Question to those who demand proof of God before believing

This reminds me of statistics. why are people so confortable about the existence of random? Nothing is random. A coin toss can be perfectly predicted by the way it is tossed. so a persons life can be perfectly predicted by the past actions the individual made.playmynutz

Uhh,

no it can't.

This reminds me of statistics. why are people so confortable about the existence of random? Nothing is random. A coin toss can be perfectly predicted by the way it is tossed. so a persons life can be perfectly predicted by the past actions the individual made.playmynutz

Yes, when you get that prediction system down then get back to me.

[QUOTE="alexside1"]

[QUOTE="theone86"]

Also, one final footnote, I have heard a lot of very smart people discuss the contradiction between divine plans and free will, I have yet to see any of them rememdy such a contradiction. If someone knows everything that will happen in my life and has even planned all the eents in my life, then I have no control over my life.

theone86

It's an contradiction that is based on the assumption that free-will is random and unpredictable. I havn't seen anyone prove that.

I'm sitting here at my desk thinking of doing something. There are different factors influencing my decision, some in favor and some not. A few minutes from now I will decide between one of two options. Yes, there are factors influencing me, but I am still making a conscious choice. Now, if there is a god and he has planned my entire life out, then I am not going to make a conscious choice. I will think I am making a conscious choice, but in reality that choice has been made for me long before I was even born. I think there's a debate as to how free free will actually is, but I don't know how you make the argument that having god plan your life for you allows for as much choice as a deity-free life does.

Need clarification, predetermined by who? All knowing and all powerful doesn't mean He/She/It is involved in it. So, who are you going to blame on predetermined future?

magicalclick

If God knows everything that you will do then your life has been predetermined (by who doesn't matter). If it's predetermined then your role has been written for you. If it has been written then you do not have free will, you are simply acting out a part.

If you want evidence, it can be man made or alien made or a man made from the future. Evidence will never proof enough when you lack faith in your heart. magicalclick

"Evidence" isn't always evidence. People used to think a solar eclipse was a sign from the gods, now we have the scientific capability to explain eclipses. Just because there is "evidence" doesn't mean there is evidence.

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="alexside1"]

It's an contradiction that is based on the assumption that free-will is random and unpredictable. I havn't seen anyone prove that.

alexside1

I'm sitting here at my desk thinking of doing something. There are different factors influencing my decision, some in favor and some not. A few minutes from now I will decide between one of two options. Yes, there are factors influencing me, but I am still making a conscious choice. Now, if there is a god and he has planned my entire life out, then I am not going to make a conscious choice. I will think I am making a conscious choice, but in reality that choice has been made for me long before I was even born. I think there's a debate as to how free free will actually is, but I don't know how you make the argument that having god plan your life for you allows for as much choice as a deity-free life does.

I did address what you said.

[QUOTE="playmynutz"]This reminds me of statistics. why are people so confortable about the existence of random? Nothing is random. A coin toss can be perfectly predicted by the way it is tossed. so a persons life can be perfectly predicted by the past actions the individual made.Nibroc420

Uhh,

no it can't.

When a kid has a invisible friend that can perform miracles he i mentally ill.

When multiple grownups have a invicible friend who can perform miracles its a religion.

[QUOTE="magicalclick"]If you want evidence, it can be man made or alien made or a man made from the future. Evidence will never proof enough when you lack faith in your heart. theone86

"Evidence" isn't always evidence. People used to think a solar eclipse was a sign from the gods, now we have the scientific capability to explain eclipses. Just because there is "evidence" doesn't mean there is evidence.

[QUOTE="alexside1"][QUOTE="theone86"]

I'm sitting here at my desk thinking of doing something. There are different factors influencing my decision, some in favor and some not. A few minutes from now I will decide between one of two options. Yes, there are factors influencing me, but I am still making a conscious choice. Now, if there is a god and he has planned my entire life out, then I am not going to make a conscious choice. I will think I am making a conscious choice, but in reality that choice has been made for me long before I was even born. I think there's a debate as to how free free will actually is, but I don't know how you make the argument that having god plan your life for you allows for as much choice as a deity-free life does.

theone86

I did address what you said.

[QUOTE="playmynutz"]This reminds me of statistics. why are people so confortable about the existence of random? Nothing is random. A coin toss can be perfectly predicted by the way it is tossed. so a persons life can be perfectly predicted by the past actions the individual made.theone86

Yes, when you get that prediction system down then get back to me.

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"]

[QUOTE="playmynutz"]This reminds me of statistics. why are people so confortable about the existence of random? Nothing is random. A coin toss can be perfectly predicted by the way it is tossed. so a persons life can be perfectly predicted by the past actions the individual made.alexside1

Uhh,

no it can't.

When a kid has a invisible friend that can perform miracles he i mentally ill.

When multiple grownups have a invicible friend who can perform miracles its a religion.

BlackHawk340

Hasty generalization much?

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="playmynutz"]This reminds me of statistics. why are people so confortable about the existence of random? Nothing is random. A coin toss can be perfectly predicted by the way it is tossed. so a persons life can be perfectly predicted by the past actions the individual made.magicalclick

Yes, when you get that prediction system down then get back to me.

But nobody has an infinite amount of resources, so no, it can't be done.

Simply do a BFS can you can predict everything, assuming you have infinit amount of data that represent the current state of the world, and infinit amount of memory and processing power to store and process that data. Yes, it can be done. We can compute all possible outcomes if you have infinite amount of resources.magicalclick

[QUOTE="BlackHawk340"]

When a kid has a invisible friend that can perform miracles he i mentally ill.

When multiple grownups have a invicible friend who can perform miracles its a religion.

alexside1

Hasty generalization much?

[QUOTE="alexside1"][QUOTE="Nibroc420"]

Uhh,

no it can't.

Nibroc420

[QUOTE="worlock77"]

[QUOTE="magicalclick"]Need clarification, predetermined by who? All knowing and all powerful doesn't mean He/She/It is involved in it. So, who are you going to blame on predetermined future?

magicalclick

If God knows everything that you will do then your life has been predetermined (by who doesn't matter). If it's predetermined then your role has been written for you. If it has been written then you do not have free will, you are simply acting out a part.

That also assume the God you believed in, is powerless to grand you free will.

No, it only assumes that he does not.

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="playmynutz"]This reminds me of statistics. why are people so confortable about the existence of random? Nothing is random. A coin toss can be perfectly predicted by the way it is tossed. so a persons life can be perfectly predicted by the past actions the individual made.magicalclick

Yes, when you get that prediction system down then get back to me.

No you can't. I'm familiar with human psychology, I'm familiar with cognition and learning and conditioning and all that good stuff, and I do agree there is much that can be understood scientifically, but you cannot predict a person's life. You can make general predictions, you cannot predict all of their choices. If there is one thing that psychology always seems to hit upon no matter how scientific it gets, it's that every individual is unique in some way and that the experiences of every individual are extremely varied. There is simply no way to truly predict human behavior accurately to the degree you're talking about.

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="alexside1"] Yes, you can.alexside1

Good logic. With a coin you have a 50/50 chance of being right. That way on that 50% of the time you correctly guess it you can say "see? Told you so".

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="alexside1"] Are you going to address the assumption that I pointed out, or you're just going on with your rambling post that doesn't address on what I said?alexside1

I did address what you said.

I don't believe I said free will had to be random and unpredicatable, I believe that's soemthing you said. Actions are predictable to an extent, but to a limited extent, and there is still choice involved. What I am saying is that if there is someone who has planned my entire life for me, then there is no choice involved, I don't see you countering that.

Need clarification, predetermined by who? All knowing and all powerful doesn't mean He/She/It is involved in it. So, who are you going to blame on predetermined future?magicalclick

have any of you just sat and thought, and tried to trace where your thoughts were coming from? "why did I think that? why did I think about thinking about that? why am I asking this?" and it goes on further and further and I think you get the idea.

it's not as dramatic as moral and ethical questions, but it shows that we aren't in full control of our thoughts.

Why all this talk about "God." Why not Thor or Zeus? They are just as credible, if not more and had just as many followers. Clydefrog92

Why all this talk about "God." Why not Thor or Zeus? They are just as credible, if not more and had just as many followers. Clydefrog92

That would be Odin and not Thor :D

[QUOTE="alexside1"]

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"] Alright, i'll flip a coin 100 times. Let me know the outcome before i start and i'll let you know if you're right.worlock77

Good logic. With a coin you have a 50/50 chance of being right. That way on that 50% of the time you correctly guess it you can say "see? Told you so".

I said "can" not "always" strawman.alexside1

A coin toss can be perfectly predicted by the way it is tossed.playmynutz

I said: No, you can't.

Yes, you can.alexside1

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="alexside1"]

Hasty generalization much?

alexside1

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="magicalclick"] Simply do a BFS can you can predict everything, assuming you have infinit amount of data that represent the current state of the world, and infinit amount of memory and processing power to store and process that data. Yes, it can be done. We can compute all possible outcomes if you have infinite amount of resources.magicalclick

No you can't. I'm familiar with human psychology, I'm familiar with cognition and learning and conditioning and all that good stuff, and I do agree there is much that can be understood scientifically, but you cannot predict a person's life. You can make general predictions, you cannot predict all of their choices. If there is one thing that psychology always seems to hit upon no matter how scientific it gets, it's that every individual is unique in some way and that the experiences of every individual are extremely varied. There is simply no way to truly predict human behavior accurately to the degree you're talking about.

No, you can't, you can only predict the possible conceivable outcomes. Even then, you're talking about simply compiling an enourmous mountain of data and then saying that the right answer is in there somewhere. That's like me saying in a fifty-ball lottery that the winning numbers are going to come from a the group of numbers 1-49. That's not really predicting human behavior, that's compiling possible outcomes.

have any of you just sat and thought, and tried to trace where your thoughts were coming from? "why did I think that? why did I think about thinking about that? why am I asking this?" and it goes on further and further and I think you get the idea.

it's not as dramatic as moral and ethical questions, but it shows that we aren't in full control of our thoughts.

Mordred19

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="alexside1"]

Hasty generalization much?

alexside1

have any of you just sat and thought, and tried to trace where your thoughts were coming from? "why did I think that? why did I think about thinking about that? why am I asking this?" and it goes on further and further and I think you get the idea.

it's not as dramatic as moral and ethical questions, but it shows that we aren't in full control of our thoughts.

Mordred19

I don't believe anybody said we were, ooohh-oooh-ooh, strawman! I think this means I get to punch someone in the shoulder.

[QUOTE="Crunchy_Nuts"][QUOTE="magicalclick"]Need clarification, predetermined by who? All knowing and all powerful doesn't mean He/She/It is involved in it. So, who are you going to blame on predetermined future?magicalclick

red = assumptions.

Why do religious people always try to force people into believeing with shabby arguments of "just have faith" etc.

Believe in the flying spagetti monster, just have faith, he created the entire universe in 6 days, here is our big book written in old times passed telling what miracles he has performed for us because he loves us.
The flying spaggeti monster loves you very much and he will help you if you believe.

The Flying spagetti mosnter created all mankind out of love, and you cant prove he didnt so start believing.

[QUOTE="alexside1"][QUOTE="Nibroc420"] Hardly. A child who believes in his invisible friend has as much reason to believe in said friend as any religious person out there. In the end, there's no proof to support the existence of any god. There are, however, people who will ASSUME "god did it" when they're unable to explain it through logical means.Crunchy_Nuts

is it that hard to believe their may be a higher power more inteligent than human?playmynutz

the whole coin toss thing is based on the belief randomness exists. what if you build a coin flipping device that percisly flips it at the right angle to land heads every time? the problem with a regular coin toss is that the force put in the flip, the height the coin was toss, all kinds of factors that are overlooked. psychology doesn't prevent people from being predictable. if anything psychology is a tool to prove people are predictable. its possible to predict my neighbor will pick up his newspaper with his right hand at 5am with the assumption i know his left arm is injured usually he wakes up at 6 but he didnt get any sleep, the coffee was ready so he wanted to read the newspaper, his brain is producing so and so chemical making him think x, i can go on but i don't know every factor effecting the neighbor to pick up the newspaper. an all knowing god would look at all the factors to predict a future. and whats up with the fabric of time. isnt it possible our future is jus in distant space? some of yall wont even acknowledge the question if god exists because of your ego. is it that hard to believe their may be a higher power more inteligent than human?playmynutz

If god is simply all-knowing that's one thing, but that's not what we're discussing, we're discussing if he has actively laid out a plan for our entire existence do we have free will, and the answer is simply no.

I don't think I've seen anyone dismiss the possibility that god exists, but acknowledging the possibility is not the same thing as acknowledging that it's illogical. There is no proof, ergo logically there is no god, simple as that.

[QUOTE="Crunchy_Nuts"]

[QUOTE="alexside1"] Do you seriously have reading problems? He's basically saying that grownups are mentally ill if they have a religion. He basing all of that over one child. How's that NOT hasty generalization?alexside1

Dont void his argument cause one of my earlier posts.

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="magicalclick"] Let me be simple. BFS is predict all possible outcome. Thus, yes, it can be predicted. We just don't know which one will happen in the end, but, we can predict all possible outcome never the less.magicalclick

No, you can't, you can only predict the possible conceivable outcomes. Even then, you're talking about simply compiling an enourmous mountain of data and then saying that the right answer is in there somewhere. That's like me saying in a fifty-ball lottery that the winning numbers are going to come from a the group of numbers 1-49. That's not really predicting human behavior, that's compiling possible outcomes.

well, I didn't know "the prediction system" is specific to human behavior only. I kinda interpreted the prediction system differently.

You said you can predict everythig a person will do in their life, I said you can't, that is how this whole discussion began.