Occupy Wall Street being ousted RIGHT NOW

OK, I'll bite. How exactly will virtually no government and virtually no taxes allow everybody to prosper?mattbbpl

I don't want virtually no taxation, just low taxation. As for government, unfortunately it's an evil we have to endure, but we can lessen it's effect on the people.

Lower taxation means people keep more of what they earn. The cost of rent and gasoline drop and property-owners don't get punished quite as much. Then we run into the obvious problem of not being able to pay for government programs. The only solution is to get rid of them, or find a way to provide a very basic, cost-effective safety net. This will then allow us to make the government smaller. Much smaller.

[QUOTE="mattbbpl"]OK, I'll bite. How exactly will virtually no government and virtually no taxes allow everybody to prosper?airshocker

I don't want virtually no taxation, just low taxation. As for government, unfortunately it's an evil we have to endure, but we can lessen it's effect on the people.

Lower taxation means people keep more of what they earn. The cost of rent and gasoline drop and property-owners don't get punished quite as much. Then we run into the obvious problem of not being able to pay for government programs. The only solution is to get rid of them, or find a way to provide a very basic, cost-effective safety net. This will then allow us to make the government smaller. Much smaller.

Even using that very narrow frame of reference, that doesn't explain how everyone would prosper. Again, assuming that frame of reference, it shows how some would prosper.

I've become more concerned with the growing mentality that getting rid of government regulations and involvement as a rule would produce a Utopia where everyone's situation would suddenly be bettered. That's a viewpoint that tends to assume things like perfect competition and social mobility and ignore things like anti-competitive practices and barriers to entry.mattbbpl

Yes, my solution works best for the individual. Something this country was founded on: individual freedoms.

Utopias don't exist and never will. The same goes for the idea that liberal and progressive policy can make this country more fair and free. It's a pipe-dream. The only thing that happens is those of us who do produce, who do work, get punished.

I've become more concerned with the growing mentality that getting rid of government regulations and involvement as a rule would produce a Utopia where everyone's situation would suddenly be bettered. That's a viewpoint that tends to assume things like perfect competition and social mobility and ignore things like anti-competitive practices and barriers to entry.mattbbpl

Where was it EVER mentioned a Utopia would be produced?

[QUOTE="mattbbpl"]Even using that very narrow frame of reference, that doesn't explain how everyone would prosper. Again, assuming that frame of reference, it shows how some would prosper.

I've become more concerned with the growing mentality that getting rid of government regulations and involvement as a rule would produce a Utopia where everyone's situation would suddenly be bettered. That's a viewpoint that tends to assume things like perfect competition and social mobility and ignore things like anti-competitive practices and barriers to entry.airshocker

Yes, my solution works best for the individual. Something this country was founded on: individual freedoms.

Utopias don't exist and never will. The same goes for the idea that liberal and progressive policy can make this country more fair and free. It's a pipe-dream. The only thing that happens is those of us who do produce, who do work, get punished.

[QUOTE="mattbbpl"]

I've become more concerned with the growing mentality that getting rid of government regulations and involvement as a rule would produce a Utopia where everyone's situation would suddenly be bettered. That's a viewpoint that tends to assume things like perfect competition and social mobility and ignore things like anti-competitive practices and barriers to entry.flazzle

Where was it EVER mentioned a Utopia would be produced?

From an economic standpoint, the laissez-faire approach typically aids large economic entities and hurts individuals and small economic entities (such as small businesses, for example).mattbbpl

And government-controlled economies also don't function very well. What I want is a mix leaning towards free-markets.

[QUOTE="QuistisTrepe_"]

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"] Look, I'm no fan of OWS, but you serious?jonathant5

These whiny little ******* are a pestilence. I have to put up with these punks here in Oakland. And what I get are disease-ridden, smelly hippies infesting my neighborhood, committing vandalism of small businesses (I guess they're the evil 1% too), theft, and violent crime (despite what you've been hearing about their allegedly peaceful demonstrations). They're not achieving anything, they're costing us millions for law enforcement sweeping the city, dispersing their encampments and bringing small businesses to a standstill with all the ruckus, interfering with mass transit, while drawing lawless lunatics from all corners of the Bay Area.

I want these people gone by any means necessary. They've had their say, the party is over. This isn't about ideology, it's about returning to civilized society.

"Everyone to prosper"mattbbpl

That's not the definition of a utopia.

[QUOTE="mattbbpl"]From an economic standpoint, the laissez-faire approach typically aids large economic entities and hurts individuals and small economic entities (such as small businesses, for example).airshocker

And government-controlled economies also don't function very well. What I want is a mix leaning towards free-markets.

[QUOTE="mattbbpl"]"Everyone to prosper"airshocker

That's not the definition of a utopia.

I dont even live in america so go destroy your country how ever you want

BossPerson

Then you do not have a dog in this fight.

As someone who is gainfully employed and working upwards of 90 hours a week, I am tired of having to shell out to support someone else feed our house themselves because they refuse to work or get enough of an education so they can support themselves.

I am with Airshocker on this (I may put in more hours a week than he, but he definately has a more dangerous job). When I see what is happening in Greece and the protests so people can remain on the public dole (800,000 public sector jobs for a population of 11 million????? outrageous honestly) for their high wages and equally high pensions, on the backs of taxpayers and to make matters worse, they are having to be bailed out, a second time. So much for trying to spread the wealth around. We need less government.

If the OWS protesters want degrees that do not get them a job, that is their fault for taking the wrong courses, but then again, society lied to them about needing to have a college education. Think about this and smoke it, if everyone worked in an office building, who would build said office building to begin with? Who would build that car that you drive or the road you drive it on? Where would you live and would build your house? Who would build the power plants, paper mills, factories and the like that keep you from living in a cave and having to hunt or fish for your meals on a daily basis? Not everyone needs a college education nor should everyone have a college education. If you went to college and took out loans, you should pay for it and not want the loan to be forgiven like some OWS vagrants (that is what they were before being evicted after all) want (that came from taxpayer money).

If someone in the States wants to change the system, and yes, I agree that it is screwed up, they need to protest in Washington DC and not in NYC near Wall Street. They also need to start voting out incumbents. Change the blood for a few election cycles across the board and demand that those elected do what the people want, not what the lobbiests want. The blame for what has happened in Washington actually belongs to the people, not business as banks or even Wall Street could not do what they did without Congress and federal bureaucracies (paid for by taxpayer money, imagine that?) allowing them to (see aboe about less government).

As I said, you do not have a dog in this fight since you do not live in the US. Now if the country you live in is having problems, then look to what or whom it was that allowed such events to happen and protest them, not some business.

One other thing, protesters do not have a right to impinge on others. In the case of OWS, they claim that they are the 99%, well, that 99% includes small business owners trying to eke out a living and have to either close or repair damage done to their businesses due to the protesters blocking or damaging/vandalizing said property. Once a protester damages private property or gets violent, their message no longer is a message and gets lost in space.

And I agree with that approach. I think we just reside on different shades of grey. I'm more 1970s Republican. You seem to be closer to Libertarian?mattbbpl

Only in some aspects. I still identify more with Conservatives than I do with the Libertarian party. Ron Paul is too extreme for me, but his son is a lot more palatable.

Some people can't get jobs because there isn'y any possiblity for them to get one. They aren't lazy pr uneducated. They are regular people that don't get jobs. I hope you get thatThe_Last_Ride

Then they need to look in other places. What about a job in the oil fields of North Dakota? How about a job building a power plant? There are jobs available if people were not so picky about what they did. "I have a degree" doesn't necessarily mean thatapersonwill get job with a corner office or a 6 figure salary to start out right out of college. The type of degree or the field in which the degree is in also plays a part. Everyday, I see a yong woman of about 24, appears to be an engineer, that works for Southern Company, she is pretty well set as far a job goes. She wears her hard hat and steel toed boots without a problem. How many are willing to do that?

[QUOTE="The_Last_Ride"]Some people can't get jobs because there isn'y any possiblity for them to get one. They aren't lazy pr uneducated. They are regular people that don't get jobs. I hope you get thatWhiteKnight77

Then they need to look in other places. What about a job in the oil fields of North Dakota? How about a job building a power plant? There are jobs available if people were not so picky about what they did. "I have a degree" doesn't necessarily mean thatapersonwill get job with a corner office or a 6 figure salary to start out right out of college. The type of degree or the field in which the degree is in also plays a part. Everyday, I see a yong woman of about 24, appears to be an engineer, that works for Southern Company, she is pretty well set as far a job goes. She wears her hard hat and steel toed boots without a problem. How many are willing to do that?

It seems as if there aren't even enough crappy jobs to go around to provide all the unemployed people a job:

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/04/28/one-million-applications-62000-jobs-served-at-mcdonalds/mattbbpl

North Dakota still has an unemployment rate of around 3%. I know tons of guys getting out of the Air Force and right into oil field jobs. It's dirty, and hard, but it's a really good paying job.

[QUOTE="mattbbpl"]It seems as if there aren't even enough crappy jobs to go around to provide all the unemployed people a job:

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/04/28/one-million-applications-62000-jobs-served-at-mcdonalds/airshocker

North Dakota still has an unemployment rate of around 3%. I know tons of guys getting out of the Air Force and right into oil field jobs. It's dirty, and hard, but it's a really good paying job.

Enough for full employment?mattbbpl

What do you mean?

[QUOTE="surrealnumber5"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] It's still not profit? So why were all these CEO's who were engaging is this sort of trading getting huge bonuses from their firms? This was a very profitable operation that was being run. To explain away a global financial crisis as a "difference of opinion" is laughable. The rating agencies were not bad at their jobs - they were actually very good at it. Firms such as Moody's and S&P have done very well for themselves. People just misunderstood what their job was. People thought that they were in the business of giving objective analyses of the risk of assets that are too complex and time consuming for investors to analyze on their own. But in reality their job is to just dress s*** up as gold. If you have a bad asset and you want to sell it as a AAA asset, you pay a ratings agency to give it a stamp of approval. There is a clear conflict of interest at play. There's a reason why S&P is in the middle of a federal investigation right now.

There was wide scale fraud, plain and simple. These knew they were selling junk assets. And eventually it got to the point where no one knew how much anything on their balance sheet was worth, which resulted in the largest financial collapse in modern history. These things don't happen by accident. Systemic foul play was the driving force for our current state of affairs, and it was overlooked by authorities when it was going on and it is going unpunished now.

-Sun_Tzu-

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

[QUOTE="surrealnumber5"] bubble value > burst value retaing value makes you much better comparitively but it does not mean you made a "profit" you just did not have a loss, unlike the other side of the deal, they have to pay the difference, and it sucks to be them but they never should have signed. rating agencies rate , and moodies S&P and the rest are not good at their jobs, they are not objective at all and are completely reactionary in their ratings. yes there was a hell of a lot of immoral acts done, but that is not illegal. and the banks had to get rid of these loans they were damn near forced to give, the sub prime no money down loans as there was not way the majority of them were going to be paid off.but that is what happens when you blow up a bubble with legislation like the affordable housing act. i am not going to say everyone had clean hands, and i am not going to say most people in this situation acted "responsibly" but they acted the way they had to and in their best interests. and before i leave for the evening yes some people did defraud others but they were the vast minority in this whole compound fiasco.

surrealnumber5

What are they protesting against? LustForSoul

[QUOTE="LustForSoul"]What are they protesting against? Jandurin

Haven't seen anything like this during those protests.

[QUOTE="Jandurin"][QUOTE="LustForSoul"]What are they protesting against? one_plum

Haven't seen anything like this during those protests.

estimated 3-5 thousand people protesting in NYC right now

CEOs make many more times the amount per average worker than ever. If the Occupy movement hadpinpoint direction, this is where it should focus its anger at. There has to be some way to get CEOs to take more paycuts when companies lose profits rather than laying off their work force. This is why CEOs have been seen as "greedy" in recent years.

In 1978, CEOs made 35 times the amount of the average worker.

In 2006, this ratio ballooned to 262 times that of the average worker. Only an idiot would not know that something is wrong.

I have a good source for this, but Gamespot gives me error messages whenever I put links up, so I can't post it.

[QUOTE="WhiteKnight77"]

[QUOTE="The_Last_Ride"]Some people can't get jobs because there isn'y any possiblity for them to get one. They aren't lazy pr uneducated. They are regular people that don't get jobs. I hope you get thatmattbbpl

Then they need to look in other places. What about a job in the oil fields of North Dakota? How about a job building a power plant? There are jobs available if people were not so picky about what they did. "I have a degree" doesn't necessarily mean thatapersonwill get job with a corner office or a 6 figure salary to start out right out of college. The type of degree or the field in which the degree is in also plays a part. Everyday, I see a yong woman of about 24, appears to be an engineer, that works for Southern Company, she is pretty well set as far a job goes. She wears her hard hat and steel toed boots without a problem. How many are willing to do that?

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/04/28/one-million-applications-62000-jobs-served-at-mcdonalds/

The true irony in that is previously, fast food joints were giving big signing bonuses to new hirees as they couldn't hire enough people. They alsohad starting wages at $10/hour (at least around where I live).What is strange about that and the above link is if you go to a fast food joint, you can still see that many are understaffed. Go figure.

These people do realize that they are incredibly wealthy in global terms, right?

These people do realize that they are incredibly wealthy in global terms, right?SpartanMSU

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]These people do realize that they are incredibly wealthy in global terms, right?scorch-62

Exactly. Which is why compared to the majority of the world, these people are wealthy.

I know what you're saying, that wealth is relative to where you live. Great. So If I'm one of the poorest people in the Hamptons, but still a millionaire, I guess that makes me poor. Solid logic.

I know what you're saying, that wealth is relative to where you live. Great. So If I'm one of the poorest people in the Hamptons, but still a millionaire, I guess that makes me poor. Solid logic.SpartanMSU

I don't really get the whole "Occupy" movement. I don't know what they hope to accomplish. If you are poor, just work your arse off and you will get rich. Reminds me of a lyric of a song: "Its not a case of rich or poor, its a case of self motivation and nothing more." taylor888

Good, maybe they can occupy a job now.

I don't really get the whole "Occupy" movement. I don't know what they hope to accomplish. If you are poor, just work your arse off and you will get rich. Reminds me of a lyric of a song: "Its not a case of rich or poor, its a case of self motivation and nothing more." taylor888

1. If people keep thinking everyone in that movement were protesting simply because they are not rich; I think the media accomplished their goals. Even though the movement was underwhelming from a logistics point of view, it would have been a good wake-up call on several key social/economic issues.

2. Many will agree that most of the wealthy work hard and are smart but making people believe that life is always fair and that everyone get what they deserve and some of those people start to feel they are being treated like naive idiots.

Good, maybe they can occupy a job now.

ristactionjakso

[QUOTE="taylor888"]I don't really get the whole "Occupy" movement. I don't know what they hope to accomplish. If you are poor, just work your arse off and you will get rich. Reminds me of a lyric of a song: "Its not a case of rich or poor, its a case of self motivation and nothing more." one_plum

1. If people keep thinking everyone in that movement were protesting simply because they are not rich; I think the media accomplished their goals. Even though the movement was underwhelming from a logistics point of view, it would have been a good wake-up call on several key social/economic issues.

2. Many will agree that most of the wealthy work hard and are smart but making people believe that life is always fair and that everyone get what they deserve and some of those people start to feel they are being treated like naive idiots.

[QUOTE="one_plum"]

[QUOTE="taylor888"]I don't really get the whole "Occupy" movement. I don't know what they hope to accomplish. If you are poor, just work your arse off and you will get rich. Reminds me of a lyric of a song: "Its not a case of rich or poor, its a case of self motivation and nothing more." taylor888

1. If people keep thinking everyone in that movement were protesting simply because they are not rich; I think the media accomplished their goals. Even though the movement was underwhelming from a logistics point of view, it would have been a good wake-up call on several key social/economic issues.

2. Many will agree that most of the wealthy work hard and are smart but making people believe that life is always fair and that everyone get what they deserve and some of those people start to feel they are being treated like naive idiots.