No Murder Charge For Man Who Killed Daughter's Molester

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WhiteKnight77

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#301 WhiteKnight77
Member since 2003 • 12605 Posts

Also I am okay with what happened with the stuff the topic is aboutdave123321

I would also be totally fine with an indictment. No one should be above the law. Talking in general, nit necessarily about this dave123321

Talk about the ultimate flip flop.

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dave123321

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#302 dave123321
Member since 2003 • 35554 Posts

[QUOTE="dave123321"]Also I am okay with what happened with the stuff the topic is aboutWhiteKnight77

I would also be totally fine with an indictment. No one should be above the law. Talking in general, nit necessarily about this dave123321

Talk about the ultimate flip flop.

No
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l4dak47

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#303 l4dak47
Member since 2009 • 6838 Posts

I don't know, this is a weird case. I think the guy still should have been charged for Manslaughter and then acquitted just so this doesn't set some sort of legal precedent where people can take the law into their own hands and go off scott free.

Aljosa23
Cases like these are tricky. It ultimately comes down to whether he actually intended to kill and whether he used too much force beyond what was necessary to subdue the molester.
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deactivated-5e836a855beb2

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#304 deactivated-5e836a855beb2
Member since 2005 • 95573 Posts

I don't know, this is a weird case. I think the guy still should have been charged for Manslaughter and then acquitted just so this doesn't set some sort of legal precedent where people can take the law into their own hands and go off scott free.

Aljosa23
that's dumb don't charge someone with the intent of acquitting them that's dumb
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deactivated-5e836a855beb2

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#305 deactivated-5e836a855beb2
Member since 2005 • 95573 Posts
It ultimately comes down to whether he actually intended to kill and whether he used too much force beyond what was necessary to subdue the molester. l4dak47
totally agree really + 2 punches
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MrPraline

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#307 MrPraline
Member since 2008 • 21351 Posts

I don't know, this is a weird case. I think the guy still should have been charged for Manslaughter and then acquitted just so this doesn't set some sort of legal precedent where people can take the law into their own hands and go off scott free.

Aljosa23
mm I'm leaning towards something like this, yeah.
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deactivated-5b1e62582e305

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#308 deactivated-5b1e62582e305
Member since 2004 • 30778 Posts

[QUOTE="Aljosa23"]

I don't know, this is a weird case. I think the guy still should have been charged for Manslaughter and then acquitted just so this doesn't set some sort of legal precedent where people can take the law into their own hands and go off scott free.

Jandurin

that's dumb don't charge someone with the intent of acquitting them that's dumb

No, it isn't. They have that here in Canada and no one should be above the law and due process needs to be respected to show that the system works.

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deactivated-5e836a855beb2

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#309 deactivated-5e836a855beb2
Member since 2005 • 95573 Posts

[QUOTE="Jandurin"][QUOTE="Aljosa23"]

I don't know, this is a weird case. I think the guy still should have been charged for Manslaughter and then acquitted just so this doesn't set some sort of legal precedent where people can take the law into their own hands and go off scott free.

Aljosa23

that's dumb don't charge someone with the intent of acquitting them that's dumb

No, it isn't. They have that here in Canada and no one should be above the law and due process needs to be respected to show that the system works.

canada is wrong
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dave123321

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#310 dave123321
Member since 2003 • 35554 Posts

[QUOTE="dave123321"]Also I am okay with what happened with the stuff the topic is aboutWhiteKnight77

I would also be totally fine with an indictment. No one should be above the law. Talking in general, nit necessarily about this dave123321

Talk about the ultimate flip flop.

I am fine with it meaning I am not going to be upset or make a big deal out of it. I also see why he should be indicted and would be totally fine with that occurring. So like on the fence. Although now leaning towards indictment.
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deactivated-5e836a855beb2

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#311 deactivated-5e836a855beb2
Member since 2005 • 95573 Posts
HEY GUYS LET'S PRETEND THAT WE ARE CHARGING THIS GUY BUT WE ALL KNOW HE'S GETTING OFF ANYWAY SO YEAH IT'S LIKE THE SYSTEM WORKS nice
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deactivated-5b1e62582e305

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#312 deactivated-5b1e62582e305
Member since 2004 • 30778 Posts

[QUOTE="Aljosa23"]

[QUOTE="Jandurin"] that's dumb don't charge someone with the intent of acquitting them that's dumbJandurin

No, it isn't. They have that here in Canada and no one should be above the law and due process needs to be respected to show that the system works.

canada is wrong

Shut up old man.

Canada >

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TheFallenDemon

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#313 TheFallenDemon
Member since 2010 • 13933 Posts

[QUOTE="Jandurin"][QUOTE="Aljosa23"]No, it isn't. They have that here in Canada and no one should be above the law and due process needs to be respected to show that the system works.

Aljosa23

canada is wrong

Shut up old man.

Canada >


mhm

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dave123321

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#314 dave123321
Member since 2003 • 35554 Posts
Malcolm how have I betrayed you guys for OT? I am pacing up and down with worry.
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Zeviander

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#315 Zeviander
Member since 2011 • 9503 Posts
why do they have juries if emotion isn't to be consideredJandurin
Juries are meant to be unbiased, random arbitrators, with no connection to the victim(s) or criminal. They are to represent the fairest selection of peers to evaluate the evidence... NOT jerk their knees at the first gut feeling.
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deactivated-5e836a855beb2

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#316 deactivated-5e836a855beb2
Member since 2005 • 95573 Posts
[QUOTE="Jandurin"]why do they have juries if emotion isn't to be consideredZeviander
Juries are meant to be unbiased, random arbitrators, with no connection to the victim(s) or criminal. They are to represent the fairest selection of peers to evaluate the evidence... NOT jerk their knees at the first gut feeling.

HAHAHAHAAHA yeah okay man
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GrayF0X786

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#317 GrayF0X786
Member since 2012 • 4185 Posts

[QUOTE="MrPraline"][QUOTE="StealthMonkey4"]

He would have simply ripped him off if he didn't intend on killing him, he punched him repeatedly which was unnecessary, you'd have to be blind to think he wasn't trying to murder him

StealthMonkey4

that's not murder, brometheus these things have legal definitions, you know

just because they raped his daughter.

you are one fking idiot.

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MrPraline

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#318 MrPraline
Member since 2008 • 21351 Posts
[QUOTE="dave123321"]Malcolm how have I betrayed you guys for OT? I am pacing up and down with worry.

Don't worry I've posted less there than you lately I will take the fall
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WhiteKnight77

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#319 WhiteKnight77
Member since 2003 • 12605 Posts

[QUOTE="WhiteKnight77"]

[QUOTE="dave123321"]I would also be totally fine with an indictment. No one should be above the law. Talking in general, nit necessarily about this dave123321

Talk about the ultimate flip flop.

No

Then what would you call it?

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MrPraline

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#320 MrPraline
Member since 2008 • 21351 Posts

[QUOTE="StealthMonkey4"]

[QUOTE="MrPraline"] that's not murder, brometheus these things have legal definitions, you knowGrayF0X786

just because they raped his daughter.

you are one fking idiot.

grayf0x defending me! i am so filled with love right now thanks friend
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StealthMonkey4

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#321 StealthMonkey4
Member since 2009 • 7434 Posts

[QUOTE="StealthMonkey4"]

[QUOTE="MrPraline"] that's not murder, brometheus these things have legal definitions, you knowGrayF0X786

just because they raped his daughter.

you are one fking idiot.

If someone was ti rape someone I'm close to, I wouldn't try to be a vigilante and go incredible hulk on them and bash their brains in and kill them, I would let the law deal with them, that's the whole reason we have a legal system.:roll:

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pie-junior

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#323 pie-junior
Member since 2007 • 2866 Posts
[QUOTE="Jandurin"]HEY GUYS LET'S PRETEND THAT WE ARE CHARGING THIS GUY BUT WE ALL KNOW HE'S GETTING OFF ANYWAY SO YEAH IT'S LIKE THE SYSTEM WORKS nice

He could plead out and get a nominal sentence. that seems like a proper result.
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#324 l4dak47
Member since 2009 • 6838 Posts
[QUOTE="Jandurin"]why do they have juries if emotion isn't to be consideredZeviander
Juries are meant to be unbiased, random arbitrators, with no connection to the victim(s) or criminal. They are to represent the fairest selection of peers to evaluate the evidence... NOT jerk their knees at the first gut feeling.

In an ideal world, yes.
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pie-junior

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#325 pie-junior
Member since 2007 • 2866 Posts
[QUOTE="GrayF0X786"]

[QUOTE="StealthMonkey4"]

just because they raped his daughter.

MrPraline

you are one fking idiot.

grayf0x defending me! i am so filled with love right now thanks friend

you are his timberlake
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dave123321

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#326 dave123321
Member since 2003 • 35554 Posts

[QUOTE="dave123321"]

[QUOTE="WhiteKnight77"]

Talk about the ultimate flip flop.

WhiteKnight77

No

Then what would you call it?

YOU WIN
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Zeviander

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#327 Zeviander
Member since 2011 • 9503 Posts
[QUOTE="Jandurin"]HAHAHAHAAHA yeah okay man

I never said reality matches the ideal. I am merely an optimist that hopes if I am charged with a crime I didn't commit, I get a fair trial with a jury that respects the process. Or hell, if I am charged with a crime I did commit, I'd hope for a fair trial under due process. Nothing is worse than the law being skirted in favour of emotional outbursts.
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mingmao3046

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#328 mingmao3046
Member since 2011 • 2683 Posts

[QUOTE="GrayF0X786"]

[QUOTE="StealthMonkey4"]

just because they raped his daughter.

StealthMonkey4

you are one fking idiot.

If someone was ti rape someone I'm close to, I wouldn't try to be a vigilante and go incredible hulk on them and bash their brains in and kill them, I would let the law deal with them, that's the whole reason we have a legal system.:roll:

so basically you are a politically correct panzy
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StealthMonkey4

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#329 StealthMonkey4
Member since 2009 • 7434 Posts

[QUOTE="StealthMonkey4"]

[QUOTE="GrayF0X786"] you are one fking idiot.

mingmao3046

If someone was ti rape someone I'm close to, I wouldn't try to be a vigilante and go incredible hulk on them and bash their brains in and kill them, I would let the law deal with them, that's the whole reason we have a legal system.:roll:

so basically you are a politically correct panzy

No, I'm just not an idiotic barbarian trying to take justice into my own hands. I also would not want to get charged with manslaughter, I mean not that it would matter since people can do exactly that and get off with no charges.

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WhiteKnight77

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#330 WhiteKnight77
Member since 2003 • 12605 Posts

[QUOTE="Jandurin"]HAHAHAHAAHA yeah okay manZeviander
I never said reality matches the ideal. I am merely an optimist that hopes if I am charged with a crime I didn't commit, I get a fair trial with a jury that respects the process. Or hell, if I am charged with a crime I did commit, I'd hope for a fair trial under due process. Nothing is worse than the law being skirted in favour of emotional outbursts.

The law wasn't skirted. The grand jury looked at all the evidence and statements made by eyewitnesses and made a decision. Due process did happen and in this case, the grand jury felt that the evidence was of self defense and did not indict the father.

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Ravensmash

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#331 Ravensmash
Member since 2010 • 13862 Posts

[QUOTE="Ravensmash"]Can you be certain that you'd remain rational if you walked in on your daughter being raped?Zeviander
There is a difference between irrationality and unjustified brutality. In a just, civil society, we are all accountable for our actions, whether we are being rational about them or not. This man could easily have stopped the crime and subdued the man without killing him (police do this all the time). There was no threat of lethal force, thus the use of lethal force to stop it is not legally justified. And you cannot tell me the embarassment of a public trial by a jury of his peers with full media coverage, and a long prison sentence in a facility that contains people who rape and torture child molestors would not be a worse punishment than a quick death at the hands of an enraged father. There is no way the father's actions can be justified in a society that claims to uphold freedom, human rights and most importantly JUSTICE. Justice is a fair trial and reasonable prison sentence (and preferably reparations, but it doesn't work like that here). Not a brutal death at the hands of an incredibly emotional, biased first party. The father should have been charged with manslaughter, and at the very least a form of assault causing grievous bodily harm/death. Whether a criminal or not, the molestor is entitled to rights afford all citizens of a just society. The father did not allow the system to do it's job and took the law into his own hands. We aren't living in a comic book world where Gotham City has an ineffectual legal system and needs a masked vigilante swinging around stopping crimes.

Are you some sort of robot? Now, I'm not going to hypothesise what I'd do in such a f*cking horrible situation, and I'm not a parent either.

But I can guarantee that given the horrific situation, the majority of people would ACT FIRST, THINK LATER.

Something which the police (and seemingly the law) agree with.

I'm not cheering over the guys death, but I think that prosecuting the father would achieve absolutely nothing. This man is not a violent offender or someone who needs to be rehabilitated, he walked in on his daughter being raped and acted as a father. Your problem is that you're applying rational thought (blah blah threat of danger, proportionate force) to an extreme situation that any parent would have nightmares about.

And why do you say he "should have been charged with manslaughter" as though you hold authority over the courts themselves? He wasn't in breach of the law, his actions don't warrant prosecution, and he and his family should be left to recover.

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SamusFreak

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#332 SamusFreak
Member since 2004 • 1932 Posts

[QUOTE="Zeviander"][QUOTE="Jandurin"]HAHAHAHAAHA yeah okay manWhiteKnight77

I never said reality matches the ideal. I am merely an optimist that hopes if I am charged with a crime I didn't commit, I get a fair trial with a jury that respects the process. Or hell, if I am charged with a crime I did commit, I'd hope for a fair trial under due process. Nothing is worse than the law being skirted in favour of emotional outbursts.

The law wasn't skirted. The grand jury looked at all the evidence and statements made by eyewitnesses and made a decision. Due process did happen and in this case, the grand jury felt that the evidence was of self defense and did not indict the father.

Another thing he and a lot of people here aren't aware of ( in his defense, he is Canadian) Is that Texas, and many states have Castle Laws, or things similar. Which is why it's silly that the media tried to play it up. He was on his property, defending his daughter. Even if not "lost in the moment" There was a 99% chance of the actual outcome, happening.

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pie-junior

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#333 pie-junior
Member since 2007 • 2866 Posts

Another thing he and a lot of people here aren't aware of ( in his defense, he is Canadian) Is that Texas, and many states have Castle Laws, or things similar. Which is why it's silly that the media tried to play it up. He was on his property, defending his daughter. Even if not "lost in the moment" There was a 99% chance of the actual outcome, happening.

SamusFreak

"Castle laws" aren't relevant here in the slightest.

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SamusFreak

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#334 SamusFreak
Member since 2004 • 1932 Posts

[QUOTE="SamusFreak"]

Another thing he and a lot of people here aren't aware of ( in his defense, he is Canadian) Is that Texas, and many states have Castle Laws, or things similar. Which is why it's silly that the media tried to play it up. He was on his property, defending his daughter. Even if not "lost in the moment" There was a 99% chance of the actual outcome, happening.

pie-junior

"Castle laws" aren't relevant here in the slightest.

I'd like proof of that..

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pie-junior

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#335 pie-junior
Member since 2007 • 2866 Posts

[QUOTE="pie-junior"]

[QUOTE="SamusFreak"]

Another thing he and a lot of people here aren't aware of ( in his defense, he is Canadian) Is that Texas, and many states have Castle Laws, or things similar. Which is why it's silly that the media tried to play it up. He was on his property, defending his daughter. Even if not "lost in the moment" There was a 99% chance of the actual outcome, happening.

SamusFreak

"Castle laws" aren't relevant here in the slightest.

I'd like proof of that..

It's a specific defence relevant to unconsented outside intrusion, not this case. Standing in property under your posession doesn't give you carte blanche to use unbridled 'self-defence' and murder someone for pocketing your ashtray. On the other hand, there are still the general criminal defences revolving around reasonable necessity.
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WhiteKnight77

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#336 WhiteKnight77
Member since 2003 • 12605 Posts

[QUOTE="SamusFreak"]

[QUOTE="pie-junior"]

"Castle laws" aren't relevant here in the slightest.

pie-junior

I'd like proof of that..

It's a specific defence relevant to unconsented outside intrusion, not this case. Standing in property under your posession doesn't give you carte blanche to use unbridled 'self-defence' and murder someone for pocketing your ashtray. On the other hand, there are still the general criminal defences revolving around reasonable necessity.

Texas does have laws stating that deadly force is admissible to stop a rape or other sexual assault.

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SamusFreak

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#337 SamusFreak
Member since 2004 • 1932 Posts

[QUOTE="SamusFreak"]

[QUOTE="pie-junior"]

"Castle laws" aren't relevant here in the slightest.

pie-junior

I'd like proof of that..

It's a specific defence relevant to unconsented outside intrusion, not this case. Standing in property under your posession doesn't give you carte blanche to use unbridled 'self-defence' and murder someone for pocketing your ashtray. On the other hand, there are still the general criminal defences revolving around reasonable necessity.

In Texas at least, it does a bit more than that.

What the **** does that even mean?

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freek666

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#338 freek666
Member since 2007 • 22312 Posts

I find this sickening. Once again people want to play favourites just because someone was "right". An eye for an eye only when it's conveniant, f*cking ridiculous.

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worlock77

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#339 worlock77
Member since 2009 • 22552 Posts

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

Human behavior isn't an excuse. If I walk in on my wife with another man and kill both of them I can claim human behavior, call it a crime of passion, but that doesn't change the fact that I murdered two people.

airshocker

Next time use an example that actually makes sense. You weren't interrupting the commission of a crime. You have no legal ground from which to argue anything.

If I walk in on you raping my wife, I'm well within my rights to kill you in order to stop you. There's a difference, whether you like it or not.

Sorry dude, you're the one citing "human behavior". I'm just saying that "human behavior" doesn't excuse anything. If you want to argue legal rights then argue legal rights, but do not conflate the two.

And sure, you're within your legal rights to kill me in order to stop me. But you are not within your legal rights to kill me after you've stopped me.

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WhiteKnight77

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#340 WhiteKnight77
Member since 2003 • 12605 Posts

And sure, you're within your legal rights to kill me in order to stop me. But you are not within your legal rights to kill me after you've stopped me.

worlock77

Que?

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deactivated-5b1e62582e305

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#341 deactivated-5b1e62582e305
Member since 2004 • 30778 Posts

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

And sure, you're within your legal rights to kill me in order to stop me. But you are not within your legal rights to kill me after you've stopped me.

WhiteKnight77

Que?

That was pretty self-explanatory...

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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#342 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts
Really with these kind of things don't they give them a low level of manslaughter where they just get parole?
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worlock77

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#343 worlock77
Member since 2009 • 22552 Posts

[QUOTE="Zeviander"][QUOTE="Jandurin"]why do they have juries if emotion isn't to be consideredJandurin
Juries are meant to be unbiased, random arbitrators, with no connection to the victim(s) or criminal. They are to represent the fairest selection of peers to evaluate the evidence... NOT jerk their knees at the first gut feeling.

HAHAHAHAAHA yeah okay man

He's entirely correct. That might not be how it works out in practice, but that is the idea behind it at any rate.

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worlock77

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#344 worlock77
Member since 2009 • 22552 Posts

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

And sure, you're within your legal rights to kill me in order to stop me. But you are not within your legal rights to kill me after you've stopped me.

WhiteKnight77

Que?

You might kill me while I'm in commission of the act, but if you stop me in some other manner, say you have me on the floor, beaten, half-concious, you do not have the legal right to then, say, pull out a gun and shoot me in the head. It's not a difficult concept - your right to use lethal force ends once you or your family are no longer endangered by me.

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tocool340

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#345 tocool340
Member since 2004 • 21695 Posts
[QUOTE="Wasdie"]Get off your high horse and go away please.Zeviander
No. I enjoy standing up for true justice and against emotionally-charged vengeance done in the name of justice. "Justice is about harmony. Revenge is about you making yourself feel better".

Exactly...
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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#346 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts
[QUOTE="Zeviander"][QUOTE="Wasdie"]Get off your high horse and go away please.tocool340
No. I enjoy standing up for true justice and against emotionally-charged vengeance done in the name of justice. "Justice is about harmony. Revenge is about you making yourself feel better".

Exactly...

Vengence is a big difference from this.. This was a spur of the moment reaction.. It was not something planned or sought out for..
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jeremiah06

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#347 jeremiah06
Member since 2004 • 7217 Posts
If I were that father I'd be torn up over killing that guy... Giving him a good thrashing was a given but killing him??? Not so much heinous as his crime was...
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tocool340

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#348 tocool340
Member since 2004 • 21695 Posts

[QUOTE="tocool340"][QUOTE="Zeviander"] No. I enjoy standing up for true justice and against emotionally-charged vengeance done in the name of justice. "Justice is about harmony. Revenge is about you making yourself feel better".sSubZerOo
Exactly...

Vengence is a big difference from this.. This was a spur of the moment reaction.. It was not something planned or sought out for..

Spur of the moment my ass. He was consciously aware of his actions. He still chose to excessively beat the guy rather than simply subdue him. Manslaughter is manslaughter. I prefer consistency rather than sympathy as I'm sure there are similar cases where the person in question WOULD go to jail in a similar situation. There shouldn't really be any exceptions....

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Mozelleple112

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#349 Mozelleple112
Member since 2011 • 11293 Posts

faith in Humanity restored a little

seanmcloughlin
I agree.
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GrayF0X786

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#350 GrayF0X786
Member since 2012 • 4185 Posts

[QUOTE="GrayF0X786"]

[QUOTE="StealthMonkey4"]

just because they raped his daughter.

StealthMonkey4

you are one fking idiot.

If someone was ti rape someone I'm close to, I wouldn't try to be a vigilante and go incredible hulk on them and bash their brains in and kill them, I would let the law deal with them.

go f*** yourself.