Question to those who demand proof of God before believing

maybe if god came down from the heavens and smited some people and said "do you believe in my now?" i would believe in him.

maybe if god came down from the heavens and smited some people and said "do you believe in my now?" i would believe in him.

needled24-7

Well I'm sure an all powerful god could come up with a way to prove his existence instead of playing this faith game which is going to send billions of people to hell... LinuxGoose

Anything, really. There have been plenty of modern accounts of miracles, yet each and every one of them has failed under scientific scrutiny. I believe in what can be observed and explained, so if god can ever be observed and explained then that will be sufficient proof for me.

Why should I believe in him? I don't believe in god for the same reason I don't believe that crab people are in control of the Australian government

Anything, really. There have been plenty of modern accounts of miracles, yet each and every one of them has failed under scientific scrutiny. I believe in what can be observed and explained, so if god can ever be observed and explained then that will be sufficient proof for me.

theone86

Why should I believe in him? I don't believe in god for the same reason I don't believe that crab people are in control of the Australian government

toast_burner

[QUOTE="LinuxGoose"]Well I'm sure an all powerful god could come up with a way to prove his existence instead of playing this faith game which is going to send billions of people to hell... NuclearNerd

[QUOTE="theone86"]

Anything, really. There have been plenty of modern accounts of miracles, yet each and every one of them has failed under scientific scrutiny. I believe in what can be observed and explained, so if god can ever be observed and explained then that will be sufficient proof for me.

NuclearNerd

Non-living material "bleeding," sicknesses healing "miraculously," and plenty of others. A good number of people claim each year to have witnessed miracles, but whenever they're investigated by scientists they find that they're either hoaxes (bleeding) or that there are scientific answers for them that were simply ignored by people who wanted to believe they were miracles (sicknesses).

How can "believers" be so credulous? Isn't the point of religion to discover the truths for oneself rather than just make an intellectual assent to the truth without understanding why? foxhound_fox

Ummmm...no?

[QUOTE="LinuxGoose"]Well I'm sure an all powerful god could come up with a way to prove his existence instead of playing this faith game which is going to send billions of people to hell... NuclearNerd

why do humans have to have their beliefes based on faith? why can't got provide proof of his existence? it would make a lot more sense that way. then his "children" that he "loves" wouldn't have to go to hell. except for the ones that would defy him anyways.

I belive in God but that's down to faith just like atheists have faith that God doesn't exist. Both positions require faith as they are both claims without proof. You can't prove God exists and you can't prove God doesn't either, trying to convince someone of your position takes faith. The only people who truly don't have faith in God or no God are Agnostics.

[QUOTE="NuclearNerd"][QUOTE="theone86"]

Anything, really. There have been plenty of modern accounts of miracles, yet each and every one of them has failed under scientific scrutiny. I believe in what can be observed and explained, so if god can ever be observed and explained then that will be sufficient proof for me.

theone86

Non-living material "bleeding," sicknesses healing "miraculously," and plenty of others. A good number of people claim each year to have witnessed miracles, but whenever they're investigated by scientists they find that they're either hoaxes (bleeding) or that there are scientific answers for them that were simply ignored by people who wanted to believe they were miracles (sicknesses).

I'll never understand why religious people feel that their faith needs to be proven. That kinda negates the whole point of faith.

Didn't they have some big end of the world / judgement day thing planned? I guess that would convince me.

I don't know, pretty much any large-scale supernatural phenomenon, provided it wasn't just aliens screwing with us again.

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="NuclearNerd"] Now THIS one is interesting. Which miracles are you referring to? How have they failed?majoras_wrath

Non-living material "bleeding," sicknesses healing "miraculously," and plenty of others. A good number of people claim each year to have witnessed miracles, but whenever they're investigated by scientists they find that they're either hoaxes (bleeding) or that there are scientific answers for them that were simply ignored by people who wanted to believe they were miracles (sicknesses).

I'm just saying that whenever people say that there's proof for the supernatural it doesn't stand up to scrutiny, any proof would have to be able to withstand scrutiny.

[QUOTE="theone86"]

Non-living material "bleeding," sicknesses healing "miraculously," and plenty of others. A good number of people claim each year to have witnessed miracles, but whenever they're investigated by scientists they find that they're either hoaxes (bleeding) or that there are scientific answers for them that were simply ignored by people who wanted to believe they were miracles (sicknesses).

majoras_wrath

I saw things before they happened. It made me believe that either I have already lived this life or something higher chose to show me those things. I was an athiest untill the dreams strarted. SO now I am an agnostic/believerKcube

That could very well be your brain playing tricks on you. We tend to generalize meories into ones that are very similar, in addition to forgetting the details of memories. When you are experiencing a situation that is very similar to another memory (setting, people, etc.), then your brain recalls the earlier memory without details. Your brain can play powerful tricks on you. I just saw a film in class today where people were made to believe that they had ridden in a hot air balloon when they really hadn't, and they actually had memories of the event. There was another instance where someone convinced Alan Alda that he had a particularly bad bout of food poisoning from eggs (he hadn't) and caused him to subconsciously avoid eating eggs at a lunch.

I belive in God but that's down to faith just like atheists have faith that God doesn't exist. Both positions require faith as they are both claims without proof. You can't prove God exists and you can't prove God doesn't either, trying to convince someone of your position takes faith. The only people who truly don't have faith in God or no God are Agnostics.

ShadowMoses900

You don't have to have faith that god doesn't exist. I don't have faith that when I wake up tomorrow oxygen will not be poisonous to me, I know it to be true.

[QUOTE="majoras_wrath"][QUOTE="theone86"]

Non-living material "bleeding," sicknesses healing "miraculously," and plenty of others. A good number of people claim each year to have witnessed miracles, but whenever they're investigated by scientists they find that they're either hoaxes (bleeding) or that there are scientific answers for them that were simply ignored by people who wanted to believe they were miracles (sicknesses).

theone86

I'm just saying that whenever people say that there's proof for the supernatural it doesn't stand up to scrutiny, any proof would have to be able to withstand scrutiny.

maybe if god came down from the heavens and smited some people and said "do you believe in my now?" i would believe in him.

needled24-7

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="majoras_wrath"] Isn't that more a people problem and not necessarily a "god" problem?majoras_wrath

I'm just saying that whenever people say that there's proof for the supernatural it doesn't stand up to scrutiny, any proof would have to be able to withstand scrutiny.

Not my point. My point simply is that there are plenty of examples of metaphysical "proof" that do not stand up to scrutiny, and that any proof of god or gods coming from any religion, or none of them for that matter, would have to withstand scrutiny. My point is that it's fairly easy to manufacture an event that seems fantastical, and that I'm not just going to fall for any such event without scientific verification.

I'm an atheist but I was raised as a Christan. It's not really the fact that we can't prove that god exists that makes me an atheist. We also can't prove that god doesn't exist either so I find it funny when other atheists pull that card. So I don't demand any proof of god.

I'm an atheist because religion in general sounds like a fairy tale to me. A fairy tale that many of us are raised to believe and we end up not knowing anything else. When it comes to Christianity I'm not very keen on following a 2000 year old book that has most likely been altered a LOT from the original texts by the Romans and what not. We live in such a little fragment of humanity, how do you KNOW the bible is true and so is you're god?

[QUOTE="LinuxGoose"]Well I'm sure an all powerful god could come up with a way to prove his existence instead of playing this faith game which is going to send billions of people to hell... NuclearNerd

He didn't avoid the question, you already said if someone just killed people and said "Do you believe in me now" could easily be a hoax. If God made everything like you believe, then he can easily do something that will make us all believe.

[QUOTE="majoras_wrath"][QUOTE="theone86"]

I'm just saying that whenever people say that there's proof for the supernatural it doesn't stand up to scrutiny, any proof would have to be able to withstand scrutiny.

theone86

Not my point. My point simply is that there are plenty of examples of metaphysical "proof" that do not stand up to scrutiny, and that any proof of god or gods coming from any religion, or none of them for that matter, would have to withstand scrutiny. My point is that it's fairly easy to manufacture an event that seems fantastical, and that I'm not just going to fall for any such event without scientific verification.

I belive in God but that's down to faith just like atheists have faith that God doesn't exist. Both positions require faith as they are both claims without proof. You can't prove God exists and you can't prove God doesn't either, trying to convince someone of your position takes faith. The only people who truly don't have faith in God or no God are Agnostics.

ShadowMoses900

Faith is not required to disbelieve in something that has no proof. Do you have faith that the Easter Bunny doesn't exist?

It is avoiding the question.NuclearNerd

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="majoras_wrath"] I'm definitely playing devils advocate here, but who says that the Abrahamic religions (or any other religion really) has it right? Just because they are wrong doesn't "disprove" the notion of a greater power. And to be completely clear, I am an agnostic atheist, but this makes for interesting conversation.majoras_wrath

Not my point. My point simply is that there are plenty of examples of metaphysical "proof" that do not stand up to scrutiny, and that any proof of god or gods coming from any religion, or none of them for that matter, would have to withstand scrutiny. My point is that it's fairly easy to manufacture an event that seems fantastical, and that I'm not just going to fall for any such event without scientific verification.

That's how some people see it, seems reasonable to me. Personally, though, I just define metaphysical as that which is beyond our understanding. It's not that it can never become part of our understanding, just that it exists outside it as of now. Moons were once metaphysical objects, now they're within our realm of understanding. If god exists then I believe it's reasonable to expect that he can be understood within our existence, especially if he expects us to believe in him. Even if that's not so, if god can never be experienced, then what's the point of this thread? There will never be proof, so how could we demand proof.

[QUOTE="majoras_wrath"][QUOTE="theone86"]

Not my point. My point simply is that there are plenty of examples of metaphysical "proof" that do not stand up to scrutiny, and that any proof of god or gods coming from any religion, or none of them for that matter, would have to withstand scrutiny. My point is that it's fairly easy to manufacture an event that seems fantastical, and that I'm not just going to fall for any such event without scientific verification.

theone86

That's how some people see it, seems reasonable to me. Personally, though, I just define metaphysical as that which is beyond our understanding. It's not that it can never become part of our understanding, just that it exists outside it as of now. Moons were once metaphysical objects, now they're within our realm of understanding. If god exists then I believe it's reasonable to expect that he can be understood within our existence, especially if he expects us to believe in him. Even if that's not so, if god can never be experienced, then what's the point of this thread? There will never be proof, so how could we demand proof.

I agree, I don't think anyone ever demands proof of religion. Proof and religion don't tend to mix very well... People just use the "You can't prove it" card as a counter argument.

Well I'm sure an all powerful god could come up with a way to prove his existence instead of playing this faith game which is going to send billions of people to hell... LinuxGoose

I believe in something, just by how weird life is and I think to myself that..this all couldn't have happened randomly, there has to be some guiding force...I think anyways...

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="majoras_wrath"] But would proof could possibly convince skeptics? That's what I've always been stuck on. god by definition exists outside of our realm of understanding, so how could we possibly fit it into our current system of scientific method? This of course leads me personally to "Well, if we can't know then and it doesn't fit into our scientific knowledge then who cares?" but it is still is a intriguing question.Pikdum

That's how some people see it, seems reasonable to me. Personally, though, I just define metaphysical as that which is beyond our understanding. It's not that it can never become part of our understanding, just that it exists outside it as of now. Moons were once metaphysical objects, now they're within our realm of understanding. If god exists then I believe it's reasonable to expect that he can be understood within our existence, especially if he expects us to believe in him. Even if that's not so, if god can never be experienced, then what's the point of this thread? There will never be proof, so how could we demand proof.

I agree, I don't think anyone ever demands proof of religion. Proof and religion don't tend to mix very well... People just use the "You can't prove it" card as a counter argument.

Well, I demand proof, but that's because my belief system is based upon proof. I have no problem with people who don't demand proof, so long as they acknowledge their belief system is based upon fait.

What I mean to say is that I don't demand of people of faith that they stop believing because they lack proof, I simply don't believe because I lack proof.

[QUOTE="LinuxGoose"]Well I'm sure an all powerful god could come up with a way to prove his existence instead of playing this faith game which is going to send billions of people to hell... cee1gee

First: prove Jesus existed. Second: prove that he was God incarnate, or the son of God or what have you.

I don't even...

What is this?

[QUOTE="LinuxGoose"]Well I'm sure an all powerful god could come up with a way to prove his existence instead of playing this faith game which is going to send billions of people to hell... cee1gee

How do you know Jesus ever existed in the first place?

[QUOTE="cee1gee"][QUOTE="LinuxGoose"]Well I'm sure an all powerful god could come up with a way to prove his existence instead of playing this faith game which is going to send billions of people to hell... Pikdum

How do you know Jesus ever existed in the first place?

[QUOTE="Pikdum"]

[QUOTE="cee1gee"] i thought Jesus was the proof of his existence?cee1gee

How do you know Jesus ever existed in the first place?

What?

[QUOTE="Pikdum"]

[QUOTE="cee1gee"] i thought Jesus was the proof of his existence?cee1gee

How do you know Jesus ever existed in the first place?

[QUOTE="cee1gee"][QUOTE="Pikdum"]

How do you know Jesus ever existed in the first place?

Nibroc420

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="cee1gee"] scientistscee1gee

Well for starters one who's working in an actual field of science.

[QUOTE="cee1gee"]

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"] No (real) scientists have ever claimed such a thing.worlock77

Well for starters one who's working in an actual field of science.