I know this may seem like a blog post but there's a discussion in here i promise. Feel free to skip to the last paragraph.To set things up though, i need to tell you a bit about my day. I live in a big city where i go to law school. I live with my girlfriend in an apartment which we love to show off to people. I have to work a job as well to afford my rent. Yesterday i went to the doctor because i've been feeling incredibly tired and have had a pretty bad cough and headache, and was diagnosed with a temporary problem derived from the dirty air in inner-cities, which i am exposed to more of than most people due to me living, working and studying in one. Later i fall out with my girlfriend because i complain that she was getting me down (she was complaining about how crappy her shift at work was, and refused to respond to any of my efforts to put a bright, more optimistic note on thigns), so i go to my law building to look up some old journals to help with my assignment. I sit there for a good two hours, feeling pretty empty and depressed, writing an assigment about legal instruments and fairly pointless arguments which have very little impact on the world. Then i log onto my facebook to take a break and read a few status updates like 'got a massive blister on my foot' and 'cant wait for my new camera to get here!' and something stirred inside my conscience and almost without control i deleted my facebook account. I looked down at my iPhone and really wanted to just throw it as far away from me as i could. I just felt overcome with a feeling that my entire existence was just utterly pointless, as was the entire city around me and all of its inhabitants. I got thinking about what i'd give to live on a warm beach in a little shack where i can relax, talk with my neighbours, raise some kids and that's about it. No apartment, no nice car, no working in an office or typing away on a keyboard without purpose. No dealing with horrible people, be they rude, arrogant, ignorant, violent, racist or anything else. *DISCUSSION BEGINS HERE* Is western life becoming more and more pointless and meaningless? It seems to me like the goal in life thanks to our capitalist society is to make as much money as possible, surround yourself with as many nice things as possible, and then die having fulfilled no real purpose whatsoever in all your years. What do you guys think?
If life is meaningless, that's on you. Not society.
Pirate700
Um, not really. If society functions in a manner which creates and incubates that meaninglessness i think it's very much a sociological issue, not an individual one.
If life is meaningless, that's on you. Not society.
Ninja-Kitteh
Um, not really. If society functions in a manner which creates and incubates that meaninglessness i think it's very much a sociological issue, not an individual one.Um Yeah really. Life is what you make of it. It's your life personally is meaningless, that problem is on you and only you.
Yeah, don't make it all about how capitalism is evil and such...although if we reflect..everyone lives a meaningless life...regardless of location...we're like robots..going about our daily routines...with little to no chang...when we die no one will care...perhaps our loved ones for around a year or two..then it will be as if we never existed unless we make some major earth-shattering discovery...
If life is meaningless, that's on you. Not society.
Um, not really. If society functions in a manner which creates and incubates that meaninglessness i think it's very much a sociological issue, not an individual one. My life seems pretty good, so it's all perspective. I don't think society incubates meaninglessness...
if you think life is meaningless then why dont u do something? like for an example. if u dont want to make a lot of money dont. you can just not follow it if you want.
I think it's far too easy to say 'well that's your fault'. It took a series of catalysts all occuring at the same time to point my mind in this direction. Had my day gone by better i may never have even reached this consideration. You can only derive meaning in life when you actually observe and consider your life's meaning, if you follow me. As such if society creates and stimulates a lifestyle of meaninglessness but does so in a manner whereby people do not stop and consider their lives and their routines, it is not THEIR fault but the simple functions of society. It's like blaming the individual for being a sexist in a time when women did not have equal rights to men. That was just society. It was the rules. It was the way life was. A tiny, tiny number of people question the very fabric of society. Most go on about their daily lives without even considering the way things work and how fair they are.
if you think life is meaningless then why dont u do something? like for an example. if u dont want to make a lot of money dont. you can just not follow it if you want.
hiphopballer
It's not all about me, i'm talking about the wider scope of things. I'm sure there are millions and millions of people who live in 'developed' countries who go about the same every day life as i do, working, studying, earning money and buying things. My question is whether that is of any real purpose and a way to spend a life.
I think it's far too easy to say 'well that's your fault'. It took a series of catalysts all occuring at the same time to point my mind in this direction. Had my day gone by better i may never have even reached this consideration. You can only derive meaning in life when you actually observe and consider your life's meaning, if you follow me. As such if society creates and stimulates a lifestyle of meaninglessness but does so in a manner whereby people do not stop and consider their lives and their routines, it is not THEIR fault but the simple functions of society. It's like blaming the individual for being a sexist in a time when women did not have equal rights to men. That was just society. It was the rules. It was the way life was. A tiny, tiny number of people question the very fabric of society. Most go on about their daily lives without even considering the way things work and how fair they are. Ninja-Kitteh
If you truely see life as meaningless, I suggest you see a doctor. Seriously, you sound depressed.
I think it's far too easy to say 'well that's your fault'. It took a series of catalysts all occuring at the same time to point my mind in this direction. Had my day gone by better i may never have even reached this consideration. You can only derive meaning in life when you actually observe and consider your life's meaning, if you follow me. As such if society creates and stimulates a lifestyle of meaninglessness but does so in a manner whereby people do not stop and consider their lives and their routines, it is not THEIR fault but the simple functions of society. It's like blaming the individual for being a sexist in a time when women did not have equal rights to men. That was just society. It was the rules. It was the way life was. A tiny, tiny number of people question the very fabric of society. Most go on about their daily lives without even considering the way things work and how fair they are. Ninja-Kitteh
Society has nothing to do with it...your life is meaningless..as are most of our lives...we die and no one cares..
Um Yeah really. Life is what you make of it. It's your life personally is meaningless, that problem is on you and only you.
Pirate700
That's very close-minded if you ask me. If that's the case MILLIONS of people have meaningless lives and it's their own fault. Only when you're dealing with THAT many people it's clearly part of the fabric of society isn't it, not the individuals themselves? And as such it obviously is a sociological problem.
if you think life is meaningless then why dont u do something? like for an example. if u dont want to make a lot of money dont. you can just not follow it if you want.
Ninja-Kitteh
It's not all about me, i'm talking about the wider scope of things. I'm sure there are millions and millions of people who live in 'developed' countries who go about the same every day life as i do, working, studying, earning money and buying things. My question is whether that is of any real purpose and a way to spend a life. You seem to want purpose to be defined externally and objectively. Since we are free-willed beings and not automata, that is, at best, a bad idea.
[QUOTE="Ninja-Kitteh"]I think it's far too easy to say 'well that's your fault'. It took a series of catalysts all occuring at the same time to point my mind in this direction. Had my day gone by better i may never have even reached this consideration. You can only derive meaning in life when you actually observe and consider your life's meaning, if you follow me. As such if society creates and stimulates a lifestyle of meaninglessness but does so in a manner whereby people do not stop and consider their lives and their routines, it is not THEIR fault but the simple functions of society. It's like blaming the individual for being a sexist in a time when women did not have equal rights to men. That was just society. It was the rules. It was the way life was. A tiny, tiny number of people question the very fabric of society. Most go on about their daily lives without even considering the way things work and how fair they are. Xx_Hopeless_xX
Society has nothing to do with it...your life is meaningless..as are most of our lives...we die and no one cares..
How can you say most of our lives are meaningless and then say that isn't a problem with society?
[QUOTE="Ninja-Kitteh"]I think it's far too easy to say 'well that's your fault'. It took a series of catalysts all occuring at the same time to point my mind in this direction. Had my day gone by better i may never have even reached this consideration. You can only derive meaning in life when you actually observe and consider your life's meaning, if you follow me. As such if society creates and stimulates a lifestyle of meaninglessness but does so in a manner whereby people do not stop and consider their lives and their routines, it is not THEIR fault but the simple functions of society. It's like blaming the individual for being a sexist in a time when women did not have equal rights to men. That was just society. It was the rules. It was the way life was. A tiny, tiny number of people question the very fabric of society. Most go on about their daily lives without even considering the way things work and how fair they are. If the problem is inherent in society then rebel against society. And just by doing that, you create meaning in your life.
Um Yeah really. Life is what you make of it. It's your life personally is meaningless, that problem is on you and only you.
Ninja-Kitteh
That's very close-minded if you ask me. If that's the case MILLIONS of people have meaningless lives and it's their own fault. Only when you're dealing with THAT many people it's clearly part of the fabric of society isn't it, not the individuals themselves? And as such it obviously is a sociological problem. Meaningless is whatever you want to classify it as. If just living life isn't enough for you to get meaning from, again, get help. You have depression.
Um Yeah really. Life is what you make of it. It's your life personally is meaningless, that problem is on you and only you.
Ninja-Kitteh
That's very close-minded if you ask me. If that's the case MILLIONS of people have meaningless lives and it's their own fault. Only when you're dealing with THAT many people it's clearly part of the fabric of society isn't it, not the individuals themselves? And as such it obviously is a sociological problem. Nope; one's internal life is, you know, one's own responsibility. If you choose to abdicate ownership and responsibility for yourself and your sense of meaning over to societal mores, that is a decision you have made. Congratulations!
[QUOTE="Ninja-Kitteh"]I think it's far too easy to say 'well that's your fault'. It took a series of catalysts all occuring at the same time to point my mind in this direction. Had my day gone by better i may never have even reached this consideration. You can only derive meaning in life when you actually observe and consider your life's meaning, if you follow me. As such if society creates and stimulates a lifestyle of meaninglessness but does so in a manner whereby people do not stop and consider their lives and their routines, it is not THEIR fault but the simple functions of society. It's like blaming the individual for being a sexist in a time when women did not have equal rights to men. That was just society. It was the rules. It was the way life was. A tiny, tiny number of people question the very fabric of society. Most go on about their daily lives without even considering the way things work and how fair they are. Ninja-Kitteh
Society has nothing to do with it...your life is meaningless..as are most of our lives...we die and no one cares..
How can you say most of our lives are meaningless and then say that isn't a problem with society? Let's take a different tact? What would make life "meaningful"? And how would "society" make that happen?
if you think life is meaningless then why dont u do something? like for an example. if u dont want to make a lot of money dont. you can just not follow it if you want.
It's not all about me, i'm talking about the wider scope of things. I'm sure there are millions and millions of people who live in 'developed' countries who go about the same every day life as i do, working, studying, earning money and buying things. My question is whether that is of any real purpose and a way to spend a life. You seem to want purpose to be defined externally and objectively. Since we are free-willed beings and not automata, that is, at best, a bad idea. I dont want purpose to be defined at all. I'm not saying i have the answer, i'm asking if there's a problem. We are certainly free-willed beings, however its naive to say we aren't automata is in practice we of course are. We function as the society in which we live and are raised in functions ie go to school, get a job, save for a pension, buy nice things, die. People dont do that because they think 'hey i have free will and this is really what i want to do' they do it because that's just the way our society has developed and that's 'what you do'.
Here's how I see it: life has always been meaningless. You can choose to attach your own meaning to your own life, but overall life is and always has been meaningless.
Let's take a different tact? What would make life "meaningful"? And how would "society" make that happen?xaos
Again your approach to this seems to be like a doctor trying to cure a disease. It's not that simple. And again, when someone acknowledges a negative trait in society they are not claiming that that thing could easily be 'fixed' if 'society' just changed. That's obviously not achievable.
Here's how I see it: life has always been meaningless. You can choose to attach your own meaning to your own life, but overall life is and always has been meaningless.t3hrubikscube
This is a good point. After all my thoughts of living a simpler life in a nicer place with nicer people is probably different in reality. 'Man living on this beach sucks, i wish i had a house and was a lawyer! My life is pointless!' :P
[QUOTE="xaos"]Let's take a different tact? What would make life "meaningful"? And how would "society" make that happen?Ninja-Kitteh
Again your approach to this seems to be like a doctor trying to cure a disease. It's not that simple. And again, when someone acknowledges a negative trait in society they are not claiming that that thing could easily be 'fixed' if 'society' just changed. That's obviously not achievable. Well, since your approach seems to be to have "diagnosed" what you deem to be a fault, what is the point of discussing it if not to find a remedy? In short, what was your purpose in posting the thread if you don't want people to disagree that there is a problem and you don't want to discuss possible solutions to the purported problem?
i would tend to agree. most people in this nation are obsessed with achieving certain things in life, most of which are quite meaningless imo, but then again most people would not agree with my opinions on life :oops:
[QUOTE="Ninja-Kitteh"]I think it's far too easy to say 'well that's your fault'. It took a series of catalysts all occuring at the same time to point my mind in this direction. Had my day gone by better i may never have even reached this consideration. You can only derive meaning in life when you actually observe and consider your life's meaning, if you follow me. As such if society creates and stimulates a lifestyle of meaninglessness but does so in a manner whereby people do not stop and consider their lives and their routines, it is not THEIR fault but the simple functions of society. It's like blaming the individual for being a sexist in a time when women did not have equal rights to men. That was just society. It was the rules. It was the way life was. A tiny, tiny number of people question the very fabric of society. Most go on about their daily lives without even considering the way things work and how fair they are. Xx_Hopeless_xX
Society has nothing to do with it...your life is meaningless..as are most of our lives...we die and no one cares..
The last part of your statement is not true..At all. People are remembered for a very long time, for the impact they made on other lives. Whether it be a celebrity or some random neighborhood guy, if they did something great, they will be remembered, even when they are gone.
Um Yeah really. Life is what you make of it. It's your life personally is meaningless, that problem is on you and only you.
That's very close-minded if you ask me. If that's the case MILLIONS of people have meaningless lives and it's their own fault. Only when you're dealing with THAT many people it's clearly part of the fabric of society isn't it, not the individuals themselves? And as such it obviously is a sociological problem. If life is only as good as you decide to make it, doesn't that mean that the problem with meaninglessness is on a purely individual basis. Others achieve goals while still others fail miserably, and in the end, it all comes down to the individual, and what they did to get themselves where they are now.
Nope; one's internal life is, you know, one's own responsibility. If you choose to abdicate ownership and responsibility for yourself and your sense of meaning over to societal mores, that is a decision you have made. Congratulations!xaos
No it isn't. You act as if the very fabric of society is a contract people sit down and read and then decide whether or not they want to sign up to it or not. In the real world, people are born and raised to live a certain way, they live almost exactly as they were raised to live, as everyone else around them does, then they die leaving children who do the same thing; work, buy stuff with their money, die. We can act like that's a choice people make but it really isn't any more so than a child born and raised in a slum chooses to live that way. A very good example of this comes from a guy who wrote a book about the drugs trade in Baltimore. He made a really good point when asked why he didn't do something to get clean and stop living on the streets sooner. 'You act like every day we wake up and think, man, i'm going to change my life today! That aint real. Every day i woke up in an abandoned house and i just KNEW without thinking about it that i was supposed to go get $10, get my fix by the end of the day and then go to bed. That wasn't a choice, that was just my existence. That was my purpose. It takes something monumental to snap you out. You're programmed to accept the cards you're dealt and do what you're supposed to do.'
One thing I hate is the apathy so many people show for the really important things. **** going down and people are mostly concered with who got knocked out of the Big Brother house or what celebritys are going out with eachother.
[QUOTE="Ninja-Kitteh"][QUOTE="xaos"]Let's take a different tact? What would make life "meaningful"? And how would "society" make that happen?xaos
Again your approach to this seems to be like a doctor trying to cure a disease. It's not that simple. And again, when someone acknowledges a negative trait in society they are not claiming that that thing could easily be 'fixed' if 'society' just changed. That's obviously not achievable. Well, since your approach seems to be to have "diagnosed" what you deem to be a fault, what is the point of discussing it if not to find a remedy? In short, what was your purpose in posting the thread if you don't want people to disagree that there is a problem and you don't want to discuss possible solutions to the purported problem? Because every discussion is not 'here's a problem let's fix it'. Sometimes people like to talk about broader things like life, the universe and purpose. It's how philosophy got started. The thread's purpose was not 'hey i think my life is meaningless please disagree and prove me wrong.' The purpose of the thread was 'hey, here's a step backward and a look at the world we've created and live in. What do you think of it? I think it sucks...'
One thing I hate is the apathy so many people show for the really important things. **** going down and people are mostly concered with who got knocked out of the Big Brother house or what celebritys are going out with eachother.
Troqe
Exactly. It pains me to think of the number of days i've wasted on mindless, trivial nonsense.
Life always has been meaningless, it's up to you to give it meaning. I see what you mean about society though, the majority of people tend to follow the standard pattern without thinking about what they actually want.
[QUOTE="xaos"]Nope; one's internal life is, you know, one's own responsibility. If you choose to abdicate ownership and responsibility for yourself and your sense of meaning over to societal mores, that is a decision you have made. Congratulations!Ninja-Kitteh
No it isn't. You act as if the very fabric of society is a contract people sit down and read and then decide whether or not they want to sign up to it or not. In the real world, people are born and raised to live a certain way, they live almost exactly as they were raised to live, as everyone else around them does, then they die leaving children who do the same thing; work, buy stuff with their money, die. We can act like that's a choice people make but it really isn't any more so than a child born and raised in a slum chooses to live that way. A very good example of this comes from a guy who wrote a book about the drugs trade in Baltimore. He made a really good point when asked why he didn't do something to get clean and stop living on the streets sooner. 'You act like every day we wake up and think, man, i'm going to change my life today! That aint real. Every day i woke up in an abandoned house and i just KNEW without thinking about it that i was supposed to go get $10, get my fix by the end of the day and then go to bed. That wasn't a choice, that was just my existence. That was my purpose. It takes something monumental to snap you out. You're programmed to accept the cards you're dealt and do what you're supposed to do.' *shrug* Simple acquiescence is utterly alien to me; living a life of quiet desperation *IS* a choice and the reason I know that is that there are people who changes their lives for better and for worse all the time. Also, you act like work and material possessions are the only things one can get meaning from. That is also pretty alien to me. I work and am pretty well compensated for it, but in terms of the things I consider significant in my life, it's pretty far down. I'm curious how old you are; I ask because it reminds me of an existential crisis I had in my late teens.
As many people have pointed out, life is what you make it. If you find it meaningnless, then maybe you're doing it wrong. I live in western society and I have found great value and content in what I do and how I live. I don't make millions of dollars a year, and I don't drive fancy cars or live in an enormous house. Some people set their goals on those things, but I don't. The benefit of living in a western society is that you can set your own goals. You can define what makes you happy and what is of value to you.
Obviously people change. I gave you an example myself of a person who changed. But that's why it's a broad problem with society in general, not individuals, because those who DO break away and do something totally different and essentially start an entire new way of living are one in a million. My example of how i'd love to just abandon my education and future job, leave the city and live somewhere simpler is completely doable. But that doesn't change the millions upon millions of people who go about their lives never considering the purpose and value of their existence. Eating, working, shopping, sleeping. Whether we choose to accept it or not that is life for untold millions in our world. They dont *choose* to do that over anything else, they just fail to consider that there's even a choice to be made because much like the guy who automatically lived his every day life trying to score drugs money, that's simply how they're inately programmed to operate on a day to day basis. Also i'm not saying work and material possessions are what people get meaning from i'm saying it's the exact opposite; they're meaningless. Utterly trivial, pointless and useless yet for practically all of us that is the life goal. From the minute we set foot in school the objective is to get good grades, get a good job, earn decent money and buy yourself nice stuff.
If life is meaningless, that's on you. Not society.
Pirate700
Um, not really. If society functions in a manner which creates and incubates that meaninglessness i think it's very much a sociological issue, not an individual one.Um Yeah really. Life is what you make of it. It's your life personally is meaningless, that problem is on you and only you. Pirate FTW you are on fire today
[QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="Ninja-Kitteh"] Again your approach to this seems to be like a doctor trying to cure a disease. It's not that simple. And again, when someone acknowledges a negative trait in society they are not claiming that that thing could easily be 'fixed' if 'society' just changed. That's obviously not achievable. Ninja-Kitteh
Well, since your approach seems to be to have "diagnosed" what you deem to be a fault, what is the point of discussing it if not to find a remedy? In short, what was your purpose in posting the thread if you don't want people to disagree that there is a problem and you don't want to discuss possible solutions to the purported problem? Because every discussion is not 'here's a problem let's fix it'. Sometimes people like to talk about broader things like life, the universe and purpose. It's how philosophy got started. The thread's purpose was not 'hey i think my life is meaningless please disagree and prove me wrong.' The purpose of the thread was 'hey, here's a step backward and a look at the world we've created and live in. What do you think of it? I think it sucks...' The problem is that you're not really taking a step back. You're looking at the world through a negative perspective. Of course, you're going to think it sucks. You're making erroneous assumptions about what western society values and what people view as success.
Um, not really. If society functions in a manner which creates and incubates that meaninglessness i think it's very much a sociological issue, not an individual one.Ninja-Kitteh
Um Yeah really. Life is what you make of it. It's your life personally is meaningless, that problem is on you and only you. Pirate FTW you are on fire today Only i respectfully disagree. I dont think he even understood the point of my post as it's not about ME but what i have observed to be the workings of the western world.
[QUOTE="sonicare"]life is what you make it.Ninja-Kitteh
This is far too cliched and unrealistic an expression. Not really... My life COULD have gone south in a hurry (given the influences of this 'horrible Western society') But I CHOSE to change and more out of life Existentialism FTW
The problem is that you're not really taking a step back. You're looking at the world through a negative perspective. Of course, you're going to think it sucks. You're making erroneous assumptions about what western society values and what people view as success.sonicare
It is very negative, but not deliberately so. I'm a very optimistic person. You cant help but be negative when you describe what's in front of you. I dont think it's erroneous to say taht western society values getting a job, earning money and buying cool stuff. That's the foundation of our world. It literally wouldn't even work if we weren't all doing that every day.
[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="Pirate700"]Um Yeah really. Life is what you make of it. It's your life personally is meaningless, that problem is on you and only you.
Ninja-Kitteh
Pirate FTW you are on fire today Only i respectfully disagree. I dont think he even understood the point of my post as it's not about ME but what i have observed to be the workings of the western world. So you are basing your ASSUMPTIONS on what you THINK happens 'inside' others...sounds pretty reliable
[QUOTE="sonicare"]life is what you make it.Ninja-Kitteh
This is far too cliched and unrealistic an expression. Not at all. You're the prime mover in your life. No one else has as much control over how your life goes than you. Certainly external forces contribute, but nothing will affect your life more than your own actions and your perspective. You can sit back and blame everything else and feel sorry for yourself, but in the end, the person with the most power to change that is you. I've worked with people with horrible health problems - paraplegics, blind people, and other serious disabilities. But what has impressed me the most about the majority of these people, is their incredibly positive attitudes and take on life. You'd think they would just give up and blame the world, but they don't. They find activities and occupations that give them fulfillment. I think all the tools are out there for each person to find fulfillment or purpose. It's just not easy for everyone - no one's going to lead you down a straight path to that goal.
Nothing is objectively meaningful. What is meaningful for you personally is that which you value and which brings you happiness, which is unique to any given individual. If you have not found that yet, that is not the fault of western society; someone could have been just as equally unable to find that which they would have deemed meaningful at any point in history.
Not really... My life COULD have gone south in a hurry (given the influences of this 'horrible Western society') But I CHOSE to change and more out of life Existentialism FTWrawsavon
Again though that's a personal example, which is just too simplistic an approach. If you live your whole life working hard to get good grades, a good job, a nice house and then to fill that house with possessions, raise a family in the same world and have them go on to do exactly the same thing how was life 'what you made it'? It wasn't what you made it at all, but the one you just lived because that's the way life and the world you were born into functioned. For example, if a worker ant could talk would you tell it 'life is what you make it'?
Nothing is objectively meaningful. What is meaningful for you personally is that which you value and which brings you happiness, which is unique to any given individual. If you have not found that yet, that is not the fault of western society; someone could have been just as equally unable to find that which they would have deemed meaningful at any point in history.
GabuEx
It's not really about happiness. People can live completely pointless lives and die perfectly happy with their run.
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