On balance, has the Catholic Church been a good thing?

Snipes_2

Yeah, I'd say so.

The saints themselves should be more than enough reason that some really strive to do good, not to mention the missionaries.

Honestly it's basically impossible to assess whether or not it's had a good impact on humanity or not given it is impossible to predict what would have happened without it.chessmaster1989

My personal biases as a Roman Catholic aside, this basically sums up my opinion on the matter. I'm finding that I agree with most of your posts actually.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]sigh-_-

http://worldhaveyoursay.wordpress.com/2009/11/13/is-the-catholic-church-a-force-for-good-in-the-world/

[QUOTE="sigh-_-"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"]Snipes_2

[QUOTE="guynamedbilly"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] The crusades weren't even started by Christians. They were trying to reclaim what was the "Holy Land" from Muslims who had previously taken it over. It also wasn't sanctioned by the Pope. What Authoritarian laws? Snipes_2

I don't even know where you got that idea about the crusades so I can't reply to that.

As for laws, surely you've heard of the execution of Joan of Arc. This was because of the church's influence on laws regarding heresy. Included in this were the Medievel and Spanish Inquisitions.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="sigh-_-"]Wrong on two counts: firstly the number was 774, and what I did there is what we call - get this! - rounding. Secondly, the figure I quoted was the increase in those who disagreed that the Catholic Church was a good thing, and therefore all of these people must previously have been unsure or agreed; in both cases, they were indeed brought to the side of Hitchens and Fry. Check your facts before posting in future, perhaps?sigh-_-

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="guynamedbilly"]

I don't even know where you got that idea about the crusades so I can't reply to that.

As for laws, surely you've heard of the execution of Joan of Arc. This was because of the church's influence on laws regarding heresy. Included in this were the Medievel and Spanish Inquisitions.

guynamedbilly

I quoted that to show that the Church didn't torture or Execute anyone and that the Death Penalty was carried out in Non Secualr Nations while the church rarely if ever carried out an execution or even torture.

has the lord of the rings been a good/bad thing?

religion is like the lord of the rings... except people take it seriously

it hasnt been good or bad IMO, maybe its bad because it probably causes a lot of ignorance in people but its also possibly good by making people so good things expecting a reward/not receiving a punishment

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="sigh-_-"]What BBC link?sigh-_-

Can you link to some "Evil" things the Church has done? We've already discussed the Crusades and Inqusition. Anything else?

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]Honestly it's basically impossible to assess whether or not it's had a good impact on humanity or not given it is impossible to predict what would have happened without it.coolbeans90

My personal biases as a Roman Catholic aside, this basically sums up my opinion on the matter. I'm finding that I agree with most of your posts actually.

That's odd, I was under the impression that we had fairly different opinions, at least on economics.

By the way, a little off topic, but what's your opinion on the negative income tax as a replacement for welfare programs? (you can PM me if you want so we don't disrupt this thread)

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]Honestly it's basically impossible to assess whether or not it's had a good impact on humanity or not given it is impossible to predict what would have happened without it.chessmaster1989

My personal biases as a Roman Catholic aside, this basically sums up my opinion on the matter. I'm finding that I agree with most of your posts actually.

That's odd, I was under the impression that we had fairly different opinions, at least on economics.

By the way, a little off topic, but what's your opinion on the negative income tax as a replacement for welfare programs? (you can PM me if you want so we don't disrupt this thread)

On economics in general, yes. On random stuffs, usually no. And the points where I you and disagree, are generally reasonable on your part.

I'll read up on it, and I believe that it was suggested by Milton Friedman, (could be wrong on that one...) but I'll shoot you a pm later tonight. Admittedly, I haven't looked much into the issue.

No, It doesn't it clearly states they were trying to regain it from the Seljuk Turks :? "assist their Christian brothers, the Byzantines, against the attacks of the Muslim Turks." Assist does not equal sanctioned. He's asking these people to go aid their fellow Christians. Read the Links to his own Personal Letters.

I quoted that to show that the Church didn't torture or Execute anyone and that the Death Penalty was carried out in Non Secualr Nations while the church rarely if ever carried out an execution or even torture.

Snipes_2

I still can't figure out why you copy pasted that again. Your own thing you quoted earlier said they "usually" punished without torture and "seldom" resorted to execution. How does that equate to "the Church didn't torture or Execute?" Where did that quote even come from anyways? It looks like it was copy-pasted mid-edit.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="sigh-_-"]Actually I did; I merely can't see a BBC link within it. Care to point out its location?sigh-_-

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] No, It doesn't it clearly states they were trying to regain it from the Seljuk Turks :? "assist their Christian brothers, the Byzantines, against the attacks of the Muslim Turks." Assist does not equal sanctioned. He's asking these people to go aid their fellow Christians. Read the Links to his own Personal Letters.

I quoted that to show that the Church didn't torture or Execute anyone and that the Death Penalty was carried out in Non Secualr Nations while the church rarely if ever carried out an execution or even torture.

guynamedbilly

I still can't figure out why you copy pasted that again. Your own thing you quoted earlier said they "usually" punished without torture and "seldom" resorted to execution. How does that equate to "the Church didn't torture or Execute?" Where did that quote even come from anyways? It looks like it was copy-pasted mid-edit.

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

My personal biases as a Roman Catholic aside, this basically sums up my opinion on the matter. I'm finding that I agree with most of your posts actually.

coolbeans90

That's odd, I was under the impression that we had fairly different opinions, at least on economics.

By the way, a little off topic, but what's your opinion on the negative income tax as a replacement for welfare programs? (you can PM me if you want so we don't disrupt this thread)

On economics in general, yes. On random stuffs, usually no. And the points where I you and disagree, are generally reasonable on your part.

I'll read up on it, and I believe that it was suggested by Milton Friedman, (could be wrong on that one...) but I'll shoot you a pm later tonight. Admittedly, I haven't looked much into the issue.

Yes, it's an idea I came across recently while reading Friedman's works (I've been dedicating time lately to reading a good deal of Keynes and Friedman). The source I read it in was his novel Free to Choose, but I'm sure it appears in other places as well.

I'm guessing you're not fond of welfare programs in general which is why I'm interested in your opinion on this.

Organized religion as a whole has been nothing but trouble since as far back as our history goes (Greeks killing Socrates). Group A kills group B because they have slightly different beliefs, group Ainstitutionally discriminates against group B because of slightly different beliefs, it's the same old **** all throughout history. Catholicism is mostly to blame for much of the acrimonious atmosphere surrounding modern religion, they have quite a history of starting wars and persecutions because of minor differences, but they're certainly not the first group of sanctimonious blowhards to come to the conclusion that the supposed infallibility of their beliefs gives them free regin to do whatever they please.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="sigh-_-"]None of which contains a link to anything affiliated with the BBC. Now, frankly I'm fed up of you being so slippery and dishonest, so I'm just going to put you out of your misery here and now: http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4043/youlose.png Yep, that's the exact figure I claimed. If you had actually watched the debate, of course, you would have known the figures were in the debate itself and had access to them. Game over.sigh-_-

You have done nothing to further this argument but accuse me of "Lying, Slandering etc..".

[QUOTE="sigh-_-"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"] You didn't read the article did you?Snipes_2

Can you link to some "Evil" things the Church has done? We've already discussed the Crusades and Inqusition. Anything else?

Thirty Years' War, the various acts of violence associated with it, persecution of Jews, persecution of philosophers and scientists whose views they held as heresy, persecution of homosexuals, etc.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

[QUOTE="sigh-_-"]Actually I did; I merely can't see a BBC link within it. Care to point out its location?theone86

Can you link to some "Evil" things the Church has done? We've already discussed the Crusades and Inqusition. Anything else?

Thirty Years' War, the various acts of violence associated with it, persecution of Jews, persecution of philosophers and scientists whose views they held as heresy, persecution of homosexuals, etc.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="sigh-_-"]:lol: Are they any lows to which you will not stoop? I stated 'nearly 800', and clarified very clearly that this was a rounded figure. You, on the other hand, said the figure was closer to 700. You have lied systematically about whether you actually watched the debate, you have lied about what I've said, and you have dug a deeper and deeper hole in trying to cover it up. The best thing for you to do would be to run away with your tail between your legs because you've done nothing but embarrass yourself this whole time.sigh-_-

[QUOTE="sigh-_-"]I'll take that gaping void of silence as a no. It's on youtube, by the way, so you have no excuse for being so lazy and dishonest - I daresay having seen two of the most eloquent speakers out there utterly flatten the opposition and convince nearly 800 audience members to their side you'll feel a little silly for claiming that they were 'obliterated'.Snipes_2

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] Directly to Debate: "That was the motion for an Intelligence Squared debate , held recently in London, which was broadcast on BBC World News last weekend." T"o find out how, watch BBC World News this coming weekend. And because we think it's important to get a world view tell us what you think about the modern Catholic Church in a special World Have Your Say on Friday 13th November. Early blog reactions here and here , and coverage in the Telegraph here.."

Can you link to some "Evil" things the Church has done? We've already discussed the Crusades and Inqusition. Anything else?

Snipes_2

Thirty Years' War, the various acts of violence associated with it, persecution of Jews, persecution of philosophers and scientists whose views they held as heresy, persecution of homosexuals, etc.

And yes, the persecution of homosexuals, the Vatican publicly calling for its parishoners to use the government to discriminate agaisnt homosexuals by not allowing them equal rights under the law.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="theone86"]

Thirty Years' War, the various acts of violence associated with it, persecution of Jews, persecution of philosophers and scientists whose views they held as heresy, persecution of homosexuals, etc.

theone86

And yes, the persecution of homosexuals, the Vatican publicly calling for its parishoners to use the government to discriminate agaisnt homosexuals by not allowing them equal rights under the law.

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] Links Please? Persecution of Homosexuals?Snipes_2

And yes, the persecution of homosexuals, the Vatican publicly calling for its parishoners to use the government to discriminate agaisnt homosexuals by not allowing them equal rights under the law.

Your lack of knowledge is not my concern, go to the library and pick up a book on it.

[QUOTE="sigh-_-"]I'll take that gaping void of silence as a no. It's on youtube, by the way, so you have no excuse for being so lazy and dishonest - I daresay having seen two of the most eloquent speakers out there utterly flatten the opposition and convince nearly 800 audience members to their side you'll feel a little silly for claiming that they were 'obliterated'.Snipes_2

I'm not Catholic. but two of my best friends in this world are both Roman Catholic.

and yes, despite the crimes it has done by it's clergy. I would say - quite simply - the Church has done a lot more good for the Western world and by extension the world.

good people i would say.

And 700 audience members voted differently, not 800Snipes_2

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] As you continue...If you're going to make outrageous claims like this, can you please back them up in the future instead of calling names and such? I'm not replying to your messages in this thread anymore, Good Day. sigh-_-

And 700 audience members voted differently, not 800Snipes_2

It appears as if...You are never going to form an actual argument.

Western culture as we know it wouldn't exist were it not for the Catholic Church, crimes and all, so yes. I like existing.Theokhoth

Catholic Church is basically responsible for Western society so it has been a great thing. wstfld

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]Western culture as we know it wouldn't exist were it not for the Catholic Church, crimes and all, so yes. I like existing.LordXelNaga

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"] You form no arguments, I'm not letting you get the last word in either. You make a thread claiming Catholicism is teh Evilz and do nothing but focus on a Number that I posted :lol:sigh-_-

You were actually the one that launched this whole "Number" argument, instead of arguing the points I made you focused on the number when you claimed I was "Lying". Whereas I responded to what I read in the link. ;)

Lol. You can't be serious.

The Church has done so many good things it's unconscionable to even think someone believes it's evil. :lol:

Wow.

Snipes_2

He never said it was evil... Way to have a mature, respectable reply.

But even though it has had it's goods, I wish the Catholic Church had never existed. We would be different, yes, but I would like existence without the Church much much more.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="sigh-_-"]Oh dear oh dear. Refer to my previous post demonstrating that you are the one responsible for kicking up a fuss about the number, not I. Now, for most people I'd be quite happy to debate the issue, but after the pitiful display you've put on for us tonight, I have no interest in arguing with you over it. Why? Because I don't like liars and I don't like debating with liars. You have lied repeatedly over what I have said, what you have said and how much research you've done, and frankly I have no desire to debate someone capable of stooping to the lows of mendacity that you have demonstrated yourself to be capable of. No doubt you'll continue your pathetic contortions by accusing me of dodging the main issue (despite the fact that quibbling over minor figures is clearly your territory, not mine); if so, let me assure you in advance that I don't give a damn what you have to say. You are an embarrassment and nothing more. Goodnight.sigh-_-

You were actually the one that launched this whole "Number" argumentSnipes_2

And 700 audience members voted differently, not 800Snipes_2

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]

Lol. You can't be serious.

The Church has done so many good things it's unconscionable to even think someone believes it's evil. :lol:

Wow.

criinok

He never said it was evil... Way to have a mature, respectable reply.

But even though it has had it's goods, I wish the Catholic Church had never existed. We would be different, yes, but I would like existence without the Church much much more.

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"]You were actually the one that launched this whole "Number" argumentsigh-_-

And 700 audience members voted differently, not 800Snipes_2