Is that what they base their disbelief on or is it a lack of faith?It is when one bases their beliefs, for example a disbelief in our supernatural Creator, on that circular argument.
blackregiment
This topic is locked from further discussion.
Is that what they base their disbelief on or is it a lack of faith?It is when one bases their beliefs, for example a disbelief in our supernatural Creator, on that circular argument.
blackregiment
I see a lot of circular reasoning in this thread, but nobody using the example you mentioned. What is the relevance of that picture?[QUOTE="MrPraline"]
[QUOTE="blackregiment"]It is when one bases their beliefs, for example a disbelief in our supernatural Creator, on that circular argument.
blackregiment
While I feel the statement you quoted is self-explanatory, I will try to clarify it. If someone bases their disbelief in the existence of the supernatural, for example a supernatural Creator that exists outside of the natural world, because the science academy proclaims that all that exists is the natural world, then they are basing their disbelief in a supernatural Creator God, on the authority of that proclaimation by the science academy.
The relevance of that image was to make that point.
Yes, I understand the statement. I was confused as to the revelance of it, since I see nobody in this thread even mentioning the science academy at all.I like how BR omitted the fact that Dr. Greenleaf died in 1853. Surely 150 years is enough time for such "overwhelming" evidence to convert everybody to Christianity?MrPraline
And Christ died and was resurrected almost 2000 years ago. The Word of God does not teach that "everybody" will use their free will to become believers. In fact it teaches the opposite, that the vast majority will use their free will to reject salvation in Christ, that only a remnant will come to Christ.
[QUOTE="MrPraline"]I like how BR omitted the fact that Dr. Greenleaf died in 1853. Surely 150 years is enough time for such "overwhelming" evidence to convert everybody to Christianity?blackregiment
And Christ died and was resurrected almost 2000 years ago. The Word of God does not teach that "everybody" will use their free will to become believers. In fact it teaches the opposite, that the vast majority will use their free will to reject salvation in Christ, that only a remnant will come to Christ.
If the evidence is strong enough, the "vast majority" will eventually become believers. You mentioning that only a remnant will come to Christ, kind of contradicts the overhwelming evidence you were talking about earlier. :VIs that what they base their disbelief on or is it a lack of faith?[QUOTE="blackregiment"]
It is when one bases their beliefs, for example a disbelief in our supernatural Creator, on that circular argument.
LJS9502_basic
The Bible teaches that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. When one does not believe that God exists, and therefore that the Bible is not His Word, in other words, they reject this as part of their worldview, then without the Divine intervention of the Holy Spirit, they remain in their disbelief.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Is that what they base their disbelief on or is it a lack of faith?[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]
[QUOTE="blackregiment"]
It is when one bases their beliefs, for example a disbelief in our supernatural Creator, on that circular argument.
blackregiment
The Bible teaches that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. When one does not believe that God exists, and therefore that the Bible is not His Word, in other words, they reject this as part of their worldview, then without the Divine intervention of the Holy Spirit, they remain in their disbelief.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Various denominations have differing ideas on faith. One can't be sure one has the right interpretation.[QUOTE="blackregiment"][QUOTE="MrPraline"]I like how BR omitted the fact that Dr. Greenleaf died in 1853. Surely 150 years is enough time for such "overwhelming" evidence to convert everybody to Christianity?MrPraline
And Christ died and was resurrected almost 2000 years ago. The Word of God does not teach that "everybody" will use their free will to become believers. In fact it teaches the opposite, that the vast majority will use their free will to reject salvation in Christ, that only a remnant will come to Christ.
If the evidence is strong enough, the "vast majority" will eventually become believers. You mentioning that only a remnant will come to Christ, kind of contradicts the overhwelming evidence you were talking about earlier. :VWell, that is what the Word of God reveals. Don't take my word for it, study the Word of God and you will see that.
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
Psa 118:9 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.
[QUOTE="blackregiment"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Is that what they base their disbelief on or is it a lack of faith?
LJS9502_basic
The Bible teaches that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. When one does not believe that God exists, and therefore that the Bible is not His Word, in other words, they reject this as part of their worldview, then without the Divine intervention of the Holy Spirit, they remain in their disbelief.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Various denominations have differing ideas on faith. One can't be sure one has the right interpretation.Denominations are irrelevant to the truth of God's Word. What matters is what God has said in His revealed Word. That is why it is so important to study God's Word rather than trust in the traditions of men.
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
Psa 118:9 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Well I was more referring to the variety of answers we get from members of your unions. ;)[
Denominations are irrelevant to the truth of God's Word. What matters is what God has said in His revealed Word. That is why it is so important to study God's Word rather than trust in the traditions of men.
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
Psa 118:9 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.blackregiment
Well put it this way: you believe in something you have ABSOLUTELY no evidence of.Brainkiller05Actually, we have some pretty good evidence. Not least the reality of Jesus Christ as a historical person.
[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]
[QUOTE="blackregiment"]
Reread my post. I made a post referencing Dr. Simon Greenleaf, a law professor known as the father of the "rules of evidence", who decided to investigate the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Based on his research into the historical event, the resurrection of Christ, he gave his life to Christ and wrote a book, "An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice." detailing his research and why he chose to accept Christ.
That is the claim I made. The facts are, he did the research, he gave his life to Christ, and he wrote a book detaining the evidence and why. If you doubt those claims, then the burden is on you to show those three things did not happen, i.e that he did not do the research, or did not give his life to Christ, or did not write the book.
If you want to read about the evidence he based his decision on, then I suggest you get a copy of his book.
blackregiment
Appeal to authority as opposed to providing evidence...
I approve!
So sorry but I didn't "appeal to authority". I simply posted some information about a former atheist, Dr. Simon Greenleaf, that did some research on the resurrection, and based on his research came to Christ, then detailed his reasons in a book.
Now if we want to see a real example of an appeal to authority, here's one. :)
Err... do you know what an appeal to authority is? Because your post strongly suggests that you do not...
Well put it this way: you believe in something you have ABSOLUTELY no evidence of. I'm fine with that, I have no problems - if it makes you sleep better at night thinking you'll live happily ever after in heaven with God and passed friends and family members then that's great, I have no right to try to take that feeling away from you. BUT the problems occur when you actually try to prove his existence and you try to prove that you are right, when infact you have no evidence at all. I'm done.Brainkiller05
Hey, I respect your right to think and believe whatever you choose. God gives us free will to do just that. While you are at it though, perhaps you can provide your irrefutable evidence that the universe and life self-created, that God doesn't exist, that Jesus Christ was not who He claimed to be God in the flesh, and that He did not arise from the dead.
Show me your evidence.
[QUOTE="Brainkiller05"]Well put it this way: you believe in something you have ABSOLUTELY no evidence of.Lansdowne5Actually, we have some pretty good evidence. Not least the reality of Jesus Christ as a historical person.
No offense dude, but that article is comprised pretty much entirely of argumentative fallacies and poorly arrived at conclusions...
[QUOTE="Brainkiller05"]Well put it this way: you believe in something you have ABSOLUTELY no evidence of.Lansdowne5Actually, we have some pretty good evidence. Not least the reality of Jesus Christ as a historical person. "How do we know God exists? As Christians, we know God exists because we speak to Him every day." Saw that along with a bunch of bible quotes, seriously you need to do better if you want to prove his existance, even though the first sentence of the link you posted said it's not possible to prove his existence. Talk about covering your bases, you're fighting a battle you can't win. "bite off more than you can chew, then chew it"
[QUOTE="Brainkiller05"]Well put it this way: you believe in something you have ABSOLUTELY no evidence of. I'm fine with that, I have no problems - if it makes you sleep better at night thinking you'll live happily ever after in heaven with God and passed friends and family members then that's great, I have no right to try to take that feeling away from you. BUT the problems occur when you actually try to prove his existence and you try to prove that you are right, when infact you have no evidence at all. I'm done.blackregiment
Hey, I respect your right to think and believe whatever you choose. God gives us free will to do just that. While you are at it though, perhaps you can provide your irrefutable evidence that the universe and life self-created, that God doesn't exist, that Jesus Christ was not who He claimed to be God in the flesh, and that He did not arise from the dead.
Show me your evidence.
How about you show me your evidence? By the way, The Bible is not an appropriate source, since it's credibility is highly questionable.
[QUOTE="Brainkiller05"]Well put it this way: you believe in something you have ABSOLUTELY no evidence of. I'm fine with that, I have no problems - if it makes you sleep better at night thinking you'll live happily ever after in heaven with God and passed friends and family members then that's great, I have no right to try to take that feeling away from you. BUT the problems occur when you actually try to prove his existence and you try to prove that you are right, when infact you have no evidence at all. I'm done.blackregiment
Hey, I respect your right to think and believe whatever you choose. God gives us free will to do just that. While you are at it though, perhaps you can provide your irrefutable evidence that the universe and life self-created, that God doesn't exist, that Jesus Christ was not who He claimed to be God in the flesh, and that He did not arise from the dead.
Show me your evidence.
It dosn't work like that. You have to assume a null hypothesis unless you can prove beyond reasonable doubt that your hypothesis is correct.Hey, I respect your right to think and believe whatever you choose. God gives us free will to do just that. While you are at it though, perhaps you can provide your irrefutable evidence that the universe and life self-created, that God doesn't exist, that Jesus Christ was not who He claimed to be God in the flesh, and that He did not arise from the dead.
Show me your evidence.
blackregiment
[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"][QUOTE="Brainkiller05"]Well put it this way: you believe in something you have ABSOLUTELY no evidence of.Brainkiller05Actually, we have some pretty good evidence. Not least the reality of Jesus Christ as a historical person. "How do we know God exists? As Christians, we know God exists because we speak to Him every day." Saw that along with a bunch of bible quotes, seriously you need to do better if you want to prove his existance, even though the first sentence of the link you posted said it's not possible to prove his existence. Talk about covering your bases, you're fighting a battle you can't win. "bite off more than you can chew, then chew it" It's not possible to scientifically prove his existence, but that doesn't mean there isn't enough evidence to have a justified belief in him. That said, I think you might have missed the arguments which weren't from a biblical standpoint. Such as the ontological argument, the teological argument, the cosmological argument, and the moral argument. :)
Actually, we have some pretty good evidence. Not least the reality of Jesus Christ as a historical person.[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"][QUOTE="Brainkiller05"]Well put it this way: you believe in something you have ABSOLUTELY no evidence of.chessmaster1989
No offense dude, but that article is comprised pretty much entirely of argumentative fallacies and poorly arrived at conclusions...
Nice appeal to assertion.[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"][QUOTE="Lansdowne5"] Actually, we have some pretty good evidence. Not least the reality of Jesus Christ as a historical person.Lansdowne5
No offense dude, but that article is comprised pretty much entirely of argumentative fallacies and poorly arrived at conclusions...
Nice appeal to assertion.You're thinking of proof by assertion... and that's not what you seem to think it is...
[QUOTE="Brainkiller05"][QUOTE="Lansdowne5"] Actually, we have some pretty good evidence. Not least the reality of Jesus Christ as a historical person.Lansdowne5"How do we know God exists? As Christians, we know God exists because we speak to Him every day." Saw that along with a bunch of bible quotes, seriously you need to do better if you want to prove his existance, even though the first sentence of the link you posted said it's not possible to prove his existence. Talk about covering your bases, you're fighting a battle you can't win. "bite off more than you can chew, then chew it" It's not possible to scientifically prove his existence, but that doesn't mean there isn't enough evidence to have a justified belief in him. That said, I think you might have missed the arguments which weren't from a biblical standpoint. Such as the ontological argument, the teological argument, the cosmological argument, and the moral argument. :)Those arguments are of philosophical nature and dont prove anything by far.
On the other hand those arguments dont even argue in favour of one religion, but of theism in general. ;)
And like every philosophical argument, they have wholes.
Actually, we have some pretty good evidence. Not least the reality of Jesus Christ as a historical person.Lansdowne5
That article is simply not true.
If God so desired, He could simply appear and prove to the whole world that He exists. But if He did that, there would be no need for faith.
Faith is subjective, because there is no universal evidence for it. Anything that's subjective is essentially just a cop out for laziness to search for the truth or gullibility to accept something less than the truth asthe truth.
That does not mean, however, that there is no evidence of God's existence. The Bible states, "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world" (Psalm 19:1-4). Looking at the stars, understanding the vastness of the universe, observing the wonders of nature, seeing the beauty of a sunset—all of these things point to a Creator God.
If God's nature is to violate nature, then nature would therefore not exist. If we were truly made in the image of God, we would be immaterial and without shape. So the argument made here actually contradicts with the concept of God.
If these were not enough, there is also evidence of God in our own hearts.Ecclesiastes 3:11tells us, "…He has also set eternity in the hearts of men." Deep within us is the recognition that there is something beyond this life and someone beyond this world. We can deny this knowledge intellectually, but God's presence in us and all around us is still obvious. Despite this, the Bible warns that some will still deny God's existence: "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God'" (Psalm 14:1). Since the vast majority of people throughout history, in all cultures, in all civilizations, and on all continents believe in the existence of some kind of God, there must be something (or someone) causing this belief.
Again, GotQuestions indirectly invokes subjectivism by pandering to the feelings of the heart, which is essentially just a metaphor for emotions. Just because people desire something more than their material life does not mean it's right. People also desire evil. Those desires are not justified. Not only that, but Psalm 14:1 is an example of ad hominen. Not only that, but the writer of Psalms is probably in hell, given what Jesus said in Matthew 5:22:
"But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."
In addition to the biblical arguments for God's existence, there are logical arguments. First, there is the ontological argument. The most popular form of the ontological argument uses the concept of God to prove God's existence. It begins with the definition of God as "a being than which no greater can be conceived." It is then argued that to exist is greater than to not exist, and therefore the greatest conceivable being must exist.
The bolded part is simply proof by assertion and has no basis in reality.
If God did not exist, then God would not be the greatest conceivable being, and that would contradict the very definition of God.
No, if God is the greatest being that can be imagined, then he can still be imagined without requiring him to exist.
A second argument is the teleological argument. The teleological argument states that since the universe displays such an amazing design, there must have been a divine Designer. For example, if the Earth were significantly closer or farther away from the sun, it would not be capable of supporting much of the life it currently does. If the elements in our atmosphere were even a few percentage points different, nearly every living thing on earth would die. The odds of a single protein molecule forming by chance is 1 in 10243 (that is a 10 followed by 243 zeros). A single cell is comprised of millions of protein molecules.
This ignores the rest of the derelict planets inhospitable to life and all of the collapsing solar systems where any life possible is annihilated. Given the vast capacity of the universe, it is not unimaginable that humans came into existence naturally.
A third logical argument for God's existence is called the cosmological argument. Every effect must have a cause. This universe and everything in it is an effect. There must be something that caused everything to come into existence. Ultimately, there must be something "un-caused" in order to cause everything else to come into existence. That "un-caused" cause is God.
This is true if the universe was determinism and depended on cause and effect, but quantum mechanics and genetic drift shows this is simply not the case, and that the universe is not purely cause and effect.
A fourth argument is known as the moral argument. Every culture throughout history has had some form of law. Everyone has a sense of right and wrong. Murder, lying, stealing, and immorality are almost universally rejected. Where did this sense of right and wrong come from if not from a holy God?
It comes from logic and reason, the attributes that this writer seemed to ignore while writing the article.
The true reason is that once they admit that there is a God, they also must realize that they are responsible to God and in need of forgiveness from Him (Romans 3:23,6:23).
Not true. There are plenty of non-Christians who feel fit to serve a figure of authority, if that authoritative figure is worth serving, or if that authoritative figure exists.
If God exists, then we are accountable to Him for our actions. If God does not exist, then we can do whatever we want without having to worry about God judging us.
Not true. We can not and may not do whatever we want without consequences of our actions. If I want to kill someone, a rational person might kill me out of self-defense, for example. And in a civil society, the laws would protect her.
That is why many of those who deny the existence of God cling strongly to the theory of naturalistic evolution—it gives them an alternative to believing in a Creator God. God exists and ultimately everyone knows that He exists. The very fact that some attempt so aggressively to disprove His existence is in fact an argument for His existence.
Not true again. Christians disbelieve in many gods and aggressively try to disprove their existence. Therefore, by the writer's logic, every god that Christians don't believe in exist.
How do we know God exists? As Christians, we know God exists because we speak to Him every day. We do not audibly hear Him speaking to us, but we sense His presence, we feel His leading, we know His love, we desire His grace.
This is relying on faith, and not objective reasoning. The heart can be deceptive.
Things have occurred in our lives that have no possible explanation other than God.
That's God of the gaps. That's simply an excuse not to objectively search for the truth, but to rely on subjective faith.
God has so miraculously saved us and changed our lives that we cannot help but acknowledge and praise His existence. None of these arguments can persuade anyone who refuses to acknowledge what is already obvious. In the end, God's existence must be accepted by faith (Hebrews 11:6). Faith in God is not a blind leap into the dark; it is safe step into a well-lit room where the vast majority of people are already standing.
I was saying?
Just because Jesus may have existed does not mean he was the Christ.
Omg, that ^^^^ was the article? :o
You call that proof Lansdowne?
Oh for the love.... -_-
Teenaged
Yeah... I had a similar feeling while reading it....
[QUOTE="Teenaged"]
Omg, that ^^^^ was the article? :o
You call that proof Lansdowne?
Oh for the love.... -_-
chessmaster1989
Yeah... I had a similar feeling while reading it....
And do you know whats funny/irritating?That I expect to see a lot of "I dont accept that premise" in response to G_C's post. -_-
:argh:
The Bible is not an appropriate source, since it's credibility is highly questionable.
chessmaster1989
Only to the natural man. The Bible has been proven to be a highly accurate record of history and there are numerous first hand eyewitness accounts of the ressurection. Using your logic then all of secular history must be thrown out a s well.
Bring me the eyewitnesses from that period that deny the ressurection of Christ.
Right now the score is 500+ eyewitnesses for the resurrection, 0 against.
[QUOTE="blackregiment"]
[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]
The Bible is not an appropriate source, since it's credibility is highly questionable.
chessmaster1989
Only to the natural man. The Bible has been proven to be a highly accurate record of history and there are numerous first hand eyewitness accounts of the ressurection. Using your logic then all of secular history must be thrown out a s well.
Bring me the eyewitnessesfrom that period that deny the ressurection of Christ.
Right now the score is 500+ eyewitnesses for the ressurection, 0 against.
*sigh* do I really need to point out how stupid that statement is?
That said, eyewitness accounts are not necessarily reliable, even in number (besides which, to my knowledge, these accounts are documented nowhere besides The Bible, which seems just a little suspicious). Think of how many people have claimed to have seen aliens. Think of how many children have claimed there are monsters in their rooms. I guess we should accept that aliens and monsters exist as well. :o
Hey, if enough people believe something then that means it's real, just look at religion wait what[QUOTE="spawnassasin"]By Odin's beard, I thought so too.by the word of Cthulu i thought we were done with this thread
MrPraline
By Thor's hammer, I agree that it should be done!
Christianity is not a perfect religion, especially in my opinion with how things are dealt with in the Old Testament. Sure, in the New Testament Jesus is this really cool guy who's all peaceful and everything, but before him you had God striking down armies of people who didn't want to believe in him, pretty much condemning them to hell. Now, my biggest concern with the Bible is that if god is omniscient then why does he create souls who are going to be condemned to hell? Wouldn't that be cruel and pointless? What is gained from a condemned soul?soldier-dark
It makes god happy I guess.
Thank goodness I'm not a Christian.
Also TC, you fail to realize that Christianity isn't the only religion that respects women. Islam and Judaism are also very focused on women's rights. The bible is NOT the only book with scientific "facts," the Koran and Torah also have those. This is why I am Muslim; all of these books are the same in a way and Islam is merely a conclusion to the Abrahamic faith. Although that doesn't give me the right to preach inceassantly about it, unlike many Christians that I see. I respect your opinion though. But don't expect GS users to be conviced by your post. (Save for users like mindstorm and blackregiment.)
By Odin's beard, I thought so too.[QUOTE="MrPraline"][QUOTE="spawnassasin"]
by the word of Cthulu i thought we were done with this thread
chessmaster1989
By Thor's hammer, I agree that it should be done!
By the wing of Thanatos, I too concur that statement.[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"][QUOTE="MrPraline"] By Odin's beard, I thought so too. AirGuitarist87
By Thor's hammer, I agree that it should be done!
By the wing of Thanatos, I too concur that statement.You pagan! Do you not believe in the one, true god, the Flying Spaghetti Monster? :x
By the wing of Thanatos, I too concur that statement.[QUOTE="AirGuitarist87"][QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]
By Thor's hammer, I agree that it should be done!
ghoklebutter
You pagan! Do you not believe in the one, true god, the Flying Spaghetti Monster? :x
Ramen my brother.It's not fair and I think you're really mean, I think you're really mean D:
WHY IS DEM THREAD NOT DEAD YET
[QUOTE="ghoklebutter"][QUOTE="AirGuitarist87"] By the wing of Thanatos, I too concur that statement.MrPraline
You pagan! Do you not believe in the one, true god, the Flying Spaghetti Monster? :x
Ramen my brother.Ramahu-akbar!
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