Morals without God?

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="redstorm72"]

I don't care where anyone comes from, there should be a universal truth in that "hurting people is wrong". If that's not true for your or other peoples cultures, then I have completely lost faith in the human race.

redstorm72

Sorry, but that's not the universal truth that we go by in the western world. We kill people by the thousands in wars, and we execute criminals in many states. We're no better.

I don't agree with either. Executions should be outlawed in all states and War should only be a last resort. However, in the case of war, at least most modern nations only target armed combatants and not civilians.

That in no way excuses them for what they do. The governments and armies make a concious decision to start an all-out conflict against each other, in which thousands (sometimes millions of people die). There is nothing more wrong than that.. unless directly commanded to do it by God, IMO.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="GazaAli"]

Yes hurting people is wrong, so don't commit adultery. You know how it is, say no evil hear no evil.

hartsickdiscipl

If hurting people is wrong then stoning them to death is wrong (as that's pretty damn hurtful).

The intial wrong and violation of the marriage arrangement has to be answered.

With divorce, by the party wronged. Not by other people in whom it is none of their business.

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

Ask yourself: "what would Jesus do?"

worlock77

He would follow God's law and do what he was told to do.

Hence when he turned the mob back from stoning the adultress huh?

Case by case basis. Not to mention that Jesus was an agent of the most high himself. I think he had a bit more latitude than we do.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

You're forgetting what my faith is based on. It's based on the idea that higher beings gave us the laws laid down in the Bible and other holy books. That being said, if God tells us to stone the adulterer, he has decided their fate.. not me.

I'd rather God just kill them himself, but I'll follow his commands if he tells me to do it.

hartsickdiscipl

Ask yourself: "what would Jesus do?"

He would follow God's law and do what he was told to do.

I submit this- If at any point in our lifetimes highly-advanced E.T.'s are accepted to be real, and that they are visiting our planet.. There is your proof of God. I believe the Bible and other ancient holy writings are about more advanced beings visiting us from space or other dimensions.

hartsickdiscipl

You completely lost me there. Care to explain this? How does that prove anything? I don't see how hypotheses are helping your case.

[QUOTE="tocool340"][QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

That's the beauty of it. I won't do anything with them. God will decide. Humans don't have the right to decide each other's fates.

hartsickdiscipl

Read my reply to the other poster that thought the same thing.

You are contradicting yourself, whether you want to admit it or not.

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

If hurting people is wrong then stoning them to death is wrong (as that's pretty damn hurtful).

worlock77

The intial wrong and violation of the marriage arrangement has to be answered.

With divorce, by the party wronged. Not by other people in whom it is none of their business.

That just goes to show that you don't think the adultery was as serious an offense as I do.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="GazaAli"]

Yes hurting people is wrong, so don't commit adultery. You know how it is, say no evil hear no evil.

hartsickdiscipl

If hurting people is wrong then stoning them to death is wrong (as that's pretty damn hurtful).

The intial wrong and violation of the marriage arrangement has to be answered.

Ever heard the saying "two wrongs don't make a right"?

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

He would follow God's law and do what he was told to do.

hartsickdiscipl

Hence when he turned the mob back from stoning the adultress huh?

Case by case basis. Not to mention that Jesus was an agent of the most high himself. I think he had a bit more latitude than we do.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

The intial wrong and violation of the marriage arrangement has to be answered.

hartsickdiscipl

With divorce, by the party wronged. Not by other people in whom it is none of their business.

That just goes to show that you don't think the adultery was as serious an offense as I do.

No, it just goes to show that I am a rational human being while you are not.

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

If hurting people is wrong then stoning them to death is wrong (as that's pretty damn hurtful).

redstorm72

The intial wrong and violation of the marriage arrangement has to be answered.

Ever heard the saying "two wrongs don't make a right"?

[QUOTE="redstorm72"]

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

Sorry, but that's not the universal truth that we go by in the western world. We kill people by the thousands in wars, and we execute criminals in many states. We're no better.

hartsickdiscipl

I don't agree with either. Executions should be outlawed in all states and War should only be a last resort. However, in the case of war, at least most modern nations only target armed combatants and not civilians.

That in no way excuses them for what they do. The governments and armies make a concious decision to start an all-out conflict against each other, in which thousands (sometimes millions of people die). There is nothing more wrong than that.. unless directly commanded to do it by God, IMO.

Directly commanded by God? So it's only ok to do wrong as long as God tells you to? :?

[QUOTE="redstorm72"]

Ever heard the saying "two wrongs don't make a right"?

GazaAli

Not really, punishment is not synonymous to "wrong".

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="redstorm72"]

I don't agree with either. Executions should be outlawed in all states and War should only be a last resort. However, in the case of war, at least most modern nations only target armed combatants and not civilians.

redstorm72

That in no way excuses them for what they do. The governments and armies make a concious decision to start an all-out conflict against each other, in which thousands (sometimes millions of people die). There is nothing more wrong than that.. unless directly commanded to do it by God, IMO.

Directly commanded by God? So it's only ok to do wrong as long as God tells you to? :?

[QUOTE="redstorm72"]

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

The intial wrong and violation of the marriage arrangement has to be answered.

GazaAli

Ever heard the saying "two wrongs don't make a right"?

Putting someone in jail for comiting a crime isn't wrong, but murdering them for the crime is.

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="tocool340"] :? I don't know if I'm misunderstanding you, but it seems like your contradicting yourself here...worlock77

Read my reply to the other poster that thought the same thing.

You are contradicting yourself, whether you want to admit it or not.

Let me put this simply- I would much rather God personally enforce his own laws by smiting sinners. However, if God's law (not the US law, not my state's law, not Chinese law, etc..) tells me to do it, I'll do it. There is no contradiction there. If I was told by God to punish a sinner, and I do it.. that's God's will being carried out through me. Not the will of man, but the will of God.

There's nothing contradictory about it. I seriously doubt if I'll ever by personally called-upon to strike down some sinners. Our society doesn't live under God's laws any more. They are based on and extrapolated on from the original laws passed down to us from God, but they are twisted and convoluted now.

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

With divorce, by the party wronged. Not by other people in whom it is none of their business.

worlock77

That just goes to show that you don't think the adultery was as serious an offense as I do.

No, it just goes to show that I am a rational human being while you are not.

Nonsense.

If I was told by God to punish a sinner, and I do it.. that's God's will being carried out through me. Not the will of man, but the will of God.

hartsickdiscipl

It's not the will of God, it's what you believe to be the will of what you believe to be God, which implies that you believe that there is a God.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

Read my reply to the other poster that thought the same thing.

hartsickdiscipl

You are contradicting yourself, whether you want to admit it or not.

Let me put this simply- I would much rather God personally enforce his own laws by smiting sinners. However, if God's law (not the US law, not my state's law, not Chinese law, etc..) tells me to do it, I'll do it. There is no contradiction there. If I was told by God to punish a sinner, and I do it.. that's God's will being carried out through me. Not the will of man, but the will of God.

There's nothing contradictory about it. I seriously doubt if I'll ever by personally called-upon to strike down some sinners. Our society doesn't live under God's laws any more. They are based on and extrapolated on from the original laws passed down to us from God, but they are twisted and convoluted now.

That just goes to show that you don't think the adultery was as serious an offense as I do.

hartsickdiscipl

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="redstorm72"]

I don't agree with either. Executions should be outlawed in all states and War should only be a last resort. However, in the case of war, at least most modern nations only target armed combatants and not civilians.

redstorm72

That in no way excuses them for what they do. The governments and armies make a concious decision to start an all-out conflict against each other, in which thousands (sometimes millions of people die). There is nothing more wrong than that.. unless directly commanded to do it by God, IMO.

Directly commanded by God? So it's only ok to do wrong as long as God tells you to? :?

Since God decides what's right and wrong in my world, he has the power to make exceptions, yes. It's not a hard concept.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

Read my reply to the other poster that thought the same thing.

hartsickdiscipl

You are contradicting yourself, whether you want to admit it or not.

Let me put this simply- I would much rather God personally enforce his own laws by smiting sinners. However, if God's law (not the US law, not my state's law, not Chinese law, etc..) tells me to do it, I'll do it. There is no contradiction there. If I was told by God to punish a sinner, and I do it.. that's God's will being carried out through me. Not the will of man, but the will of God.

There's nothing contradictory about it. I seriously doubt if I'll ever by personally called-upon to strike down some sinners. Our society doesn't live under God's laws any more. They are based on and extrapolated on from the original laws passed down to us from God, but they are twisted and convoluted now.

Nope, sorry, it's completely contradictory. Especially from someone who claims to be a Christian. Christ taught love, forgivness, and compassion. You seem to be filled with bloodlust and hatred.

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

That just goes to show that you don't think the adultery was as serious an offense as I do.

Genetic_Code

Sorry, but I put biblical law above your interpretation of Aristotle's words in relation to my view of adultery. It's not me who said people should be stoned for adultery. It's the Bible, which I believe to be God's law. Now, God may someday tell us that this is no longer the right way to punish adulterers, at which point I'll have to accept that.

Now, God may someday tell us that this is no longer the right way to punish adulterers, at which point I'll have to accept that.

hartsickdiscipl

He already did.

[QUOTE="redstorm72"]

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

That in no way excuses them for what they do. The governments and armies make a concious decision to start an all-out conflict against each other, in which thousands (sometimes millions of people die). There is nothing more wrong than that.. unless directly commanded to do it by God, IMO.

hartsickdiscipl

Directly commanded by God? So it's only ok to do wrong as long as God tells you to? :?

Since God decides what's right and wrong in my world, he has the power to make exceptions, yes. It's not a hard concept.

What? You have no ability to decide what's right and wrong for yourself? Your not even really a person then are you? Just a puppet for God. What's worse is that God isn't even telling you what's right and wrong, just a bunch of people interpreting his words 2000 thousand years ago.

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

You are contradicting yourself, whether you want to admit it or not.

worlock77

Let me put this simply- I would much rather God personally enforce his own laws by smiting sinners. However, if God's law (not the US law, not my state's law, not Chinese law, etc..) tells me to do it, I'll do it. There is no contradiction there. If I was told by God to punish a sinner, and I do it.. that's God's will being carried out through me. Not the will of man, but the will of God.

There's nothing contradictory about it. I seriously doubt if I'll ever by personally called-upon to strike down some sinners. Our society doesn't live under God's laws any more. They are based on and extrapolated on from the original laws passed down to us from God, but they are twisted and convoluted now.

Nope, sorry, it's completely contradictory. Especially from someone who claims to be a Christian. Christ taught love, forgivness, and compassion. You seem to be filled with bloodlust and hatred.

Did I say that I'm going to stone an adulterer? No.. but if Christ was ever in a position where God's law required him to do so, I'm sure he would have. Yes, he preached compassion and leading by example.. but bad things happen. Christ wasn't one of the high priests in his ancient Isreal, so he wouldn't have been called upon to enact these types of laws anyways. Relevant details my friend.

Sorry, but I put biblical law above your interpretation of Aristotle's words in relation to my view of adultery. It's not me who said people should be stoned for adultery. It's the Bible, which I believe to be God's law. Now, God may someday tell us that this is no longer the right way to punish adulterers, at which point I'll have to accept that.

hartsickdiscipl

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"] Now, God may someday tell us that this is no longer the right way to punish adulterers, at which point I'll have to accept that.

worlock77

He already did.

When was that?

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

Let me put this simply- I would much rather God personally enforce his own laws by smiting sinners. However, if God's law (not the US law, not my state's law, not Chinese law, etc..) tells me to do it, I'll do it. There is no contradiction there. If I was told by God to punish a sinner, and I do it.. that's God's will being carried out through me. Not the will of man, but the will of God.

There's nothing contradictory about it. I seriously doubt if I'll ever by personally called-upon to strike down some sinners. Our society doesn't live under God's laws any more. They are based on and extrapolated on from the original laws passed down to us from God, but they are twisted and convoluted now.

hartsickdiscipl

Nope, sorry, it's completely contradictory. Especially from someone who claims to be a Christian. Christ taught love, forgivness, and compassion. You seem to be filled with bloodlust and hatred.

Did I say that I'm going to stone an adulterer? No.. but if Christ was ever in a position where God's law required him to do so, I'm sure he would have. Yes, he preached compassion and leading by example.. but bad things happen. Christ wasn't one of the high priests in his ancient Isreal, so he wouldn't have been called upon to enact these types of laws anyways. Relevant details my friend.

Christ was God in human form, so if anyone were to enact these laws it would have been him.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"] Now, God may someday tell us that this is no longer the right way to punish adulterers, at which point I'll have to accept that.

hartsickdiscipl

He already did.

When was that?

Again - "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." As you, nor any other person is without sin then no one should cast that stone.

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="redstorm72"]

Directly commanded by God? So it's only ok to do wrong as long as God tells you to? :?

redstorm72

Since God decides what's right and wrong in my world, he has the power to make exceptions, yes. It's not a hard concept.

What? You have no ability to decide what's right and wrong for yourself? Your not even really a person then are you? Just a puppet for God. What's worse is that God isn't even telling you what's right and wrong, just a bunch of people interpreting his words 2000 thousand years ago.

I'd rather be a puppet of the laws of a far more advanced and intelligent being than a puppet of the laws we have in this world today. Is it possible that some of the things passed down from the Divine Being (God, Alien.. whatever he/she/it may turn out to be) were misinterpreted and/or augmented by Bible writers and ancient lawmakers? Yes. However, since I see that a higher power was helping the Isrealites with his divine power back in those days (escape from Egypt, Ark of the Covenant, etc..), I have to think that they had his backing, and that their execution of his laws had his backing as well.

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

He already did.

worlock77

When was that?

Again - "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." As you, nor any other person is without sin then no one should cast that stone.

I'm sure that was referring to situations not specifically covered in Mosaic law. It's not that hard to figure that out. You're just looking for angles to try to justify your way of thinking.

[QUOTE="redstorm72"]

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

Since God decides what's right and wrong in my world, he has the power to make exceptions, yes. It's not a hard concept.

hartsickdiscipl

What? You have no ability to decide what's right and wrong for yourself? Your not even really a person then are you? Just a puppet for God. What's worse is that God isn't even telling you what's right and wrong, just a bunch of people interpreting his words 2000 thousand years ago.

I'd rather be a puppet of the laws of a far more advanced and intelligent being than a puppet of the laws we have in this world today. Is it possible that some of the things passed down from the Divine Being (God, Alien.. whatever he/she/it may turn out to be) were misinterpreted and/or augmented by Bible writers and ancient lawmakers? Yes. However, since I see that a higher power was helping the Isrealites with his divine power back in those days (escape from Egypt, Ark of the Covenant, etc..), I have to think that they had his backing, and that their execution of his laws had his backing as well.

Your aware that charging interest and really the entire capitalistmodel was seen as immoral? And only changed later on by man? And not god?

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

When was that?

hartsickdiscipl

Again - "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." As you, nor any other person is without sin then no one should cast that stone.

I'm sure that was referring to situations not specifically covered in Mosaic law. It's not that hard to figure that out. You're just looking for angles to try to justify your way of thinking.

So you allow for the possiblity of error in the Bible, but basically just shrug it off? You really don't think for yourself do you?

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

Nope, sorry, it's completely contradictory. Especially from someone who claims to be a Christian. Christ taught love, forgivness, and compassion. You seem to be filled with bloodlust and hatred.

worlock77

Did I say that I'm going to stone an adulterer? No.. but if Christ was ever in a position where God's law required him to do so, I'm sure he would have. Yes, he preached compassion and leading by example.. but bad things happen. Christ wasn't one of the high priests in his ancient Isreal, so he wouldn't have been called upon to enact these types of laws anyways. Relevant details my friend.

Christ was God in human form, so if anyone were to enact these laws it would have been him.

I have never been taught nor believed that Christ was God. He was God's son.. an Agent of God. Certainly not God himself.

non-believes have morals because they copy morals from other religions that think is "ok" without giving credit to them.alexside1

Exactly. This is the best, most simplified version of what I've been saying. Thank you.

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

Again - "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." As you, nor any other person is without sin then no one should cast that stone.

xaos

I'm sure that was referring to situations not specifically covered in Mosaic law. It's not that hard to figure that out. You're just looking for angles to try to justify your way of thinking.

Like I said, it's not that hard to figure out that there would be situations not covered in Mosaic Law. Not everything was punishable by death.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

When was that?

hartsickdiscipl

Again - "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." As you, nor any other person is without sin then no one should cast that stone.

I'm sure that was referring to situations not specifically covered in Mosaic law. It's not that hard to figure that out. You're just looking for angles to try to justify your way of thinking.

For f***'s sake, the woman was an adulteress. That was punishable by death by stoning under Mosaic law.

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

Again - "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." As you, nor any other person is without sin then no one should cast that stone.

worlock77

I'm sure that was referring to situations not specifically covered in Mosaic law. It's not that hard to figure that out. You're just looking for angles to try to justify your way of thinking.

For f***'s sake, the woman was an adulteress. That was punishable by death by stoning under Mosaic law.

I would ask you to give me the specific scripture that you're referring to, but I'm sure we wouldn't agree on it's interpretation anyways.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

Did I say that I'm going to stone an adulterer? No.. but if Christ was ever in a position where God's law required him to do so, I'm sure he would have. Yes, he preached compassion and leading by example.. but bad things happen. Christ wasn't one of the high priests in his ancient Isreal, so he wouldn't have been called upon to enact these types of laws anyways. Relevant details my friend.

hartsickdiscipl

Christ was God in human form, so if anyone were to enact these laws it would have been him.

I have never been taught nor believed that Christ was God. He was God's son.. an Agent of God. Certainly not God himself.

The Holy Trinity, look it up. Pretty much all of Christianty teaches it.

I'm sure that was referring to situations not specifically covered in Mosaic law. It's not that hard to figure that out. You're just looking for angles to try to justify your way of thinking.

hartsickdiscipl

So you allow for the possiblity of error in the Bible, but basically just shrug it off? You really don't think for yourself do you?

worlock77

Possibility is far from proof. If you read the last part of my post you would know that there are other things in the Bible that indicate to me that the Isrealites were on the right track.

[QUOTE="alexside1"]non-believes have morals because they copy morals from other religions that think is "ok" without giving credit to them.hartsickdiscipl

Exactly. This is the best, most simplified version of what I've been saying. Thank you.

This is ridiculous.. Ok firstly Christainity borrowed heavily from Socrates, Aristotle, and Plato.. In a culture that was of Greek Mythology.. In which a convent of laws was never enforced by the gods.. In fact the going saying during those periods was not to piss off the gods.. Society creates morals and ideas.. If this weren't the case.. Society's morals and values of today would be the exact same as they were 1000 years ago.. And they are not.. WHat changed during that time? Because it certainly wasn'tthe basic idea of religion such as Christianity. Hell the Christian Reformation and Counter Reformation of the 1500's should be PROOF of this.. Where the Protestant faith adopted ideas and values different from the Catholic church WITH out the command of god..

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

Christ was God in human form, so if anyone were to enact these laws it would have been him.

worlock77

I have never been taught nor believed that Christ was God. He was God's son.. an Agent of God. Certainly not God himself.

The Holy Trinity, look it up. Pretty much all of Christianty teaches it.

Not true. Jehovah's Witnesses do not teach the trinity. They teach against it. The trinity was a creation of the early Catholic Church, based on a misinterpretation of John 1:1 which really says- "The word was with God," as opposed to "The word WAS God." Not to mention the references to the Archangel Michael, who is Jesus in heavenly form. Michael can't be God AND Jesus.

[QUOTE="xaos"][QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

I'm sure that was referring to situations not specifically covered in Mosaic law. It's not that hard to figure that out. You're just looking for angles to try to justify your way of thinking.

hartsickdiscipl

Like I said, it's not that hard to figure out that there would be situations not covered in Mosaic Law. Not everything was punishable by death.

How is that possible? How can Mosaic Law not cover everything? Its God's laws.. God is perfect.. Either Mosaic Law is not the words of god.. Or god is not perfect.. You take your pick.

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

I'm sure that was referring to situations not specifically covered in Mosaic law. It's not that hard to figure that out. You're just looking for angles to try to justify your way of thinking.

hartsickdiscipl

For f***'s sake, the woman was an adulteress. That was punishable by death by stoning under Mosaic law.

I would ask you to give me the specific scripture that you're referring to, but I'm sure we wouldn't agree on it's interpretation anyways.

Have you even read your own holy book? Leviticus 20:10, Deuteronomy 22:22 both prescribe death for adulterers. Granted they may not specifically state by stoning, but they prescribe death nonetheless.