On balance, has the Catholic Church been a good thing?

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="lordreaven"] *pulss hair out* NO!!!! The Byzantine Empire NEVER EXISTED! It was the Eastern Roman Empire, there was NO founding. Constantine Divided teh Empire to help make it Easier to manage. Even then it had been done before, one time the Empire had 4 emperors at the same TIME. And the "Holyland" was predomitly Christian by 300, even before the Official conversions.lordreaven

I know it was conventionally named after Byzantium. The Byzantines never called themselves Byzantines or their land Byzantium or Byzantine Empire. But how does that prove anything about whether or not the two Empires were indeed separated?

The Greek-speaking (predominant) population called themselves "Ρωμιοι" (Romi(i)) because they thought they were a continuation perhaps of Rome, but that doesnt mean that they identified themselves with the Western Roman Empire.

[QUOTE="lordreaven"]

There was no such thing as a "Byzantine" Emperor, It was the Roman Empreror, read the Alexiad sometiem (writen by Emperors Daughter Anna Comnena).

We have done research on her work in our Byzantine cIasses in uni and the first thing it was pointed out to us was that Anna Comnena is not a very trustworthy source as she often exaggerates and presents the events she is recording from her own "elevated" sphere.

This is true to a certain extend for many Byzantine historians. Historiography of the time was not an objective science like it is now.

[QUOTE="lordreaven"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]Just because there was a precedent record of the Empire being divided into portions for better management is not reason to consider that that was exactly the case with the Byzantime Empire ultimately. It may have started like that but it definitely ended as them being two different Empires.

I know it was conventionally named after Byzantium. The Byzantines never called themselves Byzantines or their land Byzantium or Byzantine Empire. But how does that prove anything about whether or not the two Empires were indeed separated?

I guess when they are'nt raping young boys, them priests are mighty fine people. No worries as long as good old popie keeps our backs safe though huh?

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="lordreaven"]

There was no such thing as a "Byzantine" Emperor, It was the Roman Empreror, read the Alexiad sometiem (writen by Emperors Daughter Anna Comnena).

lordreaven

We have done research on her work in our Byzantine cIasses in uni and the first thing it was pointed out to us was that Anna Comnena is not a very trustworthy source as she often exaggerates and presents the events she is recording from her own "elevated" sphere.

This is true to a certain extend for many Byzantine historians. Historiography of the time was not an objective science like it is now.

Added to my previous my point is that Anna Comnena lived in a time when the Byzantine Empire was dwindling and the reaction to imminent "disaster) were large dosages of idealism routed to notions of a heritage directly from the Roman Empire (before the Division). That doesnt mean there was no such division.

People just looked to the past and glorified it to a big extend.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="lordreaven"] The only reason that we call the Eastern Roman Empire "Byzantium" is becasue the Westren Roman Empire collapsed, so to avoid confusion historians called the ERE "Byzantium", and it also had a double purpose of making it easier for the Holy Roman Empire the true heirs to that legacy (they had no relation what so ever).lordreaven

I know it was conventionally named after Byzantium. The Byzantines never called themselves Byzantines or their land Byzantium or Byzantine Empire. But how does that prove anything about whether or not the two Empires were indeed separated?

I misinterpreted you.

The separation of the two using that conventional term to distinguish them is important lest someone throws the word "Roman" around and not specify what they mean and then form arguments from nothing. People do take advantage of such lack of clarification that not 100% obvious naming can need.

The Greek-speaking (predominant) population called themselves "Ρωμιοι" (Romi(i)) because they thought they were a continuation perhaps of Rome, but that doesnt mean that they identified themselves with the Western Roman Empire.

Teenaged

[QUOTE="lordreaven"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]So you are just disagreeing about the name?

I know it was conventionally named after Byzantium. The Byzantines never called themselves Byzantines or their land Byzantium or Byzantine Empire. But how does that prove anything about whether or not the two Empires were indeed separated?

I misinterpreted you.

The separation of the two using that conventional term to distinguish them is important lest someone throws the word "Roman" around and not specify what they mean and then form arguments from nothing. People do take advantage of such lack of clarification that not 100% obvious naming can need.

I guess when they are'nt raping young boys, them priests are mighty fine people. No worries as long as good old popie keeps our backs safe though huh?

Filthybastrd

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

The Greek-speaking (predominant) population called themselves "Ρωμιοι" (Romi(i)) because they thought they were a continuation perhaps of Rome, but that doesnt mean that they identified themselves with the Western Roman Empire.

fidosim

They did identify themselves with the ideals of the Western Roman Empire and what Rome symbolises but not with the people that comprised the WRE or the religious authorities there.

In other words they didnt identify with for instance the Pope.

And that shows a clear distinction between the WRE and the ERE on a political level (I dont know if that adjective conveys what I want to say, I hope it does).

You have to remember that the catholic church is not actually responsible for them, the parent's victims are the ones responsible for everything bad that happens. God says so. Do you remember when during the plagues in Europe catholics accused those who had good healthy practices of worshiping the devil because they didn't become sick? Being catholic is the best because you basically can come up with whatever excuse to act in the most horrible ways. And making a mistake like killing thousands of innocent people is actually cool because then you can "be forgiven" by God himself! It's always a win/win situation being a catholic and/or christian.kuraimen

[QUOTE="hydratedleaf"][QUOTE="Silenthps"] The other two showed how the Catholic church was a force for good, which was what they were supposed to do. Pointing out the flaws of the church does show how the Catholic church was not a force for good. All it would do is prove that the Catholic church is both a force for good and a force for bad, but it wouldn't prove how it is not a force for good. Silenthps

O...kay...

Actually the percentage of priests molesting children is under the percentage of society in general.LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="fidosim"][QUOTE="Teenaged"]

The Greek-speaking (predominant) population called themselves "Ρωμιοι" (Romi(i)) because they thought they were a continuation perhaps of Rome, but that doesnt mean that they identified themselves with the Western Roman Empire.

They did identify themselves with the ideals of the Western Roman Empire and what Rome symbolises but not with the people that comprised the WRE or the religious authorities there.

In other words they didnt identify with for instance the Pope.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="fidosim"] I have no idea how this thread became solely about the Byzantines, but they totally did identify themselves with the Western Empire. From the partition of the Empire to the Byzantine demise in 1453 they fought and governed under the S.P.Q.R. banner (senate and Roman people). The fact that they felt they represented a city that they didn't even control politically runs contrary to what you're arguing; not to mention the early efforts of Justinian to reclaim parts of the Empire through invasions of Italy, North Africa, and Spain. The cultural reality of the East changed once its connection to the West was severed, but it still considered itself very much Roman. lordreaven

They did identify themselves with the ideals of the Western Roman Empire and what Rome symbolises but not with the people that comprised the WRE or the religious authorities there.

In other words they didnt identify with for instance the Pope.

[QUOTE="kuraimen"]You have to remember that the catholic church is not actually responsible for them, the parent's victims are the ones responsible for everything bad that happens. God says so. Do you remember when during the plagues in Europe catholics accused those who had good healthy practices of worshiping the devil because they didn't become sick? Being catholic is the best because you basically can come up with whatever excuse to act in the most horrible ways. And making a mistake like killing thousands of innocent people is actually cool because then you can "be forgiven" by God himself! It's always a win/win situation being a catholic and/or christian.LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="Filthybastrd"]

I guess when they are'nt raping young boys, them priests are mighty fine people. No worries as long as good old popie keeps our backs safe though huh?

kuraimen

LOL, well said. I was getting ready for hatred coming my way. That's only natural of course since religion is all about emotion and not about sense at all.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Actually the percentage of priests molesting children is under the percentage of society in general.hydratedleaf

[QUOTE="hydratedleaf"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Actually the percentage of priests molesting children is under the percentage of society in general.LJS9502_basic

The catholic church is one of the biggest criminal organizations in the world.

Anyone heard of the Black Pope?

He is the Jesuit General. If anyone wants to dig further I recommend researching Vatican assassins by Eric Jon Phelps.

Well for sure they may have done some good things but some things like threatening to kill... wow forgot his name (tiredness ftl) for saying that the world infact rotates around the sun not the other way round.

For sure they did alot of horrible things but so have other religions. One of the reasons why I dislike religion :P

It's an organization which has successfully prevented the progress of human civilization on multiple occasions, a proponent of genocide in times past, and still to this day is an institution of bigotry. Guess what my answer is?HoolaHoopMan

Well said, for example the succesfully postponed your average europeans ability to read and write for ages.

It's also an organization that introduced the Gregorian calendar thanks to Pope Gregory XIII going from a 13 month year, to some ill conceived 12 month calendar. We have 13 full moons a year and there are 13 female menstrual cycles a year. Their agenda -to through us out of sync with nature. Cameron was onto something with Avatar.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="hydratedleaf"]Source?hydratedleaf

The catholic church is one of the biggest criminal organizations in the world.

Anyone heard of the Black Pope?

He is the Jesuit General. If anyone wants to dig further I recommend researching Vatican assassins by Eric Jon Phelps.

sgotskillz

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="hydratedleaf"]Yes, that doesn't really cut it, does it? The percentage of priests molesting children is not the percentage of priests accused of molesting children.hydratedleaf

It's an organization which has successfully prevented the progress of human civilization on multiple occasions, a proponent of genocide in times past, and still to this day is an institution of bigotry. Guess what my answer is?HoolaHoopMan

No, definitely not. It should have never been created in the first place, and there's no reason for it to exist anymore.

[QUOTE="sgotskillz"]

The catholic church is one of the biggest criminal organizations in the world.

Anyone heard of the Black Pope?

He is the Jesuit General. If anyone wants to dig further I recommend researching Vatican assassins by Eric Jon Phelps.

LJS9502_basic

Of course I've looked into Phelps. Not exactly the best of people according to who? TheChristian communities? People will go to great lengths to discredit someone's accountability.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="sgotskillz"]

The catholic church is one of the biggest criminal organizations in the world.

Anyone heard of the Black Pope?

He is the Jesuit General. If anyone wants to dig further I recommend researching Vatican assassins by Eric Jon Phelps.

sgotskillz

Of course I've looked into Phelps. Not exactly the best of people according to who? TheChristian communities? People will go to great lengths to discredit someone's accountability.

[QUOTE="sgotskillz"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] More to the point....you might want to study up on Eric Jon Phelps. Not exactly the best of people.......')LJS9502_basic

Of course I've looked into Phelps. Not exactly the best of people according to who? TheChristian communities? People will go to great lengths to discredit someone's accountability.

According to who? A religious fanatic? The Catholic church has also been discredited. See my point?