Muslims from Uk and USA admit kufrs are second class citizens

[QUOTE="MattUD1"][QUOTE="gobo212"]

There is nothing natural about war.

kulmiye

Natural war. The war against mother nature continues on. YEAH MAN OR WO-MAN in her case. Wow so much nonsense in this thread.

[QUOTE="Dracargen"][QUOTE="jointed"]

Yeah sure you have...

World war 1, the napoleonic wars and the crusades had more casualties than the communistic genocides. this isn't debatable...this is fact. And I've already provided links...

jointed

You don't get it, do you? WWI and the Napoleanic wars had nothing, nada, zip, zilch, to do with religion, of any form, of any creed, denomination, sect, philosophy, or otherwise.

My point: Atheists have killed far more than religious people in history.

Your point: Christians have killed more than atheists.

So then you site two wars that had absolutely nothing to do with any religion, but then pin them on Christianity? How very intelligent of you.

:lol:

I'm just playing by your rules.

You cite incidents that had nothing to do with atheism. Non of those leaders decided to commit such atrocities in the name of atheism. They did it to protect the communistic state and ideology. But....they were atheists so let's blame atheism.

Napoleon and Urban II together with the leaders of the WW 1 major powers were all Christians...so this means that the Napoleonic wars, the crusades and the first world war was all Christianity's fault.........right?

When this startred, I was using YOUR logic. Which was:

Christians killed more people than atheists, therefore, it was Christianity's fault.

Both the premise and the conclusion are false. Their communistic religion was explicitly atheistic. I'm not blaming atheism, unless you're blaming Christianity, which, when this started, you were.

[QUOTE="Dracargen"][QUOTE="GettingTired"]
Does it matter? You can't kill in the name of nothing. You can kill in the name of something, just like that quote I posted earlier, which everyone so kindly ignored.

GettingTired

Too bad atheism is not "nothing."

From my article, a quote:

Second, several atheist writers argued that Stalin and Mao's crimes could not be blamed on atheism since atheism is not really a belief, it is really an absence of belief.

As one writer put it, "Leaders such as Stalin and Mao persecuted religious groups, not in a bid to expand atheism, but as a way of focusing people's hatred on those groups to consolidate their own power." Of course I agree that murderous regimes, whether Christian or atheist, are generally seeking to strengthen their position. But if Christian regimes are held responsible for their crimes committed in the name of Christianity, then atheist regimes should be held accountable for their crimes committed in the name of atheism. And who can deny that Stalin and Mao, not to mention Pol Pot and a host of others, all committed atrocities in the name of a Communist ideology that was explicitly atheistic? Who can dispute that they did their bloody deeds by claiming to be establishing a "new man" and a religion-free utopia? These were mass murders performed with atheism as a central part of their ideological inspiration, they were not mass murders done by people who simply happened to be atheist.

But there is a difference between being against something, and fighting for something. They were not fighting for atheism. They could have very well been deists and still persecuted organized religion. There's no underlining ethic or motivation directly caused by any atheistic institution.
Your argument is just as flawed as blaming rock and roll music for school shootings.

See, when religious based persecution happens, they have a physical inspiration and basis for their doings, such as the Quran or Bible.

That would make perfect sense if you could site where, specifically, the Koran or Bible state that such things should be done, then explain the parts that explicitly state that they should NOT be done.:|

[QUOTE="jointed"][QUOTE="Dracargen"][QUOTE="jointed"]

Yeah sure you have...

World war 1, the napoleonic wars and the crusades had more casualties than the communistic genocides. this isn't debatable...this is fact. And I've already provided links...

Dracargen

You don't get it, do you? WWI and the Napoleanic wars had nothing, nada, zip, zilch, to do with religion, of any form, of any creed, denomination, sect, philosophy, or otherwise.

My point: Atheists have killed far more than religious people in history.

Your point: Christians have killed more than atheists.

So then you site two wars that had absolutely nothing to do with any religion, but then pin them on Christianity? How very intelligent of you.

:lol:

I'm just playing by your rules.

You cite incidents that had nothing to do with atheism. Non of those leaders decided to commit such atrocities in the name of atheism. They did it to protect the communistic state and ideology. But....they were atheists so let's blame atheism.

Napoleon and Urban II together with the leaders of the WW 1 major powers were all Christians...so this means that the Napoleonic wars, the crusades and the first world war was all Christianity's fault.........right?

When this startred, I was using YOUR logic. Which was:

Christians killed more people than atheists, therefore, it was Christianity's fault.

Both the premise and the conclusion are false. Their communistic religion was explicitly atheistic. I'm not blaming atheism, unless you're blaming Christianity, which, when this started, you were.

No, I never said that. I argued against such logic...

Go back to the initial thread and re-read it. You were accusing Scientology of brainwashing and demanding money from it's followers. I merely stated that Christianity has done and still does the exact same thing.

No, I never said that. I argued against such logic...

Go back to the initial thread and re-read it. You were accusing Scientology of brainwashing and demanding money from it's followers. I merely stated that Christianity has done and still does the exact same thing.

jointed

You're telling me to re-read the topic? I did not say scientology did those things (even though they do), somebody else did, then compared scientology to Christianity. I said that Christianity does niether, which you came in and said "Yes they do, look at the Catholic church!"

And no, Christianity does not do that; How can a philosophy brainwash and demand money from people?

[QUOTE="jointed"]

No, I never said that. I argued against such logic...

Go back to the initial thread and re-read it. You were accusing Scientology of brainwashing and demanding money from it's followers. I merely stated that Christianity has done and still does the exact same thing.

Dracargen

You're telling me to re-read the topic? I did not say scientology did those things (even though they do), somebody else did, then compared scientology to Christianity. I said that Christianity does niether, which you came in and said "Yes they do, look at the Catholic church!"

And no, Christianity does not do that; How can a philosophy brainwash and demand money from people?

Error....your second sentence and your last are not coherent.

And yes you did, you stated it as obviousness.

A philosophy can easily, with the help of its followers, "brainwash and demand money" from people.

But it's all about how you interpret it (Christianity or any other religion) and that's what makes them so dangerous.

[QUOTE="Dracargen"][QUOTE="jointed"]

No, I never said that. I argued against such logic...

Go back to the initial thread and re-read it. You were accusing Scientology of brainwashing and demanding money from it's followers. I merely stated that Christianity has done and still does the exact same thing.

jointed

You're telling me to re-read the topic? I did not say scientology did those things (even though they do), somebody else did, then compared scientology to Christianity. I said that Christianity does niether, which you came in and said "Yes they do, look at the Catholic church!"

And no, Christianity does not do that; How can a philosophy brainwash and demand money from people?

Error....your second sentence and your last are not coherent.

And yes you did, you stated it as obviousness.

A philosophy can easily, with the help of its followers, "brainwash and demand money" from people.

But it's all about how you interpret it (Christianity or any other religion) and that's what makes them so dangerous.

A philosophy is intangible, without physical form. I'd love to know how one can brainwash and demand money from people. If the source of the philosophy (in this case, the Bible) can demand money from and brainwash people, then it makes more sense.

No, I did not. Quote me.

A philosophy has to demand it. Point out the Bible verse that endourceds brainwashing.:roll:

You can interpret ANYTHING into ANYTHING; Therefore, EVERYTHING is dangerous? No. Just because you can interpret it into something does not make your interpretation correct.

[QUOTE="kulmiye"][QUOTE="MattUD1"][QUOTE="gobo212"]

There is nothing natural about war.

MattUD1

Natural war. The war against mother nature continues on. YEAH MAN OR WO-MAN in her case. Wow so much nonsense in this thread.

I be speaking nonsense.

[QUOTE="jointed"][QUOTE="Dracargen"][QUOTE="jointed"]

No, I never said that. I argued against such logic...

Go back to the initial thread and re-read it. You were accusing Scientology of brainwashing and demanding money from it's followers. I merely stated that Christianity has done and still does the exact same thing.

Dracargen

You're telling me to re-read the topic? I did not say scientology did those things (even though they do), somebody else did, then compared scientology to Christianity. I said that Christianity does niether, which you came in and said "Yes they do, look at the Catholic church!"

And no, Christianity does not do that; How can a philosophy brainwash and demand money from people?

Error....your second sentence and your last are not coherent.

And yes you did, you stated it as obviousness.

A philosophy can easily, with the help of its followers, "brainwash and demand money" from people.

But it's all about how you interpret it (Christianity or any other religion) and that's what makes them so dangerous.

A philosophy is intangible, without physical form. I'd love to know how one can brainwash and demand money from people. If the source of the philosophy (in this case, the Bible) can demand money from and brainwash people, then it makes more sense.

No, I did not. Quote me.

A philosophy has to demand it. Point out the Bible verse that endourceds brainwashing.:roll:

You can interpret ANYTHING into ANYTHING; Therefore, EVERYTHING is dangerous? No. Just because you can interpret it into something does not make your interpretation correct.

No a philosophy does not have to demand it. :roll: Nazism didn't demand the killing of the jews or the 2nd world war....but they were natural consequences of such a ridicolous ideaology.

No you can't, that's a horrible excuse, it's not as if the Muslim terrorists or the christian fanatics pull verses out of their arses and follow them. They find certain quotes in the Bible/Quran and interpret them the way they see fit.

[QUOTE="MattUD1"][QUOTE="kulmiye"][QUOTE="MattUD1"][QUOTE="gobo212"]

There is nothing natural about war.

kulmiye

Natural war. The war against mother nature continues on. YEAH MAN OR WO-MAN in her case. Wow so much nonsense in this thread.

I be speaking nonsense.

No a philosophy does not have to demand it. :roll: Nazism didn't demand the killing of the jews or the 2nd world war....but they were natural consequences of such a ridicolous ideaology.

No you can't, that's a horrible excuse, it's not as if the Muslim terrorists or the christian fanatics pull verses out of their arses and follow them. They find certain quotes in the Bible/Quran and interpret them the way they see fit.

jointed

Can't quote me, can you?:roll:

Nazism DID demand the killing of Jews.:| The second World War came after said killing of Jews.

And that doesn't mean their interpretations are correct. I can get a verse from the Bible and make it say the Earth is made of leaves; Does that make it a correct interpretation? Does that mean Christianity is responsible for that interpretation? Even if the Bible explicitly says somewhere else: "The Earth is NOT made of leaves."?

[QUOTE="jointed"]

No a philosophy does not have to demand it. :roll: Nazism didn't demand the killing of the jews or the 2nd world war....but they were natural consequences of such a ridicolous ideaology.

No you can't, that's a horrible excuse, it's not as if the Muslim terrorists or the christian fanatics pull verses out of their arses and follow them. They find certain quotes in the Bible/Quran and interpret them the way they see fit.

Dracargen

Can't quote me, can you?:roll:

Nazism DID demand the killing of Jews.:| The second World War came after said killing of Jews.

And that doesn't mean their interpretations are correct. I can get a verse from the Bible and make it say the Earth is made of leaves; Does that make it a correct interpretation? Does that mean Christianity is responsible for that interpretation? Even if the Bible explicitly says somewhere else: "The Earth is NOT made of leaves."?

You said "Because christianity didn't brainwash or demand money from people?" or something along those lines...

No it did not...the Nazi program didn't mention the systematic killing of jews anywhere. It was something thought up by Himmler and Göring.

If the Bible indeed was that flexibel, then it should be considered garbage.

Muslims are not even the majority here and they are openly addmiting this.Here is the situation a muslim made a topic for release of a terrorist in usa so i presented the evidence that the terrorist was infact guilty so the muslims removed my links and said. Fady "Lazy Australians dont hold any programs against unjustice to the Muslims" "inshAllah...soon the victory from Allah will come" AbuMubarak "anyway, you can post link after link, the word of one Muslim supersedes the word of the kuffar" http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=151275 Guys we need to wake up now ASHISH1777

i think we tolerate muslims well. muslims jibing about our racism to them is bs, becuasse if we christians go to their countries, it's a danger to even reveal your christian. we respect their culture more than they respect ours and they come saying we're inferior. well i feel sorry for their culture, a sexist man dominates type. now this is not to say i hate muslims, i have no problems with them at all, but sometimes they push it too far.

To say that allMuslims want x y and z is just rediculous. Saying they all want Sharia Law or to ban Christmas decorations or anything else glorified by the media is like saying all Christians think soldiers deserve to die in Iraq because they're gay (a statement used regularly by the Westborough Baptist Church). This is entirely glorified from extremists from both sides and it's reactions like this they're looking for.

The only problem I can actually see is that these views from the extremists are being heard and accepted by those in power, lest they upset someone. Until they start thinking about the rights of those who aren't completely [insert religious book here] demented this sort of stuff will continue and more and more tension will rise out of it.

[QUOTE="ASHISH1777"]Muslims are not even the majority here and they are openly addmiting this.Here is the situation a muslim made a topic for release of a terrorist in usa so i presented the evidence that the terrorist was infact guilty so the muslims removed my links and said. Fady "Lazy Australians dont hold any programs against unjustice to the Muslims" "inshAllah...soon the victory from Allah will come" AbuMubarak "anyway, you can post link after link, the word of one Muslim supersedes the word of the kuffar" http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=151275 Guys we need to wake up now comissario

i think we tolerate muslims well. muslims jibing about our racism to them is bs, becuasse if we christians go to their countries, it's a danger to even reveal your christian. we respect their culture more than they respect ours and they come saying we're inferior. well i feel sorry for their culture, a sexist man dominates type. now this is not to say i hate muslims, i have no problems with them at all, but sometimes they push it too far.

In which country is it unsafe to declare that one is a christian? I mean, I live here in Pakistan ( A muslim country) and we have many convent schools. For example here in Karachi, there is Saint Michaels, Saint Pauls, Saint Patricks etc. . Infact if you search on mchristian missionary websites you may find them cliaming that they have coinverted so many muslims,in countries like Indonesia, to christains. I don't see all of this possible if it was even "unsafe" to declare that you are a christian. I have few christian friends and even know few Hindus.

So much ridiculous speculation in one thread...I can't keep up.

Guess what? I'm Muslim and I believe in equality of citizens and a secular legal system.

Which actually sets me apart from Christian, Muslim, Hindu and Jewish fundamentalists alike. There's a difference between faith as belief and faith as ideology. The latter notion is not confined to Islam. Look at the movement of ultra-orthodox Jews in Israel, Hindu fundamentalists in India, and half of Bush's lackeys for examples.