Racist bake sale, Pay by race. - CNN

im currently living in New Zealand and am doing a Bachelor of Nursing. im american, but yea that maori situation IMO is incredibly racist. don't they also get paid for just doing nothing? pygmahia5

Yes, in fact they are...there's a finite amount of financial aid to go around...

SpartanMSU

EXACTLY.

Imagine a small scale version of this issue involving only two people. Imagine it's a couple with identical academic qualifications. The husband gets x amount of money in financial aid, and the wife gets twice as much because she's a minority. Assuming that the amount given can't increase (after all, there's a finite amount of financial aid to go around), then you can only keep that amount of financial aid constant by taking from one person and giving to someone else.

Here's the thing...even if we establish that my wife is getting too much money in financial aid, that doesn't mean that I should get the difference.

You have to love the democrat students completely missing the point, and twisting the republican students argument against them.

Hhaha wow...The whole time, I read that as "Bike Sale" and thought that was very cheap for any race.suicidalpoptrt

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]Ah, I knew you would go down this route of thinking. You have got to understand that my response was constructed within the simplistic model of the couple and the benefactors in exclusion of any other extraneous factors. However, now that you are introducing more concepts and ideas into the model then I have to make a different response pertaining to the 'new model' presented. I think that, if it is not economically feasible to simply increase the pay of everyone, then rather than have a situation of affirmative action, the pay of minorities should be reduced to allow an increase in pay that is equal for all parties. It may seem spiteful, but it is the error of the institution that introduced the discriminatory policy, and the new governing body would just be rectifying this issue. If a robber steals a toy from another kid and gives it to his child, then surely the toy should still be taken from that child and given to its original owner?MrGeezer

Here's the thing though...do those other people actually deserve an increase in money?

I mean, really...what is the problem? Is the problem that I'm getting less money than some other minority with equal credentials? Or is the problem simply that I'm not getting paid what I deserve?

Here's the difference. If I'm not simply getting the money that I deserve, then it WOULD be fair to take some money from someone who is getting more than he deserves and give it to me. However, on what basis am I entitled to say that I deserve more money? Maybe the minority IS getting too much aid, but that sure as hell doesn't mean that I actually deserve more aid. Take away money from the minority's financial and...why exactly should I assume that one single penny of that money should then go to me?

So, like I've said before, this hasn't got anything to do with how much money one party intrinsically does or does not deserve. This is about what one party or minority recieves relative to another group of people. Now the reason I feel that this is wrong, is of course because it generates resentments between different ethnic groups, and is inherently divisive and also disrupts social cohesion between the races.

EDIT: So you're right, if we take what we considered 'excessive aid' away from one ethnic group, that does not mean that other groups should recieve that money in return. However, It only matters that people with the same qualifiactions and background recieves the same aid regardless of race.

Here's the thing though...do those other people actually deserve an increase in money?

I mean, really...what is the problem? Is the problem that I'm getting less money than some other minority with equal credentials? Or is the problem simply that I'm not getting paid what I deserve?

Here's the difference. If I'm not simply getting the money that I deserve, then it WOULD be fair to take some money from someone who is getting more than he deserves and give it to me. However, on what basis am I entitled to say that I deserve more money? Maybe the minority IS getting too much aid, but that sure as hell doesn't mean that I actually deserve more aid. Take away money from the minority's financial and...why exactly should I assume that one single penny of that money should then go to me?

MrGeezer

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]Ah, I knew you would go down this route of thinking. You have got to understand that my response was constructed within the simplistic model of the couple and the benefactors in exclusion of any other extraneous factors. However, now that you are introducing more concepts and ideas into the model then I have to make a different response pertaining to the 'new model' presented. I think that, if it is not economically feasible to simply increase the pay of everyone, then rather than have a situation of affirmative action, the pay of minorities should be reduced to allow an increase in pay that is equal for all parties. It may seem spiteful, but it is the error of the institution that introduced the discriminatory policy, and the new governing body would just be rectifying this issue. If a robber steals a toy from another kid and gives it to his child, then surely the toy should still be taken from that child and given to its original owner?MetalGear_Ninty

Here's the thing though...do those other people actually deserve an increase in money?

I mean, really...what is the problem? Is the problem that I'm getting less money than some other minority with equal credentials? Or is the problem simply that I'm not getting paid what I deserve?

Here's the difference. If I'm not simply getting the money that I deserve, then it WOULD be fair to take some money from someone who is getting more than he deserves and give it to me. However, on what basis am I entitled to say that I deserve more money? Maybe the minority IS getting too much aid, but that sure as hell doesn't mean that I actually deserve more aid. Take away money from the minority's financial and...why exactly should I assume that one single penny of that money should then go to me?

So, like I've said before, this hasn't got anything to do with how much money one party intrinsically does or does not deserve. This is about what one party or minority recieves relative to another group of people. Now the reason I feel that this is wrong, is of course because it generates resentments between different ethnic groups, and is inherently divisive and also disrupts social cohesion between the races.

EDIT: So you're right, if we take what we considered 'excessive aid' away from one ethnic group, that does not mean that other groups should recieve that money in return. However, It only matters that people with the same qualifiactions and background recieves the same aid regardless of race.

EDIT: So you're right, if we take what we considered 'excessive aid' away from one ethnic group, that does not mean that other groups should recieve that money in return. However, It only matters that people with the same qualifiactions and background recieves the same aid regardless of race.

MetalGear_Ninty

And see, that's the thing. Regardless of if it's "fair" or not, what's the point in me wanting someone else to lose what they've got just so that they've got the same as me? If it's not gonna benefit me either way, then why would I want someone else to lose their privileges just so I can say that me and them are equal?

sorry but taking an observation and changing it into a ****battle between husband and wife is not right in any meaning of the word. taking a racist construct and twisting it into individual entitlement is not right, in no way is MrGeezer right here, he has done nothing but played the hate game for hates sake in order to get away from the actual point of the story.

surrealnumber5

And over the last 20 or so posts, you're the only one who pointed out a problem. Everyone else seems to be capable of discussing the issue, while all you're doing is calling me a big fat meanie.

The observation was made to prove a point, and that point carries with it some important implications. If one has a problem talking talking about their relationships, then one should steer clear of using their personal relationships to make a point.

[QUOTE="surrealnumber5"]sorry but taking an observation and changing it into a ****battle between husband and wife is not right in any meaning of the word. taking a racist construct and twisting it into individual entitlement is not right, in no way is MrGeezer right here, he has done nothing but played the hate game for hates sake in order to get away from the actual point of the story.

MrGeezer

And over the last 20 or so posts, you're the only one who pointed out a problem. Everyone else seems to be capable of discussing the issue, while all you're doing is calling me a big fat meanie.

The observation was made to prove a point, and that point carries with it some important implications. If one has a problem talking talking about their relationships, then one should steer clear of using their personal relationships to make a point.

a racist policy is a racist policy, you want to make it about someone wanting more or wishing to take from others, you are not addressing the fact that it is a racist policy, i am not playing by your scapegoating rules so i must be the one not discussing the issue of basing the distribution of tax dollars based on race and sex. get real and stop the hate mongering it is pathetic

surrealnumber5

Saying "it's a racist policy" doesn't exactly bring up any solutions. You can spend all day saying that it's not fair, and then not bring anything to the table as far as what should be done about it.

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

[QUOTE="surrealnumber5"]sorry but taking an observation and changing it into a ****battle between husband and wife is not right in any meaning of the word. taking a racist construct and twisting it into individual entitlement is not right, in no way is MrGeezer right here, he has done nothing but played the hate game for hates sake in order to get away from the actual point of the story.

surrealnumber5

And over the last 20 or so posts, you're the only one who pointed out a problem. Everyone else seems to be capable of discussing the issue, while all you're doing is calling me a big fat meanie.

The observation was made to prove a point, and that point carries with it some important implications. If one has a problem talking talking about their relationships, then one should steer clear of using their personal relationships to make a point.

[QUOTE="rawsavon"][QUOTE="The-Apostle"]I support this because any law that tells people to consider race and/or gender is racist and/or sexist.The-Apostle

[QUOTE="surrealnumber5"]a racist policy is a racist policy, you want to make it about someone wanting more or wishing to take from others, you are not addressing the fact that it is a racist policy, i am not playing by your scapegoating rules so i must be the one not discussing the issue of basing the distribution of tax dollars based on race and sex. get real and stop the hate mongering it is pathetic

MrGeezer

Saying "it's a racist policy" doesn't exactly bring up any solutions. You can spend all day saying that it's not fair, and then not bring anything to the table as far as what should be done about it.

[QUOTE="surrealnumber5"]

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

And over the last 20 or so posts, you're the only one who pointed out a problem. Everyone else seems to be capable of discussing the issue, while all you're doing is calling me a big fat meanie.

The observation was made to prove a point, and that point carries with it some important implications. If one has a problem talking talking about their relationships, then one should steer clear of using their personal relationships to make a point.

Planet_Pluto

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"]

EDIT: So you're right, if we take what we considered 'excessive aid' away from one ethnic group, that does not mean that other groups should recieve that money in return. However, It only matters that people with the same qualifiactions and background recieves the same aid regardless of race.

MrGeezer

And see, that's the thing. Regardless of if it's "fair" or not, what's the point in me wanting someone else to lose what they've got just so that they've got the same as me? If it's not gonna benefit me either way, then why would I want someone else to lose their privileges just so I can say that me and them are equal?

Saying "it's a racist policy" doesn't exactly bring up any solutions. You can spend all day saying that it's not fair, and then not bring anything to the table as far as what should be done about it.

MrGeezer

I thought, based on common sense, that when something is unfair, it should be stopped. That's the solution.

I thought, based on common sense, that when something is unfair, it should be stopped. That's the solution.

airshocker

*shrugs*

I stopped caring about fair-for-fairness'-sake back when I was in third grade. I'm more interested in whether or not "fairness" actually helps or hurts anyone.

On the individual level, then yeah perhaps the man would rather his girlfriend or whatever kept her extra money rather than have it removed if no other alternative was possible. But this extra aid is always at the cost of somebody else such as taxpayers or other people who are denied that aid by the fact that it is all used up in strengthening certain groups. Aid doesn't come for free, it is always at the expense of somebody else.

MetalGear_Ninty

Suppose we do reduce financial aid for minorities in order to make everything fair.

Do we actually know where that money will then be going?

*shrugs*

I stopped caring about fair-for-fairness'-sake back when I was in third grade. I'm more interested in whether or not "fairness" actually helps or hurts anyone.

MrGeezer

That's sad to hear. Since this country should be based on fairness and equality.

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

Yes, in fact they are...there's a finite amount of financial aid to go around...

MrGeezer

EXACTLY.

Imagine a small scale version of this issue involving only two people. Imagine it's a couple with identical academic qualifications. The husband gets x amount of money in financial aid, and the wife gets twice as much because she's a minority. Assuming that the amount given can't increase (after all, there's a finite amount of financial aid to go around), then you can only keep that amount of financial aid constant by taking from one person and giving to someone else.

Here's the thing...even if we establish that my wife is getting too much money in financial aid, that doesn't mean that I should get the difference.

What? That makes absolutely no sense. It seems like you're having an extremely difficult time grasping this fairly simple concept.

And way to skip the rest of my post...seriously...you lost. You have no argument.

[QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"] On the individual level, then yeah perhaps the man would rather his girlfriend or whatever kept her extra money rather than have it removed if no other alternative was possible. But this extra aid is always at the cost of somebody else such as taxpayers or other people who are denied that aid by the fact that it is all used up in strengthening certain groups. Aid doesn't come for free, it is always at the expense of somebody else.

MrGeezer

Suppose we do reduce financial aid for minorities in order to make everything fair.

Do we actually know where that money will then be going?

suppose we give tax money to the KKK and black panthersto support racism..... they will be better off.

surrealnumber5

What is your weird fascination with animated duck signatures? :P

[QUOTE="surrealnumber5"]

suppose we give tax money to the KKK and black panthersto support racism..... they will be better off.

airshocker

What is your weird fascination with animated duck signatures? :P

daffy reminds me of my self when i was a young animated duck.

surrealnumber5

Daffy is pretty awesome. I think my favorite animated show was the mighty ducks. Something about ducks playing hockey was just awesome.

suppose we give tax money to the KKK and black panthersto support racism..... they will be better off.

surrealnumber5

Right. Because giving money to kids to get an education is the same as funding hate groups. :roll:

[QUOTE="surrealnumber5"]suppose we give tax money to the KKK and black panthersto support racism..... they will be better off.

MrGeezer

Right. Because giving money to kids to get an education is the same as funding hate groups. :roll:

hmm it's certainly an interesting point. I actually think woman don't belong in that category since they aren't a race, but a gender.

I'm surprised that I wasn't massively offended at this. However since it's working to actually stop a form of racism I can't really complain.

I say we do it reverse. Let's make it so white kids get more financial aid. What do the minorities have to complain about? No money is being taken from them. Right, MrGeezer?

This is the same concept I tried to lay out for you in my other post, but you conveniently ignored it so I felt it necessary to post it again, this time in a more direct way.

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

[QUOTE="surrealnumber5"]suppose we give tax money to the KKK and black panthersto support racism..... they will be better off.

surrealnumber5

Right. Because giving money to kids to get an education is the same as funding hate groups. :roll:

Furthermore racially it still helps minorities seeing as minorities such as blacks and latinos are getting hit hard with the unemployment and are poorer disproportionately compared to whites..

What? That makes absolutely no sense. It seems like you're having an extremely difficult time grasping this fairly simple concept.

And way to skip the rest of my post...seriously...you lost. You have no argument.

SpartanMSU

The thing is, it's NOT a simple concept. If you think that it's not fair for someone to get financial aid based on race or sex, fine. What I DON'T see is anyone talking about how to do away with it. The comments I'm seeing are no more substantial than saying "we should bring about peace in the world".

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

What? That makes absolutely no sense. It seems like you're having an extremely difficult time grasping this fairly simple concept.

And way to skip the rest of my post...seriously...you lost. You have no argument.

MrGeezer

The thing is, it's NOT a simple concept. If you think that it's not fair for someone to get financial aid based on race or sex, fine. What I DON'T see is anyone talking about how to do away with it. The comments I'm seeing are no more substantial than saying "we should bring about peace in the world".

One thing we can do is a huge overhaul of the education system.. We should not have falling apart and failing schools within poor innercity areas, yet have prestine brand new schools that are well staffed in rich suburbs when it comes to public schooling.. Some people suggest the voucher program, but I honestly never seeing that working.. Every voucher program such as the suggestion for Social security had seniors only getting a fraction to what they were currently recieving.

lol, people are so goofy to jump on anything race related that pharmaceutical companies are frightened to release all the race related drugs that are more effective to certain groups in fear people will freak out about it.

the companies are all "hey here is a drug that targets african americans heart disease or asthma in hispanics." and bleeding hearts are all "omg! don't give it to them! it's racist!!"

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

What? That makes absolutely no sense. It seems like you're having an extremely difficult time grasping this fairly simple concept.

And way to skip the rest of my post...seriously...you lost. You have no argument.

MrGeezer

The thing is, it's NOT a simple concept. If you think that it's not fair for someone to get financial aid based on race or sex, fine. What I DON'T see is anyone talking about how to do away with it. The comments I'm seeing are no more substantial than saying "we should bring about peace in the world".

I say we do it reverse. Let's make it so white kids get more financial aid. What do the minorities have to complain about? No money is being taken from them. Right, MrGeezer?

This is the same concept I tried to lay out for you in my other post, but you conveniently ignored it so I felt it necessary to post it again, this time in a more direct way.

SpartanMSU

You want to give white kids a ****load of money for being white, go right ahead. Of course, there's still the question of where the hell we'd get the money from. But hell...if we had the money to spend, then hell yeah give it to white kids to go to college. Why would I have a problem with that?

One thing we can do is a huge overhaul of the education system.. We should not have falling apart and failing schools within poor innercity areas, yet have prestine brand new schools that are well staffed in rich suburbs when it comes to public schooling.. Some people suggest the voucher program, but I honestly never seeing that working.. Every voucher program such as the suggestion for Social security had seniors only getting a fraction to what they were currently recieving.

sSubZerOo

I agree that the education system needs to be overhauled.

All I'm saying is that before I see a single ****ing penny taken away from minority's financial aid, I want to know where that money's going. Are we talking solely about aid that comes from taxes? Or are we talking about legislation that makes it illegal for private groups to give aid on the basis of race/sex? There are a hell of a lot of questions that nobody's asking.

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

What? That makes absolutely no sense. It seems like you're having an extremely difficult time grasping this fairly simple concept.

And way to skip the rest of my post...seriously...you lost. You have no argument.

MrGeezer

The thing is, it's NOT a simple concept. If you think that it's not fair for someone to get financial aid based on race or sex, fine. What I DON'T see is anyone talking about how to do away with it. The comments I'm seeing are no more substantial than saying "we should bring about peace in the world".

You do away with it by not doing it...pretty simple really...

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

One thing we can do is a huge overhaul of the education system.. We should not have falling apart and failing schools within poor innercity areas, yet have prestine brand new schools that are well staffed in rich suburbs when it comes to public schooling.. Some people suggest the voucher program, but I honestly never seeing that working.. Every voucher program such as the suggestion for Social security had seniors only getting a fraction to what they were currently recieving.

MrGeezer

I agree that the education system needs to be overhauled.

All I'm saying is that before I see a single ****ing penny taken away from minority's financial aid, I want to know where that money's going. Are we talking solely about aid that comes from taxes? Or are we talking about legislation that makes it illegal for private groups to give aid on the basis of race/sex? There are a hell of a lot of questions that nobody's asking.

Private institutions can do whatever they want. We're taling about Affirmative Action here, a government sponsered program...

You're making this out to be a lot more complicated than it really is.

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

One thing we can do is a huge overhaul of the education system.. We should not have falling apart and failing schools within poor innercity areas, yet have prestine brand new schools that are well staffed in rich suburbs when it comes to public schooling.. Some people suggest the voucher program, but I honestly never seeing that working.. Every voucher program such as the suggestion for Social security had seniors only getting a fraction to what they were currently recieving.

SpartanMSU

I agree that the education system needs to be overhauled.

All I'm saying is that before I see a single ****ing penny taken away from minority's financial aid, I want to know where that money's going. Are we talking solely about aid that comes from taxes? Or are we talking about legislation that makes it illegal for private groups to give aid on the basis of race/sex? There are a hell of a lot of questions that nobody's asking.

Private institutions can do whatever they want. We're taling about Affirmative Action here, a government sponsered program...

You're making this out to be a lot more complicated than it really is.

Affirmative action should have its requirements broadened to economically struggling people now.. To completely eliminate it would basically a kick inthe nuts for the American dream of equal opportunity, regardless how one wraps it up there is no equal opportunity for the lower class people born into bad areas.. This is merely a bandaid.. Now I would love if we actually fixed the problem to what programs like Affirmitive action was put in for.. Til then I think it a necessary band aid, one that would be more effective if it were done on economic standing now rather than racial.

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

What? That makes absolutely no sense. It seems like you're having an extremely difficult time grasping this fairly simple concept.

And way to skip the rest of my post...seriously...you lost. You have no argument.

SpartanMSU

The thing is, it's NOT a simple concept. If you think that it's not fair for someone to get financial aid based on race or sex, fine. What I DON'T see is anyone talking about how to do away with it. The comments I'm seeing are no more substantial than saying "we should bring about peace in the world".

You do away with it by not doing it...pretty simple really...

.. This would solve nothing because the problem it was trying to lessen is still there..

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

The thing is, it's NOT a simple concept. If you think that it's not fair for someone to get financial aid based on race or sex, fine. What I DON'T see is anyone talking about how to do away with it. The comments I'm seeing are no more substantial than saying "we should bring about peace in the world".

sSubZerOo

You do away with it by not doing it...pretty simple really...

.. This would solve nothing because the problem it was trying to lessen is still there..

What? I'm not saying do away with financial aid, I'm saying do away with it BASED ON RACE/SEX. If anything it should be based on economic reasons, not the color of your skin or what's between your legs.

A rich black kid should not get more points over a poor white kid. How the hell is that fair?

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

You do away with it by not doing it...pretty simple really...

SpartanMSU

.. This would solve nothing because the problem it was trying to lessen is still there..

What? I'm not saying do away with financial aid, I'm saying do away with it BASED ON RACE/SEX. If anything it should be based on economic reasons, not the color of your skin or what's between your legs.

Yeah I agree completely with that, especially the fact it would still help minorities because they are disportionately poorer then caucasions either way.

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

One thing we can do is a huge overhaul of the education system.. We should not have falling apart and failing schools within poor innercity areas, yet have prestine brand new schools that are well staffed in rich suburbs when it comes to public schooling.. Some people suggest the voucher program, but I honestly never seeing that working.. Every voucher program such as the suggestion for Social security had seniors only getting a fraction to what they were currently recieving.

SpartanMSU

I agree that the education system needs to be overhauled.

All I'm saying is that before I see a single ****ing penny taken away from minority's financial aid, I want to know where that money's going. Are we talking solely about aid that comes from taxes? Or are we talking about legislation that makes it illegal for private groups to give aid on the basis of race/sex? There are a hell of a lot of questions that nobody's asking.

Private institutions can do whatever they want. We're taling about Affirmative Action here, a government sponsered program...

You're making this out to be a lot more complicated than it really is.

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

What? That makes absolutely no sense. It seems like you're having an extremely difficult time grasping this fairly simple concept.

And way to skip the rest of my post...seriously...you lost. You have no argument.

sSubZerOo

The thing is, it's NOT a simple concept. If you think that it's not fair for someone to get financial aid based on race or sex, fine. What I DON'T see is anyone talking about how to do away with it. The comments I'm seeing are no more substantial than saying "we should bring about peace in the world".

One thing we can do is a huge overhaul of the education system.. We should not have falling apart and failing schools within poor innercity areas, yet have prestine brand new schools that are well staffed in rich suburbs when it comes to public schooling.. Some people suggest the voucher program, but I honestly never seeing that working.. Every voucher program such as the suggestion for Social security had seniors only getting a fraction to what they were currently recieving.

Private institutions can do whatever they want.

SpartanMSU

How can you say that about changes that haven't even been made yet?

[QUOTE="SpartanMSU"]

Private institutions can do whatever they want.

MrGeezer

How can you say that about changes that haven't even been made yet?

You asked what should be done. I told you...

:roll: