Majority of Americans Support G@y Marriage AND Adoption by G@y Couples

I don't see a problem with homosexual marriage, but there may be issues with adoption i.e. social ostracization of the child

Firebird-5

[QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

I don't see a problem with homosexual marriage, but there may be issues with adoption i.e. social ostracization of the child

Theokhoth

I don't know about you, but I can see a child being bullied in school if he or she reveals that they are a. adopted and b. their parents are homosexual. possibly parents may tell their children to 'stay away' from Tommy, or 'don't get along with' Sam

As morbid as it sounds, the only thing that's holding back the full legalization of gay marriage in America at this point is old people not dying. :P

GabuEx

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"] The American Psychological Association is the single most qualified organization ON EARTH in regards to psychological study. Calling them "bias" and "they might still be wrong" is quite sad.Theokhoth

Ah its politicized and overrated just like the American Medical Association. Associations are only as good as their members.

And Ecclesia Catholica is going on the teaching of the Lord, The Way, The Truth and the Life. Following the Truth is by definition unbiased.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

I don't see a problem with homosexual marriage, but there may be issues with adoption i.e. social ostracization of the child

Firebird-5

I don't know about you, but I can see a child being bullied in school if he or she reveals that they are a. adopted and b. their parents are homosexual. possibly parents may tell their children to 'stay away' from Tommy, or 'don't get along with' Sam

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="whipassmt"]

Ah its politicized and overrated just like the American Medical Association. Associations are only as good as their members.

whipassmt

And Ecclesia Catholica is going on the teaching of the Lord, The Way, The Truth and the Life. Following the Truth is by definition unbiased.

[QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"] Nope. Children of gay couples don't experience any more or less problems than children raised by straight couples.Theokhoth

I don't know about you, but I can see a child being bullied in school if he or she reveals that they are a. adopted and b. their parents are homosexual. possibly parents may tell their children to 'stay away' from Tommy, or 'don't get along with' Sam

I can't read that article, Est scriptus in Anglicem, yuck!

[QUOTE="STAR_Admiral"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"] There is no "gap in the child's upbringing." You have absolutely no basis to make such an assertion. And there is no right to adopt; there is, however, the right to be considered for adoption regardless of race, gender, religion or sexual orientation. Just because you're gay doesn't mean you're disqualified for adoption.Theokhoth

I am a member of the scientific community. I know what bias is. any paper that is not in a PEER REVIEWED journal holds zero merit in the scientific world.

[QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"] Nope. Children of gay couples don't experience any more or less problems than children raised by straight couples.Theokhoth

I don't know about you, but I can see a child being bullied in school if he or she reveals that they are a. adopted and b. their parents are homosexual. possibly parents may tell their children to 'stay away' from Tommy, or 'don't get along with' Sam

as long as they are pretenses for bullying to occur, there is a problem. and the study you linked does, in fact, confirm my thoughts

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="STAR_Admiral"] the lack of a mother/father figure is a gap. Men and women are different. There are some aspects of parenting that simply cannot be provide by either sex. Obivously teaching, playing can be done by either. but what if a son needs a father's advice about dating girls.. , or the chats that can only happen between a mother and daughter. etc.

STAR_Admiral

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

I don't know about you, but I can see a child being bullied in school if he or she reveals that they are a. adopted and b. their parents are homosexual. possibly parents may tell their children to 'stay away' from Tommy, or 'don't get along with' Sam

Firebird-5

as long as they are pretenses for bullying to occur, there is a problem. and the study you linked does, in fact, confirm my thoughts

[QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"] Children are bullied all the time for tons of reasons. This bullying does not have more or less of a lasting impact than the bullying of straight kids for having too-long hair. You should really read the article.Theokhoth

as long as they are pretenses for bullying to occur, there is a problem. and the study you linked does, in fact, confirm my thoughts

I'm not saying children shouldn't be adopted: I imagine that would have a far greater impact than bullying would ever have. But honestly, traditional families should be prioritised if this ever becomes a problem. I understand the need to break new idological ground, but you have to weigh that with the child's wellbeing.

am a member of the scientific community. I know what bias is. any paper that is not in a PEER REVIEWED journal holds zero merit in the scientific world.

STAR_Admiral

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

as long as they are pretenses for bullying to occur, there is a problem. and the study you linked does, in fact, confirm my thoughts

Firebird-5

I'm not saying children shouldn't be adopted: I imagine that would have a far greater impact than bullying would ever have. But honestly, traditional families should be prioritised if this ever becomes a problem. I understand the need to break new idological ground, but you have to weigh that with the child's wellbeing.

[QUOTE="STAR_Admiral"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"] Once again, you have no basis to make such an assertion. EVERY SINGLE STUDY on the matter says that there is no difference in parenting between gay couples and straight couples. My dad died when I was eight; I learned about sex, dating, and girls (and boys) from my (female) mother. I turned out just fine.Theokhoth

[QUOTE="STAR_Admiral"]

am a member of the scientific community. I know what bias is. any paper that is not in a PEER REVIEWED journal holds zero merit in the scientific world.

Theokhoth

[QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"] You read the first couple of sentences. You should continue reading it. Pretenses for bullying is not a valid reason to ban people from adopting kids, even if this bullying had any sort of lasting impact.Theokhoth

I'm not saying children shouldn't be adopted: I imagine that would have a far greater impact than bullying would ever have. But honestly, traditional families should be prioritised if this ever becomes a problem. I understand the need to break new idological ground, but you have to weigh that with the child's wellbeing.

'on-average positive terms' followed up with an admission that there were cases of 'encounters with anti-gay remarks from peers' suggests that there are problems, no matter how small, which would be eliminated if the couple were not homosexual. it follows that traditional couples should be prioritised over gay couples, at least in the present time, no? unless you are suggesting that the politics of equal opportunity should be extended to childcare, I wouldn't want to take that risk.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="STAR_Admiral"] Do you relialize how biased that report is? They compared gay parents to straight parents. do you not see the flaw in this assessment yet? Do you know what a control group is? To obtain an accurate results one must compare gay parents to straight parents with adopted children. This study is biased because all gay parents had to go through a stringent adoption agency and are thus always of good financial and social status. The group of striaght couples however include's those of low class, low income, or abusive familes. So their conclusion that homo couples are less abusive than hetero couples is obviously biased. I have yet to see a proper report. Show me that the adopted children of straight and gay couples have equal grades in school, equal success in life, equal occurence of abuse, etc, and i'l believe you. STAR_Admiral

This is a social issue, what scientists would be qualified to peer review a social paper? Can you provide us with a link for a peer reviwed paper they shows gay marrage in a bad light please?

What area of science do you work in?

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

[QUOTE="STAR_Admiral"] Do you relialize how biased that report is? They compared gay parents to straight parents. do you not see the flaw in this assessment yet? Do you know what a control group is? To obtain an accurate results one must compare gay parents to straight parents with adopted children. This study is biased because all gay parents had to go through a stringent adoption agency and are thus always of good financial and social status. The group of striaght couples however include's those of low class, low income, or abusive familes. So their conclusion that homo couples are less abusive than hetero couples is obviously biased. I have yet to see a proper report. Show me that the adopted children of straight and gay couples have equal grades in school, equal success in life, equal occurence of abuse, etc, and i'l believe you. STAR_Admiral

Allen, M., & Burrell, N. (1996).Comparing the impact of homosexual and heterosexual parents on children: Meta-analysis of existing research. Journal of Homosexuality, 32, 19-35. Courts determine custody and visitation on the basis of the "best interests of the child." Current judicial rulings in some jurisdictions reflect a bias against awarding custody or granting visitation rights to homosexual parents, favoring the heterosexual parent or heterosexual relative of the child(ren). Should the sexual orientation of the parent play a part in the determination of custody or visitation in order to protect the child? This meta-analysis summarizes the available quantitative literature comparing the impact of heterosexual and homosexual parents, using a variety of measures, on the child(ren). The analyses examine parenting practices, the emotional well-being of the child, and the sexual orientation of the child. The results demonstrate no differences on any measures between the heterosexual and homosexual parents regarding parenting styles, emotional adjustment, and sexual orientation of the child(ren). In other words, the data fail to support the continuation of a bias against homosexual parents by any court. (PsycINFO Database Record. Copyright © 2002 by the American Psychological Association. All rights reserved.)

Anderssen, N., Amlie, C., & Ytteroy, E. A. (2002). Outcomes for children with lesbian or gay parents: A review of studies from 1978 to 2000. Scandinavian Journal of Psychology, 43, 335-351. Reviewed 23 empirical studies published between 1978 and 2000 on nonclinical children raised by lesbian mothers or gay fathers (one Belgian/Dutch, one Danish, three British, and 18 North American). Twenty studies reported on offspring of lesbian mothers, and three on offspring of gay fathers. The studies encompassed a total of 615 offspring (age range 1.5-44 yrs.) of lesbian mothers or gay fathers and 387 controls, who were assessed by psychological tests, questionnaires, or interviews. Seven types of outcomes were found to be typical: emotional functioning, sexual preference, stigmatization, gender role behavior, behavioral adjustment, gender identity, and cognitive functioning. Children raised by lesbian mothers or gay fathers did not systematically differ from other children on any of the outcomes. The studies indicate that children raised by lesbian women do not experience adverse outcomes compared with other children. The same holds for children raised by gay men, but more studies should be done. (PsycINFO Database Record. Copyright © 2002 by the American Psychological Association. All rights reserved.)

Gottman, J. S. (1990). Children of gay and lesbian parents. In F. W. Bozett & M. B. Sussman (Eds.), Homosexuality and family relations (pp. 177-196). New York: Harrington Park Press. Reviews research literature on children of homosexual (HS) parents, including comparisons with children of heterosexual parents. Children of HS parents did not appear deviant in gender identity, sexual orientation, or social adjustment. Issues that emerged during their upbringing related more to society's rejection of homosexuality than to poor parent-child relationships. Most social adjustment problems occurred in both groups and were commonly related to family history of divorce. Results are supported by J. Schwartz's (unpublished manuscript) investigation of the above variables in adult-aged daughters in relation to mothers' sexual orientations, with a focus on role modeling theory. (PsycINFO Database Record. Copyright © 2004 by the American Psychological Association. All rights reserved.)

The APA publishes tons of scientific journals and studies all over the world; they are the single most reliable source on any psychological matter on the planet. I'll take their word over yours any day.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

I'm not saying children shouldn't be adopted: I imagine that would have a far greater impact than bullying would ever have. But honestly, traditional families should be prioritised if this ever becomes a problem. I understand the need to break new idological ground, but you have to weigh that with the child's wellbeing.

Firebird-5

'on-average positive terms' followed up with an admission that there were cases of 'encounters with anti-gay remarks from peers' suggests that there are problems, no matter how small, which would be eliminated if the couple were not homosexual. it follows that traditional couples should be prioritised over gay couples, at least in the present time, no? unless you are suggesting that the politics of equal opportunity should be extended to childcare, I wouldn't want to take that risk.

[QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"] There is absolutely no data suggesting that the child's well-being is adversely affected one way or the other by having gay parents. That's kinda my point.Theokhoth

'on-average positive terms' followed up with an admission that there were cases of 'encounters with anti-gay remarks from peers' suggests that there are problems, no matter how small, which would be eliminated if the couple were not homosexual. it follows that traditional couples should be prioritised over gay couples, at least in the present time, no? unless you are suggesting that the politics of equal opportunity should be extended to childcare, I wouldn't want to take that risk.

why? as long as the benefits outweigh the costs, or are equal to, I agree that the argument holds no weight. but looking at it objectively, it just adds yet another reason for discrimination

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="STAR_Admiral"]

am a member of the scientific community. I know what bias is. any paper that is not in a PEER REVIEWED journal holds zero merit in the scientific world.

STAR_Admiral

[QUOTE="STAR_Admiral"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"] Oh, wow. :lol: It's amazing the straws people grasp at to dismiss studies they simply disagree with. :lol: The APA biased? :lol:

tenaka2

This is a social issue, what scientists would be qualified to peer review a social paper? Can you provide us with a link for a peer reviwed paper they shows gay marrage in a bad light please?

What area of science do you work in?

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

[QUOTE="STAR_Admiral"] assuming they are not biased just because they are the APA is foolish. Organizations only have as much integrity as their members. This paper was written and published by the APA, it is not in a PEER REVIEWED journal. ask any of your professors in school and you will hear that studies not in peer reviewed journals hold zero merit. STAR_Admiral

This is a social issue, what scientists would be qualified to peer review a social paper? Can you provide us with a link for a peer reviwed paper they shows gay marrage in a bad light please?

What area of science do you work in?

no paper of them in a bad light is required. They are the ones trying to prove they are competent to raise children. a lack of negative evidence does not mean they are competent. STAR_Admiral

Are you not going to answer the question, in what area of science do you work?

Can I ask what is your personal opinion on gay marrage?

[QUOTE="STAR_Admiral"]no paper of them in a bad light is required. They are the ones trying to prove they are competent to raise children. a lack of negative evidence does not mean they are competent. tenaka2

Are you not going to answer the question, in what area of science do you work?

Can I ask what is your personal opinion on gay marrage?

It should be bared in mind that, with regard to adoption:

"A child is not something owed to one, but is a gift. the "supreme gift of marriage" is a human person. A child may not be considered a piece of property, an idea to which an alleged "right to a child" would lead. In this area, only the child possesses genuine rights: the right "to be the fruit of the specific act of the conjugal love of his parents," and "the right to be respected as a person from the moment of his conception."

By the way, this quote is actually originally about in Vitro Fertilization.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="STAR_Admiral"] the lack of a mother/father figure is a gap. Men and women are different. There are some aspects of parenting that simply cannot be provide by either sex. Obivously teaching, playing can be done by either. but what if a son needs a father's advice about dating girls.. , or the chats that can only happen between a mother and daughter. etc.

whipassmt

Studies are limited by the bias of those doing the study and by the very nature of studies which can't examine everything.

But if there was "no difference" betwixt gay couples and straight couples, then wouldn't the gay couples consist of a gay man and lesbian (say Rosie O'Donell and Elton John) and not two men (Elton and his man) or two women (Ella and Portia, who should really leave Ellen and go back to her rightful husband).

And even if he hadnt clarified, its quite a cheap shot to "correct" him on that.

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"] Once again, you have no basis to make such an assertion. EVERY SINGLE STUDY on the matter says that there is no difference in parenting between gay couples and straight couples. My dad died when I was eight; I learned about sex, dating, and girls (and boys) from my (female) mother. I turned out just fine.Teenaged

Studies are limited by the bias of those doing the study and by the very nature of studies which can't examine everything.

But if there was "no difference" betwixt gay couples and straight couples, then wouldn't the gay couples consist of a gay man and lesbian (say Rosie O'Donell and Elton John) and not two men (Elton and his man) or two women (Ella and Portia, who should really leave Ellen and go back to her rightful husband).

And even if he hadnt clarified, its quite a cheap shot to "correct" him on that.

And for another cheap shot you forgot to put your 'postraphe in the word "hadn't".

I would like to remind the public that Adoption agencies are a service for orphaned children. They are not a service for "potential parents". I see that sometimes people forget this. Adoption agencies do not care about being fair to parents, they care about providinng the child with a good home. I agree that a homosexual parents is better than no parents. But if the number of parents looking to adopt outnumbers the orphans, then straight couples should always be given preference. Why? once again, let me state it is about the children, not the parents. A hetero home would be free of the bullying / hard feelings from other children, and thats a good enough difference to chose the straight couple.

Here is a scenario. you are an adoption agency and you have two orphans. One couple that makes $300 000 a year comes in. Another couple that makes $50k a year comes in. Assuming they are equal in good manners and other qualities, What to do? I would give both orphans to the 300k couple, as they may provide the best future. It is not about being fair to the parents, and giving each couple one child. Its about the children.

I always hear single parents even with high incomes complaining about not being able to adopt in some cases. Its not about you, get that through your head. The same goes for homosexual couples. Adoption agencies are not a service for adults looking for children. They are a service for orphans looking for parents. The parents who provide the most comfortable life, with the least abuse (including abuse from other students at school) wins.

I would like to remind the public that Adoption agencies are a service for orphaned children. They are not a service for "potential parents". I see that sometimes people forget this. Adoption agencies do not care about being fair to parents, they care about providinng the child with a good home. I agree that a homosexual parents is better than no parents. But if the number of parents looking to adopt outnumbers the orphans, then straight couples should always be given preference. Why? once again, let me state it is about the children, not the parents. A hetero home would be free of the bullying / hard feelings from other children, and thats a good enough difference to chose the straight couple.

Here is a scenario. you are an adoption agency and you have two orphans. One couple that makes $300 000 a year comes in. Another couple that makes $50k a year comes in. Assuming they are equal in good manners and other qualities, What to do? I would give both orphans to the 300k couple, as they may provide the best future. It is not about being fair to the parents, and giving each couple one child. Its about the children.

I always hear single parents even with high incomes complaining about not being able to adopt in some cases. Its not about you, get that through your head. The same goes for homosexual couples. Adoption agencies are not a service for adults looking for children. They are a service for orphans looking for parents. The parents who provide the most comfortable life, with the least abuse (including abuse from other students at school) wins.

STAR_Admiral

I agree, and all my arguments have simply been dismissed as 'non-valid'. All I get is a link to an APA report which, while I agree there are optimistic prospects for same-sex adoption in the future, demonstrates that there is still lingering if not larger discrimination.

I would like to remind the public that Adoption agencies are a service for orphaned children. They are not a service for "potential parents". I see that sometimes people forget this. Adoption agencies do not care about being fair to parents, they care about providinng the child with a good home. I agree that a homosexual parents is better than no parents. But if the number of parents looking to adopt outnumbers the orphans, then straight couples should always be given preference. Why? once again, let me state it is about the children, not the parents. A hetero home would be free of the bullying / hard feelings from other children, and thats a good enough difference to chose the straight couple.

Here is a scenario. you are an adoption agency and you have two orphans. One couple that makes $300 000 a year comes in. Another couple that makes $50k a year comes in. Assuming they are equal in good manners and other qualities, What to do? I would give both orphans to the 300k couple, as they may provide the best future. It is not about being fair to the parents, and giving each couple one child. Its about the children.

I always hear single parents even with high incomes complaining about not being able to adopt in some cases. Its not about you, get that through your head. The same goes for homosexual couples. Adoption agencies are not a service for adults looking for children. They are a service for orphans looking for parents. The parents who provide the most comfortable life, with the least abuse (including abuse from other students at school) wins.

STAR_Admiral

[QUOTE="STAR_Admiral"]

I would like to remind the public that Adoption agencies are a service for orphaned children. They are not a service for "potential parents". I see that sometimes people forget this. Adoption agencies do not care about being fair to parents, they care about providinng the child with a good home. I agree that a homosexual parents is better than no parents. But if the number of parents looking to adopt outnumbers the orphans, then straight couples should always be given preference. Why? once again, let me state it is about the children, not the parents. A hetero home would be free of the bullying / hard feelings from other children, and thats a good enough difference to chose the straight couple.

Here is a scenario. you are an adoption agency and you have two orphans. One couple that makes $300 000 a year comes in. Another couple that makes $50k a year comes in. Assuming they are equal in good manners and other qualities, What to do? I would give both orphans to the 300k couple, as they may provide the best future. It is not about being fair to the parents, and giving each couple one child. Its about the children.

I always hear single parents even with high incomes complaining about not being able to adopt in some cases. Its not about you, get that through your head. The same goes for homosexual couples. Adoption agencies are not a service for adults looking for children. They are a service for orphans looking for parents. The parents who provide the most comfortable life, with the least abuse (including abuse from other students at school) wins.

Firebird-5

I agree, and all my arguments have simply been dismissed as 'non-valid'. All I get is a link to an APA report which, while I agree there are optimistic prospects for same-sex adoption in the future, demonstrates that there is still lingering if not larger discrimination.

[QUOTE="Firebird-5"]

[QUOTE="STAR_Admiral"]

I would like to remind the public that Adoption agencies are a service for orphaned children. They are not a service for "potential parents". I see that sometimes people forget this. Adoption agencies do not care about being fair to parents, they care about providinng the child with a good home. I agree that a homosexual parents is better than no parents. But if the number of parents looking to adopt outnumbers the orphans, then straight couples should always be given preference. Why? once again, let me state it is about the children, not the parents. A hetero home would be free of the bullying / hard feelings from other children, and thats a good enough difference to chose the straight couple.

Here is a scenario. you are an adoption agency and you have two orphans. One couple that makes $300 000 a year comes in. Another couple that makes $50k a year comes in. Assuming they are equal in good manners and other qualities, What to do? I would give both orphans to the 300k couple, as they may provide the best future. It is not about being fair to the parents, and giving each couple one child. Its about the children.

I always hear single parents even with high incomes complaining about not being able to adopt in some cases. Its not about you, get that through your head. The same goes for homosexual couples. Adoption agencies are not a service for adults looking for children. They are a service for orphans looking for parents. The parents who provide the most comfortable life, with the least abuse (including abuse from other students at school) wins.

whipassmt

I agree, and all my arguments have simply been dismissed as 'non-valid'. All I get is a link to an APA report which, while I agree there are optimistic prospects for same-sex adoption in the future, demonstrates that there is still lingering if not larger discrimination.

I am fully confident in the abilities of a qualified medical practitioner, although I would prefer something slightly more concrete to assuage any doubt. Honestly, I hope it is a positive trend.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

Studies are limited by the bias of those doing the study and by the very nature of studies which can't examine everything.

But if there was "no difference" betwixt gay couples and straight couples, then wouldn't the gay couples consist of a gay man and lesbian (say Rosie O'Donell and Elton John) and not two men (Elton and his man) or two women (Ella and Portia, who should really leave Ellen and go back to her rightful husband).

whipassmt

And even if he hadnt clarified, its quite a cheap shot to "correct" him on that.

And for another cheap shot you forgot to put your 'postraphe in the word "hadn't".

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]He said "no difference in parenting". :|

And even if he hadnt clarified, its quite a cheap shot to "correct" him on that.

Teenaged

And for another cheap shot you forgot to put your 'postraphe in the word "hadn't".

Malarkey. The only things that's true is that you erred in grammar by forgetting to use the 'postraphe when you should've.whipassmt

At this point I think you're doing it intentionally.

I thank god these surveys are completely wrong. Its laughable people are trying to make this ok. Next thing you know we'll have pedophile parades, and people will be pushing for pedophiles to adopt. Theyre people too.Mephers

There is quite a difference between two consenting adults and pedophiles. Wouldn't you agree that it's intellectually dishones to ignore big differences?

Also, how do you know the surveys are wrong? Do you have any proof?

I can go into threads with hot topics like this everytime and on the last page all I see for the most part is long blocks of quotes.

I can go into threads with hot topics like this everytime and on the last page all I see for the most part is long blocks of quotes.

SilentSoprano

I thank god these surveys are completely wrong. Its laughable people are trying to make this ok. Next thing you know we'll have pedophile parades, and people will be pushing for pedophiles to adopt. Theyre people too.Mephers

And there is a group that supports gay ephebophilia (i.e. sexual relations between gay men and gay teens) called NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association)

[QUOTE="Mephers"]I thank god these surveys are completely wrong. Its laughable people are trying to make this ok. Next thing you know we'll have pedophile parades, and people will be pushing for pedophiles to adopt. Theyre people too.whipassmt

And there is a group that supports gay ephebophilia (i.e. sexual relations between gay men and gay teens) called NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association)

And your point is what?

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]Malarkey. The only things that's true is that you erred in grammar by forgetting to use the 'postraphe when you should've.Teenaged

At this point I think you're doing it intentionally.

[QUOTE="Mephers"]I thank god these surveys are completely wrong. Its laughable people are trying to make this ok. Next thing you know we'll have pedophile parades, and people will be pushing for pedophiles to adopt. Theyre people too.whipassmt

And there is a group that supports gay ephebophilia (i.e. sexual relations between gay men and gay teens) called NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association)