the entire world as "evil". And I also believe redemption is one of the cornerstones to Christian belief...

Lets not forget why would god care about if they believe in the being or not.. Shouldn't a person's character far outwiegh any such trivial matter when measuring a person's worth?

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]Lmao you think its bad now, you should see what it was like when god supposedly came witht he coming of Jesus.. Man this god character sure likes to stereotype 6 billion people.sSubZerOo

Huh? I don't understand.:?:?:?

Your saying that god has no reason to show their face to mankind for what we have done.. Yet supposedly they sent their son (Christian belief of course) in a time that was far FAR more violent, oppresive, and not fun to live in.. Another thing I don't understand is why must god punish the people who believe or of good character over the people who are unpleasent? I would think he/she/it would not stereotype the entire world as "evil". And I also believe redemption is one of the cornerstones to Christian belief...

Lets not forget why would god care about if they believe in the being or not.. Shouldn't a person's character far outwiegh any such trivial matter when measuring a person's worth?

God did show His face to mankind: When He came to Earth as Jesus.:|

God does punish people who are unpleasant, including those who believe. He just does it in a different way.

I think He would stereotype the world as evil, seeing as how the whole world goes against what He has named good and follows evil.

I have already acknowledged your last point.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]Lmao you think its bad now, you should see what it was like when god supposedly came witht he coming of Jesus.. Man this god character sure likes to stereotype 6 billion people.Silver_Dragon17

Huh? I don't understand.:?:?:?

Your saying that god has no reason to show their face to mankind for what we have done.. Yet supposedly they sent their son (Christian belief of course) in a time that was far FAR more violent, oppresive, and not fun to live in.. Another thing I don't understand is why must god punish the people who believe or of good character over the people who are unpleasent? I would think he/she/it would not stereotype the entire world as "evil". And I also believe redemption is one of the cornerstones to Christian belief...

Lets not forget why would god care about if they believe in the being or not.. Shouldn't a person's character far outwiegh any such trivial matter when measuring a person's worth?

God did show His face to mankind: When He came to Earth as Jesus.:|

God does punish people who are unpleasant, including those who believe. He just does it in a different way.

I think He would stereotype the world as evil, seeing as how the whole world goes against what He has named good and follows evil.

I have already acknowledged your last point.

Jesus was never God.mohan88

Yes He was.:|