On balance, has the Catholic Church been a good thing?

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="sigh-_-"]Oh dear. You made the same dishonest excuse for an argument and - on this very page! - I pointed out: 'You didn't even do that - it said 'over 700', which was right, and you stated '700', which was wrong. Misreading your own source - bravo.' Debating people who have the memory of a goldfish isn't my thing, and I'm fed up of going round in circles with your endless chain of lies, so - goodnight.sigh-_-

"I don't see any need to insult your intelligence; you're doing that job yourself"

Au Contraire my Friend.

Religion is not the only thing that has caused horrible things to occur in our times. Something called Politics, greed, and hatred has had a much bigger impact to evil in my opinion then religion.

well I read through this all and I can only say 2 things... "Sigh".. And 2ndly wow people don't understand the church at all!ferrari2001

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="sigh-_-"]Except that I did, by demonstrating that your claim to have reiterated the figure in your link was a lie, because you misquoted it. And don't worry - I don't see any need to insult your intelligence; you're doing that job yourself.sigh-_-

Western culture as we know it wouldn't exist were it not for the Catholic Church, crimes and all, so yes. I like existing.Theokhoth

[QUOTE="Snipes_2"][QUOTE="sigh-_-"]Yes, I'd like to highlight the fact that in 3 pages of wasting my time over a minor figure, you've not once found it within you admit that you were wrong about it. That is all.sigh-_-

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]Western culture as we know it wouldn't exist were it not for the Catholic Church, crimes and all, so yes. I like existing.bbkkristian

the catholic church is the only thing that drives this planet and gives it any good

What standards are you using to judge them? Who determines what is supposedly right and wrong? They simply are an organization. The church itself may be different than the bureacracy that runs it.

[QUOTE="bbkkristian"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]Western culture as we know it wouldn't exist were it not for the Catholic Church, crimes and all, so yes. I like existing.lordreaven

[QUOTE="lordreaven"][QUOTE="bbkkristian"] For once I agree with you, without it, America itself would not be here because thats what the pilgrims were trying to get away from. Religious tolerance. (Pilgrims, right? :P )bbkkristian

Not even when the pope and members of the Catholic Church helped out the Jews the Holocaust in secrecy?

[QUOTE="sigh-_-"][QUOTE="Snipes_2"] IF you had looked back on your post you claimed 800, which 774 is clearly not. ;)Snipes_2

You have done nothing to further this argument but accuse me of "Lying, Slandering etc..".

Also his accusations are valid. After he posted a post proving you wrong, all you had to respond with was "well you said it was 800 while it was just 774" which is not even an accurate accusation.

He should be the one to demand of you to form a coherent argument and for you to stick to it in stead of evading the points.

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"] True, however, as neither the slave trade nor Nazisim ever contributed any good whereas the Catholic church contributed significant good (sometimes in direct opposition to Nazism and the slave trade), and since the Catholic Church as a whole does not hold the power or the will to commit such crimes as others leading the organization has in past centuries, I think the Catholic church has, in its general unity of global communities under a single banner, contributed more good to humanity than evil, significant though its evil contributions may be. The Catholic Church as an organization should not be judged, I think, by actions committed by its leadership hundreds of years ago, as the Catholic Church has had various impacts on culture as it's had various leaders. Pope John Paul II, for instance, was a champion of human rights and religious unity; whereas Pope Paul IV (the Pope behind the Inquisitions) was, well, not. Should another man with the beliefs of Pope Paul IV become pope (very highly unlikely, but just in case), the Church no longer has the power or influence to orchestrate another Inquisition, at least not one that would be remotely successful in any part of the European or American war. The Church's leadership has also apologized for the actions of the organization (such as the trial of Galileo and the Inquisitions), which is really all it can do in this day and age, as time can't be rewound.Snipes_2

Thats a tall order.. How bout the fact that the Catholic church/faith contributed to the genocide of the native population within the new world? Through both Port and Spanish forces.. Its absurd to some how claim they are good or bad, you can't put a price on that its a mix bag..

Uh basic history? Catholic missonaries in both places like Brazil and California for instance were promoted by the church.. There they pretty much imprisoned the Native population into forced labor as well as being forced to convert.. Seriously you can't argue against this, the Catholic church was in full support in civilizing the "savage".. The Catholic church is not godly.. Its no utterly evil.. In fact it acts pretty much as a government organization has through the ages.. They are not a force of good or evil, they are just there.. And to some how suggest "western" culture would never existed them with out them, is ridiculous.. Its a huge part of it, but thats only because the Catholic church became the dominating organization due to the Roman Empire... If it didn't exist, there would be another organization that would have taken the void.... The only thing I can say is how utterly corrupt it is.. The mere fact its one of the big three political forces through out history (Monarchy, Nobility, AND the church) goes to show just how corrupt all organizations were.. That they controlled numerous political governments, and owned vast lands..

To suggest them as a force of good, or a force of evil is completely ignorant of historical accounts.. Its a mixed bag.. Furthermore Pope Urban that accepted the first crusades said that killing Muslims were the path to heaven.. So yet again, it is ridiculous to claim they are a force of good or evil.. Not to mention HYPOCRITICAL.. I see so they are responsble for all the supposed good they have done.. But have absolutely NO responsibility in the evils that has happened?

You're right, and it was this very issue that led to the founding of the Anglican Church, the denomination of which I'm part; however, their contribution to the realm of literature was, even with these setbacks, unparalleled until the printing press was invented. Had they not done this, we very well may not have had ANY access to much of the Greek philosophy that has shaped the entire world.

Theokhoth

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="sigh-_-"]This thread is about the Catholic Church itself, not its laity. Anyway, Pope John Paul II himself apologised for the Crusades - do you think he was wrong to do so?sigh-_-

[QUOTE="sigh-_-"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]I know what this thread is about...and I still find it offensive.LJS9502_basic

I am a Roman Catholic. I would vote for the most part, yes. While the Catholic Church (why are we specifically looking at the RCC? What about Christianity in general?) has done some bad things in the past, I would vote it has done more good. Just because some people have done bad things doesn't mean I'm going to stop being Catholic. A priest that molests a child is not the "Catholic Church." I think this was a rather badly worded topic. Wouldn't it make sense to say "On balance, have Roman Catholics been a good thing?" While I am Roman Catholic, I am not the "Roman Catholic Church." I think the OP should have addressed us as individuals, not the Church as a whole (meaning we are all good or all bad).

To top things off TC, what have you contributed to society that is good?

I am a Roman Catholic. I would vote for the most part, yes. While the Catholic Church (why are we specifically looking at the RCC? What about Christianity in general?) has done some bad things in the past, I would vote it has done more good. Just because some people have done bad things doesn't mean I'm going to stop being Catholic. A priest that molests a child is not the "Catholic Church." I think this was a rather badly worded topic. Wouldn't it make sense to say "On balance, have Roman Catholics been a good thing?" While I am Roman Catholic, I am not the "Roman Catholic Church." I think the OP should have addressed us as individuals, not the Church as a whole (meaning we are all good or all bad).

To top things off TC, what have you contributed to society that is good?

toxic_jackal

[QUOTE="toxic_jackal"]

I am a Roman Catholic. I would vote for the most part, yes. While the Catholic Church (why are we specifically looking at the RCC? What about Christianity in general?) has done some bad things in the past, I would vote it has done more good. Just because some people have done bad things doesn't mean I'm going to stop being Catholic. A priest that molests a child is not the "Catholic Church." I think this was a rather badly worded topic. Wouldn't it make sense to say "On balance, have Roman Catholics been a good thing?" While I am Roman Catholic, I am not the "Roman Catholic Church." I think the OP should have addressed us as individuals, not the Church as a whole (meaning we are all good or all bad).

To top things off TC, what have you contributed to society that is good?

sigh-_-

[QUOTE="sigh-_-"][QUOTE="toxic_jackal"]

I am a Roman Catholic. I would vote for the most part, yes. While the Catholic Church (why are we specifically looking at the RCC? What about Christianity in general?) has done some bad things in the past, I would vote it has done more good. Just because some people have done bad things doesn't mean I'm going to stop being Catholic. A priest that molests a child is not the "Catholic Church." I think this was a rather badly worded topic. Wouldn't it make sense to say "On balance, have Roman Catholics been a good thing?" While I am Roman Catholic, I am not the "Roman Catholic Church." I think the OP should have addressed us as individuals, not the Church as a whole (meaning we are all good or all bad).

To top things off TC, what have you contributed to society that is good?

LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="sigh-_-"]I was referring to the clergy and the institution itself rather than its laity, hence I think my wording is reasonable. What is the relevance of my contributions to society?sigh-_-

Unless there's a way to predict what would have happened without the Catholic Church I don't think it's possible to answer your question.

[QUOTE="toxic_jackal"]

I am a Roman Catholic. I would vote for the most part, yes. While the Catholic Church (why are we specifically looking at the RCC? What about Christianity in general?) has done some bad things in the past, I would vote it has done more good. Just because some people have done bad things doesn't mean I'm going to stop being Catholic. A priest that molests a child is not the "Catholic Church." I think this was a rather badly worded topic. Wouldn't it make sense to say "On balance, have Roman Catholics been a good thing?" While I am Roman Catholic, I am not the "Roman Catholic Church." I think the OP should have addressed us as individuals, not the Church as a whole (meaning we are all good or all bad).

To top things off TC, what have you contributed to society that is good?

sigh-_-

The problem with addressing it as an institution and just the clergy, without the laity, means you are not taking everyone into account. That depends on how you define "laity" as well, since there are practicing Catholics (me, for example), Catholics-in-name-only (claim to be Catholic, but aren't practicing nor know anything about Catholicism), lapsed Catholics (people who once practiced Catholicism), etc. An institution is almost a community of people; it is not run by the Pope, it is run by all Roman Catholics. Corrupt individuals exist in every "institution"; many use religion as an excuse to further their own ends. There are also many that have contributed good things to the Roman Catholic Church as an institution (Saints, for example, are big ones).

I'm not sure what you are TC (if you're agnostic, atheist, etc.) but when I was an agnostic I viewed religion, especially Christianity, as having nothing good to add to society. When I came back to the Church, I learned that while evils have been done in the names of religion (or without religion, since most wars have had nothing to do with religion), the good that came out of it was superior and far stronger. My question of asking what good you have contributed to society is relevant as you can essentially input anything into that question. "On balance, has X been a good thing?" What constitutes "good"? You'll get about a million different definitions from people on what they consider "good."

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="sigh-_-"]Because?sigh-_-

Let's change your topic title and insert an ethnic group, race, sexual orientation, gender etc. What do you think the outcome to this thread would be?

[QUOTE="sigh-_-"][QUOTE="toxic_jackal"]

I am a Roman Catholic. I would vote for the most part, yes. While the Catholic Church (why are we specifically looking at the RCC? What about Christianity in general?) has done some bad things in the past, I would vote it has done more good. Just because some people have done bad things doesn't mean I'm going to stop being Catholic. A priest that molests a child is not the "Catholic Church." I think this was a rather badly worded topic. Wouldn't it make sense to say "On balance, have Roman Catholics been a good thing?" While I am Roman Catholic, I am not the "Roman Catholic Church." I think the OP should have addressed us as individuals, not the Church as a whole (meaning we are all good or all bad).

To top things off TC, what have you contributed to society that is good?

toxic_jackal

The problem with addressing it as an institution and just the clergy, without the laity, means you are not taking everyone into account. That depends on how you define "laity" as well, since there are practicing Catholics (me, for example), Catholics-in-name-only (claim to be Catholic, but aren't practicing nor know anything about Catholicism), lapsed Catholics (people who once practiced Catholicism), etc. An institution is almost a community of people; it is not run by the Pope, it is run by all Roman Catholics. Corrupt individuals exist in every "institution"; many use religion as an excuse to further their own ends. There are also many that have contributed good things to the Roman Catholic Church as an institution (Saints, for example, are big ones).

I'm not sure what you are TC (if you're agnostic, atheist, etc.) but when I was an agnostic I viewed religion, especially Christianity, as having nothing good to add to society. When I came back to the Church, I learned that while evils have been done in the names of religion (or without religion, since most wars have had nothing to do with religion), the good that came out of it was superior and far stronger. My question of asking what good you have contributed to society is relevant as you can essentially input anything into that question. "On balance, has X been a good thing?" What constitutes "good"? You'll get about a million different definitions from people on what they consider "good."

[QUOTE="sigh-_-"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Ah no answer then. Remember the saying....when you point a finger at someone there are four pointing back....LJS9502_basic

Let's change your topic title and insert an ethnic group, race, sexual orientation, gender etc. What do you think the outcome to this thread would be?LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="sigh-_-"]:lol: Right, so having totally ignored my earlier question about John Paul II's apology for the crusades, you now go on to accuse me of evasiveness. Bravo.sigh-_-

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Let's change your topic title and insert an ethnic group, race, sexual orientation, gender etc. What do you think the outcome to this thread would be?sigh-_-

[QUOTE="sigh-_-"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Let's change your topic title and insert an ethnic group, race, sexual orientation, gender etc. What do you think the outcome to this thread would be?LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="sigh-_-"]I don't know or care, because I have no interest in taking part in thought experiments based on category errors. I think you know what I mean.sigh-_-

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="sigh-_-"]Um, I was kind of banking on you not claiming to know better than the Pope about the Catholic Church's ugly history of Crusades.sigh-_-

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="sigh-_-"]And I don't give a damn, because you and I know very well that ethnic groups, races, sexual orientations and genders are immutable characteristics and the Catholic Church is an institution, and one to which belonging is wholly optional. What a fatuous comparison.sigh-_-