Pirating Music (right or wrong)

Tell me, what determines what is "Morally right" and "morally wrong"? You are an atheist, so it is not god. Are you born with these morals? Are we then to assume all life is born with the same morals, and thus must adhere to these "Genetic Moralities"? What determines what is "Right" and what is "Wrong"?

Oh, and one more addendum. Where, at all, did i saw Piracy was right? Nowhere, i just said it isnt a universal truth that all people are born with the knowledge of.

I'm just being a pain in the ass and as far as i'm concerned, i make a good devil's advocate.

Tolwan

Accepting any media that anyone has offered to you is no different than photocopying pages from a textbook or duplicating a VHS tape (the tech was made widely available), except now that the whole P2P revolution has occurred, big business is scared crapless.

Maybe it's time for a new model of media distribution, and NOT a crackdown on regular people...

Tell me, what determines what is "Morally right" and "morally wrong"? You are an atheist, so it is not god. Are you born with these morals? Are we then to assume all life is born with the same morals, and thus must adhere to these "Genetic Moralities"? What determines what is "Right" and what is "Wrong"?

Oh, and one more addendum. Where, at all, did i saw Piracy was right? Nowhere, i just said it isnt a universal truth that all people are born with the knowledge of.

I'm just being a pain in the ass and as far as i'm concerned, i make a good devil's advocate.

Tolwan

Logic, my friend. It is illogical to argue that some people should be paid fully for the services they render simply because they CAN'T be taken for free, whereas others should be paid only a fraction of what they rightfully earn simply because what they produce CAN be taken for free. I'm not atheist actually (agnostic), but nor do I ascribe to the notion of universal morality. That said, there are very few instances where I would condone the act of imposing one's will on someone else's creation. And you need look no further than how you would feel if it were done to you to know whether it is morally acceptable or not. I may not be religious, but I most certainly agree with the notion that you should do unto others what you would have them do unto you.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="GodLovesDead"]

And you think pirates would buy musicIt's not plainly wrong at all. Pop musicians making millions of dollars for writing catchy pop-tunes that took them two days to write is wrong. If piracy wasn't around - all that'd be left is pop music.GodLovesDead

The only music you'd know about was what you heard on the radio, television, and from friends. Chances are you wouldn't be listening to The Cure unless you heard a song from them before purchasing one of their albums.

Pending ownage....

[QUOTE="Tolwan"]

Tell me, what determines what is "Morally right" and "morally wrong"? You are an atheist, so it is not god. Are you born with these morals? Are we then to assume all life is born with the same morals, and thus must adhere to these "Genetic Moralities"? What determines what is "Right" and what is "Wrong"?

Oh, and one more addendum. Where, at all, did i saw Piracy was right? Nowhere, i just said it isnt a universal truth that all people are born with the knowledge of.

I'm just being a pain in the ass and as far as i'm concerned, i make a good devil's advocate.

famicommander

Why is it morally wrong? Why is everyone granted the right to life liberty and property? Perhaps Survival of the fittest is right. Perhaps only the strong should survive. What decides what is right and what is wrong?

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="GodLovesDead"]

And you think pirates would buy musicIt's not plainly wrong at all. Pop musicians making millions of dollars for writing catchy pop-tunes that took them two days to write is wrong. If piracy wasn't around - all that'd be left is pop music.GodLovesDead

The only music you'd know about was what you heard on the radio, television, and from friends. Chances are you wouldn't be listening to The Cure unless you heard a song from them before purchasing one of their albums.

Why is it morally wrong? Why is everyone granted the right to life liberty and property? Perhaps Survival of the fittest is right. Perhaps only the strong should survive. What decides what is right and what is wrong?

Tolwan

[QUOTE="famicommander"][QUOTE="Tolwan"]

Tell me, what determines what is "Morally right" and "morally wrong"? You are an atheist, so it is not god. Are you born with these morals? Are we then to assume all life is born with the same morals, and thus must adhere to these "Genetic Moralities"? What determines what is "Right" and what is "Wrong"?

Oh, and one more addendum. Where, at all, did i saw Piracy was right? Nowhere, i just said it isnt a universal truth that all people are born with the knowledge of.

I'm just being a pain in the ass and as far as i'm concerned, i make a good devil's advocate.

Tolwan

Why is it morally wrong? Why is everyone granted the right to life liberty and property? Perhaps Survival of the fittest is right. Perhaps only the strong should survive. What decides what is right and what is wrong?

What they learned in Sunday School? /shrug

And apparently doing drugs and drinking isn't wrong, so failure there. It isn't even stealing property imo, seeing we listen to it, it's not like we steal it so no one can listen to it and we keep it to ourselves. Then we plagarize it or something.

[QUOTE="GodLovesDead"]It's not plainly wrong at all. Pop musicians making millions of dollars for writing catchy pop-tunes that took them two days to write is wrong. If piracy wasn't around - all that'd be left is pop music.pianist

Doubtful. Do remember that most great music is written by people who are passionate about it and write it as much for themselves as for anyone else. But again... THEY should be the ones to decide if they are to be paid for their music or not. You claim that it is not plainly wrong, yet you have not yet countered that point.

I don't like the fact that pop musicians make millions on crappy music anymore than you do - but that's what most people want to hear, dude. It's not anyone's place to tell these people they can't like crappy music. And it's certainly not our place to tell the creators of that crappy music what they should or should not do with their crappy music.

The only way to for the creator's music to be heard is by getting signed to a label - and no label is going to sell that creator's music for free.

[QUOTE="famicommander"][QUOTE="Tolwan"]

Tell me, what determines what is "Morally right" and "morally wrong"? You are an atheist, so it is not god. Are you born with these morals? Are we then to assume all life is born with the same morals, and thus must adhere to these "Genetic Moralities"? What determines what is "Right" and what is "Wrong"?

Oh, and one more addendum. Where, at all, did i saw Piracy was right? Nowhere, i just said it isnt a universal truth that all people are born with the knowledge of.

I'm just being a pain in the ass and as far as i'm concerned, i make a good devil's advocate.

Tolwan

Why is it morally wrong? Why is everyone granted the right to life liberty and property? Perhaps Survival of the fittest is right. Perhaps only the strong should survive. What decides what is right and what is wrong?

[QUOTE="Tolwan"]

Why is it morally wrong? Why is everyone granted the right to life liberty and property? Perhaps Survival of the fittest is right. Perhaps only the strong should survive. What decides what is right and what is wrong?

LJS9502_basic

The bands in the music industry seem hardly worried about piracy except old washed up rock stars like Gene Simmons that want to lock up all the kids that participate in piracy.

Last time I checked you aren't in the mainstream music industry, so how would you even know if it really does effect the band?

What they learned in Sunday School? /shrug

And apparently doing drugs and drinking isn't wrong, so failure there. It isn't even stealing property imo, seeing we listen to it, it's not like we steal it so no one can listen to it and we keep it to ourselves. Then we plagarize it or something.

goodlay

Stealing the work of another...even if it isn't something that can be physically touched is wrong.

[QUOTE="Tolwan"]

Why is it morally wrong? Why is everyone granted the right to life liberty and property? Perhaps Survival of the fittest is right. Perhaps only the strong should survive. What decides what is right and what is wrong?

LJS9502_basic

So war is wrong? Even in self defense? What if the subjugation of others benefits humanity as a whole? What if off the backs of the poor and weak we can create an advanced and superior society to what we have today, even if there are those who do not get to benefit. Why is it wrong if it hurts another?

[QUOTE="goodlay"]

What they learned in Sunday School? /shrug

And apparently doing drugs and drinking isn't wrong, so failure there. It isn't even stealing property imo, seeing we listen to it, it's not like we steal it so no one can listen to it and we keep it to ourselves. Then we plagarize it or something.

LJS9502_basic

Stealing the work of another...even if it isn't something that can be physically touched is wrong.

I have yet to see any bands fail because of piracy, seriously. Someone downloading their song for free instead of paying 1 dollar for it on Itunes is irrelevant to a band like Muse, or The Killers, or whoever you like.

The bands in the music industry seem hardly worried about piracy except old washed up rock stars like Gene Simmons that want to lock up all the kids that participate in piracy.

Last time I checked you aren't in the mainstream music industry, so how would you even know if it really does effect the band?

goodlay

Exactly how did you check into what I do by the way? You don't know me.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Tolwan"]

Why is it morally wrong? Why is everyone granted the right to life liberty and property? Perhaps Survival of the fittest is right. Perhaps only the strong should survive. What decides what is right and what is wrong?

Tolwan

So war is wrong? Even in self defense? What if the subjugation of others benefits humanity as a whole? What if off the backs of the poor and weak we can create and advanced and superior society to what we have today, even if there are those who do not get to benefit. Why is it wrong if it hurts another?

...and this dog-eat-dog attitude is precisely why you are a McCain supporter...

So war is wrong? Even in self defense? What if the subjugation of others benefits humanity as a whole? What if off the backs of the poor and weak we can create an advanced and superior society to what we have today, even if there are those who do not get to benefit. Why is it wrong if it hurts another?

Tolwan

The only way to for the creator's music to be heard is by getting signed to a label - and no label is going to sell that creator's music for free.

GodLovesDead

The artists agree to the terms of the contracts they sign. That was their decision, and so whatever the label does with their music is, by extension, endorsed by the artist. For the record, some artists market themselves. They don't reach as wide an audience... but it's not an artist's role to provide music to everybody. An artists ONLY role is to find satisfaction with his or her life. If that involves record companies and bags of money, they should be free to pursue that to the full extent they can achieve. If they, like me, prefer to cater to a much smaller, local crowd, so be it.

It still boils down to the same point... whoever creates the work has the right to decide what is done with it. Signing it over to a label to mass produce it does certainly benefit an artist who's in the game for fame.

[QUOTE="GodLovesDead"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="GodLovesDead"]

And you think pirates would buy musicIt's not plainly wrong at all. Pop musicians making millions of dollars for writing catchy pop-tunes that took them two days to write is wrong. If piracy wasn't around - all that'd be left is pop music.LJS9502_basic

The only music you'd know about was what you heard on the radio, television, and from friends. Chances are you wouldn't be listening to The Cure unless you heard a song from them before purchasing one of their albums.

The Cure is a popular band - obviously you would have heard it off the radio. Now please tell me which radio station plays Emperor. Or television station. Or anything. The only possible way I could have heard Emperor's music is through piracy. And through piracy, I appreciated the music and purchased their albums.

My point is that piracy balances the industry out so that it's more than just the popular bands that get listen to.

[QUOTE="GodLovesDead"]

The only way to for the creator's music to be heard is by getting signed to a label - and no label is going to sell that creator's music for free.

pianist

The artists agree to the terms of the contracts they sign. That was their decision, and so whatever the label does with their music is, by extension, endorsed by the artist. For the record, some artists market themselves. They don't reach as wide an audience... but it's not an artist's role to provide music to everybody. An artists ONLY role is to find satisfaction with his or her life. If that involves record companies and bags of money, they should be free to pursue that to the full extent they can achieve. If they, like me, prefer to cater to a much smaller, local crowd, so be it.

It still boils down to the same point... whoever creates the work has the right to decide what is done with it. Signing it over to a label to mass produce it does certainly benefit an artist who's in the game for fame.

And you think music artists deserve more than the millions of dollars they already make?

It's right. You are actually helping musicians by listening to them. It's better than not knowing about them and on the long run, it makes you buy more music.

DVDs, some rare cds and what is the most important for any bands, tickets and shirts.

I have more than 30 music shirts, more than an hundred cds, around 20 concert dvds and I have gone to a bunch of concerts. Downloading music actually make me buy more stuff than I would ever have.

It's actually a good things, you **** the money greedy distributors and you help the bands recognition.

[QUOTE="Tolwan"]

So war is wrong? Even in self defense? What if the subjugation of others benefits humanity as a whole? What if off the backs of the poor and weak we can create an advanced and superior society to what we have today, even if there are those who do not get to benefit. Why is it wrong if it hurts another?

LJS9502_basic

Why are they immoral? You are avoiding the question. What makes it immoral? So even if it benefits society, it is immoral and wrong? Why, what's dictating this?

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="GodLovesDead"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="GodLovesDead"]

And you think pirates would buy musicIt's not plainly wrong at all. Pop musicians making millions of dollars for writing catchy pop-tunes that took them two days to write is wrong. If piracy wasn't around - all that'd be left is pop music.GodLovesDead

The only music you'd know about was what you heard on the radio, television, and from friends. Chances are you wouldn't be listening to The Cure unless you heard a song from them before purchasing one of their albums.

The Cure is a popular band - obviously you would have heard it off the radio. Now please tell me which radio station plays Emperor. Or television station. Or anything. The only possible way I could have heard Emperor's music is through piracy. And through piracy, I appreciated the music and purchased their albums.

My point is that piracy balances the industry out so that it's more than just the popular bands that get listen to.

I have yet to see any bands fail because of piracy, seriously. Someone downloading their song for free instead of paying 1 dollar for it on Itunes is irrelevant to a band like Muse, or The Killers, or whoever you like.

goodlay

I have to get to work in a few hours so I need to get some sleep. Justification=/= right.

[QUOTE="goodlay"]

The bands in the music industry seem hardly worried about piracy except old washed up rock stars like Gene Simmons that want to lock up all the kids that participate in piracy.

Last time I checked you aren't in the mainstream music industry, so how would you even know if it really does effect the band?

LJS9502_basic

Exactly how did you check into what I do by the way? You don't know me.

And if the band is really popular the mainstream people will just buy it anyways. For example, im going to the Rush concert, and I barely paid 100 dollars for a seat up close to the stage and band. Would you feel ripped off for that? I really doubt you would. Also like someone else stated in this thread, over 85% of the revenue of a CD goes to the greedy recording company, and we all know that they are poor as hell :roll:

No I don't, but I can tell from that nervous comeback that you obviously aren't involved in the mainstream music industry. Celebrities don't exactly post on GS, kay.

The Cure is a popular band - obviously you would have heard it off the radio. Now please tell me which radio station plays Emperor. Or television station. Or anything. The only possible way I could have heard Emperor's music is through piracy. And through piracy, I appreciated the music and purchased their albums.

My point is that piracy balances the industry out so that it's more than just the popular bands that get listen to.

GodLovesDead

Howvever, there is one very glaring flaw with your argument. THE INTERNET. It exists now....one can LEGALLY become exposed to every band in existence just about. So that point.....is moot.

[QUOTE="GodLovesDead"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="GodLovesDead"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="GodLovesDead"]

And you think pirates would buy musicIt's not plainly wrong at all. Pop musicians making millions of dollars for writing catchy pop-tunes that took them two days to write is wrong. If piracy wasn't around - all that'd be left is pop music.smokeydabear076

The only music you'd know about was what you heard on the radio, television, and from friends. Chances are you wouldn't be listening to The Cure unless you heard a song from them before purchasing one of their albums.

The Cure is a popular band - obviously you would have heard it off the radio. Now please tell me which radio station plays Emperor. Or television station. Or anything. The only possible way I could have heard Emperor's music is through piracy. And through piracy, I appreciated the music and purchased their albums.

My point is that piracy balances the industry out so that it's more than just the popular bands that get listen to.

I've never heard Emperor on the radio, seen anything about them on television, or heard about them through friends. I'd have had to buy an album from them before hand with clearly no idea if I thought their music was good or not. I don't have enough money to spend that I can just support crap I don't even know what will be good or not. I only want to support the best (albums that I appreciate).

And mp3 samples aren't enough to judge. 30 seconds of some random riff doesn't tell me anything especially when music such as Emperor's is to be judged as a whole and not track-by-track.

I have yet to see any bands fail because of piracy, seriously. Someone downloading their song for free instead of paying 1 dollar for it on Itunes is irrelevant to a band like Muse, or The Killers, or whoever you like.

goodlay

*shrug*

I have yet to see one car dealership close down because a car was stolen off their lot. What difference does it make to the morality of stealing a car?

[QUOTE="goodlay"]

I have yet to see any bands fail because of piracy, seriously. Someone downloading their song for free instead of paying 1 dollar for it on Itunes is irrelevant to a band like Muse, or The Killers, or whoever you like.

LJS9502_basic

I have to get to work in a few hours so I need to get some sleep. Justification=/= right.

And without piracy, your little band The Cure wouldn't even be known since no one would pay 15 dollars for a band they haven't ever heard of. This is ridiculous, you might as well consider watching music videos on youtube piracy, since you can watch it anytime you want.

[QUOTE="goodlay"]

The bands in the music industry seem hardly worried about piracy except old washed up rock stars like Gene Simmons that want to lock up all the kids that participate in piracy.

Last time I checked you aren't in the mainstream music industry, so how would you even know if it really does effect the band?

LJS9502_basic

Exactly how did you check into what I do by the way? You don't know me.

My Rush ticket costed me twice that. Rush actually told the press that piracy helped them sell more tickets and make more money than ever before. Your logic don't make any sense at all.

[QUOTE="goodlay"]

I have yet to see any bands fail because of piracy, seriously. Someone downloading their song for free instead of paying 1 dollar for it on Itunes is irrelevant to a band like Muse, or The Killers, or whoever you like.

pianist

*shrug*

I have yet to see one car dealership close down because a car was stolen off their lot. What difference does it make to the morality of stealing a car?

A car can be worth up to 40,000 dollars, a CD is worth no more than 15 dollars, don't you understand what im getting at? And by stealing a car nothing good happens. With piracy the band gets publicity from users all around the web, that's how I found about some of the modern bands I like, like Muse and such.

And you think music artists deserve more than the millions of dollars they already make?

GodLovesDead

They deserve to make whatever they are paid for the services they provide. So if the public is willing to pay them millions, then yes, they deserve to make millions. I don't agree with what people like, but it's not my place to tell people that they can't make as much money as they're capable of making simply because I don't like what they produce.

That won't stop me from advocating that we tax the hell out of them to pay for societal progress and maintenance, though. :P

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="goodlay"]

I have yet to see any bands fail because of piracy, seriously. Someone downloading their song for free instead of paying 1 dollar for it on Itunes is irrelevant to a band like Muse, or The Killers, or whoever you like.

goodlay

I have to get to work in a few hours so I need to get some sleep. Justification=/= right.

And without piracy, your little band The Cure wouldn't even be known since no one would pay 15 dollars for a band they haven't ever heard of. This is ridiculous, you might as well consider watching music videos on youtube piracy, since you can watch it anytime you want.

[QUOTE="smokeydabear076"][QUOTE="GodLovesDead"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="GodLovesDead"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="GodLovesDead"]

And you think pirates would buy musicIt's not plainly wrong at all. Pop musicians making millions of dollars for writing catchy pop-tunes that took them two days to write is wrong. If piracy wasn't around - all that'd be left is pop music.GodLovesDead

The only music you'd know about was what you heard on the radio, television, and from friends. Chances are you wouldn't be listening to The Cure unless you heard a song from them before purchasing one of their albums.

The Cure is a popular band - obviously you would have heard it off the radio. Now please tell me which radio station plays Emperor. Or television station. Or anything. The only possible way I could have heard Emperor's music is through piracy. And through piracy, I appreciated the music and purchased their albums.

My point is that piracy balances the industry out so that it's more than just the popular bands that get listen to.

I've never heard Emperor on the radio, seen anything about them on television, or heard about them through friends. I'd have had to buy an album from them before hand with clearly no idea if I thought their music was good or not. I don't have enough money to spend that I can just support crap I don't even know what will be good or not. I only want to support the best (albums that I appreciate).

And mp3 samples aren't enough to judge. 30 seconds of some random riff doesn't tell me anything especially when music such as Emperor's is to be judged as a whole and not track-by-track.

[QUOTE="goodlay"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="goodlay"]

I have yet to see any bands fail because of piracy, seriously. Someone downloading their song for free instead of paying 1 dollar for it on Itunes is irrelevant to a band like Muse, or The Killers, or whoever you like.

LJS9502_basic

I have to get to work in a few hours so I need to get some sleep. Justification=/= right.

And without piracy, your little band The Cure wouldn't even be known since no one would pay 15 dollars for a band they haven't ever heard of. This is ridiculous, you might as well consider watching music videos on youtube piracy, since you can watch it anytime you want.

That's like saying an athlete who plays professionally for 20 years is obviously extremely well known by everyone who likes sports.

[QUOTE="GodLovesDead"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="GodLovesDead"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="GodLovesDead"]

And you think pirates would buy musicIt's not plainly wrong at all. Pop musicians making millions of dollars for writing catchy pop-tunes that took them two days to write is wrong. If piracy wasn't around - all that'd be left is pop music.LJS9502_basic

The only music you'd know about was what you heard on the radio, television, and from friends. Chances are you wouldn't be listening to The Cure unless you heard a song from them before purchasing one of their albums.

The Cure is a popular band - obviously you would have heard it off the radio. Now please tell me which radio station plays Emperor. Or television station. Or anything. The only possible way I could have heard Emperor's music is through piracy. And through piracy, I appreciated the music and purchased their albums.

My point is that piracy balances the industry out so that it's more than just the popular bands that get listen to.

[

Who said I'm getting upset? Stop being touchy - it's a simple debate about morality (though it's more of a slaughter than a debate because I'm getting attacked from perspectives that aren't my own).

And apparently you're lost. You said before downloads existed: more than pop music existed. But how would I know that if all I heard was pop music on the radio, television, and from friends? The internet and piracy lets people explore more music and purchase music they really appreciate.

[QUOTE="GodLovesDead"]

And you think music artists deserve more than the millions of dollars they already make?

pianist

They deserve to make whatever they are paid for the services they provide. So if the public is willing to pay them millions, then yes, they deserve to make millions. I don't agree with what people like, but it's not my place to tell people that they can't make as much money as they're capable of making simply because I don't like what they produce.

That won't stop me from advocating that we tax the hell out of them to pay for societal progress and maintenance, though. :P

If turning everyone into drones and slaves for the greater whole is "Societal Progress", i'll go ahead and roll with "Societal Decay". But yes, you are right. That is how capitalism works. I provide a service and expect to be paid for that service. You dont pay, you dont get the service/product, it's that simple. If the price is unfair, you go somewhere else. That's how it works.

[QUOTE="pianist"][QUOTE="goodlay"]

I have yet to see any bands fail because of piracy, seriously. Someone downloading their song for free instead of paying 1 dollar for it on Itunes is irrelevant to a band like Muse, or The Killers, or whoever you like.

goodlay

*shrug*

I have yet to see one car dealership close down because a car was stolen off their lot. What difference does it make to the morality of stealing a car?

A car can be worth up to 40,000 dollars, a CD is worth no more than 15 dollars, don't you understand what im getting at? And by stealing a car nothing good happens. With piracy the band gets publicity from users all around the web, that's how I found about some of the modern bands I like, like Muse and such.

A car isn't worth nearly as much as you'll pay for it. As for CDs, do you think $15 pays the entire cost of producing the music? When you think about mass media, you have to remember that it is much more like purchasing shares of a company than it is like purchasing a unique product. The actual cost of producing even a single album is so exorbitantly high that there are very few people in the whole world who could afford to pay for the entire process themselves, just to have one album of music. So what we do instead is distribute the cost amongst thousands (or in very popular cases, millions) of people. That's the only way that an average person could ever have access to recorded music. So when you don't buy the album, it's not like you're refusing to pay for the whole product. What you ARE refusing to do is pay your fair share of what it cost to produce the product.

As for the good that comes of piracy, I'll just say it again - the artist has the right to decide whether or not to take advantage of the benefits that can come of offering music for free. That's not your decision to make for the artists. It's theirs.

[QUOTE="GodLovesDead"][QUOTE="smokeydabear076"][QUOTE="GodLovesDead"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="GodLovesDead"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="GodLovesDead"]

And you think pirates would buy musicIt's not plainly wrong at all. Pop musicians making millions of dollars for writing catchy pop-tunes that took them two days to write is wrong. If piracy wasn't around - all that'd be left is pop music.smokeydabear076

The only music you'd know about was what you heard on the radio, television, and from friends. Chances are you wouldn't be listening to The Cure unless you heard a song from them before purchasing one of their albums.

The Cure is a popular band - obviously you would have heard it off the radio. Now please tell me which radio station plays Emperor. Or television station. Or anything. The only possible way I could have heard Emperor's music is through piracy. And through piracy, I appreciated the music and purchased their albums.

My point is that piracy balances the industry out so that it's more than just the popular bands that get listen to.

I've never heard Emperor on the radio, seen anything about them on television, or heard about them through friends. I'd have had to buy an album from them before hand with clearly no idea if I thought their music was good or not. I don't have enough money to spend that I can just support crap I don't even know what will be good or not. I only want to support the best (albums that I appreciate).

And mp3 samples aren't enough to judge. 30 seconds of some random riff doesn't tell me anything especially when music such as Emperor's is to be judged as a whole and not track-by-track.

I typed black metal into Youtube, and found their entire In The Nightside Eclipse album after grazing from video to video. Obviously this was illegally uploaded.

That South Park episode on this subject sums up my feelings. Music is an art form, musicians are suppose to do it because they love it not because it makes them millionaires. And it's not like they go through hard times, they still make millions on CD sales, as well as concerts and merchandise.Darth_Tyrev

[QUOTE="smokeydabear076"][QUOTE="GodLovesDead"][QUOTE="smokeydabear076"][QUOTE="GodLovesDead"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="GodLovesDead"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="GodLovesDead"]

And you think pirates would buy musicIt's not plainly wrong at all. Pop musicians making millions of dollars for writing catchy pop-tunes that took them two days to write is wrong. If piracy wasn't around - all that'd be left is pop music.GodLovesDead

The only music you'd know about was what you heard on the radio, television, and from friends. Chances are you wouldn't be listening to The Cure unless you heard a song from them before purchasing one of their albums.

The Cure is a popular band - obviously you would have heard it off the radio. Now please tell me which radio station plays Emperor. Or television station. Or anything. The only possible way I could have heard Emperor's music is through piracy. And through piracy, I appreciated the music and purchased their albums.

My point is that piracy balances the industry out so that it's more than just the popular bands that get listen to.

I've never heard Emperor on the radio, seen anything about them on television, or heard about them through friends. I'd have had to buy an album from them before hand with clearly no idea if I thought their music was good or not. I don't have enough money to spend that I can just support crap I don't even know what will be good or not. I only want to support the best (albums that I appreciate).

And mp3 samples aren't enough to judge. 30 seconds of some random riff doesn't tell me anything especially when music such as Emperor's is to be judged as a whole and not track-by-track.

I typed black metal into Youtube, and found their entire In The Nightside Eclipse album after grazing from video to video. Obviously this was illegally uploaded.

[QUOTE="goodlay"][QUOTE="pianist"][QUOTE="goodlay"]

I have yet to see any bands fail because of piracy, seriously. Someone downloading their song for free instead of paying 1 dollar for it on Itunes is irrelevant to a band like Muse, or The Killers, or whoever you like.

pianist

*shrug*

I have yet to see one car dealership close down because a car was stolen off their lot. What difference does it make to the morality of stealing a car?

A car can be worth up to 40,000 dollars, a CD is worth no more than 15 dollars, don't you understand what im getting at? And by stealing a car nothing good happens. With piracy the band gets publicity from users all around the web, that's how I found about some of the modern bands I like, like Muse and such.

A car isn't worth nearly as much as you'll pay for it. As for CDs, do you think $15 pays the entire cost of producing the music? When you think about mass media, you have to remember that it is much more like purchasing shares of a company than it is like purchasing a unique product. The actual cost of producing even a single album is so exorbitantly high that there are very few people in the whole world who could afford to pay for the entire process themselves, just to have one album of music. So what we do instead is distribute the cost amongst thousands (or in very popular cases, millions) of people. That's the only way that an average person could ever have access to recorded music. So when you don't buy the album, it's not like you're refusing to pay for the product.

What you ARE refusing to do is pay your fair share. And that's why I brought up the car analogy. Losing one car won't kill a dealership, because that one car is just one of many cars, and only a small part of the total worth of the dealership. So you won't kill the dealership by removing one car - but that doesn't make taking the car without permission right.

As for the good that comes of piracy, I'll just say it again - the artist has the right to decide whether or not to take advantage of the benefits that can come of offering music for free. That's not your decision to make for the artists. It's theirs.

Think about all of the people at concerts? Most of them are teenagers, and most of them pirate that bands music, so without piracy, do you really think that band would sell out? And they are paying their share, seeing concert revenue really helps bands.

[QUOTE="Darth_Tyrev"]That South Park episode on this subject sums up my feelings. Music is an art form, musicians are suppose to do it because they love it not because it makes them millionaires. And it's not like they go through hard times, they still make millions on CD sales, as well as concerts and merchandise.hokies1313

The same could be said of whatever you do for a living. And people should be able to decide whether or not they want to pay you for it, even if you work for them.

[QUOTE="Darth_Tyrev"]That South Park episode on this subject sums up my feelings. Music is an art form, musicians are suppose to do it because they love it not because it makes them millionaires. And it's not like they go through hard times, they still make millions on CD sales, as well as concerts and merchandise.hokies1313

That's a pretty socialist view. That's like saying, serve the military because you want to, be a doctor because you want to, dont worry about the money, just spread it equally. Dont make your job about money, make it about doing what you want and contributing. That's a huge socialist view. Should Game Developers, movie makers, and book writers also not expect money simply because they are using their creativity to get the job done?

Think about all of the people at concerts? Most of them are teenagers, and most of them pirate that bands music, so without piracy, do you really think that band would sell out? And they are paying their share, seeing concert revenue really helps bands.

goodlay

Sheesh... how many times am I going to have to write exactly the same thing? It is not anyone's right to share someone else's work without consent. It DOES NOT MATTER if there are any positive side effects to piracy. That doesn't change the fact that the act itself is immoral because it infringes on the right to ownership that an artist has over his or her property. And if artists realize the benefit of providing free samples of their music THEY can and will make the decision to do so. If they do not wish to do so, no one can tell them otherwise, especially not by actively snubbing their wishes. And please do bear in mind that some artists hate performing and prefer to record. They shouldn't be forced to perform to earn their keep when they could very well make a good living as recording artists, provided they see all the profits to which they are entitled given their fan bases.

I dearly hope no one else will bring up this same point. I'm getting so sick of refuting it over and over again.

[QUOTE="hokies1313"][QUOTE="Darth_Tyrev"]That South Park episode on this subject sums up my feelings. Music is an art form, musicians are suppose to do it because they love it not because it makes them millionaires. And it's not like they go through hard times, they still make millions on CD sales, as well as concerts and merchandise.Tolwan

That's a pretty socialist view. That's like saying, serve the military because you want to, be a doctor because you want to, dont worry about the money, just spread it equally. Dont make your job about money, make it about doing what you want and contributing. That's a huge socialist view. Should Game Developers, movie makers, and book writers also not expect money simply because they are using their creativity to get the job done?

[QUOTE="pianist"][QUOTE="GodLovesDead"]

And you think music artists deserve more than the millions of dollars they already make?

Tolwan

They deserve to make whatever they are paid for the services they provide. So if the public is willing to pay them millions, then yes, they deserve to make millions. I don't agree with what people like, but it's not my place to tell people that they can't make as much money as they're capable of making simply because I don't like what they produce.

That won't stop me from advocating that we tax the hell out of them to pay for societal progress and maintenance, though. :P

If turning everyone into drones and slaves for the greater whole is "Societal Progress", i'll go ahead and roll with "Societal Decay". But yes, you are right. That is how capitalism works. I provide a service and expect to be paid for that service. You dont pay, you dont get the service/product, it's that simple. If the price is unfair, you go somewhere else. That's how it works.

Exactly. But now that we actually have a choice: we can easily see who made genuine music with meaning, and who made crap music with the pure intention of image, money, celebrity, etc.

I have to go, but I hope people can see where I'm coming from. I don't think all music should be free. Musicians should be paid if they want to be. They will be. But I think the music industry is just about perfect how it is with piracy included. Artists get paid, and people can listen to free music if they want to. I think piracy is *GOOD* because it helps non-mainstream bands get more recognition and lets deep music that isn't likeable from the first listen to be wide-spread and appreciated how it should.

Piracy forces music artists to try to make deep and meaningful music, instead of shallow songs with hooks and all that crap that would be totally abundant otherwise.

It's not hard to see how piracy has just as many upsides as it has downsides. It doesn't harm anyone. Piracy isn't as simple as "stealing something" - as many of you make it out t be.

[QUOTE="Tolwan"]

[QUOTE="hokies1313"][QUOTE="Darth_Tyrev"]That South Park episode on this subject sums up my feelings. Music is an art form, musicians are suppose to do it because they love it not because it makes them millionaires. And it's not like they go through hard times, they still make millions on CD sales, as well as concerts and merchandise.smokeydabear076

That's a pretty socialist view. That's like saying, serve the military because you want to, be a doctor because you want to, dont worry about the money, just spread it equally. Dont make your job about money, make it about doing what you want and contributing. That's a huge socialist view. Should Game Developers, movie makers, and book writers also not expect money simply because they are using their creativity to get the job done?

Wow, did you miss the context of my post entirely? The guy above me is saying that people who make music shouldnt do it for money but for their own enjoyment, and i'm saying that's rediculous and would be like expecting everyone else to not expect money either.

[QUOTE="goodlay"]

Think about all of the people at concerts? Most of them are teenagers, and most of them pirate that bands music, so without piracy, do you really think that band would sell out? And they are paying their share, seeing concert revenue really helps bands.

pianist

Sheesh... how many times am I going to have to write exactly the same thing? It is not anyone's right to share someone else's work without consent. It DOES NOT MATTER if there are any positive side effects to piracy. That doesn't change the fact that the act itself is immoral because it infringes on the right to ownership that an artist has over his or her property. And if artists realize the benefit of providing free samples of their music THEY can and will make the decision to do so. If they do not wish to do so, no one can tell them otherwise, especially not by actively snubbing their wishes. And please do bear in mind that some artists hate performing and prefer to record. They shouldn't be forced to perform to earn their keep when they could very well make a good living as recording artists, provided they see all the profits to which they are entitled given their fan bases.

I dearly hope no one else will bring up this same point. I'm getting so sick of refuting it over and over again.

Im done here, people will keep their same perspective regardless, and i've told mine to an overdone extent, as have you.

It's sad that doing drugs such as marijuana, and drinking alcohal aren't immoral, while stealing a 1 dollar song is. Another reason why religion makes no sense I guess.